Talk:Divisions of the Carpathians

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[edit] English names

Hi Juro, this is an enormous list you've made! I have some suggestions:

  • the links should be to English names, and if they don't exist, at least the generic names (vrchy, vrchovina, kotlina, góry, podolie, munţii) should be translated, and adjectives like Kremnické and Turčianska converted to the proper names (Kremnica, Turiec). The local names belong in the article of the specific range, they make this list too messy.
I know, but I think, this list simply must be "messy", especially because it is long and must contain many countries (non-messy is the list in the main article and lists for possible separate articles for Western Carpathians etc.). Originally, I wanted to make a list of English names and add the original names in bracket, but this is mostly impossible. Especially, almost all mountain ranges crossing borders have different names in the various countries (and are cosidered "different" ranges by the respective countries, which causes many problems) and many times several ranges and groups have the same name when translated (e.g. there are 3-4 "Eastern Beskids"). In addition, generally accepted English translations do not exist in most cases. The authors of the lists I have used probably also always come to the same conclusion, because they also give the original names (and sometimes only add "Mts." / "Basin" etc. in bracket). What I expect to happen now is that people add English names in brackets or use the original names directly for smaller ranges, and we will see then - in any case, the original names are the only "correct" names we have for now. But I can add the "Mts." / "Basin" etc. remarks for each name of course, if you want.
You're probably right that there are several possible translations for many ranges. Still I think we should try to find good English names for each range. Actually, it's not so problematic for most ranges, many are straight-forward like White Carpathians and Bükk.
OK, but still, I just do not "feel well" when I have to "invent" English names. As an example, Malé Karpaty is translated as Little Carpathians or as Lesser Carpathians. The latter seems to be more correct (because it is not so straight-forward), but I do not know which one is used , say, in English textbooks for geologists. On the other hand, a wrong translation is probably better than no one...Juro 16:59, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Little C. would be closer to Slovak I guess. For instance Britannica uses Lesser Caucasus for Maly Kavkaz, but Little Carpathian Mountains (at least in the online article about Bratislava). It doesn't really matter, if someone thinks a range should have another name they can move it.Markussep 21:44, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
I am going to translate them then.Juro 22:13, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
You might find this to be of interest: GEOnet Names Server . Little Child 05:59, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
About Malé Karpaty again: it should be Little. You use Lesser when you distinguish between two similar items or groups, see for instance Sunda Islands. That's not the case here (there are no "Greater Carpathians"). Markussep 18:08, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Some specific translations: the Czech UN list gives "mountains" or "highland" for "hornatina" and "hills" or "hilly country" for "pahorkatina". I'd prefer highland for hornatina and hills for pahorkatina, hilly land sounds a bit silly. And I couldn't find the name "Niederösterreichische Inselschwelle" anywhere, but I have found the name "Waschbergzone" for these ranges (see de:Weinviertel, it includes the Leiser Berge, Falkensteiner Berge, Staatzer Klippen). Piedmont makes me think of Italy, but apparently it is a common geographical term. The Czech UN list says "slopes" for podhůří. I don't prefer "Silesian Slopes" to "Silesian Piedmont". It's obvious enough that it's not the Silesian part of Piemonte.
First, all the hornatinas etc. are very strictly defined in Czech and Slovak (at least), therefore it is actually important to use exact translations. I thought the UN list is somehow well prepared, but it contains several errors and when you take the Slovak list (which is also on-line) they give completely different translations for the same words than the Czech list - so the translations there are just arbitrary. "Highland" or "mountains" are both wrong and already used for other words. Hills could work, but it sounds too general compared to the specific "pahorkatina" (literally appr. "very-small-mountains-country/formation"). Therefore I would prefer Hilly Country (or Hills if you find that strange as well). And hornatina actually means "mountainous(-like) country/formation", therefore I would prefer Mountainous Country. As for Inselschwelle, I have omitted –berg-. Still, I know that this is not a very common name, but my list contains it and I do not know how I could verify whether it is fully identical with the Waschbergzone (and actually the "–zone" indicates that it is a wider term).
