Talk:Derry

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Derry article.

Note to editors: the agreed compromise for the Derry/Londonderry name dispute is that the city page shall be titled Derry and the county page shall be titled County Londonderry.

Regarding that website we do not place links on websites to maintain a "NPOV", I have no more intention of maintaing a nationalist or loyalist link - its simply linkspam not "personal views", dont attempt to take the moral high ground because you got burned here before - view the website, mostly links to otherwebsites and not substantial. Notwithstanding I will leave the link unless someone else removes it, but wikipedia is not a link farm either. Djegan 14:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Regarding recent edits by Lapsed Pacifist whilst some of them are clearly pov, I believe that the edit as of 20:50, 31 December 2005 is acceptable the only infraction being over linking. As for the removal of two people these people are clearly of County Londonderry and not the city, so should not be in this article. Anyone in agreement (with me) as I am reluctant to start a revert war in his favour (without consensus)? Djegan 21:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The two names solution seems like a fair compromise at this point. However, it is almost certainly the wrong way round (I think anyone would tell you this, to be fair) - calling the city "Londonderry" and the county "Derry" would bring things much into line with actual usage.

Contents

[edit] Derry/Londonderry

Is it just me or does all this constant renaming of the two Londonderry/Derry articles from one name to another strike anyone else as a little childish?

Clearly we need a compromise everyone can live with. I suggest we call the county article "Londonderry" and the city article "Derry". Or vice versa if anyone has a strong reason to prefer it the other way.

The explanation at the start of each article that there are two names should of course be kept.

No-one is going to win a renaming war and it makes the encyclopedia look pretty unproffessional. -Ikari (3 Mar, 2004).

I would certainly go for county article "Londonderry" and the city article "Derry" if there is to be a compromise. The county has only been "Londonderry" officially, while the town/city has been "Derry" originally, "Londonderry" in its city charter, and "Derry" in its district council name so 2-1 to "Derry". It doesn't matter much, but stability would be sensible. --Henrygb 17:58, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That would make sense. The way I set it up was to have the articles at 'Derry' and have the first word in the actual text to be 'Londonderry', which struck me as a typical Northern Ireland compromise - that way both sides could claim primacy. ;) However, this then resulted in someone moving both articles to 'Londonderry' without a change in the wording, then someone copy-and-paste moving it to 'Derry' and making it clear in both articles that Derry had primacy. Morwen 18:03, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)

If the name of the city is going to be called Derry there is a mistake 4 lines down where it refares to its as the old walled city of londonDerry.

[edit] Doire

I'm of Irish republican descent and live in northeast England. "Londonderry", as a coal mine owning family and as a place, are anathema to me. Nevertheless when on wikipedia NPOV means I expect to use "Londonderry" when referring to the County or City in Northern Ireland. The city's local government has changed its name to "Derry City Council" but cannot (sadly (my POV)) change the name of the area. garryq 09:28, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Given that "Derry" is not the official name, it should not be used in the article title. "Londonderry" is NPOV, "Derry" is not. -- Emsworth 17:34, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Uber pedantry but isn't the area administered by the district council bigger than the traditional city? Timrollpickering 18:52, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Yes, you are correct. But the Council determines its own name, not the name of the region it governs. In any event, the article appears to concern the city, rather than the district. -- Emsworth
A general point of confusion - a lot of articles try to cover both the traditional area and the current unit of local government on the same page. But here the boxes certainly support this being about the district. Maybe we should copy the practice of Canterbury, Kent (Canterbury itself) and City of Canterbury for the local government area - how about Derry (district) to provide a page on the district in the same format as the other 25, and another for Stroke City itself? Timrollpickering 21:58, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
If the name of the district is indeed Derry, then by all means I would be open to having "Derry (district)" and "Londonderry." -- Emsworth 22:12, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Incidentally, to offer my opinion on the above "compromise": whilst the efforts to reach a consensus are laudable, we cannot arbitrarily decide an unofficial name is to be used. Londonderry is in the United Kingdom; therefore, we should go by the name used by the British government. The Republic of Ireland may purport to determine the city's name, but doing so would be similar to the UK deciding that County Offaly should be known as King's County. -- Emsworth 21:08, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Er... um... no it wouldn't. 70+% of the population of Offaly don't want to rejoin the UK... I suggest you look at the advice on British vs. American English before you dismiss that view out of hand.

