Talk:Dinosaur

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Archives:

Archive 1 (up to July, 2004): bird descent, adaptability/extinction, old talk, reptile vs dinosaur, etc.
Archive 2 (up to October, 2005):bird descent, creationism, extinction, etc.
Archive 3 (up to 18 January, 2006):bird descent, creationism, extinction, etc.
Archive 4 (up to 25 April, 2006):lead section, religious perspectives, gallery section and more
Archive 5 (up to 19 August, 2006):creationist issues, article tweaks, semi-protection and more


Folks - Please sign your messages with ~~~~. Please also try to add appropriate section headings if you are beginning a new topic of discussion. Please add new discussion to the bottom of the page. - UtherSRG 12:19, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Archived talk

To preserve the intelligibility of conversation here I have once again moved older discussions on this page to the archive (Archive 5 linked just above). Killdevil 18:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Feathered dinosaurs section

Killdevil -> I somewhat shrunk this section because I find it is becoming rather long and messy: it looks like a list of unrelated news events which have been independently added each time a fresh research news was available. In my opinion this section should be rewritten in a more concise way and the detailed information should be found on separate pages such as Feathered dinosaurs or Dinosaur-bird connection. (Currently, whole paragraphs are duplicated with some inconsistencies). So in short: I did not delete information but moved it to more specialized pages. --Ollivier 17:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Snippets in contention

Some bits of text I have some problems with:

"Dinosaurs were an extremely varied group of animals; according to a 2006 study, 982 dinosaur species have been identified so far, and 1,844 species are believed to have existed."

I checked the refs and altered the numbers and ranks accordingly because in the state above it doesn't make much sense regarding my knowledge of the subject.

"The first direct evidence of herding behavior was the 1878 discovery of 31 Iguanodon dinosaurs which perished together in Bernissart, Belgium, after they fell into a deep, flooded ravine and drowned."

I was under the impression that the skeletons accumulated over time. IIRC there were at least two levels of skeletons in the Bernissart coal mine. After a bit of searching I found this pertinent article:

  • Johan Yans, Jean Dejax, Denise Pons, Christian Dupuis, Philippe Taquet. Palaeontological and geodynamical implications of the palynological dating of the wealden facies sediments of Bernissart (Mons Basin, Belgium). C. R. Palevol 4 (2005) 135–150.

The meat of it is in French so I'll have to work a bit disentangling the relevant bits of text. I can tell one thing for sure: It wasn't a ravine where the Iguanodon fell but one of the many sinkholes existing in the area at the time. Come to think of it, it stands to reason it should be so, as usually a ravine has a way out: downstream.

"Also among the earliest dinosaurs was the primitive Lagosuchus"

I'm pretty sure Lagosuchus isn't a dinosaur, though a dinosauriform, and not even a particularly well defined genus. Barring the likely chance "dinosaur" is being used a shorthand for anything ornithodiran more closely related to Dinosauria I'd propose Marasuchus for the place and that it'd be stated that it is a close relative of dinosaurs.

Oh and let it be know that the edit made on the article by User:193.136.225.26 is mine and that it is related with this post. I like to preview a lot and I do have to go to the men's room on occasion ;P Dracontes 10:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Good stuff. Killdevil 05:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Feathered Dinosaus: Ceratosauria or Tetanurae?!

Both of these groups are theropods. Both are classed as their own distinct lineages. Yet both contained feathered representatives. And it is almost (though not entirely) certain that feathers evolved only once. What gives?. Do the feathered creatures fall under one clade or the other?. - 03:31, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for an answer. I expected this page to have higher web traffic. Anybody reading this, please leave at-least a comment. - 01:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Did I miss a new discovery? (Serious question, not sarcasm.) As far as I know, no ceratosaurians have been discovered with feathers. Carnotaurus is the only ceratosaurian I know of that has preserved integument, and it seems to have had scales. With that limited evidence, it would appear that only the coelurosaurs had feathers.
But even if it turns out ceratosaurians had feathers too, Coelurosauria and Ceratosauria are sister clades, so it would just push back the origin of feathers to their common ancestor. Some have suggested that feathers arose at the base of Theropoda, or Saurischia, or Dinosauria, or even earlier.
Cephal-odd 04:32, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong, but last I heard Alvarezsaurs were classed as ceratosaurs. - 15:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course I could be wrong; that was a long time ago, on an old book. I would have to check the Ceratosaur clade once more. - 16:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, alvarezsaurs are not considered ceratosaurs anymore. Either they appear as birds in cladistic analyses, or as more basal theropods, but always within Coelurosauria (sometimes close to ornithomimids). --Ollivier 21:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

