Talk:Design methods

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This article was nominated for deletion on December 18, 2005. The result of the discussion was no consensus. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Contents 1 Before Commenting, a Few Things to Remember 2 Comments to The Role of Design Practitioners 3 Comments to Design Management 4 Comments to The Role of Design Groups 5 Comments to Expansion of Digital Technologies 6 Added Sub-Section on Design Education 7 Comments to Current State of Design Methods 8 Reversion in first section 9 Ongoing edits 10 Comments to Formalization of Design Methods 11 Links and more links

[edit] Before Commenting, a Few Things to Remember

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[edit] Comments to The Role of Design Practitioners

I'm lingering on the justification of Paul Rand. When it comes to the history of design methods, Paul Rand doesn't immediately come to mind. I appreciate his inclusion for the fact he was a graphic design pioneer. Awareness of design by corporations owes much to his efforts. Having been taught by him and observing him for that wonderful week of his last appearance at the Yale Brissago program, my view of him as an exclusively monolithic practitioner was reinforced. But I'm open to be corrected. (Design Methods Advocate 15:34, 21 December 2005 (UTC))

• Paul should be included only for recognition that he at first rejected philosophy and then came back to it in his own way. (Design Methods 22:01, 21 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Comments to Design Management

This section serves as good transition for the basis of methods-practicing design groups, who are reaching out to disciplines of business. Speaking about this connection, however thick or volatile, between design and business, Bruce Nussbaum, who covers design and innovation for BusinessWeek, made a recent blog entry called Innovation vs. Design—The British Design Council weighs in. Core of this entry is design's reach beyond the frame of (art)ifacts, as affected by design methods. (Design Methods Advocate 18:43, 22 December 2005 (UTC))

• Thanks for the comment. This section was needed, but we should discuss how granular we want to get. Business Week has been an advocate, especially their yearly awards (mostly in product design). I will go to the Innovation section. (Design Methods 00:11, 23 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Comments to The Role of Design Groups

This is a good start as an extension of The Role of Design Practitioners. Ideo and Gravity Tank are two examples of product design based firms using many of the same ideas and even language. This should be expanded over time to discuss the intersection of process and method, since much of what they discuss is process (when). We also probably need to discuss the new grouping of skill sets. Brainstorming is over 40 years old as an idea, the question is how is it different now? (Design Methods 01:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC))

Complementing Design Practitioners with Design Groups feeds the role of Design Management. This segue provides more evidence of design methods figuring into the commercial work environment. This also provides a sense of broadened scale and scope of adopters of design methods not only by design disciplines but also by those of business. (Design Methods Advocate 14:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC))

The International Council of Graphic Design Associations (Icograda) had a recent Opinion poll regarding method of preference when doing design research. Categories were Behavioral, Participatory and Survey. Participatory design research scored highest but all scores were close in proximity. Such culling from design community testifies to professional practice of design methods. (Design Methods Advocate 17:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC))

• Just a thought. The Role of Design Groups was very much affected by the rise of the internet and the integration of information technologies. This caused new skills such as ethnography, cognitive science, information architecture, etc. to be integrated into more traditional design skill sets. I would say that Clement Mok was an instrumental bridge between traditional design consultancies and the new interdisciplinary consultancies. I would also state that Ideo was very much driven from engineering as David Kelly's background is in engineering. It seems as if industrial designers and engineers invigorated designers and design methods. These are a few thoughts to chomp on. (Design Methods 15:37, 22 December 2005 (UTC))
  • I did want to wrap, and still plan to do so without being reactionary, fast-forward statements in first paragraph of Design Groups regarding I.T., an apparent accelerant to skill sets of design disciplines, particularly interface and interaction design. "It" also has accelerated product and service offerings resulting in added complexity for companies. Coping with this complexity, even managing it, is an opportunity for designers with applied understanding of design methods. (Design Methods Advocate 18:11, 22 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Comments to Expansion of Digital Technologies

Thanks for this addition. I added to paragraph on Clement Mok. I thought it was appropriate to add in his book Designing Business: Multiple Media, Multiple Disciplines. The title alone echoes the muliplicity nature of Design methods and their adopters. In particular, Mok's manifesto-esque tome contributes to the argument of advancing design's collaboration and sensitivity to context. Also, should this section be renamed "Impact of Information Technology"? Digital Technologies is too specific to me. (Design Methods Advocate 22:03, 24 December 2005 (UTC))