The City/district split is an interesting name - except that the official name of the local government district is Derry City Council. Try disambiguating that one... Gerry Lynch 09:45, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What the people of Londonderry want to do is irrelevant. The fact is that the city of Londonderry falls within the United Kingdom, and it is that nation—not the Republic of Ireland—that may determine the name. Furthermore, this question has nothing to do with differences between British and American English. -- Emsworth 13:55, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What the people of Derry call their city is entirely relevant (note Derry is the peferred form of around 70% of the City's inhabitants - the position of the Republic of Ireland is irrelevant). I note for example that the article on Kashgar is entitled Kashgar (as it is called by its local inhabitants), not Kashi (as the government in Beijing calls it) even though the Chinese name is written alongside it on the first line. The article on
The Wikipedia manual of style says that: Cultural clashes over grammar, spelling and capitalisation/capitalization are a common experience on Wikipedia. Remember that millions of people may have been taught to use a different form of English than yours, including different spellings, grammatical constructions or capitalisation. For the English Wikipedia, there is no preference among the major national varieties of English (American, British, Canadian, and others). However, there is a certain etiquette generally accepted on Wikipedia
and among these are: Articles which focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally aim to conform to the spelling of that country (for instance the British "Labour Party"). A reference to "the American labour movement" (with a U) or to "Anglicization" (with a Z) may be jarring. However, a reference to "the American labour movement" would be okay on New Labour. Believe me, ig you're taught that Derry is the correcy spelling, Londonderry is jarring (and no doubt vice-versa).
and possibly pertinently If an article is predominantly written in one type of English, aim to conform to that type rather than provoking conflict by changing to another. (Sometimes, this can happen quite innocently, so please don't be too quick to make accusations!).
In any case, to make quite a major change on what is a sensitive subject without at least seeking a degree of discussion and consent on the relevant talk page is bad form Emsworth. Wikipedia depends on consensus. If we make controversial edits without it, the long-term consequence of that is that we just spend all day reverting one anothers' edits. You've been around here long enough to know that. Gerry Lynch 16:53, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Accepting that each form may be jarring and offensive to those who use the other, one must now consider the question of neutral point of view. Using "Derry," perhaps, implicitly endorses the nationalist point of view. On the other hand, "Londonderry" is the name contained in the Royal Charter and is the official name. I do not suggest that official names be used always (as is the case with, for example, the article Calcutta), but here, where there is a dispute over the name, official status should lend some weight to one title. -- Emsworth 17:03, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Of course - but rememer these are equally political choices. Calcutta is perceived by many in India is a colonialist term (and interestingly the authors of Mumbai/Bombay and Chennai/Madras have used the Maharathi and Tamil names for those cities), Kolkata by others as the worst sort of politically correct gesture politics. Kashgar might be viewed as a term of Uighur nationalism; Kashi of Chinese assimilationism. This is where NPOV runs up against the brick wall of ethnic suspicion, I'm afraid. For example, saying that Londonderry is the name on the Royal Charter is hardly likely to convince people of its neutrality, at least not among the local majorty.
Personally I'm not that fussed - I wish this was all I had to worry about. Had the article already been at Londonderry I probably wouldn't have bothered but I didn't think it was quite cricket to move it without checking. Gerry Lynch 17:15, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I certainly apologise for not having checked, but I moved the page on the basis of Mr Quantrill's comments above. He made his post in April, and recieved no contradictory reply. -- Emsworth 17:26, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Would Derry/Londonderry or Londonderry/Derry be a workable answer? The article itself points to Derry being the more accepted colloquial term, so I'd go with the former. Wikipedia generally encourages the most used term over strict legal correctness, which in my mind renders the point about the Charter invalid as an umpire on this one. Timrollpickering 17:31, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I don't know of many people who use "Derry/Londonderry," so I don't think it would be an appropriate title. -- Emsworth 18:52, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This article should be reverted to "Derry" (the city) not because of officaldom and posturing but because it was previously decided that it should be this way (as at the top), as a compromise in which several people took part - to reiterate what someone said at the time about renaming "it makes the encyclopedia look pretty unproffessional". "Londonderry" is the accepted name of the county, this is what it should be. Djegan 20:21, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The previous situation was a compromise. Having both the city and county articles entitled "Londonderry" is not. And yes, the compromise does need to take into consideration the views of those in the Republic also - it is a matter of some great importance to many. zoney | talk 20:30, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
To name articles a certain way just to make people happy is ridiculous. Official polls seem to indicate, however, that common usage trumps official status. Consequently, I would not oppose a reversion on the grounds that Derry is the more commonly used phrase. But, in general, I do not support changing names just to please a few people. -- Emsworth 20:31, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Derry has of course been at the top of the news today because of the floods. The BBC refered to the city as Derry throughout. I hope this data point is useful. Pcb21| Pete 23:14, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You'll note usage in the article varies between using the two terms. This is the usual practice on BBC NI from what I've seen. zoney | talk 00:12, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)


It should be noted that someone a few years back won a court case to get a parking ticket killed because it had "Londonderry" down as the city name, and the UK courts system ruled it didn't exist. I can probably dig up the article about it, I think it was after ireland.com started archiving. I think the fact that the UK courts system acknowledges the city is Derry and the county is Londonderry should set the precedent for whats done here

This is probably because the local authority is responsible for parking tickets and isn't named Londonderry City Council, but Derry City Council. It'd be as invalid as receiving a parking ticket in Limerick city with Limerick County Council as the issuing authority. But, then again, I'm merely hypothesising, I don't know for sure what the above situation was, or if it did happen. zoney ███ talk 13:16, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
On an unrelated point Derry Airport is officially called "City of Derry Airport". Djegan 16:51, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
So I moved it. But it is worth noting that its code is LDY and that its homepage http://www.cityofderryairport.com/ says it is located seven miles northeast of Northern Ireland's second largest city - the historic walled city of Londonderry. So they know a compromise when they want one. --Henrygb 02:15, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You're probably right that they emphasized it as a compromise, but just as a historical aside, their usage is accurate. The "historic walled city" is a very small part of the actual city. It's the part that was built by settlers from London. 24.194.227.174 21:49, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I must say I'm disappointed to see that Londonderry's page is titled 'Derry'. A compromise would be fine if there were a genuine question over the validity of Londonderry's name, but there isn't, despite what the majority of its inhabitants might prefer. It all smells more than faintly of denial, frankly jamesgibbon 12:20, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
How did Nationalist gain control of City Council then?--Play Brian Moore 00:51, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
that was assuredly not a consequence of the city's name. jamesgibbon 22:14, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
By being elected by the population,l obviously. The name of the city is Derry in the eyes of the majority of its inhabitants, which its council makeup clearly shows, and in the eyes of the council itself. Its the name the Wikipedia is going to use, so you can be as dissapointed as you want, its not going to change anything. --Kiand 22:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Here in the Republic all signposts pointing to it refer to "Derry" and that is what we call it. We just cannot use the name "Londonderry" because the term "London" being added to the old "Derry/Doire" name just feels too colonial - regardless of what the constitutional position of NI might be. Many Unionists in the North also call it Derry....except when the cameras are around of course. Even so, wikipedia is for everyone so leave it as Derry/Londonderry I suppose. And roll on the referendum! Peter O'Connell

  • And there's even the Apprentice Boys of Derry (sic) of which Ian Paisley is a member! Derry is the accepted, historic, cross-community name for the city. The L word is only used by British bureaucrats and colonialists, Unionists trying to score points, and those who know nothing about the place. 213.94.246.55 09:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The city" elsewhere in Wikipedia

