Talk:Dhimmi

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[edit] one-sided, ahistorical, and clearly anti-Muslim

this article is hardly PC. I suppose that writing an article on the status of non-Muslims under Islamic rule in English requires that you rely on at least slightly biased sources, but Bat Ye'or is rabidly anti-Muslim and she is cited all over this article. There can be no pretenses of disinterested scholarship here. Most of the "factual" accounts of this article are isolated and mischaracterized events presented in a way to portray a consistent ill-treatment of religious minorities and to shock the reader. Telling is the fact that these are not the accounts of Muslim historians translated into English, rather they are orientalist scholars bent on portraying Islam in a negative light by selecting choice bits of arabic works and passing them off as a survey of Muslim sources. Despite these mischaracterizations of isolated events, none of them add up to Nazi genocide of Jews or South African apartheid or even the Spanish Inquisition, yet the editors of this page find it appropriate to approximate a thousand years of "protected status" (my preferred wording) to about a decade of genocide. It's completely illogical. The article should be rewritten completely to not include anything from Bat Ye'or. Even Bernard Lewis, often criticized for including anecdotes of Islamic history that do not portray Muslims negatively, is clearly biased, and should not be included in an encyclopedic article on the topic. At the very least, a subject as politically charged with such differing historical accounts as this should have as many historical accounts written by people with pro-Muslim agendas as historical accounts written by people with anti-Muslim agendas (Bat Ye'or & Bernard Lewis). Oizfar 21:13, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article is shamefully PC

With all due respect to scolarly intercourse, Dhimmi is one of the most horrible and damaging concepts developed by humankind. As a philosophy, Dhimmi is not different from the Nazi's view of everyone else as untermensch, and South African's aparteid. The only difference is that dhimmi has existed for over 10 centuries and has damaged numerous people and civilizations. Comparing to this, the Nazi Arians and the aparteid are just short blinks.

I come originally from Bulgaria, one of the Christian countries that existed and presevered for 500 years as part of the Ottoman empire. My grand-grand parents were dhimmis. Believe me, you've got it all wrong.

Bulgaria is a 1,300 year old country with rich history and culture. It is the birthplace of the Cyrillic aplhabet and much of the Orthodox Christiandom started there. All of this ended when the Muslims came.

There were MASSIVE forced conversions to Islam, which affected between 20% and 30% of the population (about a quarter of the modern territory of Bulgaria is still populated with the descendants of those people, who are still Muslims). Where do you think the Muslims in Bosnia and Albania came from? The vast majority of those were converted to Islam by force. In any of these countries you can still hear a large number of folk songs and tales that tell about the time of people were forced to "become Turks" by converting to Islam.

For the majority of the population, there were few choices. "Immigrating" away from the lands controlled by Islam was not an option - once you were counted for tax purposes, "running away" was a crime. People were hunted, cought, and beaten and shipped back as slaves. Living as a dhimmi meant living as a second-class person who can never feel safe or protect his wife and children from any action by any Muslim.

The prolonged existence as dhimmi under Islamic rule is one of the most damaging things that can happen to people. Take a look at the map of Europe - the poorest, worst adapted regions on that map, from Spain, through Sicily, to Albania, Bosnia and Bulgaria are all regions that have spent hundreds of years as dhimmi under Islamic rule. While most Eastern European countries have recovered completely from the communist rule in less than 20 years, the damage caused by Islam is still there hundreds of years later.

In your attempts to keep everyone happy, you are rewriting history.