OK. I can't remember any other potentially feathered ceratosaurs. I guess that answers my question. - 21:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I just noticed a mistake in my last post; the sister clade of Ceratosauria is Tetanurae, not Coelurosauria. But all the known feathered dinosaurs appear to be coelurosaurs, even the forms like Sinosauropteryx that only have fuzz-like proto-feathers.
Cephal-odd 05:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Just to clarify, Alvarezsaurus was thought to be a ceratosaur before intermediates like Patagonkus showed that it was a more primitive relative of Mononykus, which at the time was thought to be an avian (and still might be by a few people). There's lots of reason to think that ceratosaurs did not have feathers. I personally doubt that any non-coelurosaur did, or that even all coelurosaurs necessarily did.Dinoguy2 02:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Erect gait; warm-blooded dinosaurs

Re erect limbs (under "Other shared anatomical features"), reptiles with sprawling limbs can move about as fast as similar-sized mammals with erect limbs. The main advantage of erect limbs is that they eliminate Carrier's Constraint (new article needed), so that the animal can breathe efficiently while moving. This gives animals with erect limbs greater stamina than animals with sprawling limbs.

Re dino metabolism, a lot of the bone structure and soft tissue evidence is ambiguous and / or disputed. For example some of the bone structre features are found in a few cold-bloded reptiles and not in some mammals. And the specialist paleontology sites are full of debates about whether some fossilised features represent e.g. 4-chambered hearts or just artefacts of the fossilisation process.

In my opinion the best arguments for "warm-blooded" dinos (i.e. metabolic rate comparable to that of mammals of similar size) are:

  • limb posture
  • Antarctic dinos
  • dino growth rates

Sprawling limbs are efficient for a creature that spens most of its time flopped on its belly and only moves for a few seconds at a time, because they minimise the costs of getting up and lying down but make the animal subject to Carrier's Constraint. Erect limbs are the opposite - they avoid Carrier's Constraint, but increase the costs of of getting up and lying down (in mammals, which mostly have very flexible backbones, they also pump the lungs when running; but most dinos had short rigid backbones, like birds, so would not have enjoyed this additional advantage) - so erect limbs are a disadvantage for a sluggish animal and an advantage for an active animal. In addition, dinos were fundamentally bipeds, and bipedalism makes getting up even more laborious as it removes the option to get up one end at a time (as cows do). So I think erect limbs + bipedalism indicates an active lifestyle and high metabolic rate.

Dino fossils have been found in areas which were within the Antarctic Circle during the Mesozoic and show signs of having had regular frosts. Cold-blooded reptiles can only survive frost by burrowing and hibernating, but the fossil dinos were fairly large by modern standards and we've found no evidence of burrowing dinos. So it appears dinos could generate adequate heat in these conditions, which indicates a high metabolic rate.

Studies of T Rex' lifecycle (e.g. http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1067, http://www-geology.ucdavis.edu/~cowen/HistoryofLife/CH12.html, http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/0505/0505_feature.html, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15347508&query_hl=1) indicate that it grew in 3 stages: (a) slow growth up to 1 ton weight at about age 10; (b) rapid growth to 5-7 tons at about age 16, an average increase of a ton per year(!); (c) negligible growth after that. Stage (b) indicates a fast metabolism - compare with crocs, which take 15 years to reach sexual maturity and a lot longer to reach full size. I've seen no growth timescales for sauropods, but I've seen many arguments that they would have had to grow fast (at least at some stage), as their eggs range in size between a large melon and a basketball and most sauropods reached 30 to over 100 tons at maturity depending on species.