The original compromise was to use Derry for the page title and County Londonderry for the county page title - it didn't cover the various terms in the article. I don't think anyone disagrees that officially before the walled city was built it was clearly Derry, then it was renamed Londonderry and still is in the city charter, but once Northern Ireland was divided into districts the local authority decided to call itself Derry City Council; local people understand both even if they use one or the other. It does look to me as if there is a trend towards some editors are pushing towards Derry excessively in the article and elsewhere, including in Template:IrishCities. Let's try to avoid a Gdansk/Danzig position where one side tries to obliterate any mention of the other's preferred name even for historical events. --Henrygb 01:34, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Both terms should be used equally for this article.
For other articles (and I believe this is the main issue), it's up to the context. Most articles mentioning Derry, it has to be said, will be discussing the Republic or all of Ireland. So I think there is indeed probably a trend towards more use of "Derry" than "Londonderry". I don't think we can do anything about this. Perhaps a compromise would be to ONLY use Londonderry for clearly Northern Ireland topics?
zoney ♣ talk 08:55, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have renamed the city "Derry" in the Template:IrishCities for consistancy - its not a matter of been pushy - the template is intended to be prominant and should use the accepted term - otherwise it is only a matter of time before it is reverted again - ultimately, as well, why cause anymore confusion? - i find the term "Londonderry" for the county both acceptable and historically preferred - lets not get to the point where we must slavishly use both terms to satisfy all sides - keep wiki professional Djegan 19:58, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
But the list in Template:IrishCities has Newry as a city because it received a city charter as Newry in 2002, even though it was and is in the Newry and Mourne District Council area. Not very confusing and quite professional. Template:Northern_Ireland has Derry because Derry City Council is the local authority name, in the same way as it has Newry and Mourne; Template:IrishCities should have Londonderry because that the city's name in its charter, in the same way as it has Newry. --Henrygb 00:12, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The town/city of Newry has never been anything but Newry, official or otherwise. "Newry and Mourne" is a district council, some might argue equivalent to a "county", but it has never been a town or city name.
In the case of Derry, it is different. There is Derry (or Londonderry) the city, County Derry or Londonderry, and the Londonderry district council area. Three distinct entities, of which Derry is acceptable for the first two (though we have the article at County Londonderry for the second item).
As regards Template:IrishCities, I can see that being an area of disagreement. As the Template:CountiesofIreland box uses Londonderry, I think it is fair enough that the city box uses Derry (by analogy to the article titles).
zoney ♣ talk 09:25, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Actually the Derry City district council area, which includes the City of Londonderry.
Ultimately I have no problem weither "Derry" or "Londonderry" are used, only consistancy should be the deciding factor - the name of the article should be used in prominant areas insofair as is possible - certainly the form [[Derry|Londonderry]] should not be used - decide on and keep one title, apply it consistantly in [[Template:IrishCities]], [[Category:Cities in Ireland]] and other important lists - similarily recommend the term "County Londonderry", whilst this term has no legal status currently it has a historical value Djegan 19:36, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The compromise was in fact for both Derry and Londonderry to be used in the article, and that the title would be Derry. The alternative would be a district page called Derry or Derry City and a city page called Londonderry - I think a single article is better than what has happened at Lichfield and Lichfield (district). There are plenty of links to County Derry, and maybe others to [[County Londonderry|County Derry]]; no doubt whoever wrote those articles thought it would be clearer to do that. But I still think that the city's name should be Londonderry in a list of Irish or UK cities. --Henrygb 22:20, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Fair enough that we are trying to distinguish between article usage and title - but still in the interest of simplicity, continuity, and professionalism it seams a good idea to accept one term for the city and whilst not insisting that this be used in every instance certainly do not use redirects uneccessarily - such as [[Derry|Londonderry]] - irrespective of what is decided here and now it is innevitable that this question will be reopened within 2-3 months by someone else - as to city and distict status maybe two articless are whats needed, but this is not what this discussion is primarily about - it is about the "City of Londonderry". Djegan 12:22, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
No, people did not standardise on "Derry" because that is the district name. People standardised on Derry as the city name too. There is no reason to consider splitting the page, as I would say that both would have to be Derry still (Derry the city, and Derry the district). I disagree with Djegan above though, I believe there are plenty of places where using [[Derry|Londonderry]] is perfectly warranted (Northern Ireland articles for example). However, I suggest that the city remains "Derry" in the city list box, as we already have "Londonderry" in the county list box. zoney ♣ talk 12:59, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute revisited

I`m of Irish descent, and I certainly don`t call the city by the name of "Londonderry" in conversation... for one, it just takes too long. All the same, the city and county of Londonderry are part of the UK, and according to the United Kingdom government the name of these two places are "Londonderry" - there is no debate here. Maybe before the changes to Articles 2 and 3 we could debate the idea under the notion that these cities are part of Ireland and that the Irish naming stands. But from now on, unless the city applies to have the city`s name changed officially... it is Londonderry. --Ce garcon 05:11, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, even officially speaking, it's not that simple - please read the earlier comments, and the page itself. The administrative district is "Derry City", which includes the "City of Londonderry". Meanwhile the city council is now "Derry City Council". Also the fact that Derry is probably the most common term for the city does count - regardless of the official royal title. We have discussed all these issues previously, with the end result of keeping the city at "Derry", but the traditional county at "County Londonderry" – which fits the reasoning above, and also happens to be a reasonable compromise. The actual article uses both terms throughout, and the two forms are both used elsewhere in Wikipedia as appropriate. zoney ♣ talk 12:05, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
These issues have been agreed previous - in summary using the correct or official name in wikipedia is not absolutely neccessary - very often their may be reason to use a more common, but incorrect form and the usual consensus is that this can only be overridden is where is it likely to cause offence - something which is quite unlikely. Djegan 09:46, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] City motto

Anyone know what this is? Googling is no help.

