Talk:Diana, Princess of Wales

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  1. February 2003 – August 2006

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[edit] Good Article nomination has failed

The Good article nomination for Diana, Princess of Wales has failed, for the following reason:

This article needs a work on its structure. For example, the lead section see WP:LEAD should be only two paragraphs long, the lineage section belongs as a part of her early life, etc. There are also very few references and those used are of secondary quality. I suggest much of the material in the lead be moved to the body of the article and citations from books and other print sources be added. --CTSWyneken(talk) 19:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Last Will and Testament of Princess Diana

We wish to advise everyone that we (the Living Trust Network) have a copy of Princes Diana's Last Will and Testament posted on our website, which we believe is of interest to anyone seeking information about the life of Princess Diana. We have also discussed our desire to post a link to Princess Diana's Last Will and Testament with Wikipedia administrators {See User talk:Livingtrust], either under "references" or "external links." Last Will and Testament of Princess Diana. Wikipedia does not object to the link but has requested that we not put the link up ourselves since we are a commercial website. Instead, it has requested that we make it known that the Last Will and Testament is available, and anyone who wishes to add the link to the "reference" section or the "external links" section may do so. So, we solicite your help in adding the link set forth above. Thanks. Livingtrust 03:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that the link to Princess Diana's will has been removed. I'm putting it back because I believe it provides a much needed service. 65.35.52.59 17:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Was Diana technically a princess following her divorce.

Please look the official British Monarchy web Page. In which is very clear that Diana, was still The Princess of Wales at the time of her dead. Look this The Princess of Wales had two sons. Prince William Arthur Philip Louis was born on 21 June 1982 and Prince Henry (Harry) Charles Albert David on 15 September 1984, both at St Mary's Hospital, Paddington, in London. The Princess had seventeen godchildren.

In December 1992 it was announced that The Prince and Princess of Wales had agreed to separate. The Princess based her household and her office at Kensington Palace, while The Prince was based at St James's Palace and continued to live at Highgrove.

In November 1995, the Princess gave a television interview during which she spoke of her unhappiness in her personal life and the pressures of her public role. The Prince and Princess were divorced on 28 August 1996.

The Prince and Princess continued to share equal responsibility for the upbringing of their children. The Princess, as the mother of Prince William (second in line to the throne), continued to be regarded as a member of the Royal family. The Queen, The Prince and The Princess of Wales agreed that the Princess was to be known after the divorce as Diana, Princess of Wales, without the style of 'Her Royal Highness' (as the Princess was given the style 'HRH' on marriage she would therefore be expected to give it up on divorce). The Princess continued to live at Kensington Palace, with her office based thereThis Part is taken from " http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page156.asp" This is because she got the title "The Princess of Wales" at the time she accepts The Prince of Wales in the ANGLICAN CATHOLIC MARRIAGE and in the United Kingdom you continued to be Married in Religion untill the dead of any of the parners. Another case in which you can see the samething is when Wallis Simpson married the Prince Edward she could not be Known as HRH so she was Known all her life during her marriage unitll her dead as only "WALLIS, DUCHESS OF WINDSOR" with this name she was also buired.

Following her divorce from the Prince of Wales, Diana became Diana, Princess of Wales without the style of Royal Highness. But what I am not clear about is whether or not she was still a princess. Letter patent issued in 1996 indicated former wives of princes would cease to be royal highnesses on divorce. It did not specifically state they would be cease to princesses. I believe there is a difference (HRH and title of prince/ess are two seperate entities) as Prince Phillip was originally created a Royal Highness and the Duke of Edinburgh but he was not a created a prince. The Queen recified this latter on when she specifically created him a prince of great britain. Any views or advice on this.

Diana was never a princess to begin with. She was a "Princess by marriage" as opposed to a "Princess of the blood" (as Princess Margaret was or Princess Anne is). Princess of the blood are the daughters of reigning kings or queens. Diana was only the spouse of a "Prince of the blood", so she technically was The Princess Charles, The Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, etc. For more information on this, check out the Wikipedia article British princess, it will give you more information on the subject. - Prsgoddess187 17:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course she was a princess. The fact that she was a princess by marriage rather than a princess by birth doesn't mean she wasn't a princess (hence the word "princess" in "princess by marriage"). Proteus (Talk) 18:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

It does not matter whether she was born a Princess or not. Princess Diana was a direct descendent of King Charles II and therefore had royal blood. Her family was also aristcratic and noble, which means they were of royal blood at some point in the past. While she was born without the title, she definitly was not a commoner.