This sub-section also provides a stage for the following part on Design Education as it relates to Design methods, which no doubt is an area constantly provoked by I.T., as both a source of equipment and dilemma. (Design Methods Advocate 22:09, 24 December 2005 (UTC))

• Thanks for the addtions. I agree about Clement's intent, however I would like to reduce the use of "context", "paradigm" and other words which seem to mean very little. I do agree with the change in the name of the Digital Technologies section and will rename it. (Design Methods 21:42, 26 December 2005 (UTC))
  • I changed "Digital Technologies" to the more collective label of Information Technology. (Design Methods Advocate 23:03, 2 January 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Added Sub-Section on Design Education

Don't know if this belongs under Articulations or should be a level up in the hierarchy. Also fixed those Back to Tops. (Design Methods Advocate 22:18, 22 December 2005 (UTC))

• This topic I have lots of trepidation about due to how large it is. Education needs to be addressed, but think we still need to clean up and detail the topical areas that we already have. Let's hold off adding any more sections, except we should discuss adding "New Technologies, New Skill Groups" (Currently Design Group section), From Method to Methodology (discussing the difference between methods and process and the creation of methodological frameworks). (Design Methods 00:16, 23 December 2005 (UTC))
  • Smart move to move this topic onto its own page considering its intricate scope, allowing Design Methods's connection to Design education to be investigated. (Design Methods Advocate 06:30, 8 January 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Comments to Current State of Design Methods

What is the source for Victor Margolin's challenges to making Design methods a unified vehicle of knowledge? Also, designers are, relatively speaking, problem solvers, but broadly speaking and probably more empathic, designers, whatever the discipline, attempt to transform situations for the better. Problems can be perceived as points in isolation in contrast to situations that are more encompassing. Design methods can be described as a collective way to solve to a certain extent situations where users intersect with a product or service and Nature. (Design Methods Advocate 22:25, 24 December 2005 (UTC))

• Victor speaks of creating an agreed "problematique" where we can focus on a limited number of issues to solve with collective energies. He calls this the "topoi". Yes, designers are problem solvers, but so are lawyers, accountants and just about every other profession. What separates designers from other professions is an acute yearning for media and the users that use them. All designers call themselves by the medium in which they use. I agree that we are moving from "products" to "situations", but we need to define what these are in order to have a deeper dialogue. As for design methods as a collective activity, this was originally agreed up in 19652, but it took almost 40 years for a small segment of the design community to come around to this idea. (Design Methods 18:51, 25 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Reversion in first section

What was the point of taking things backwards to something like this?

Tomas Maldonado, an Argentinian architect and director of the post-war design school, Hochschule für Gestaltung in Ulm, strove to link design to improvement of the social dimension. He realized that design, as an applied art, was a synthetic discipline that borrrowed heavily from other disciplines. There was a gap between the craft language of design and the post-war complexity that demanded more of design to transform the expression/production model to one of methods, systems and processes.

Maldonado realized that design, as an applied art, was a synthetic discipline that borrrowed heavily from other disciplines.

That puts back a duplication. The whole article, at 50K, is too long, and too like someone's manifesto. I am quite prepared to work piecemeal at improving it. But regressive edits are not a good idea.

Charles Matthews 17:06, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks Charles for your comments, and we did not realize this was edited by anyone - so first off sorry. I am not sure what you are requesting or asking. If it is for this passage to be shortened, then we are in agreement. As for the whole article size, I am aware of the 35K standard, and am meeting with contributors to determine what to do. There is no manifesto intent, but to describe and define an area that is difficult to describe and define. Design methods will need to be broken apart and new articles created. We are somewhat new to Wikidom and are responsive to constructive suggestions, so please keep them coming (Design Methods 20:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC))

Consult the Page History for the past edits. If you have the page on your watchlist you can track edits as they are made. Charles Matthews 08:05, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks Charles for your extensive editing and reordering of design methods. We met and many of your ideas and comments we discussed - so we are in alignment in sevreral of the changes. However, we did some reordering and edited some of the changes to come closer to our intention to have a good overview of design methods in the right order. Also, the article is at 35K, which was one of our goals. Thank you for your help, we do appreciate it. (Design Methods 16:39, 7 January 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Ongoing edits