Possibly there are more terms for mountains etc. in Slovak and Czech than in English, than it's not surprising that some English terms have more than one Slovak equivalent. You see how unnatural the literal translations are. I prefer Hills to Hilly Country, I think "hilly" sounds silly. Niederösterreichische Inselbergschwelle: no idea if it is commonly used in geology. Swell is not the right translation for Schwelle, it means barrier, threshold. Could you cite the reference for the division? Markussep 17:04, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
You will find (this) "Inselbergschwelle" (once) in a professional text in Google. The book is a Czech book, so the title will not help you much, but it contains a detailed list of books used for every mountain system, including several Austrian books for the Carpathians. Secondly, despite your impression, "hilly country" and even "hilly land" are correct professional terms according to dictionaries, but I will use Hills. Thirdly, in our context Schwelle means swell (i.e. actually a barrier) because I have found it in a dictionary as "(orogenetics:) swell". The word is unusual in German as well.Juro 18:01, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
OK about hills and swell. I didn't mean I want to read that book myself, but I think we have to cite our references, so others can check it, and also because of copyright. As you see I started rearranging links. I invented another term for the Mátra-Slanec area because that seems smaller than what is meant here (from Börzsöny to Slanec). What is Cerris? Maybe "Cserhát" shouldn't be translated. Markussep 09:40, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Another word for cerris is turkey oak. Cserhát means "turkey oak forest", I found cerris better.Juro 13:05, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
About Mátra-Slanec: are you mad??? That's the offcial name, you cannot just invent names as you like...Juro 13:08, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
I have checked your changes, I will have to change most of them. The "+" symbol has a particular meaning, namely that many border mountains are considered different ranges and have to have separate articles. There are not many cases like Bíle Karpaty/Biele Karpaty which can be considered one range. Juro 13:17, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Hold your horses, I'm not mad, maybe clumsy sometimes. I'll revert Mátra-Slanec and the "+"'s I deleted. Cerris: that's apparently the Latin name. I think, like Goat Ridges, it shouldn't be translated, but we can add turkey oak forest as literal translation. Aren't the Slovak Zemplín mountains the same as the Hungarian Zemplén/Tokaj mountains? Markussep 13:34, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
The names in that area have changed several times, hence the misunderstanding. They are closely related, but are not the same. Juro 17:30, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
HEY Why did you revert ALL my edits, including the correct ones? Don't you see that this way it stays a very uninviting list? Shall I explain again what I was doing?
  • headings as simple as possible, no local names (they go under the heading, so they don't show in the table of contents). Why would we need South Moravian Carpathians and Austrian-South-Moravian Carpathians when it's obviously one area?
There is no "as simple as possible", the list must be correct above all. If something has two scientific designations, then we have to mention them both. That fact that you "can think" what the other name is, is not enough - other people cannot and do not understand the languages. As I already said, when there are several names and you put the translation below the title, it is not clear which translation refers to which name, and in addition the text below the title looks like a kind of "error". The translations I have put below the titles are those referring to the highest level and at the same time not identical with the English name.
Aren't we supposed to present a coherent division here? If I understand it correctly, the area considered here covers parts of Lower Austria and Southern Moravia. The Czech term covers only the Czech part, so it doesn't describe the area. If there is no geological reason to split the area, the Czech term is simply incorrect for this area.
I am sorry, but now I really have to laugh. Look at the map of European mountains, you will find a lot of such "wrong" names. There is no rule saying that a geological name must equally allow for all the countries and formations involved, and it almost never does. But above all, why are you telling this here ? - write a letter to Czech geologists, for example, we are not those who are supposed to decide which names are "wrong".
You're not really suggesting that "Jihomoravské Karpaty" also includes the hills in Austria, do you? I suspect it's just a part of the geological area which we could call Austrian and South Moravian Carpathians. Am I right? This would be information to go into a small paragraph under the header: "the Czech part is referred to as Jihomoravské Karpaty". Not in the header itself.
Of course it also refers to the Austrian part - this is the name of the geological area (or subprovince or whatever) and those do not end at state borders - only mountains do. Juro 19:28, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