I've also just seen a paper (http://palaeo-electronica.org/1999_2/gigan/discus.htm) which argues that oxygen isotope ratios in the bones of adult T Rex and Giganotosaurus indicate a rapid metabolism but that this was achieved by inertial homeothermy (because distal bones show "cooler" isotope ratios). So it would be interesting to see whether there have been similar studies on smaller dinos (e.g. Velociraptor, ornithomimids). And of course inertial homeothermy would not have worked for juvenile dinos.

Wkipedia ought also to reference http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php?title=A_Reply_to_Ruben_on_Theropod_Physiology&printable=yes. This paper summarises and criticses Ruben's argument that dinos lacked respiratory conchae (aka nasal turbinates), which since its publication in 1996 has been one of the most-quoted reasons for believing that dinos were ectothermic.

Philcha 17:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dino growth lifecyle

Just found http://www.physorg.com/news73665780.html, in which the researchers say that their lifecycle data on Albertosaurs does not suggest super-fast growth in the teenage years.

BTW I also wrote the last post ("Erect gait; metabolism"), but forgot to sign it.

Philcha 18:01, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Diagnostic traits of dinos

The article wrongly says "Dinosaur synapomorphies include: ... reduced number of digits on the pes (foot) to three main toes ...". I've just Googled for "dinosaur foot pes toes digits" and got several pages which contradict this, including "Ceratopsians usually have a blunt 4-toed pes and 5-digit manus" (http://palaios.sepmonline.org/cgi/content/full/17/4/327). The same search revealed pages which suggested that theropods and ornithopods independently evolved 3-toed feet. Paul's "Predatory Dinosaurs of the World" says that staurikosaurs and herrerasaurs were 4-toed (1st page of ch 3). The prosauropod Anchisaurus appears to have had 5 fingers and 5 toes (http://www.palaeos.com/Vertebrates/Units/330Sauropodomorpha/330.100.html#Anchisaurus)

I've even found (via Google for "dinosaur foot pes toes digits") pages that suggest that the perforate acetabulum (the holy of holies - groan!) was not a dino synapomorphy but the product of convergent evolution - e.g. http://www.palaeos.com/Vertebrates/Units/340Theropoda/340.100.html#Herrerasauridae, http://www.palaeos.com/Vertebrates/Units/330Sauropodomorpha/330.100.html (comments on Saturnalia - a good name for something that throws doubt on a central dogma).

The only list of synapomorphies I can find that does not rely on perforated acetabulum is http://dml.cmnh.org/2000May/msg00268.html - can anyone do better?

Looks like basal dino cladistics is in turmoil and this section will need regular checking against new discoveries.

Philcha 18:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

You are basically right; however, remember that the fact that some groups have more than three toes doesn't necessarily imply that the possession of three toes wouldn't be a synapomorphy. That only becomes clear once the larger picture is taken into account. Likewise the fact that Saturnalia has a semi-perforate acetabulum can only be significant within a full cladistic analysis. Nevertheless I get the distinct impression the terms "apomorphy" and "synapomorphy" have been confused.--MWAK 12:40, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
MWAK, I agree that "the fact that some groups have more than three toes doesn't necessarily imply that the possession of three toes wouldn't be a synapomorphy", as having more toes could be a secondary characteristic. But the most basal dinos we know of (staurikosaurs and herrerasaurs) were 4-toed, and that shows that in the present state of our knowledge having only 3 functional toes is not a synapomorphy.
The semi-perforate acetabulum of Saturnalia could also have been a secondary characteristic. But "secondary characteristic" is a non-parsimonious explanation with no supporting evidence in this case, and it's safer to admit that Saturnalia has confused a situation that used to be regarded as clear. Until further research clarifies the situation Wikipedia should not claim that a fully perforated acetabulum is a synapomorphy.
Philcha 12:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
The toes are of course listed by mistake, presumably because they from an apomorphy. Also we should be careful not to return to the discarded concept of the "key synapomorphy". So it would be best to give a complete recently published list. The Dinosauria comes to mind. It would of course be even nicer to have a separate article desribing the full development in the last twenty years. :o)--MWAK 07:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] some phrases that don't make sense to me

I'm writing here rather than fixing them because I'm not sure what they're trying to say, so could only remove.