And yes, that is the city crest. Grim indeed.

zoney ♣ talk 00:36, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It all in an image [1]! Djegan 09:11, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As far as local knowledge goes, the fort was Greencastle Fort in Donegal - just across the border and the skeleton was a DeBurca who was starved to death in the Fort. However during the grim days of Gerrymander in Derry people used to say that the skeleton was 'a Catholic waiting on the Council housing list'.... Derry humour eh? Bear in mind these were days of maybe 20 sleeping in a room in the Bogside with TB rife...SeanMack 17:51, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recent developments, name

It has been reported [2]] that Derry City Council are inquirying into the legal status of the city name. Djegan 00:44, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I assume that was not an April Fool's joke, but the link leads to a blank page. Personally, I think splitting up this page has been a mistake - it now carries less information than numberous US township articles. --Henrygb 15:36, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Actually it was several days before that date that I came across the story, I will try to verify it in coming days and weeks. I agree with you on splitting this page, it was a severe backward step without doubt. Djegan 16:14, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yep backward step, agreed... SeanMack 16:18, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As an aside, I saw a note in the Sunday Times that the city council has taken the Department of the Environment to court over the city's name, so perhaps not an April Fool's? Alastairward 21:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Compromise

Some proposals (IMHO unsatisfactory) from compromise have been proposed here, but since both names are used (one offically and one by a majority of its citizens and the local authority whose district includes the city) why not call the article Derry/Londonderry to have no precendence (other than alphabetically) or even (London)Derry? Redirects from Derry and Londonderry can be made and there would be no controversy/naming POV in the article. Dainamo 16:16, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

The naming of articles is not a point of view issue, rather the relevant proceedure in this case, is naming conventions (common names).
Djegan 17:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Could somebody explain to me why the people of Doire/Derry cannot just vote to change the name the coloniser put on their place? It is absolutely ridiculous that outsiders can determine the name of their place. It is time for the natives to wrest control of how they are represented from these British and their record-breaking egos.

  • This squabble is fiercest among the natives, dear boy. Outsiders and former colonisers are not particularly bothered what the place calls itself. -- RHaworth 10:24, 2005 July 20 (UTC)
IMHO it is a question of identity. All too often the problems in NI are viewed as a problem of religion. The two religion groupings closely mirror the two identities but it is not quite a 100% match. Catholics (in general) view themselves as Irish - in this context they are happy enough to accept the anglicised version of the Irish name Doire to Derry, but Londonderry is generally a step too far. Whereas the faction loyal to the Queen prefers to reflect their British identity and attitudes to the Union in the name 'Londonderry' (mostly protestant). If you think this naming issue is a problem have a look at the parades issue... Two competing and mutually exclusive identities battling for their voice to be heard. To reflect on the point made by RHaworth, many times, the ex-colonisers like to look on with part-disdain part-confusion wondering what to do with these two squabbling 'children' without really accepting the fact that plantation is the direct cause of the problem. Plantation was a very succesful political tool to divide and conquer the 'troublesome' North, however as is apparent, the inhabitants of Northern Ireland still live through the pain that this has caused for over 300 years and counting. When hot potatoes like the naming of 'stroke city' and loyalist parades are no longer an issue, there will be no need for third parties, paramilitaries and armies in Northern Ireland. At this point in time 'the end game' has not occurred. Until it does if one side gets a small win the other sees it as a big loss. Until the identity problem is resolved this will always be the case. Some have hoped that this will go away if those in NI could see themselves as Europeans - neither exclusively British nor Irish, but I fear that day is a long way off.... As I said it's just an opinion.... SeanMack 10:54, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
At the risk of getting off the point, I'd like to point out that the 'identity' issue is a symptom of the problems in the north, not it's cause. Too often I've been asked by interested foreigners "Why would religion cause such violence?". I think it's best to view the problems there as a result of the political transition which the UK as a whole went through in at the turn of the 19th-20th centuries. Remember that until then, all over the UK, only people owning property could vote. Universal enfranchment did not come to Northern Ireland until the 1970's. Both poor protestants and poor catholics were equally excluded, and indeed the 1960's civil rights protests were a united front of poor northern Irelanders. However, the powers that be in the north had a tool which was unavailable to British leaders. They were able to exploit the ancient social fault-line that ran through NI society from the days of the plantations, and skillfully used it to divide the civil rights movement. By the late 1960's the artificially created 'identity' issue had split the civil rights movement completely, and layed the foundation for the troubles. Seabhcán 11:31, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree Seabhcán and I don't think it's off point. One only has to look at how Paisley has skillfully played this game to see how and dangerously it can be used for political gain. However I don't know that I would categorically state it was a symptom and not a cause. If I can stray a little? An abused person becomes a heroin addict and gets into crime. Is the heroin addiction a cause of their criminalty or a symptom of their abuse. Probably the moral is that with NI there are no simple black and white analogies and answers without looking back in history to see why we are where we are today. However the danger then becomes an identification with one side over the other in a situation that is most easily described as a tribal problem. The problem with NPOV and an encyclopedia is that it ignores the fact that with every divided issue there are two equally valid histories. The challenge for historians is to tease out the truth behind the headlines and view the present within the various contexts that have been forces in shaping the world as it is today. Maybe this is way off the point, but on the streets on Northern Ireland, for me, it is predominantly the working classes who are currently defining the politcal headlines, where you may as well substitute Celtic and Rangers for the political parties. Nowadays we have the DUP and Sinn Fein becoming more powerful. People are becoming more extreme and divided. Identity to me is *one* of the causes of divisions in the North and whilst we have a 'them and us' mentality there will never be any movement forward no matter what the politicians in Eire, Britain or the USA wish (never mind the middle classes in NI...). Once again just my opinion, not sure how relevant it will be to people looking in? SeanMack 15:36, 20 July 2005 (UTC) ...Let's not mention 'Danny Boy' versus 'Londonderry Air'...  ;o) SeanMack 15:52, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
That would be Danny Boy (written by an Englishman) and Londonderry Air (written by an unknown Irish person) --Henrygb 22:52, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I made the point in jest as there is a fairly complex history and I have been in company where one person has insisted it is Danny Boy and another insisted it was the Londonderry Air in a vain attempt at claiming ownership 'for their own side'.... SeanMack 11:42, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Name dispute

I have attempted to put this article at Londonderry/Derry but someone put #REDIRECT Derry on it. Can an administrator please do this?