Hi and welcome to editing this page. I'm sorry you feel that history is being rewritten. I'm also pleased to note you give respect to scholarly intercourse. Unfortunately, this talk page is not really the right place to argue the rights and wrongs of the dhimmi concept in general. Its purpose is to discuss how we can work together to improve the article. The article must be as objective as possible and drawn from reliable sources, which in this case means mainly from the works of academic historians. I'm sure everyone here will respect your knowledge of the history of Bulgaria. Does this knowledge give you any leads for history books/articles that cover the ground you have mentioned? Preferably but not necessarily in English? Thanks. Itsmejudith 12:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the anon in the opinion that this article does not represent Dhimmi as the weapon of Cultural imperialism that it is. No info is given about how many native cultures and languages where wiped out in North and East Africa. The way it grinds down the number of non-muslims in a given area with both CARROT(paying taxes but now getting services, being able to speak in your defence in court) and STICK (threats of both state and non-state violence). I can easily see that could be seen as Historical revisionism (negationism) by family of victims of this policy.Hypnosadist 17:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Hypnosadist. My problem with your argument and anon's is that it cuts across such a huge swathe of history. No doubt things were sometimes very bad. But at other times they was better. The paper by al-Qattan shows that in the period he was researching dhimmis were allowed to speak in their defence in court, indeed frequently chose to go to the Islamic courts for cases that could have been resolved in their own courts. I can myself see why the memory should still be preserved in this way in eastern Europe. But as an English person should I still harbour a grudge against the Scandinavians for their rape and pillage in the 8th-11th centuries? Or against the Germans because of the hardships they inflicted on us in the second world war? Itsmejudith 10:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Two major points, i'm not against the germans but i'm violently opposed to Nazism. Second "things were sometimes very bad" is the attitude i'm talking about. Also Dhimmi laws where still in effect well after the end of transatlanic slave trade, but i'd like you to say to a decendant of a slave that they shouldn't harbour a grudge (i wouldn't). AND the final point is this is not a historic concept but one that is still used in islamic law.Hypnosadist 11:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Things were sometimes very bad and somethimes things were very good. The muslim rule in Spain was even called a "golden age". Also see La Convivencia. Many Jews also found dhimmitude way better than living under Christian rule. // Liftarn
Agreed. Many Jews and Christians thrived within the dhimma. At other times nations exploited the dhimmi system to persecute minorities, no doubt. Bernard Lewis looks on the Dhimmi matter as something that was kind and tolerant at times, very much so when compared to what Christians did to Jews, heretics and Muslims. To some people, anything that doesn't condemn Islam completely is "PC". There were times when Jews considered their environment within Muslim nations as a shelter, relative to their treatment under catholics. Here's a historic event I'd say is notably worse than anything the Islamic empires ever produced: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition . Shams2006 15:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
1)Ah yes the standard arguement Christians are as bad (if not worse), me like most of the world, are not Christian so that is a meaningless statment. La Convivencia was the best culture in Europe at the time and joint with the Aztecs and Chinese on the world scale. Yet at the same time conditions in the Yemen, Sudan, India, Albania etc are much much worse for non-muslims. All i'm asking for is that Dhimmi is not only illustrated with the La Convivencia.Hypnosadist 16:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
2)The next bit of "logic" that living as a dhimmi was better than being killed by Catholics durring Spanish_inquisition means that it must of been good. No it allowed them a slightly better chance to survive, which the Jews wisely took.
3)A final bit of History, the Spanish_inquisition was a series of religously motivated murders, torture and other hate crimes affecting around 1 million people. It was brutal but in historical terms very short in comparison to the Arab slave trade that lasted 1400 years before being mostly stopped by Britain (and later other european powers) and involved a minimum of 25 million slaves. Hope that helps with worse events by Islamic empires. Hypnosadist 17:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The anon editor here saying that Dhimmitude was one of the worst events in history. If scholars characterize that same event as being considerate compared to what Christians did, then it can't really be that bad, can it? As someone said here, what Jews called the 'golden age' during the middle ages actually happened while they lived under Muslim rule. Slavery has existed since the first human settlements, and only started to be abolished in the early 1800s in England and France. Before then it was widely practiced in Europe, and was instrumental in Europe's development. In Africa, Muslims neither invented the practice, nor did they promote it. It was a pre-existing condition which they did not ban. Nobody banned slavery until the 1800s. The Spanish Inquisition was an example. Look at how Rome treated heretics and blasphemers. Check out an American meuseum on the torture devices that were employed to execute accused 'witches'. All I'm saying is that Dhimmi wasnt the monstrosity revisionist christians would say it was. Shams2006 01:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I am the former "anonimous" who started this thread. I would like to apologize for the overly emotional tone of my previous posting. Judging by some of the responses, I think I failed to make the main point I was trying to communicate, so let me try to clarify it briefly. (1) The issue at hand is, in fact, Dhimmi as cultural imperialism. It is about systematic attrition of all "other" cultures by the dominant Islamic culture. Today, there is a widespread consensus that cultural imperialism is wrong and damaging to its subjects no matter who is practicing it. (2) Whether other people (e.g. Jews in Spain) fared well or not under the Dhimmi system is completely off topic. With this kind of logic, one can argue that slavery in America was a positive and benign system - surely, a black slave fared much better with a white, well-educated and civilized american plantation owner than her sister who was a slave in Africa? You can easily see that this is a slippery slope. There are some things that are universally understood today to be bad - slavery, Nazism, and Communism are among them. My point was that Dhimmi belongs in the same set of "universally bad" systems. (3) Unlike Nazism, which is history, and Communism, which is almost history (if one doesn't count North Korea and Cuba), Dhimmi is the law of the land in every Muslim country today. How vigorously it is being enforced is not the point. The point is, over 1 billion people don't seem to see anything wrong in a system that divides it's subjects into classes based on their religion and culture. The issue with this article is not about facts - the facts are very well established - it is about moral relativism and reluctance to accept that some things in human history are plain bad. Plague, slavery, Nazism, Communism and Dhimmi all fall into this category. --Maverick61 21:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Dhimmi system has been abolished for almost 200 years, and isn't practiced any longer. Arguably Saudi Arabia might be considered to resemble that system, but even there the practices of collecting Jizyah etc no longer exists. Remember that Arabs aren't the only Muslims in the world, and even in the vast majority of the Middle East (Jordan, Syria, etc) Islamic shariah is no longer practiced. I'm afraid you're superimposing your knowlege of the Middle Ages on our contemporary world and applying stereotypes. This is ignorance. Particularly dangerous ignorance, considering this kind of thing has 25% of Americans believing all Arab-Americans should be put in internment camps (according to Discovery/NY Times polls) and 45% believe they all need to carry special identification cards.Shams2006 15:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Someone erased my post on this talk page. Either a dhimmi to be or a Muslim. I think that says a lot about what dhimmitude really means. The just of my post was that the Inquisition was a direct result of 700 years of colonial oppression of the Spanish people by Muslims. If you have a problem with the truths that I post then say it up front and don't cowardly erase my posts. If you are the one that did it then fess up.Cestusdei 22:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Talk pages, Wikipedians generally oppose the use of talk pages just for the purpose of partisan talk about the main subject. Wikipedia is not a soapbox; it's an encyclopedia. In other words, talk about the article, not about the subject. It's only the habits we encourage that keep Wikipedia from turning into a slanging match.
The purpose of a talk page is to help to improve the contents of the article in question. Questions, challenges, excised text (due to truly egregious confusion or bias, for example), arguments relevant to changing the text, and commentary on the main page are all fair play.
Please try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia. You can chat with folks on their user talk pages, and should resolve problems with articles on the relevant talk pages, but please do not take discussion into articles (i.e.Discussion forums). There are a number of early-stage projects that attempt to use a wiki for discussion and debate.
You may also assume good faith and avoid incivility. Cheers. -- Szvest 10:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