  • "Not including modern birds like the bee hummingbird, the smallest dinosaurs..." seems to be saying that the bee hummingbird is a dinosaur. I'd guess the phrase before the comma should be removed, but maybe there's a reason to reference the bee hummingbird?
  • "Dinosaurs (including birds) are archosaurs..." seems to say that birds are dinosaurs. Is this a reference to ornithischians? If so, define the term first and then use it. As a casual reader, I see birds and think of modern birds which are not dinosaurs or archosaurs as far as I know.
  • "Most reptiles (including birds) are diapsids..." seems to say that birds are reptiles. Again, is this a reference to ornithischians? Or perhaps modern birds are also diapsids?

Ingrid 17:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

So, I followed a few more links and find out that birds are archosaurs. Does this mean that they are considered dinosaurs? Or is the point that dinosaurs and birds are both archosaurs? Ingrid 17:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
To quote this article:
There is an almost universal consensus among paleontologists that birds are the descendants of theropod dinosaurs. Using the strict cladistical definition that all descendants of a single common ancestor are related, modern birds are dinosaurs and dinosaurs are, therefore, not extinct. Modern birds are classified by most paleontologists as belonging to the subgroup Maniraptora, which are coelurosaurs, which are theropods, which are saurischians, which are dinosaurs.
So, yes: birds are "avian dinosaurs". -- ALoan (Talk) 17:23, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
And archosaurs and diapsids and reptiles. And ornithischians have nothing to do with it.--MWAK 12:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Should there not be a short sentence explaining that birds are archosaurs and are therefore considered to be modern dinosaurs? For those people who don't already know this fact it would certainly avoid some confusion...--Greebo cat 16:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two stupid sentences

While many mainstream scientists respect these views as faith positions, they argue that religiously-inspired interpretations of dinosaurs do not withstand serious scientific scrutiny. See the referenced article for specific examples and further context.

The first sentence says that religious views on dinosaurs don't agree with scientific views (using clumsy and vague weasel language, too), and the second says "see main article". Both are entirely redundant. If nothing substantial can be written in this section, I suggest just moving the link to the "See also" section. Fredrik Johansson 06:32, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I feel that this section is totally OK. It is important subject to be mentioned in article plus it give reader brief explanation of what is ref article about. And, you forgot to site first sentence;) TestPilot 17:49, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
See the archives for an extremely lengthy discusson of how to handle mentions of religious positions in this article.Dinoguy2 18:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not complaining about the section's existence. What I'm saying is that the two quoted sentences are poorly worded and redundant. Let's break it down:

  • Various religious groups have views about dinosaurs that differ from those held by scientists. - this is fine.
  • While many mainstream scientists respect these views as faith positions - this is irrelevant. The topic is what some religious people think of dinosaurs, not what scientists think of faith. But there is really no information at all in this sentence, just vague weasel language. Who are these "many scientists"? What about those who think differently? There are probably "many scientists" who don't respect faith these faith positions.
  • they argue that religiously-inspired interpretations of dinosaurs do not withstand serious scientific scrutiny - implied by the first sentence; hence redundant
  • See the referenced article for specific examples and further context. - already implied by "main article" link. Either Wikipedia should put "see article for more information" after every link, or it doesn't need to be done anywhere. I'm for the latter.

In this case, no text is better than poor text. If someone can expand the section with non-vacuum language, that is of course better, but then do it. Fredrik Johansson 12:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite it then, and we'll see if it's any better. John.Conway 08:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Ah, now I see why this article is protected.--71.194.243.97 05:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Heh, you should read the archives ::) Dinoguy2 13:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Censorship protest!

Why there is no mention of the "Jesus horse" phrase? It is a matter of fact that America has powerful sectarian groups that want to demote dinos to fit their seventh day flat earth agenda. The article should have a section explaining religio-political controversy about dinos and mention the Jesus horse. It is unacceptable to censor wikipedia articles just to hide american stupidity! 195.70.48.242 08:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

You're probably trolling, but there is an article on religious perspectives on dinosaurs. Also, the phrase doesn't appear to be very common, or notable. John.Conway 11:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Isn't the whole "Jesus horse" thing from an SNL skit? Probably only worth a mention on a pop culture section of the dinos and religion article, if anything.Dinoguy2 22:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Only boys like dinosaurs?