Ongoing edits to this page are causing problems. I will mention

• non-use of edit summaries - it is not acceptable to make 50, 60 or more edits without a single edit summary in explanation. This effectively excludes others from comprehension of what is being done to the article
• non-use of minor edit check-box
• retrograde steps - it is not acceptable to replace internal links, for example to A Pattern Language, by external links
• overlinking - John Christopher Jones does not need a link on every occasion; I put in intensive work in reducing the linkage of this page into conformity with standard policy and practice
• textbook-style provocative headings are not in place in Wikipedia, which is an encyclopedia centrally concerned with documentation, and not supposing that the reader requires didacticism
• large cuts of material without any consultation or indication.

It should be well noted that no concept of 'ownership' is recognised on Wikipedia. Page editing is a collective activity.

Charles Matthews 08:55, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• Thank you Charles for your commitment to improving Design Methods, we appreciate it (collectively). Below are our comments to your points:

• non-use of edit summaries - it is not acceptable to make 50, 60 or more edits without a single edit summary in explanation. This effectively excludes others from comprehension of what is being done to the article – agreed
• non-use of minor edit check-box – we have used the minor edit box when appropriate. We will review what is considered a minor edit.
• retrograde steps - it is not acceptable to replace internal links, for example to A Pattern Language, by external links - yes, however if an external link has better source information, then it should be available
• overlinking - John Christopher Jones does not need a link on every occasion; I put in intensive work in reducing the linkage of this page into conformity with standard policy and practice - agreed
• textbook-style provocative headings are not in place in Wikipedia, which is an encyclopedia centrally concerned with documentation, and not supposing that the reader requires didacticism - it is not our intent to have provocative headings and we do not believe that we have crossed any line
• large cuts of material without any consultation or indication. - while we agree with your comment, we were not consulted when you reworked design methods. In the discussion page of every posted document is where suggestions and comments should be placed
• It should be well noted that no concept of 'ownership' is recognised on Wikipedia. Page editing is a collective activity. - agreed (67.173.159.109 15:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC))

On linking externally. Wikipedia:External links, a style guide page, notes Wikipedia always prefers internal links, even to non-existent articles, over external links.. Therefore inline but external links should always be replaced by wikilinks, as matter of high priority. The rationale is to develop our articles here as a whole, by encouraging editors to improve Wikipedia content in line with the best available elsewhere. Red links favour the creation of organic growth here, you could say. So, for example in the case of A Pattern Language, there is a strong presumption in favour of using a wikilink. Inline links to other websites have a primary use to back up citations. They are otherwise to some extent deprecated, and tend to accumulate in the dedicated sections at the ends of articles. Charles Matthews 16:07, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments to Formalization of Design Methods

Thanks for adding John Christopher Jones's diagram from his 1970 book Design Methods. It's a fascinating multidisciplinary matrix with concepts that resonate more so today such as "design situation," "functional innovation," "value analysis," even "boundary searching" which speaks to framing problems as robustly as possible. These concepts describe design as systemic. What's the legend for the gray zones? And it would be an interesting exercise to compare this lens from more than thirty years ago to today's take on Design Methods, both inputs and outputs. Will the results be a reflection or refraction? (Design Methods Advocate 03:43, 12 January 2006 (UTC))

• The gray zones that you are referring to is how JCJ rationalized different ways design is practiced. On the far right, the headings and methods are most concerned with traditional design crafts, the gray zone to the left is concerned with design by drawing when design seperated from the crafts, the gray zone to the left is concerned with the design of systems, and the last gray zone to the left is concerned with technological change. Your exercise is something that needs to be done. (Design Methods 14:12, 12 January 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Links and more links

As far as I understand it, external links should be at the end of the article as references, external links, etc. The article had numerous external links throughout, which I've now removed or placed in the appropriate location at the end of the article. If there are ones that I removed but should be included, please reinsert them, or at least discuss them here. Also, I think the article would be better off if the duplicate wikilinks were removed. --Ronz 16:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)