So if its just about talk why are both sides not removed? Hypnosadist 12:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you refer to Maverick61 in contrast? If yes than i invite you to have a look at Cestusdei's contribs and block log to have a clearer idea. Read the second comment of Maverick61 as well. -- Szvest 15:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that we should talk about the article, not the subject. My point was that in it's attempt to present "measured and balanced" information, this article has crossed the boundary between being objective and moral relativism. There is more than enough information to conclude that the Dhimmi system belongs to the same place in history as slavery, Nazism and Communism. Such conclusion is objective and not inflamatory. No American or German that I know would consider the above statements about slavery and Nazism insulting or inflamatory. History is what history is. Objectivity does not require lack of moral judgement.--Maverick61 02:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

In response to Shams2006 - Don't know about Dhimmi being abolished 200 years ago - it was in full force and effect in Bulgaria until 1878. Here is a good overview of the current state of affairs when it comes to the Dhimmi system:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=7995&sid=3857e31a06cd07991b145abbb9193fd2.

I fully agree with Shams2006 - the current wave of virulent Islam does not help to uphold the image of Muslims anywhere. The same happened to Germans after WWII. Germans solved the problem by completely denouncing Nazism and making sure that a thing like this can never happen again in Germany. Most people respect them for that.--Maverick61 02:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the blog mentioned above (faithfreedom.org) the articles on dhimmi are drawn entirely from Bat Ye'or. We are back to the same problem of finding good historical sources for information. Even on the question of objectivity and moral judgement, it is not up to us to take a stance. All we can do here is report fairly and in a balanced way the findings of historians. Itsmejudith 14:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