Dinosaurs have become a part of world culture and remain consistently popular, especially among young boys. This was changed from children to young boys. My problem is that there are many young girls that enjoy learning about dinosaurs and i fail to see the reason for the change. If any evidence can be provided that this edit was justified then by all means, change it back but as it is-i've left it at children. Greebo cat 01:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I strongly support Greebo cat's position on this, it's popular with "children". --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 00:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed , but I think it's even better without the especially..., everyone likes dinosaurs (and I'm not just being facetious, I think it's true). John.Conway 11:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Changed to adults and children alike-unless someone else has a better idea as to how to put it? Would welcome suggestions...Greebo cat 18:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad someone has their "thinking hat" on; I just smacked myslef in the head with a "D'oh! Why didn't I think of that?" Good move! --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 18:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Especially does not mean only.--Emcee2k 05:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

No, but especially does imply that more of the specified group have an interest in the subject than other groups which is unsourceable (if that's a word!) and unlikely to be true. A huge number of adults are interested in paleontology which is demonstrated by the popularity of the dinosaur article and it's wide range of editors so i think it's best left as it is at the moment-as long as that's the general concensus? (don't want to be seen as a little wiki hitler or anything!) Greebo cat 13:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Extinction of dinosaurs

This should be almost entirely removed, as there's a more complete page about the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event:

  • The "dinosaurs" page is pretty long anyway, so there's no room here for a through analysis of the extinction.
  • The K-T extinction is complex - other groups died out or suffered heavy losses at the same time, but some groups survived very well.
  • At present the "dinosaurs" page gives too much prominence to the Alvarez impact hypothesis - it's a good theory, but by no means the only one.

Philcha 00:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

As per my answer below, this section should also stay. This is only an overview & may alter the article seriously if it is removed. Spawn Man 01:33, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why were the latest dinosaurs all so large?

The "dinosaurs" page should try to explain why the late Maastrichtian fossils were all pretty large - the smallest appear to have been Troodon and pachycephalosaurus. This is relevant to the extinction mystery - no purely land animals bigger than cat survived. If there had been small predatory dinosaurs in the late Maastrichtian, I'd have expected some of them to have survived by eating invertebrates and small mammals. Philcha 00:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

While there were many large dinosaurs during the Maastrichtian, there were small ones, too. Small dinosaurs from that stage include: Struthiosaurus (7-8 ft long), Adasaurus (8 ft), Noasaurus (8 ft), Microhadrosaurus (8-9 ft), Anserimimus (12 ft), Ornithomimus (12 ft), Gallimimus (13-20 ft), Quilmesaurus (16-20 ft), Dryptosaurus (20 ft), Indosuchus (20 ft), and one of the smallest sauropods, Magyarosaurus (20 ft). Best wishes, Firsfron of Ronchester 02:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Not to mention the birds. Most small animals seemed to have survived, on sea, land, and air (the small pterosaurs had all diappeared gradually for millions of years before the K/T, only azhdarchs were left at the end), while most big things died.Dinoguy2 01:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, guys, but the examples you quote are only "small" relative to other dinosaurs, but much larger than the purely land animals that survived the K-T extinction. The questions behind my question were - I should have made them explicit - : (A) Were there any cat-sized or smaller dinosaurs, especially at the very end of Cretaceous? (B) If none, why not? (C) If there were, why did they not survive the K-T extinction? Their food chain would have been detritus-based rather than photosynthesis-based, and they would have required less food to maintain a viable population.Philcha 18:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Warm-blooded?

The "warm-bloodedness section should be almost entirely removed, as there's a more complete page about the Warm-bloodedness of dinosaurs. Philcha 00:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed the main article is more comprehensive. However, the section here on Dinosaur is only an overview of what the article says. Also, the section was one that helped get Dinosaur to FA status, & its dleetion may cause it to be removed & even stripped of its title as a FA. Thanks, Spawn Man 01:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
While it would normally be a valid concern related to overall article size, keep in mind that this is a parent-article with many children. In this case it's actually reasonable and proper to give significant coverage to important sub-topics, along with links to the relevant Main Article. Dinosaur is indeed an FA, and any changes should be carefully considered in terms of how they will affect that. Article stability is a very desireable goal once this level is achieved :) Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 01:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I must agree. This article is linked to from around 3,500 other articles; it's a high-profile area, and the article needs to be complete and cover all major topics, even if there's an article which covers the topic more in depth. Also, one of the reasons it was made a Featured Article is because many editors felt the content was consistent, complete, and well-balanced. Moving out entire sections just doesn't make a lot of sense at this point. Best, Firsfron of Ronchester 01:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Many of the subheadings in this article also have larger, more in-depth articles attributed to them. So, at what point do you stop cutting out content because it can be found elsewhere on wikipedia? I think the section is entirely necessary and adds a great deal to the article. After all, when you ask for information about dinosaurs, surely you expect to get a comprehensive account of all aspects of the subject? (obviously without going into unecessary detail but still, there's a fine line between too much and not enough...) Greebo cat 02:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Dinosaurs and man coexisted