Actually, technically, Diana was a commoner, ie not a royal. If you look at the various marriages of previous British monarchs, ie those who married spouses NOT of by-birth royal blood (as opposed to royal descent, which is another thing entirely -- me being a descendant of Charlemagne doesn't make me any LESS a commoner, sigh), the reaction against the non-royal spouse has always been of one of outrage (more or less) of their being of unequal rank, ie a commoner. See for example Henry VIII's marriage to the Lady Anne Boleyn, who, as a daughter of the recently ennobled Thomas Boleyn, 1st Earl of Wiltshire, held the same titular rank as Lady Diana Spencer prior to her marriage (yes, i know she was created a marchioness prior to her marriage, but she was still, for a brief period, an earl's daughter like Diana). Mowens35 20:37, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I think there is some confusion of what a commoners. The media usage of commoner tends to refer to someone who does not hold a title. However, the legal definition of commoner is who is not a Monarch or a peer. So, therefore technically The Earl Spencer was NOT a commoner as he was a peer. However, he daughter Lady Diana Spencer 'Lady' being a courtesy title as not a peerage is therefore a commoner.

You are correct Proteus, all I was trying to say is she was not entitled to the title of Princess Diana. Prsgoddess187 19:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I think we have established that during she a Princess albeit by marriage. However, following her divorce from the Prince of Wales was still technically a Princess. Letter Patent issued in 1996 clearly removed the style of royal highness but as for the rank of Princess it seems to be unclear. From reading various literate its seems that style of royal highness and the title of prince or princess seem to separate entities i.e. someone could be a royal highness but not prince or princess (as was the case of the Duke of Edinburgh who was created a duke with the style of royal highness but was not a prince. Separate Letters patent issued by the Queen later on elevated him to the rank of prince

I don't think she was a princess after her divorce. Since her new style was given on precedent of divorced peeresses, had she remarried it would have lapsed. So she would have become Mrs <husband's surname> and had no "princess" in her title. I also read somewhere that a divorced duchess, for example, is not entitled to hold the style "your Grace", because she no longer holds the rank of a duchess. If Diana gave up her HRH on divorce, surely she ceased to be a princess in the same way? Because surely, she could've been known as simply "The Princess of Wales" without the Christian name. So although Diana, Princess of Wales was styled as such she did not actually hold the title, or the rank that went with it. However it's confusing that the HRH was removed specifically - surely this would have been automatic? Perhaps this is because it is always explicitly used, where as "your Grace" isn't normally used that often .I don't think the palace themselves know!

I have an idea that "HRH" can only be given or revoked by the Sovereign and, having been specifically given, it was subsequently specifically revoked. - Kittybrewster 14:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Diana was not a princess after her marriage. She could not have been. Someone is a princess by either

  • birth (daughter of a sovereign, daughter of a prince of the blood, etc)
  • creation.

She was neither. She had the rank of a princess by virtue of her marriage in law to a prince. When they divorced she lost all the marital ranks that flowed from the fact of her marriage. She lost the rank of Princess. She lost her HRH style automatically. (She also lost custody of her children. The custody was granted to the sovereign as is legally required, but in reality the parents had non-custodial equal parenting rights.) The issue of the status of a divorced wife of a prince was explored in the UK when the issue arose over as to King Edward VIII's marriage to Wallis Simpson. Given Mrs Simpson's propensity for dumping husband, they presumed that she would in time divorce Edward too. The legal advice then drawn up (I think it was Walter Monkton who did the informal examining of the legal situation) was that Wallace would lose all status the moment they divorced. They nevertheless presumed that even if no longer entitled to be a HRH she would claim still to be one. So to make doubly sure they denied her that from the start. And to stop her being Princess Edward (which would have been her title, though much as people referred to a mythical "Princess Diana" some no doubt would call her "Princess Wallis") they made sure almost the moment that he had abdicated he would be made a duke, meaning that she would then be called a "duchess" not a "princess". Put bluntly, no Diana was never a princess. She had the rank of a princess for the duration of her marriage to a prince. It started the second they married and ended the second they divorced. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 16:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Err I think you're right on all counts there apart from the claim that she was "never a Princess". She was a princess during her marriage - as exemplified by the title "Princess of Wales" (am I correct in thinking this lapsed to a style rather than a title upon divorce). To the best of my knowledge as you rightly said someone is a princess by birth, creation, AND marriage. She was a princess during her marriage, but this ended on the moment of divorce since it was derived purely from her husband's title. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]).