I add this topic because people here mess etymology with meaning. In english hotel, host, hostage and hospital do not mean the same thing but have a common latin origin : hospes, host in english. I re-introduced the triliteral option for dhimmi because all arabic words are built on that base, see wiki article on triliteral Etymology speaks on the origin of the word, not on its meaning. --Golan 11:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, etymology and current meaning are different things. We do not have a source for the etymology. I understand that Arabic words are based on triliteral roots but unless you have a source, guessing that "dhamma" and "dhimmi" share an etymology is original research and not allowed in the encyclopedia. Itsmejudith 15:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually they are completely different words . Damma starts with "dal"(8th alphabet) & spoken "dm", while dhimma with "DZHal"(9th alphabet) (A whole consonant is different , in a word that is made up of 2 consonants only). They are not similar words like hostage and hospital . Dmma means blame while dhima means responsiblity . Dhimmi means responsiblity of muslims . Jizya (meaning reward) is what they pay muslims for fulfilling the responsiblity of their protection. F.a.y.تبادله خيال /c 19:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
It's not gessing, it's simply constating the triliteral those words are made of. Please give your source explaining the triliteral as you say (or guess), and other dh-m-m and d-m-m derived. If you disagree with this etymology, then give yours but not a translation, that's not etymology--Golan 23:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
What you're adding is original research, not allowed by policy (see WP:OR). The fact that an Arabic speaker (F.a.y.) seems to think you're wrong casts more doubt on your conclusions. Please find a source that explicitly says that dhimmi and dhamma share an etymology and you can add it. - Merzbow 01:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
F.a.y., what do you think about the most recent change to this section? I'm inclined to see it as original research also. - Merzbow 00:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
If you consider opening a dictionnary is a personnal research, then this whole encyclopedy can be erased. What I explain is verifiable, the sources cited. i removed the translation which is not at all ethymology. Gollan 06:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Please put any translation of Dhimmi in the relevant section. Etymology deals with the root of the words. I cited here two different arabic dictionnaries explaining the root and their derivatives. Pls give a relevant etymolgic source contradicting what I've written, not such a free removal.Gollan 13:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

According to current text "dhimmi" is a word that has two parts, the first of them meaning dispraise, vilify, etc., and the second (كن) purportedly meaning "to cover or to conceal". I can say that such "second part" doesn't exist in the term. كن transliterated stands for "kn". By the way "kn" doesn't mean "cover or conceal"; if you add the harakah (brief vowel "u" as in "super"), usually omitted in modern script) it's the imperative of verb "to be". So the etymology is false. Since the links doesn't work I wonder where such a nonsense has come from. --Filius Rosadis 19:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

You are right Ibn Rushd, I put a wrong letter for the second part, copy paste error sorry. I meant 27th letter ya ي meaning to coer/to onceal and which is the final letter in dhimmi of course. You should have corrected by yourself my post instead of erasing it. I correct this caracter and put the etymology back. Many thx for your info. Gollan 21:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

So you disagree just with the end of my statement, complain you can't verify pretexting the link is not accesible but you remove the whole statement. Then you put back and extract of a dictionnary that doesn't give any etymology, but a translation. And you argue about nonsense...82.254.20.129 20:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

What? Now you seriously mean that "The second part is ي , (ya) that means to cover or to conceal."? That's even more ridiculous!
It's not that I just disagree with the end of your statement. I can read and write Arabic so I tell you it's completely wrong. I don't need to verify this, but I am curious about where such a nonsense come along. It's a plain lie (not your fault, since you must have picked it from somewhere, but you should've asked an Arabic speaker before editing, we have many in Wikipedia).
On the other hand, the only working link you added, [1], doesn't support your purported etymology, it just defines words without suggesting any connection between dhamam and dhimmi, and states nothing about etymology.
As for the first part of your statement, it's also wrong as explained before. There's an entry about False etymology which contains this interesting explanation: "Incorrect etymologies have sometimes been created for purposes of propaganda. The opponents of the medieval Dominicans joked that Dominicanes was derived from domini canes (“God’s dogs”). A more malicious example was the derivation of Slav from slave, which was used by the Nazis as a pseudo-linguistic justification for some of their atrocities against Slavs." This particular false etymology of dhimmi has to do basically with islamophobia. --Filius Rosadis 22:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
This comes from http://dictionary.sakhr.com company highly specialized in translation based in Arabia, strangely no more reachable, i did anyway some hardcopy of the screens .
The reference http://dictionary.al-islam.com shows that the root dhamim that exist in dhimmi always means a fault/vilification/disapproval. I don't suggest anything, that's a fact.
Etymology is studying the roots of the words, hence it doesn't give any information on the meaning of the word itself as I stated for hospital and hostage, it just shows how the word is built.
By the way the etymology for slave/slav is correct, i don't say that by slavophobia, i'm half slav. The riciculous play on word for dominicans is not etymology, be serious.
I went to my article just citing what I found, and i honestly admit I've been surprised that what I found using an arabic dictionnary is the same as another person wrote using the triliteral on his side.
I've been really surprised that all reference to triliteral in this article a month ago were systematically erased, while another article explaining the triliteral and the etymology for kitab has no problem, less sensitive perhaps.
Has this blindness on etymology something to do with islamism ? Gollan 22:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
It is not a question of eitherislamophobia or islamism. Simply, the point remains: we do not have any reliable source for the etymology of "dhimmi" so there is no justification for including a section with that heading. The translation of the word from Wehr on the other hand is properly sourced and can go in. If there is an authoritative etymological dictionary for Arabic and if it has an entry for "dhimmi" then that would constitute a proper source.Itsmejudith 23:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning

The Meaning of Dhimmi is not derived from the word to blame, to blame is pronounced Dhamma, in the arabic language, changing one letter may change the meaning of the word, even give it the exact opposite of what it truly means. Dhimma ( third letter is i not a) doesn't have a specific meaning I can think of in the english language, but the closest meaning tends to be translated as (responsibility), since it was muslims responsibility to protect the dhimmis living under their rule.

Dhimma & dhamma are totally different words . I dont know how people mix up two rot words & are still considered scholars . The etymology sec should definitely be revised . F.a.y.تبادله خيال /c 21:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Without doubt, Dhamma is not the same as "Dhimma". The concerned person in the first case is "Dhamim" [-+ Ugly] and the concerned one in the second case is "Dhimmiy" [Dhimma is like "compact" and "dept/obligation" or maybe "compact by obligation"].
The Dhimmy is -in my eyes, though- one of the civilized sides in islam. It grant the freemdom of belief in an islamic society. And they were very respected in the islam, Mohammed said there about: who harmed a dhimi, has harmed me too. ["من آذى ذميا فقد آذاني]. The fact that the Dhimmi's had to pay special taxes is -in my eyes, though- normal, since they don't pay the "zakat" or "Sadaqat" which are obligated for the muslims. The article is by the way much too long; The article should be separated as long as we don't have to pay special taxes to create other pages. Read3r 18:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
These comments are not relevant to the question of the accuracy of the etymological notes. Roots in Arabic are triliteral. The triliteral root here is dh-m-m. Both dhamma (verb) and dhimma (noun) are derived from this root. A comparable example is the root d-q-q which gives the verb daqqa 'to be thin' and the noun diqqa 'thinness'. Likewise the root sh-d-d gives rise to the verh shadda 'to become firm, vigorous', and the noun shidda 'firmness, strength, power'. These objections seem POV-motivated: the comment that the dhimma is 'one of the civilized sides in Islam' is just irrelevant to etymology. In any case, the history of these words goes back to pre-Islamic times, and the etymological link between dhamma and dhimma has nothing to do with whether Islam is good or bad. I have removed the dispute flag for this section, because no relevant objections have been made to its content, and no cited authorities have been given for the proposals to change the section.Eagleswings 07:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Etymologies, even those given in etymological dictionaries, are often just educated guesses and are frequently subject to revision by later scholars. I note that you give your own knowledge of Arabic as Level 1. Is this section disputed? Yes. I am putting the tag back on. Itsmejudith 14:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

@Eagleswings, we have two nouns in Arabic: "Dhimma" and "Dhamama". The second one means what you said. The named person from Dhimma is "Dhimmi", and the person from "dhamama" is "Dhamim". So you can clearly see that they are distinctive. The same letters which you call the "roots" can lead in many cases to misunderstandings when you consider the similarities of the letters as relationship with the meaning. "Mawla" can as example mean "the master" and "the slave/knight" in the same time another better example is the verb "Shaqqa". Even, if we would accept that the two names are related [which is unlikely], that doesn't mean they were used in that context [to blame]. The arab speaking people use the word "Dhimma" as serious personal impact or debt. by the way, you surely meant "Raqqa" by "daqqa" in your reply. Read3r 15:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I have the Dictionary in front of me. It writes about Dhamma and Dhimma and Dhimmi in p.360. On Dhimma it says:

"pl. dimam protection, care, custody, coventant of protection, compact; responsibility, answerableness; financial obligation, liability, debt; in violability, security of life and property; safegurd, guaruntee, security; conscience.... ahl ad-dhimma: the free non-Muslim subjects living in Muslim countries who, in return for paying the capital tax, enjoyed protection and safety;..."