  • for the subdivisions first the English name, then the local names in italics between brackets, no links. You did it like that for some of the ranges, but switched halfway the list
I did not finish with the list, as I already said in edit summary
  • About literal translations like Logwood mountains, Beech mountains, turkey oak etc., no link on those, only a note, like it was (... literally: Beech Mountains).
But before, we had Beech Mountains only.
? I don't know who did that, it's certainly not my idea to translate names like that. It feels like calling Mont Blanc "White Mountain".
This is a very bad example, because names of single mountains are usually not translated, while those of ranges are (provided they are "generic" names). For example Rocky Mountains is translated in all languages I know. The point in translating ranges is to prevent the impression that there is a village, mountain or river called (in this case) Bükk in the mountains. But I will add literally then.
"Munţii Retezat" would be translated from Romanian as "Cut-off Mountains". :-) bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 11:44, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
And in Dutch slang "very drunk (rete-zat) mountains" ;-) Markussep 12:49, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Another bad example, Rocky Mountains is not translated in Dutch, Danish and German (not even "Mountains"). It's a difficult point. Translating Belaya river to White River looks very odd, cases like Schwarze Elster/Black Elster are less clear.
The correct German name is Felsengebirge, but the name is usually not translated at all...But that does not matter, of course it is a difficult topic...
  • Where exactly are the Zemplín mountains?
At the H-SK border at Slovenské Nové Mesto
But that's right next to the Zemplén mountains! Are you sure they're geologically separate?
I am 1000 percent sure :-). Do you think I have not noticed the similarity?
  • Aren't the Bukovské vrchy named after the Veľky Bukovec peak, so they should be called Bukovec Mountains? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Beech Mountains would be something like Bukové vrchy. Markussep 17:47, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
I do not know, I only found the buk ethymology on an (unprofessional) web page, it could be wrong. The adjective from Bukovec is rather Bukovecký, theoretically also Bukovský. Also, I found that a part of the Bukovské vrchy is called Bukovce - another possibility (I do not know which name is the older one). But, were is that Veľký Bukovec?? Juro 18:52, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Isn't Bukovce the plural of Bukovec? Veľký Bukovec is a 1012m peak between the villages Nová Sedlica and Runina, about 5 km from Poland and 10 km from Ukraine.
It is the plural, but that is irrelevant here (the question was whether it should be Bukovec Mountains or Bukovce Mountains). Let'us use "Bukovec Mountains", because now I have found that there is both a Bukovec mountain and a Veľký Bukovec mountain, moreover there is a small Veľký Bukovec range, a small Malý Bukovec range, and one half of the mountains is called Bukovce. So, there is a lot of Bukovecs there to justify that name...
  • Your comment: "I think we should keep this [the local names in the headers, M.] up, because unless one speaks the languages one can only guess which translation refers to which original name". I think people would only know the original names if they spoke the languages, and then they would be capable of inventing the English names themselves. The translations are very close to the literal translations of the names. And, they can always search for the original name in the text.Markussep 18:33, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
I am afraid I do not understand what you mean, not all translations can be guessed. But if you insist we can just keep the translations below (although it would be still useful to know the countries for the English names at least)Juro 18:55, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
I think it's a good idea to keep the country codes in the headers. The local names and alternative names can go into a very short info paragraph under each header. For now I'll wait until you're done. Markussep 19:47, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
And, don't you think it's better to put the links on the English names, with the local names in italics behind them? Markussep 08:19, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
First, the English name is still not sure in many cases and second as I have already explained we have several cases with one English name for several foreign names, so at least in these cases the foreign names should be primary, because they are different from each other. I could add links to the English names of course, but I thought that it would not look well...Juro 14:00, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
The link should be to the location of the (future) article. For the ambiguous cases (Western/Eastern Beskids is the main problem I think) we'll have to think of something. The rest is not so difficult, I'll leave the hardest ones for you. Markussep 17:04, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
OK, but not right now.Juro 18:28, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