It was proposed below that Derry be renamed and moved to Londonderry/Derry -195.188.51.5 11:32, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Score(Keep:22|Move:2)

  • Will we find some people will want Londonderry/Derry but others will insist on Derry/Londonderry? -- SeanMack 11:42, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
  • I should not have to explain this but … I did the redirect because the page at Londonderry/Derry was a copy-and-paste of Derry. This is strictly forbidden in Wiki. The copy and paste operation would have destroyed an history of over 100 edits which have been applied to this article. I do not see any consensus for a move on this page. If the consensus is for a name change, an Admin must be called in to delete Londonderry/Derry and move the article on to that title.
My personal vote is keep the article at "Derry". -- RHaworth 14:16, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
  • keep as Derry because that is what the City Council says [3] --ClemMcGann 14:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, If we spent as much time contributing to the article as we did arguing about its name, it would be the best on wikipedia. Perhaps the solution is to have two parallel articles, Derry and Londonderry, edited by seperate people. Then, someday when we can agree and after hell has frozen over, the two articles, like the two halves of the city, can be merged. Seabhcán 14:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
How about The city formally/currently known as Derry/Londonderry or The City known to some as Derry, known to others as Londonderry, yet to most, unknown. Seabhcán 00:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Do you mean formally or formerly? -- 213.123.195.207 00:43, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Oops, -formeraly. I like Jonto's suggestion of 'derry. Seabhcán 21:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, I laughed with the hell freezing over bit though. I did think for a second that the 2 pages idea was a goer but then I thought about what would happen. We would have one page of murals in the bogside and another page of Apprentice boys and sieges..... What would people link to? Only link famous Catholics to the Derry page? I think the pre-agreed compromise of Derry for the City and Londonderry for the county is the most workable. However this revert issue will be difficult to resolve. Even if a compromise is agreed now, new people are always coming online. Perhaps a disclaimer at the beginning of each article stating why wiki has chosen the name would help people realise that this is now old ground in wiki and we would be better spending our efforts adding value to the article as Seabhcán stated already. Perhaps the relevant pages could start by outlining what compromises have already been reached within wiki. Maybe one of those nice html coloured boxes? If people revert after that they are the sort that will vandalise anyway... SeanMack 17:39, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Someone has been through this before I reckon... [4] the title of the page is <title>Employment Agency - Derry / Londonderry Northern Ireland</title>
  • Keep, The official name is not a absolute requirement when deciding on naming, as I have said previously (above) the requirement is for the most common name and Derry is the most common name. Djegan 18:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Change, it is widely known by each of these names, by Derry here, by Londonderry in England and by both in the city itself.Notjim 20:46, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
  • keep It is not known in England by Londonderry. It is known by both names. Internationally it is mainly known as Derry. Derry as the most widely recognised name internationally should be used. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 21:40, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Change Having the name "Derry" as the article's name implies a POV that this is the official name - the official name with royal status is "Londonderry", and the name voted by councillors is "Derry". The change removes all implications of POV, and will prevent future edit wars. What parts of the world have you been visiting to make such a bold statement that "Internationally it is mainly known as Derry"? - I would highly dispute this. On the overwhelming majority of international maps it is known as "Londonderry". I know from experience that in as far away as Japan it is known as "Londonderry"Jonto 02:53, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
the official name with royal status is "Londonderry" Actually Buckingham Palace has made clear that the Queen is not entering the debate and that the name of the city is a matter for the local council. And yes it is known internationally as Derry. That is a statement of fact. Only a small minority of people internationally call it Londonderry. (It reminds me of a unionist friend of mine who explained in detail how the name of the city is "Londonderry" and then went on all night talking about "Derry". He was mortified when I pointed out to him that even he wasn't using the name he insisted belonged to the place!) FearÉIREANN\(caint) 04:01, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes I knew about that issue with the Queen not wanting to get involved, but I am not sure as to your claim that it was said that it "is a matter for the local council" - a source would be good. Perhaps "royal" was an unfortunate word to use, but in terms of the country "Londonderry" is official. I didn't say it wasn't ever known internationally by Derry. Your claim that "Only a small minority of people internationally call it Londonderry" is certainly extremely bold, and I would like to know what you are basing this on - perhaps recent trip to Boston - I don't know?? Do a google image search for maps of Northern Ireland, and I think you'll find a very different outcome.
You also misunderstand the main unionist position - most unionists don't oppose the term "Derry" at all, and use it simply because it is shorter with less syllables (actually meaning "'derry"). What unionists oppose is what they see as the petty nationalist determination to remove the word "London" from the title at all costs, and the complete refusal to use "Londonderry". The term "Derry" is also contained in the lyrics to The Sash.
Jonto 04:34, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I don't think that the outcome for this one matters too much given the "compromise". However, apart from preventing edit wars, I think that "Londonderry/Derry" is much more clear as to where we are referring to - I mean, where else in the world is there a "Londonderry/Derry" apart from in Northern Ireland!! I do also recall from driving on the road from Belfast to Dublin that there were signposts to another place called "Derry" in the Republic - this is not even mentioned on the disambiguation page!! Jonto 16:00, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Jonto having gone gray haired when driving in Dublin and it's environs in the past are you sure this wasn't just the usual abysmal sign posting? ;-) However while we're at it there is an island off the coast of Chile called Londonderry as far as I remember, yep found it, just did the obligatory google - http://islands.unep.ch/IXE.htm#323. SeanMack 16:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Hehe lol - could well have been the bad signs, though it wasn't actually as far south as Dublin - I think it was somewhere between Dundalk and Drogheda (or aroundabout there). That chile one should probably be added to the LD disambig page then. The problem with clarity (if someone can confirm the other "Derry" that I'm sure I haven't imagined!) is that there is more than one "Derry" in Ireland! Jonto 16:38, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
I've found 2 "Derry"s in the Republic - one in (Sligo and one in Wexford (the latter may be a river). Though, this doesn't explain the signs that I saw on the Belfast-Dublin road going in the Dublin direction (maybe that sign was actually referring to "Londonderry/Derry" - I guess that's Southerners for you if it was! :P ;-) ). All this confusion now makes me actually strongly support the change to "Londonderry/Derry" for the sake of absolute clarity and nothing else. Jonto 17:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Or some 'Londonderry' boys thought they would turn the sign around to point to Dublin to confuse the poor 'Derry' boys? :-)) SeanMack 17:38, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
lol :-) Good one! Now that I think about it even more, I'm sure that I've actually stared at that sign (or series of signs) on more than one occasion and wondered where the hell they were referring to!!Jonto 17:47, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Here's a thought, the official road from Dublin to Derry may be that 'Bastard Road From Hell' diagonally across the county towards Donegal. If you saw the sign around Dundalk it may have been telling you to go South towards Dublin then take the BRFM to Donegal/Derry. (?) I always thought Donegal was about as neglected by Dublin as Derry is by Belfast....
I think that must be what it is - I see a road that goes diagonally NW south of Dundalk to Londonderry via Monahagn and Omagh. I was really sad and using encarta world atlas measured the distance of 92.5 miles taking this road from Dundalk - the equivalent distance was 108 miles if you take the route east of Lough Neagh. I've never been along that road, but from the sounds of the "BRFH" it would be better go go east of Lough Neagh due to the better roads!! The Republic's Donegal link must be the answer.Jonto 19:36, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps the "Londonderry boys" thought that the "BRFH" was enough punishment for the "Derry boys" to endure :) Jonto.
After taking my own advice and looking up maps for Northern Ireland and Ireland on google images, I am now of the slightly modified opinion (again) that the article should definitely not be called "Derry" due to the vastly overwhelming number of image results containing "Londonderry". Added to the confusion caused by there being more than one "Derry" in Ireland, and my own personal confusion caused by the lack of clarity of the term, I will either support "Londonderry" or "Londonderry/Derry" as the article's title. The council's administrative area is already officially called "Derry City Council" (see the Template:Northern_Ireland page on wikipedia where "Derry" is also used) and the airport is already called "City of Derry Airport" - these are two areas where the name "Londonderry" has already been compromised and already reflected on wikipedia, and therefore to leave the city's (note not council's but city's) name as "Derry" (unofficial), rather than using the official name is not in my opinion really a fair "compromise" at all. It also, sadly, crosses my mind in a very cynical way as to the actual reasons why people are voting in the way they are on this issue Jonto 19:36, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