I believe there is a large amount of evidence pointing to dinosaurs and man coexisting. I think this information should be included in the Wikipedia article:

- Trained scientists reported seeing a dinosaur.[1]

- 1,000 people had seen a dinosaur-like monster in two sightings around Sayram Lake in Xinjiang accrording to the Chinese publication, China Today (see: Lai Kuan and Jian Qun, ‘Dinosaurs: Alive and Well and Living in Northwest China?’, China Today, Vol. XLII No. 2, February 1993, p. 59.) [2]

- An expedition which included, Charles W. Gilmore, Curator of Vertebrate Paleontology with the United States National Museum, examined an ancient pictograph that pointed to dinosaurs and man existing [3][4]

- The World Book Encyclopedia states that: "The dragons of legend are strangely like actual creatures that have lived in the past. They are much like the great reptiles [dinosaurs] which inhabited the earth long before man is supposed to have appeared on earth. Dragons were generally evil and destructive. Every country had them in its mythology." [5]

- The Nile Mosaic of Palestrina, a second century piece of art, appears to be a piece of artwork that shows a dinosaur and man coexisting. [6]

- On May 13, 1572 a dinosaur may have been killed by a peasant farmer in Italy (pg 41 "The Great Dinosaur Mystery" by Paul Taylor ISBN 0-89636-264-7) [7]

- It has been stated that dinosaurs are in the Bible. [8][9][10]

- There is other evidence that dinosaurs and man coexisted. 136.183.154.15 02:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, none of the sources you cite would be considered reliable for purposes of a science article. If you can find similar info from an actual scientific journal or scholarly publication, that would be considered a reliable source. Thanks for taking an interest in the article, but we really can't include unsubstantiated assertions in an encyclopedia. If you have other questions about reliable sources, you might review WP:CITE, WP:VER, and WP:SOURCE. These policies explain the issues involved in detail. Doc Tropics 02:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The World Book Encyclopedia was cited an it is a credible source. I would also point out that that trained scientists have reported seeing a dinosaur. Thirdly, the Nile Mosaic of Palestrina is a widely known and notable piece of artwork and I can assure you that the photo was not altered. Here is another source which could be checked: "The Illustrated London News of February 9, 1856 (p. 166) reported that workmen digging a railway tunnel in France last century disturbed a huge winged creature at Culmont, in Haute Marne, while blasting rock for the tunnel. The creature was described as livid black, with a long neck and sharp teeth. It looked like a bat, and its skin was thick and oily. It died soon after. Its wingspan was measured at 3.22 metres (10 feet 7 inches). A naturalist ‘immediately recognised it as belonging to the genus Pterodactylus anas’, and it matched the remains of known pterodactyl fossils." [11] How would one get an old copy of the Illustrated London News? 136.183.154.15 03:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The World Book Encyclo. reference is in relation to Dragons, not Dinosaurs, and the specific source you cited for it was actually creationscience.com, not the World Book itself. In fact, reviewing your refs in detail, they are all from answersingenisis.com, creationscience.com, creationism.org, and similar Creationist websites. As I said before, none of these would be considered reliable references for this article. Doc Tropics 03:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Seconded. Firsfron of Ronchester 03:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The World Book Encylopedia says that dinosaurs are strangely like dinosaurs. Second, we don't have to cite the creationist sources we can site the original sources like World Book, China Today, and the book by the biologist Roy P. Mackal (Roy P. Mackal, A Living Dinosaur? In Search of Mokele-Mbembe, E.J. Brill, Leiden, The Netherlands, 1987). Lastly, I still haven't received a valid objection why the Nile Mosaic of Palestrina can't be used. Are you saying this famous piece of artwork was altered by the creationist website? 136.183.154.15 03:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