About Malá Fatra and Veľká Fatra, I thought "Lesser Fatra" and "Greater Fatra" would be the best way to translate them, but according to Google "Small Fatra" and "Big Fatra" are much more common. And surprisingly Mala Fatra is much more used than Small Fatra (diacritics included, I looked for english language, but I guess about 20% is in Slovak anyway).

Great : Greater : Big : Velka = 97:87:961:829
Little : Lesser : Small : Mala = 171:168:557:9230

Encarta calls it Lesser and Greater Fatra, GNS gives Lesser Fatra Mountains, but no translation for Veľká Fatra. Lesser and Greater sounds more scientific, we can use that and redirect from other versions once the articles have been made. Markussep 10:34, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I have used Lesser/Greater, haven't I? The fact that you have found Small and Big in Google prooves nothing, because even the best Slovak translator would "automatically" use such translations (because there is virtually no dictionary containing the names of mountain ranges). BTW, the GNS page, which one would expect to be a "serious" one, is a good example of the chaos in this field, some names are translated, some not, in some countries they translate everything, in other countries nothing, there is no system in the translation etc...One cannot trust anyone nowadays.Juro 15:22, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

No, you had "Great" and "Lesser", but I corrected it. About GNS, I also found several weird inconsistencies for Greek cities and rivers. Markussep 15:52, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Maps

  • this article really needs a map, or several maps for each major division. I wouldn't really know how to start, maybe first a map of the whole Carpathians with the major divisions, national borders, main rivers and cities.
Go on then. If you want to include all ranges, you could assign a number to each range and insert it in the map.
I made this map:
I don't have the right software to put decent text into it. I think I got the divisions right, I did only the main ones: outer western C, inner western C, outer eastern C, inner eastern C, southern C, western Romanian C and Transylvanian basin.
Some remarks: (1) I believe you should better take shades of one colour for both the Outer Western and the Inner Western Carpathians. The same applies to the Eastern Carpathians. (2)In Romania, the western "border" of the Apus Mountains and the Poiana Rusca does not correspond to our list, because the list also includes the various depressions there. So (hard to express that in words) try to "fill in" the "holes" in the western border (in other words there should be more or less a line without "holes" between Oradea and the Banat Mountains). (3) I would add the Serbian Carpathians. Even if they are sometimes left out, it is interesting to know where they are (they are e.g. in the Britannica map - to the south of the Danube)
Outer/inner and shades: OK, that's easy, and a good idea. Western border of Apuseni and Poiana Rusca: the depressions you mention are called Câmpia de Vest or Câmpia Tisei (Western plains or Tisa plains) on my map, are you sure that's part of the Carpathians? Serbian Carpathians: most sources I know say the Carpathians end at the Danube. I'll have to check where exactly these ranges are.Markussep 21:44, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
I am sure because I noticed that some of them are sometimes left out already when preparing the article, and I have a map. In our list they are called Dealurile Crisene (i.e. the easternmost Körös Valley, Crisul Negru Valley and Crisul Alb Valley), and Podisul Lipovei + Culoarul Bega-Timis + Dealurile Carasului (these are between Zarand, Poiana Rusca and the Banat Mountains).
I see what you mean now, for instance the hills north of Lugoj. I will add them. About Serbian Carpathians, I can't find the ranges on my maps. Do you mean the mountains north of the line Parain-Zaječar? Markussep 18:08, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
The borders are (it's a kind of "V" shape):
  • north: Danube
  • east: where mountains end to the east of the Velika Morava river
  • south: Nišava river
  • west: appr. Beli Timok river up to Zaječar, and then where mountains end to the west of the Danube
Done. Annotated version: Markussep 11:56, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
It seems to be OK to me now.Juro 21:09, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Local names

OK, I will see what can be done.