There is no connection whatsoever made between dhamma and dhimma. I suggest an admin blocks the editor who added this. --Aminz 04:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Strange policy to ask for blocking a contributor. I hope this pretended encyclopedia leaves at least a free speech to any contributor who has arguments to give even discutables, we're here to discuss. Please, no Redeker policy. It's not here question of the meaning of Dhimma but its origin. By the way, how to translate in one or several distincts words a legal status existing only under islam and arabic language ? The French could then say that 'code noir' means protection, because it meant to protect black slaves against physical abuse . --Golan 17:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

In english hotel, host, hostage and hospital do not mean the same thing but have a common latin origin : hospes, host in english. Was Dhimmi suposely meaning protection, used before for the same purpose outside this legal status ? Was it used for instance to qualify some protection of citizens ? Is this word used outside this legal status ? What are the other arabic words with the same triliteral root dh-m-m apart dhimma and dhamma ? --Golan 18:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bat Yeor

Is she authentic enough that almost half of the article comes from her pen . F.a.y.تبادله خيال /c 21:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually it is not important whether she is authentic or notable. The fact is she is not a historian and therefore not acceptable as a main source of facts for a history article. The main task now for this article is to rewrite it using only proper historical sources. It helps if they are written in English but they should ideally not just be from Western countries. Another question, that we discussed here a long time ago, is restructuring the article, because it is not just that Bat Ye'or is used as a source for one-off facts but also that the article as it is at present follows her structure. Itsmejudith 23:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I actually tried to show her direction of views in the section "Dhimmi in the literature". BTW, why was that section removed? I think it was good to inform the readers that "Dhimmitude" is actually a myth according to Lewis. --Aminz 00:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, we can always restructure the article. --Aminz 00:18, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

this article needs to be redone from top to bottom. the entire thing reeks of bias--not only factually, but the semantics of it look to pardon an apartheid-like policy.

it's one thing to be politically or religiously motivated--it's another to make a sincere attempt to gloss over a historically documented fact.

i would enjoy an expert to categorically define the term and erase the politically correct semantics of the article.

Unfortunately dhimmitude is not consigned to history. Arrow740 00:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Bat Ye'or is a prominent historian. Arrow740 00:23, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
She is not a prominent historian. She makes observations and her views academcially are as legitimate as the views of most who have posted in this discussion. She is considered credible by those looking for any source to back their views. Nokhodi 04:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Comparing her credibility that of those who post here completely misses the point. We are lay encyclopedia editors doing what Wikipedia calls "source research". Everything we add must be based on the work of bona fide scholars doing original research. There is no use discussing this point any more except on the basis of a close reading of WP policies and guidelines. Itsmejudith 10:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Judith what is wrong with her "method"? as that accusation makes no sense to me as no academic has disproved any of the facts she has made public or the translations of documents she has done. WP policies and guidelines clearly show she is a good source as compared to say american academics that take 20 million dollars to promote Islam.Hypnosadist 19:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Report fairly and in a balanced way?

Itsmejudith says above "Even on the question of objectivity and moral judgement, it is not up to us to take a stance. All we can do here is report fairly and in a balanced way the findings of historians".

I have a huge problem with this point of view. Take a look at the articles on Nazism, Racism and Cultural Imperialism. Neither of the three articles seeks to be "fair" in covering the point of view of the people who practice nazism, racism and cultural imperialism, despite knowing for a fact that such points of view exist. Why? Because nazism, racism and cultural imperialism are universally considered bad. Oh horror - I just made a moral judgement. And so did, apparently, the authors of these three articles. And so did billions of people worldwide. The issue is settled. Period.