Maybe I didn't explain the point I meant. (I think we agree, just are at cross purposes.) The point I was making was that there are two types of princesses:
  • Those who are princesses in a personal capacity — i.e., by (i) birth, or (ii) by creation.
  • Those who are princesses merely by someone else's status — i.e., those whose status is exclusively linked to being married to a prince.
The first type are life-princesses. It is their own personal status. The second are what could be called transient princesses. They have it purely by linkage to someone else. If that status ends (through death and remarriage; through divorce) or is deemed never to have existed (through annulment) they cease to have the status.
It is a matter of English usage whether one regards someone whose status in effect piggybacks on the back of someone else's status, as really a princess at all, or whether they are a full princess for the time of the marriage, whether it is for a lifetime or shorter. One indication might be the titles of various Princesses of Wales. Alexandra of Denmark, when married to the Prince of Wales (Prince Albert Edward, later Edward VII) was described as "Princess Alexandra" but not Princess Alexandra of Wales but Princess Alexandra of Denmark. Similarly Mary of Teck as Princess of Wales was called Princess Mary (or Princess May) but again it was as a princess of Teck, not Princess of Wales. Diana was never Princess Diana and Camilla is not Princess Camilla in contrast. In both cases they were not princesses by birth or creation, merely marriage, and that seems to give one a status as a princess, but not a title as Princess <own name>. (Similarly the HRH is not yours personally, but yours by marriage.)
It is a difficult thing to try and work out. I am sure Lords Chancellor could have great fun with it! My feeling, based on the language usage, is that Diana was never an actual princess, merely a princess-by-marriage. To use a marital example: being a woman's "mother-in-law" doesn't make you her mother. If the woman's marriage to your mother-in-law's son ends in divorce, you lose that status. But it never was a real mother/daughter relationship. In contrast, marital status has no impact whatsoever on a real mother/daughter relationship.
Being a princess is, in broad terms, akin to being a daughter. You have it. It is yours. It doesn't depend on changes in relationships. Being a princess-by-marriage is akind to being a daughter-in-law. It is a technical status that is purely reliant on a legal concept, marriage. In my reading, Diana herself did not have the status of a princess. She had a status of a princess only indirectly by virtue of marriage to a prince. So she was The Princess of Wales, not Princess Diana. But the moment that relationship ended with the divorce, its status, including that of princess, automatically ended. She was back reliant on her own status alone. And her own status did not include that of being a princess in her own right. (Unlike Alexandra of Denmark, or Princess Anne.) FearÉIREANN\(caint) 22:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Remember that she was quite a stickler when it came to proper usage, ie she was known to correct people (ie reporters, etc) who referred to her as "Princess Diana," which she, in fact, explained she was not. She was Diana, Princess of Wales, or, previously, the Princess of Wales. She knew the distinctions; would that more people editing her article would. Mowens35 13:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think you're right. I read somewhere that "Princess of Wales" like "Duchess of York" is simply the wife taking her husband's title. So all in all Diana was a princess by virtue of her husband. Though, how come the HRH had to be stated in letters patent? I think a lot of people are still also under the impression that her divorced title of Diana, Princess of Wales still meant she was a princess ... am I right in thinking it was simply a style? How come she didn't revert to Lady Diana Spencer or Lady Diana Windsor?

When Lady Diana Spencer Married the Prince of Wales she formally became Her Royal Highnes The Princess Charles, Princes of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Chester, Countess of Carrick, Baroness Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess and Great Stewardess of Scotland.

When The Prince and Princess of Wales Divorced, the Princess was stripped of her royal titles, that being Her Royal Highness The Princess Charles. The title Prince of Wales is regarded to a certain extent as a peerage, and as such the Princess was styled as the divorcee/widow of a peer: Diana Princess of Wales.

To answer the question above, the Princess of Wales was no longer a Princess upon her divorce to the Prince of Wales.

I would like to add one more point here since we are discussing the titles of Diana, Princess of Wales. Under English law, when the divorcee of a peer remarries she loses the right to style herself with her former spouses title, but this is not the case in under Scottish Law. Therefore, if the Princess of Wales did remarry she would no longer be able to style herself as Diana, Princess of Wales. As the Prince of Wales holds the title Duke of Rothesay in the Peerage of Scotland, Diana would be able to style herself as Diana, Duchess of Rothesay.

[edit] Edits by 68.250.71.178

I have amended these because I found them to be too slanted. That the failed all her O-levels twice needs citation. Re the ballerina, I don't think it was necessary to point out that the never trained. Perhaps if she had succeeded in remaining single for longer, she would have done. Re the phone calls, the word harassing is harsh and judgmental. Wikipedia should try to avoid such terms in biographies of living or recently deceased persons. The recipient probably found them harassing, but I do not think the intent to harass is verifiable. Viewfinder 02:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


Her Obiturary in the Guardian <http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,,768035,00.html> references the failing of the O-levels twice. Trishm 07:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by User:Lions gal 4eva

I reverted this because much of it duplicated information already in or linked to the article, and not all of it meets Wikipedia's verifiablilty standards. But imo some of it is OK and could be incorporated into the article in the appropriate places. Viewfinder 07:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title question

"During her marriage, her full title was Her Royal Highness The Princess Diana, Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland."

Shouldn't that read "During her marriage, her full title was HRH The Princess Charles, etc.," seeing how she was not a princess in her own right? StarNeptune 11:35, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it should be, and I have changed it back. She was never officially titled as Princess Diana. Prsgoddess187 12:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did she really attend Norland College?

There is an urban legend that before marriage to Charles, Diana trained as a nanny at the famous Norland College. Firstly, is it true that she ever trained as a nanny? And if so, where did she train and was it really at Norland College? Any references?SureFire 00:20, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Untrue - Kittybrewster 07:30, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

There were two questions. Which are you saying are untrue? Or both? Do you have a reference to back it up?SureFire 10:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Wiki policy is that there is no need to prove a negative. You have to provide sources for either of your contentions :) Alci12 21:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
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