P.S: I have noticed this i/a problem when writing the list. Is that a change in Romanian writing rules or why is it so? Juro 20:10, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

It was changed after the fall of communism, see Romanian alphabet.

I'll be happy to help on these points. Markussep 7 July 2005 19:52 (UTC)

[edit] Translation of generic geographic terms

brázda (CZ, SK): furrow (gap)
câmpia (RO): fields
chrbty (SK): ranges
culoarul (RO): gap
dealurile (RO): hills
depresiunea (RO): depression
dolina (PL, SK): valley
dombság (HU): hills
góry (PL): mountains
hegység (HU): mountains
hora (SK): mountain
hornatina (CZ): mountains, highland
hory (UA): mountains
kotlina (PL, SK): basin
karszt (HU): karst
kras (SK): karst
les (CZ): wood, forest
łańcuch (górski) (PL) : (mountain) range
masyv (UA): massif
medzihorie (SK): highlands
mezihoří (CZ): highlands
munţii (RO): mountains
obcina (RO): ridge
oblasť (SK): area, region
obniżenie (PL): depression
pădurea (RO): forest
pahorkatina (CZ, SK): hills, hilly country
planina (SK): plateau
planina (Srb.): mountain
podolie (SK): ?
pogórze (PL): foothills
rohy (SK): horns?
rów (PL): gap
vrchovina (CZ): highlands, uplands
vrchy (SK): mountains

Markussep 9 July 2005 10:22 (UTC)

What is the source of these translation? Because there should be an official translation list fof geogr. terms from each country delivered to the UN. Juro 9 July 2005 19:10 (UTC)

just dictionaries. I don't know about UN lists. Markussep 00:58, 10 July 2005 (UTC). Ah, I just found the Czech list and [the Hungarian list!
What is the next higher page ("geoinfo")? Because I can only find the UN statistics page, but I do not see there links to geographical names or so.Juro 17:01, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I think the UNGEGN (United Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names) is part of the UN statistics division. The site is not so user-friendly (no list of documents with geographical terms), you can try the search option. Markussep 21:44, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Is there a difference in meaning of the words medzihorie/mezihoří and stredohorie? You have used "lower highlands" for medzihorie and "medium mountains" for stredohorie. Do they both mean something like German "Mittelgebirge" (500-1500 meters elevation, like Harz, Schwarzwald, Sauerland), or is medzihorie more like a (lower mountainous) area between other, higher mountains? I wish there was a good translation for Mittelgebirge, Highland (geography) and Upland (geology) seem to come closest. Markussep 09:33, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

  • stredohorie = (appr. at least) Mittelgebirge = Medium Mountains (the opposite of high mountains/veľhory and low mountains)
  • medzihorie = (acc. to the Slovak UN list) Lower Highlands = (literally) "inter-mountains", which I understand as you, i.e. as a (lower mountainous) area between other, higher mountains, but I am not sure, because I have seen it in the name of the one mountain range only.Juro 13:48, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Romanian

I do not speak Romanian, nevertheless I have the following questions:

1. Is obcina really the general term for "ridge"? I thought it was a special name only for those three mountains.
According to the dictionary it is a general term [1]
2. Why do we use adjectives in the English translation in selected cases (Apuseni instead of Apus, Calimani instead of Caliman etc.)? I know that people use to do this, but that's only because they do not know the basic forms.
"Căliman" is indeed the basic form , but "Călimani" is always used in plural form.
"Apuseni" is the plural of "Apusean", meaning "Western". "Apus" only means "West". And the mountains are the "Western Mountains", not the "West Mountains". bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 14:26, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
OK Thanks. Juro 17:30, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
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