As for the road sign issue..didn';t you ever think that a Derry sign may be facing Dublin, becasue you may have to get off the motorway, in order to turn around (turn north) and the sighn is telling you that you have to drive south to get the turnoff?

  • Keep Using both names as the article title is simply unencyclopedic. Derry is where the article is, and there are enough redirects outside and statements within the article explaining the dual name. And there is plenty of precedent on Wikipedia (See Yoghurt, Gasoline) explaining why article titles only have one primary name, including those with which both names are quite common. In this case, the official name wins out. ℬastique▼talk 03:39, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
"In this case, the official name wins out." - Which is the official name??(Londonderry)Jonto 05:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Continue with the compromise (i.e. keep this article at Derry and the county at County Londonderry for reasons given above, use both in articles, and keep calm. One of the many problems is that depending on your POV, your view of what the official name of the place actually is now will vary: district council v. city charter. It is very 20th century to worry too much about it; they did not before, and we should not now. --Henrygb 04:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep current situation. Editor should have asked before trying to move, but would probably still not have got agreement. – Smyth\talk 10:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Current situation (city article at Derry, but County Londonderry) makes sense and is a reasonable compromise to boot. The arguments for city article at Derry have all been gone through, but paramount among them are the facts that it is the most widely used term (even if just as a shorter form than Londonderry), both in the city and elsewhere, and that it is used by the local authorities. zoney ♣ talk 12:09, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Continue with the compromise. Only because the compromise of Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the county seems the most reasonable situation for now. – AxSkov (T) 13:44, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep at Derry - see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity). -- Naive cynic 15:27, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Hmm... it seems that the official name is still Londonderry, and the city council hasn't changed it, as I mistakenly believed. So, the article should be at Londonderry. Of course, I still oppose move to any bastardized form, such as Londonderry/Derry. It's silly and ugly. -- Naive cynic 17:59, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep CGorman 15:39, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep tpower 20:37, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
    It is worth noting that many of the "Keep" votes result from a little lobbying campaign among Irish editors by Djegan. --Henrygb 03:15, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
    • I have not lobbied anyone - I have written a message on the talk page of several wikipedians that I regularily work with informing them of the vote. I have not requested them to vote in any particular fashion - they are free to vote what way they want. If I have done anything wrong then please cite the relevant rule or proceedure. Djegan 08:49, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
      • You may not have requested them to vote in a certain way. However, I think that Henrygb has quite a point here. All (or a majority) of editors contacted were from southern Ireland (I assume this from looking at their user pages). This has distorted the geographical variety of opinion on this issue (The Republic of Ireland is known to exclusively use the term "Derry" and usually to have a mild nationalist bias). This is a problem I feel with many Irish/Northern Irish articles on wikipedia. In future if you are going to contact members for a vote, it would be wiser to contact members from a wider variety of geographical regions and political viewpoints.Jonto 00:14, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep (i.e. Continue with the compromise -- keep this article at Derry and the county at County Londonderry, as suggested above). It's not as if either existing article is attempting to deny the existence of alternative names, and each surely already includes enough caveats without our needing to resort to "double-headed" article names. -- Picapica 18:18, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment - This is an incredibly troublesome issue, but it seems to me that the best might be an article on the chartered city called "Londonderry," and an article on the council area called "Derry City Council" or whatever. The logic behind the current city/county compromise is that the county is "officially" called Londonderry, and the city "officially" Derry. But this is not true. The Council Area is the only thing which is "officially" called Derry, and I don't see why the incorporated city ought to be treated differently from the county. That being said, the current compromise has worked for a long time, and I'd rather not rock the boat on something so controversial. I certainly oppose a move to Londonderry/Derry, which is noxious. john k 18:35, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep stick with the current compromise - city article at Derry, but County Londonderry. -- Lochaber 09:24, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep under current name. Compromise is not a name in widespread use. Warofdreams 13:34, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep The stroke form is only useful as a redirect to the dispute article, as per Stroke City. To use "Derry" for the city and "County Londonderry" for the county is the fairest compromise. It's known as "equality of misery"! --Red King 14:41, 25 July 2005 (UTC)--Kiand 18:08, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. I think I remember advocating Derry, and County Londonderry ages ago. It seems a reasonable compromise. The articles have to be somewhere, and Derry/Londonderry still could be taken by loyalists as giving 'Derry' priority. I'm not sure if the council area and the City cover different areas, although clearly the urban area (and possibly small-c city) is much smaller. Does the Lord-Lieutenant for the City cover the entire council area or just the old county borough? Morwen - Talk 14:54, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
    • The council area and city should be all in the same area (certainly the "City of Londonderry" does not exist as an administrative area distinct from "Derry City Council"). A very quick google leads me to believe that county and county boroughs form the basis for the Lord-Lieutenant and these should be the pre 1973 (district council) reforms - thus a Lord-Lieutentant for each of the cities of Belfast and Londonderry and the six counties of Northern Ireland. Djegan 17:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. This is an emminently reasonable compromise. Personally, it wasn't till I was almost grown up that I knew Derry had a second name - until then I had always assumed the tune was in fact the 'London derriere', and thought it must be to do with how the accompanying dance went!Blorgina 16:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Extremely Strong Keep at Derry. --Kiand 18:08, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep status quo. --Gabriel Beecham/Kwekubo 02:07, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
    • The vote is closed. The petition to move was lost. See article history --Red King 08:50, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] City of Derry

