Talk:Dhimmitude

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[edit] Uncredited Quote

"Dhimmitude is the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians. Dhimmis, "protected people," are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued" (Sura 9:29). This denial of equality of rights and dignity remains part of the Sharia, and, as such, are part of the legal superstructure that global jihadists are laboring to restore everywhere in the Islamic world, and wish ultimately to impose on the entire human race." i'm pretty sure I've read this as a quote of someone else. I'm not sure, just noting BelalHaniffa 04:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

You're right. I found this and some other passages in several places (e.g. here [1]). So I removed them. This article should be about the political neologism anyways, and not an in-depth essay about tax rates, the historical application of dhimma, or world domination stuff etc. Azate 13:06, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

How does one pronounce dhimmitude? Can we have some sort of indication within the article? --Hyphen5 03:13, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edited Misleading bernard lewis Quote

The full Bernard Lewis quote has been provided to correct the partial misleading quote.

[edit] Intro - Lewis quote

The intro per WP:Lead should touch the main points in this article. --Aminz 22:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The definition in the intro is this: "[Dhimmitude] is a characterization of non-Muslims as submitting to Muslim authority or intimidation." The definition Lewis used it this: "subservience and persecution and ill treatment." As you can plainly see, Lewis was not saying that "non-Muslims submitting to Muslim authority or intimidation" does not exist. Saying otherwise is either a poor understanding of the English involved or a bad-faith effort to push personal POV. Arrow740 10:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The other definition is also added. WP:Lead says: "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and describing its notable controversies, if there are any." --Aminz 07:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Lewis's opinion is just one among many others; pushing it into the lead is tantamount to giving it undue weight. Finallly, Aminz, please stop this obsession with Lewis. You keep inserting his quotes into the lead of each and every article you edit. Beit Or 07:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

It is also Mark Cohen's view. I am sure I can find more. The way to go is not to remove Lewis et al but to add more views. Even if it was only Lewis's view, it had a place in intro. --Aminz 07:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is your opinion that whatever everything positive about Islam Lewis ever said belongs in the intro of respective articles. However, this opinion of yours contradicts both WP:LEAD and WP:NPOV. Beit Or 07:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

We are concerned specifically with the concept of Dhimmitude here and quotes on this topic are relevant. Please find other sources and add them as well. Removing Lewis's view isn't the best way of achieving NPOV, if you believe there are really respected scholars who agree with Bat Ye'or. Honestly, I haven't seen any real source. --Aminz 07:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

This article is about a neologism rather than about a certain concept. Lewis's view was never removed; it's right there in the article. Beit Or 07:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

It has a meaningful reference. Per WP:Lead, negative or positive views should both be included in the intro. It is important to mention that for some scholars like Lewis this concept is a myth. --Aminz 18:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Again, the article is not about a "concept", but about a neologism. The intro does not discuss any "positive" views, only this word's origin and usage. Beit Or 18:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Neologism are important for the phenomenon, concept, whatever they refer to. As you said, the usage of the word is important and as far as I know it is used to refer to the alleged untollerant status of non-Muslims. It is used by Bat Ye'or in relation with her theories. Lewis's quotation is also providing information about the usage of term "dhimmitude". --Aminz 21:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
THe Lewis quote is good now where it is. not in the intro! Saying only he thinks its a myth is misrepresenting because hes saying also Islam as land of tolerance is a myth. SO putting the whole quote there is fine its not very long BUT if youre gonna paraphrase it try Lewis thinks the truth lies somewhere between these two extremes NOT 'Lewis calls dhimmitude a myth' which sound like hes endorsed the other myth.Opiner 18:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Right, we can add this is one the two myths and explain both ones. That's fine. --Aminz 21:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
It will be problematic for you to represent the Lewis quote accurately in the intro, because he says that the "myth" is partly true. Arrow740 23:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
He says there is some truth in every myth which is true, isn't it? --Aminz 00:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I have not examined them all. Arrow740 00:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok. This is Lewis's POV. We can mention this as well that both myths have also some elements of truth --Aminz 06:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you read the title of the article, after all? Beit Or 07:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Dhimmitude. What comes to my mind is that this term is invented by Bat Ye'or (though she says someone else first invented it) to refer to her idea of treatment of non-muslims. --Aminz 07:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Great. Now please read the rest of the article to find out that the term was coined by Bachir Gemayel. After you do so, please confine your edits to the discussion of this neologism rather than to miscellaneous unrelated "myths". Beit Or 07:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Bat Ye'or says someone else invented the word but she really gave its meaning to this term. WP:Lead says that the lead should touch all important points in the article. --Aminz 07:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Aminz. I thought were agreeing BUT now the reverting again! To the same mispresent I thought youre agreeing isn't fair. Its already being in the article in a fair form. why do you keep adding the misrepresent to the introduction?Opiner 07:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you present what Lewis says fairly please just to give me an idea of what a *fair* presentation is. --Aminz 07:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why not state what dhimmi means nowadays?

Dhimmi is a non muslim subjecting to the idears of a muslim. Dhimmitude is the behaviour of a non muslim subjecting to the idears of muslims.

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