I believe that at this point your questions have been given a satisfactory answer; indeed, they have been given all the answer they deserve. Since you will doubtless not ever be persuaded by reason, there is little point in continuing the discussion. I will put this as simply as I can, in order to avoid any possible confusion:

What you have proposed is utter nonsense. It will not be included in the article. Doc Tropics 04:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Doc Tropics, if we use the non-creationist sources like China Today, World Book Enycyclopedia, and a famous piece of art these should be considered reliable sources. Could you please explain why the Nile Mosaic of Palestrina can't be used? There are no controversies that this famous piece of art was forged. 136.183.154.18 04:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
All of these seem to be more relevant to the Cryptozoology article than to the dinosaur one as it also involves prehistoric animals which are not necessary dinosaur such as the above mentioned pterodactyl (a pterosaur) and the Loch Ness monster (that most cryptozoologist described as a possible plesiosaur). At most, we could just add a sentence that there are claims that dinosaurs have survived the K-T extinction and link to the crytozoology article. ArthurWeasley 04:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
There's already a link to Religious perspectives on dinosaurs. Honestly, there's no reason to link to multiple rejected theories on dinosaurs; one is quite enough. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I also found some other info which might prove useful: "Scientists in the former Soviet Union have reported a layer of rock containing more than 2,000 dinosaur footprints alongside tracks “resembling human footprints.”1 (Alexander Romashko, “Tracking Dinosaurs,” Moscow News, No. 24, 1983, p. 10). [12]136.183.154.18 04:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Ken! You aren't supposed to edit when you are blocked. Guettarda 05:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

  • NOTE: User:136.183.154.18 has been blocked as an account of previously blocked User:kdbuffalo. Similar edits initiated from this IP range can reasonably be deleted-on-sight. Doc Tropics 10:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, you'll never believe this. Here's his Illustrated London News cite:

"Very Like a Whale"- A discovery of great scientific importance has just been made at Culmont (Haute Marne). Some men employed in cutting a tunnel which is to unite the St. Dizier and Nancy railways, had just thrown down an enourmous block of stone by means of gunpowder and were in the act of breaking it to pieces, when from a cavity within it they suddenly saw emerge a living being of monstrous form. This creature, which belongs to a class of animals hitherto considered extinct, has a very long neck, and a mouth filled with sharp teeth. It stands on four long legs, which are united together by two membranes, doubtless intended to support the animal in the air, and are and are armed with four claws terminated by long and crooked talons. Its membranous wings, when spread out, measure from tip to tip 3 metres 2 centimetres (nearly 10 feet 7 inches). Its colour is a livid black; its skin is naked, thick, and oily,; its intestines only contained a colourless liquid like clear water. On reaching the light this monster gave some signs of life, by shaking its wings, but soon after expired, uttering a hoarse cry. This strange creature, to which may be given the name of living fossil, was brought to Gray, where a naturalist, well versed in study of palaeontology, immediately recognised it as belonging to the genus Pterodactylus anas, many fossil remains of which have been found among the strata which geologists have designated by the name of lias. The rock in which this monster was discovered belongs precisely to that formation the deposit of which is so old that geologists date it more than a million of years back. The cavity in which the animal was lodged forms an exact hollow mould of its body, which indicates it was completely enveloped with the sedimentry deposit -Presse Grayloise

...That last sentence speaks for itself, no? Are we realliy supposed to believe that it was entombe ofr millions of years, but CAME BACK TO LIFE ON EXCAVATION?!!?!? BWAHAHAHA! - Adam Cuerden, currently logged off.