Judith, would you care to edit the article on Nazism to make it more "fair and balanced" to the Neo-Nazis? And if not, why on earth are you trying to do this here?--Maverick61 09:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Maverick, I did not use the word "fair" and I used the word "balanced" in relation to the professional opinions of historians. I am not trying to edit this article to be more fair and balanced to any group, or even to be more fair and balanced full stop. I am trying to help it to reflect the views of the authorities in the field. We could discuss this further but it would have to be on the basis of WP:NPOV (especially the sections "Religion" and "Morally offensive views"(, WP:RS (especially 9.1 History), and at WP:V. I had a look at the article on Nazism. I don't see any moral judgements in it. It is a good illustration of how to stick to the facts and allow readers to draw their own conclusions; however it is rather poorly referenced. Itsmejudith 14:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Judith, sorry for twisting your words. I think we now have something we can both agree on: the article on Nazism is a good, fair and balanced way to report history and stick to the facts. All I would like to see is a Dhimmi article that works the same way, and, yes, it would be nice if it was better referenced. Agreed?--Maverick61 21:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
BTW the analogy bw Dhimmi, Nazism & Racism is badly wrong , & is based upon ignorance {& arrogance). The concept of Dhimma can more exactly be equated with the concept of Goyim, Heathen or Dalit/Maleecha . In no religious scripture will you see any rights of these people, only Islam gives them rights to live . Canaanites, American Indians, Buddhists in India .... they are all dead . Goy or Heathen articles are much more balanced & fair . And they are definitely not based on the works of anti-semites or anti-christians . Unlike this , here the whole article is based on hate-inciting works of rabid Islamophobes . F.a.y.تبادله خيال /c 20:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
"American Indians," this would imply America is a theocracy which of course it is not. To explain, Christianity is simply not the reason there are fewer Native Americans in the US, besides the native americans in the US, ascribed in law, have equal rights with their fellow Americans. The same cannot be said of many natives in Islamic countries.... unless of course, they become muslims. And well, I fail to understand how the status of 'native americans' in the US has any relevence to this article. JHJPDJKDKHI! 06:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
F.a.y. read my previous posts: I am not making an analogy between Dhimmi and Nazism. I am stating that Dhimmi is a form of Cultural Imperialism. It is widely accepted today that cultural imperialism is damaging and wrong, no matter who perpetrates it. As far as ignorance is concerned, my grand-grandparents were dhimmi under the Ottoman empire, and it so happens that they were still alive when I was a teen... I am talking from first-hand witness accounts heard by me personally.--Maverick61 21:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Maverick I do see where you are coming from, but an article must be based on objective sources. Unfortunately your memories of conversations with your great-grandparents don't count. They are oral history. If you had written them down and got them published then perhaps they could have been cited. That's how it goes. It's only been in editing this page that I've learnt how rigorous Wikipedia sourcing has to be. Also, of course your family memories could only ever be evidence for one part of the world and one period of time. This article has to cover many different countries and many centuries. There are serious historiographical problems in doing that. The evidence we have of the distant past is quite different from the evidence of the last century. Are there any books, based on historical research, that you would like to see used here? Itsmejudith 22:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
PS in relation to your comment before last, Maverick, which I missed. No apology necessary. Yes, we can agree on the basis for moving this article forward. Itsmejudith 14:24, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
The repeated use of the phrase 'Fair and balanced' makes me nervous. Fox News uses that phrase as a euphamism for their Christian conservative pro-republican portrayals/revisionism of reality. I don't think we want that kind of tactic employed in editing this article. If we're using that phrase for what it means in english rather than 'american', we need to be clear on that. Shams2006 16:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
maverick, dhimmi is not properly compared to cultural imperialism. I wonder if that's even an appropriate analogy for what your grandparents experienced - did they speak arabic and wear robes and have little recollection of bulgarian non-Islamic influence? I agree with Fay, compare apples to apples. Nazism and Apartheid were systems based on race. Compare dhimmi to goyim, etc. and from sources that cite historical accountsOizfar 16:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
It just didn't work in bulgaria, which like Balkans remained a disputed teritory and look at the legacy of peace this has left that area of the world. Where as if you look at north and east africa, pakistan etc you can see how effective dhimmi was in destroying local culture, religion and language(particluarly in africa). We have lot of evidence of the simple facts that non-muslim countries where invaded dhimmi was applied and now they are muslim countries, the reason we are given is that these people happily converted (without compulsion), BS and every one knows it. Dhimmi is text book cultural imperialism, most empires export their culture accidently as the defeated peoples try to deal with their new rulers. Dhimmi uses taxation and increased rights and greater security offered if you become a muslim to deliberately chip away a non-muslim cultures year on year, century after century. Only those with the strongest cultural bonds last more that 100 years under these rules, then the rules on Apostates (ie that they should be killed) stops people moving away from islam back to their original faith. The only way you can improve on dhimmi is by adding an advertising campain against non-muslims. The only thing comparable in history for the distuction of native cultures is Catholic church's activities in South and Central america which where at least equal if not as bad (but this was convert or die force not cultural imperialism). Islam started by distorying another religions shrine and claiming it as its own (mecca) and imposing its beliefs and has continued in this way for 1400 years hence why it now covers a large area and has 1.6 billion followers, this is the fact of the matter.Hypnosadist 17:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Hypno, we really ought not to be using the article talk page to present our own PsOV. Having said that, I just wanted to point out that the spread of Islam in Africa happened for a great variety of reasons and over a very long period of time indeed (7th century until today). You might also want to think about how and why Christianity spread so quickly in sub-Saharan Africa. (The novel Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe deals with this in a brilliant and very readable way.) And there are many people today who follow one of the monotheistic religions and at the same time are proud of their ancient cultural traditions, whether in Africa, Latin America, Australia, United States .... Itsmejudith 21:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I guess I just want to add another perspective to this discussion on Dhimmi. The "Islamic State" as used in all of the historical contexts here(ie: Khalifa Rashidoon, Omayads, Fatimids, Ottomans, etc) viewd Muslims as citizens of the state and non-Muslims as non-citizens. I won't argue about the excesses that have been committed by various regimes against dhimmis, but put in the context I offer here might bring things into better focus. The wearing of a yellow or blue belt, or black or red hat becomes synonmous with visas, green cards, etc. If you think not, then you have never experienced the treatment readily offered to those who are of non anglo-saxon or white origin in this country who lack citizen status, or worse yet are undocumented. Citizenship has always had preference over non-citizenship in any society. How different societies treated their non-citizen populations would make for an interesting study in comparison to the dhimmi's relationship to their contemporary Islamic rulers. Of course if we do view the status of a dhimmi as being synonamous with non-citizenship we begin to take away the some of the "evilness" many of us would like to portray as being synonamous with Islam. In order for me to be a valid citizen of the United States, I must make a pledge of alegience to the Religion of this state, which is secularism. Ibrahim