The name City of Derry strikes me as being a non-existent entity. It is the authority that holds the City Charter, which is Derry City Council making the district around the old walled city the City of Londonderry. Anything named Derry cannot be a city because it does not own a city charter. In it's current form this article is incorrect. Most people in Rochester still consider it a city but that doesn't change the reality that it isn't. It doesn't matter what popular opinion is in the city. They probably all want to stop paying taxes but it doesn't change the law. While you can call the article whatever you want the city name remains legally Londonderry. josh 03:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

What can you do? Its is the most commonly used term for the city. Used by half the population of Northern Ireland and a majority of the people from the city. :: Keith :: 18:35, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

You can start with no allowing popular opinion take priority over fact. Calling it City of Derry is equivalent to calling the council Londonderry City Council. I'm not concerned about what name is seen to be premoted although I prefer Derry over the hijacked version. The problem is that using the term City of Derry is unencyclopidic and condones the POV of the nationalists. Using City of Londonderry doesn't condone the unionist POV it is just the current status that coincides with it. josh 22:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

The article only says "City of Derry" when talking about the airport and the rugby club. This is deliberate. --Henrygb 23:05, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

The infobox is titled City of Derry. The sentence The name of the city is specified by its Royal Charter as Londonderry, and many unionists continue to call it Londonderry. also implies that the name Londonderry has been repealed by the councils decision to call itself Derry City Council. The article seems to purposely avoid the fact that the offical name of the city is Londonderry. By all means use Derry but it has to be made clear that while Derry is the popular name, Londonderry is the official one. josh 00:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I hadn't spotted the infobox, so I have changed it (similarly that for County Londonderry). I think The name of the city is specified by its Royal Charter as Londonderry is clear enough as to the legal position of the chartered city. And the photo of the walls could perhaps say Londonderry in the caption. But the article title is fixed by the compromise above. --Henrygb 17:01, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
That seems fair enough now. One point, the city walls no longer designate the official city. The council has the city charter so the city is the district that the council controls (see Leeds and City of Leeds to see stupid it gets). You can call the area within the city walls anything you want, including the old city of Derry as belive that is what it use to be. josh 17:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Even then you need to be careful: the city is said (by the council and the article) to be Northern Ireland's second largest city; this depends on looking just at the primary urban area since the district has a smaller population than than the district of Lisburn City Council. The walled city was sometimes called "Derry" as in the siege or the Apprentice Boys, but it was built across the river from the previous Derry, and was (I think) officially Londonderry from its construction. --Henrygb 22:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)


I think I got bit confused there. I thought they were just built around it. As for the old district/urban area chestnut I know all about that living in a metopoliton borough. The government successfully cocked up all decent definitions of city/town boundries during the 70s.

[edit] Shouldn't we go with the official name?

It is my understanding that the official name of the city is Londonderry. All nationalist and unionist preference aside, should we not be naming the article to fit the official name? A little web research informs me of the following:

  • According to this Google Map of Northern Ireland, it's called Londonderry.
  • Derryvisitor.com, which names the city as Derry City, admits in its FAQ here that Londonderry is the official name. "The name was originally Derry but was changed to Londonderry during the Plantation of Ulster, as the new city was built by London guilds. Both the city and county are called Derry/Londonderry, with Derry being used in some formats and Londonderry in others." Another entry in the same FAQ expands on this. "The official name of the town is Londonderry and that is why it is called Londonderry on the maps. Locally it is referred to as Derry and the City Council is also called Derry City Council. The name Londonderry was granted under a charter issued by James 1 of England in 1613 as part of the Plantation of Ulster. Under the Charter the Guilds of London were granted the area previously call Derry and therefore the change in name."
  • A BBC news article refers to the city as Londonderry.
  • According to the Derry City Council's webpage, the city's council is referred to as Derry City Council. However, this is not the same thing as the city having the official name of Derry. Certainly it is called Derry in addition to Londonderry, and with a nationalist population majority I'm sure the council themselves prefers the name Derry. However, they have not officially renamed their city or their county - at least not yet.