I saw that movie. It sucked (personal opinion only, no cite). Reign of Fire. KillerChihuahua?!? 15:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
You beat me to the punchline, Killer Chihuahua. Firsfron of Ronchester 16:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Weel, this is the 1856 Reign of Fire (the modern one is a remake, except this one, like the original Amnityville Horror is claimed to be true. Where do they getting this stuff, then? Charles Fort? Adam Cuerden talk 16:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm just glad I'm not the only one who thought this was a total crock! Doc Tropics 17:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha! Creationists are doomed if they keep in relying on stories like this. Here's an actual explanation for the hoax: [13]. In the original version, the pterodactyl crumbled to dust conveniently leaving no evidence. Note that there is no such species as Pterodactylus anas and anas is the latin for duck, which translates to 'canard' in french (in english this means 'an unfounded, false, or fabricated report or story') ArthurWeasley 18:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally, i think that whoever 'ken' is should be unblocked and allowed to go on with his crusade-i live for reading this kind of pap. He's making me laugh anyway-even if he is blocking up the talk page with unscientific, ridiculously sourced creationist rubbish. Yay for crazy people... Greebo cat 19:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, what his assertions lack in factual data, they make up for with their entertainment value. Doc Tropics 19:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hip-problem

Isn't it a bit weird that meat-eating dinosars were descendants to birds, when they belonged to the order Saurischia? Perhaps they evolved a bird-hip when they evolved into birds? It's always disturbed me. Were dinosaurs like Archaeopteryx and Microraptor bird-hipped or lizard-hipped?! And how the fuck could anyone write that dinosaurs and humans coexisted?! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.181.53.36 (talk) 15:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

"Ornithischia" and "Saurischia" are just names, don't lose sleep over them. And yes, Archaeopteryx and Microraptor and other dromaeosaur-type dinosaurs evolved a backwards-pointing pubis just like the "ornithischians". Actually if I recall correctly the situation in birds and closely-related theropods is a bit different than in your so-called "bird-hipped" dinosaurs - the little feathery guys actually turned their pubic bones backwards, while the big herbivores just made theirs short and grew a big backwards-pointing projection on them. Kotengu 17:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, a better name for Ornithischia would be Pseudoornithischia, "false bird hips". Don't get me started on on Theropoda vs. Ornithopoda...Dinoguy2 21:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image?

We seem to have lost "Image:Eoraptor.jpg" in the "Evolution of dinosaurs" section; does anyone know what happened? Should this link be removed/replaced? If the image was deleted for some reason, a replacement would be useful, but finding and licensing images is not one of my strong points. Perhaps someone could help with this?  : ) Doc Tropics 17:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The image was presumably deleted because it didn't contain enough information about where it came from. I replaced the image a few days ago with a new one, a result of the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Dinosaurs/Image_review page, where new dinosaur images are requested and reviewed. Feel free to make requests. Best, Firsfron of Ronchester 19:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Earliest Dinosaur

Every time I read something that has to do with Early Dinosaurs, people talk about Eoraptor, Herrerasaurus and even Coelophysis, but I've never heard anyone talk about Staurikosaurus. WHY?!. It lived far earlier than any of those other creatures, and I've only ever heard it stated as the earliest dinosaur in websites that deal specifically with it, not in websites that talk about the earliest dinosaurs. In-fact, where most sources state that Dinosaurs evolved in the Late Triassic, it is stated with staurikosaurus that it was a Middle Triassic dinosaur!. So why is there never any mention of it, yet there is mention of the others?!. And for the record, there have been recent discoveries about even earlier dinosaurs (prosauropods from Madagascar). And, though there is no discovered evidence for it and I am not a proffessional, I suspect that Dinosaurs actually evolved sometime in the Early Triassic. - 12:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure Staurikosaurus lived "way earlier" than Hererrasaurus, but you have a point. There is evidence for Anisian dinosaurs, and some folks think dinosaur origins go back even further. Still, our current article does state early dinosaurs have been found in the Middle Triassic. Firsfron of Ronchester 19:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Um... that article is incorrect. It lists Staurikosaurus as Middle Triassic (Carnian). It is Carnian, but Carnian is the Late Triasssic, same time period as Eo and Herrera. There's a new, possibly earlier dinosaur just announced, but it won't be published 'till next year. Dinoguy2 22:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Yup. Actually, there are several possible earlier dinosaurs: an "undescribed coelophysoid from the Ladinian" and an "undescribed herrerasaurid from the Anisian"[14] Not sure whatever happened to the undescribed saurpodomorph from Madagascar, though, that they indicated was earlier than anything else... Firsfron of Ronchester 22:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
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