Lets have some more facts then (it won't work but hey!)! Dhimmi's are not non-citzens in a far off land, they are the subject of invasion in their country and then forced to pay for the right to draw breath. They are not illegal imigrents or undocumented as the PC term is, its their country! You want to know what dhimmi is like, its exactly the same as the war on Iraq then the americans charge all iraqies 5% of the yearly income to protect them from terrorism, and there is no iraqy government only direct rule from washington. And i bet you don't like the iraq war to start with.Hypnosadist 00:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

PS secularism (and governments enforcing it)is why mosques don't get car bombed in the west but they do in iraq! and its not a religion thats why all the western muslims on this site can go and pray right now if they wanted in many different flavours of Islam.Hypnosadist 00:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

no society in the world provides social services without taxation. No society in the world embraces minorities without them becoming full citizens and swearing allegiance to the state. It's the mark of a truly advanced society that it would, as a theocracy, allow other religions to exist completely independently and even enforce their own sacred law. I would love to see the vatican allow Muslims to come in and set up a little shariah state in some corner. What you deliberately ignore is that Dhimmis are free from the religious obligation to pay zakat, which is similiar in amount to jizya. What you deliberately perpetuate is the lie that all or even most lands that existed under Islamic rule did so as the result of offensive conquest. Wikipedia is not the place for either my characterization or hypnosadist’s. It’s telling that the enemies of Islam are so desperate to wage smear campaigns that even minutae like this is not spared.Oizfar 15:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

No obligation to pay Jizah exist (unless it is applied by force), thats the fact you fail to comprehend. You have no idea how i can find these things offensive so you can have no idea what i'm going to talk about. Which of the zero muslims in the vatican need shariah law? Ps can i go to see the black stone as it was my faiths' before you stole it off us?Hypnosadist 20:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

This addresses the contention that the definition should not be included because the condition has been long since abolished. The dhimmi-ist condition does exist today, though the term may be techically obsolete. Christians in Moslem countries are universally forbiddent to proseltize, though this is a condition of their faith -to "share" the faith. This is perhaps a violation of the United Nations charter relating to freedom of religion. But even if consistent with the charter, per se, it still violates religious freedom.


[edit] Why not just state what the word means in its common day use?

Dhimmi is a non muslim subjecting to the idears of a muslim. Dhimmitude is the behaviour of a non muslim subjecting to the idears of muslims.

[edit] Cleanup LEAD

The lead paragraph is too long for an article explaining an arabaic word and it uses. Please can the local editors cleanup. FrummerThanThou 21:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, maybe limit the intro to the definition of Dhimmi and add a section that disscusses who dhimmis were and the rights they were allowed freakytiki34166.82.144.14 01:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

A few sentences is not enough. See WP:Lead--Aminz 07:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

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