While I am sure that a significant number of people (perhaps even a majority) refer to the city as Derry, the official name of the city remains Londonderry. Wikipedia might cover video games,TV series and websites, but it is still an encyclopaedia, and is relied upon for factual information by a great many people. The name of the article must reflect the official status of things. --Jonathan Drain 01:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[5]

Generally, Wikipedia doesn't following official names slavishly. You might find Wikipedia:Naming conventions interesting reading. For example, note that the articles East Timor and Rhode Island are at those places rather than the full name, and Kiev has remained at that spelling despite the instience of quite a lot of Ukranians who are demanding we re-spell it Kyiv.
Whichever it is at people are going to be upset, so the approach we have to take is to say 'it doesn't matter where it is at', and then just pick one. I think it would a more productive use of time for anyone arguing about the name, for them to expand the article, which is not actually very good. Morwen - Talk 01:35, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
There currently are no naming conventions for city names, nor any relevant [conventions for Northern Ireland]. You've picked a bad example with Kiev since in this case it's primarily the locals who insist on Derry despite a more official designation.
If people are going to be upset either way, arbitrarily choosing one is not the correct option - Wikipedia has a policy on neutral point of view which comes into play here. Neutrally, the city is "Londonderry, also called Derry". If we name it primarily Derry we can be accused of nationalist or Irish bias, which Wikipedia aims to avoid. If we name it primarily Londonderry, we can at least defend against claims of unionist or British bias on the grounds that Londonderry is the official name according to the current law, and we are able to cite numerous authoritative sources which back up this fact. --Jonathan Drain 15:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Taking the point of view of a minority, which is what calling the city "Londonderry" would be, and not the majority is undefendable bias, however. Its not going to be changed, simple as that. --Kiand 16:24, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
That's a bold statement, but claiming the name Derry to be the official one is contradicting a four hundred year old Royal Charter, Encarta, Google Maps, and pretty much any reliable source with the exception of the nationalist majority of the city itself, which is hardly surprising. With respect, since I note from your user page that you're from the Republic, I can't expect you to be unbiased in this issue. --Jonathan Drain 16:45, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
That last comment pretty much kills off any chance of presuming you were basing your suggestion on NPOV concerns. Obviously your concern is to push one community's political agenda. Your snide comment has just blown your attempt to change the name out of the water. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 18:41, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to know where I can buy these Wikipedia cannons which are so powerful as to simply declare opponents' arguments "blown out of the water". :) Seriously, though, I apologise if my comment came off as overly harsh. I consider myself neither unionist nor nationalist and do not aim to push either agenda, but if you suspect that I'm requesting the name change for reasons other than cold technical accuracy, you can see from my website's whois details that I live in a nationalist area. Seriously, we have like Irish street signs and all here.
I would argue that the city should be called Derry, if for no other reason than that the majority of its inhabitants, its own city council and most people in the Republic would like to see it that way. If nothing else, it would finally solve this name dispute! However, I'm a big fan of technical accuracy, and would prefer that the article go by the city's official name. --Jonathan Drain 01:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, when did anyone make the claim that "Derry is the official one"? Morwen - Talk 17:37, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
"...you're from the Republic, I can't expect you to be unbiased in this issue..."; I am from "the Republic" as well and I have always insisted that County Londonderry be given prominance in articles and not be rolled back to "County Derry". You can hardly claim be be neutral when you make such an across the board statement as the one you made regarding a group of people? Djegan 19:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
My apologies for causing offence, Mr Djegan. What I meant to say was that most people in the South call it Derry, which for them has always been the official name, and as such I would expect most southerners to oppose the name Londonderry regardless of any Royal Charter. --Jonathan Drain 01:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I seriously oppose being called a "Southerner" when I'm from futher north than most points in Northern Ireland are. --Kiand 02:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

For what its worth, the Council website is WWW.DERRY.GOV.UK. The FAQ doesn't even mention the alternate name. My understanding is that the Council want to get their version recognised, but Stormont refuses to do so and Whitehall won't change the status quo. So it seems that there is a nice touch of mental gymnastics to reach compromise. The legal name is Londonderry, but only the name Derry will be used. So both sides are satisfied and both sides are dissatisfied. BtW, I notice that BBC articles always manage to use both forms in every article. So far, every Wiki article does too: the petty dispute seems to be which name shall be the main article and which shall be the redirect article? The present arrangement, where we have one of each (for the city and for the county), has been seen as equally unfair and the majority of people have accepted it without too many revert wars. I trust that anyone who wants to re-open the debate has read all the relevant articles going back at least 1000 years. One needs to learn the flickers of the eye that allows people to pass each other in the street without bumping. This is one. --Red King 23:07, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Just to correct you there, it's derrycity.gov.uk, not derry.gov.uk. That only means that Derry's the council's name. To be fair, though, that the council has taken the name Derry is a sure sign that not only are more people accepting the name's precedence, but that the name will sooner or later be officially recognised as such. Perhaps I should simply wait for the official name change to fit Wikipedia! --Jonathan Drain 01:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is guided in cases of naming disputes by most common name. The most common name used for the city is Derry. Even the Unionist community only intermittently say "Londonderry". So under Wikipedia Manual of Style rules the page has to go at Derry. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 02:12, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Yet again, the "most common name" is brought up - in this case the most common name worldwide (i.e. on maps) is NOT being used. It may be the most common name within the city, but outside the city it is most certainly not. Keeping the name as "Derry" is most certainly implying a nationalist/Irish POV.Jonto 19:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Jonathan has a very valid point about other contributors being from the Republic. We must remember that Jtdirl, Kiand, Djegan, and Red King are all contributors from the Republic of Ireland and will inherently have at least an Irish bias (if not also a nationalist one). This point is again being ignored. I recall there was a vote a while ago (along with a lobbying campaign by Djegan) where a very large proportion of the voters ended up being from the Republic. jtdirl - you are very quick to assume bad faith, (something I note that you seem to do as a habit by also looking at your talk page) and seem to use the "NPOV" clause as one to back up your own POV. Perhaps this issue would be best solved by input by those from outside of Ireland.Jonto 19:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

The official name is far too controversial to be used as the only name here. As mentioned, it was called "Londonderry" because it was colonised. The displaced people are now the majority in the city, and as such it is insensitive to them to just use "Londonderry". Also, the British Tory government in the 80's allowed the city council to call itself "Derry City Council". Equally, Unionists would resent it just being called Derry on wikipedia. Therefore, in the spirit of compromise call it Derry/Londonderry. Otherwise wikipedia's impartiality is under question. I would point out too that the Loyalist Apprentice Boys's official name is "Apprentice Boys of Derry", so they don't seem to mind calling it Derry sometimes. - Peter O'Connell

[edit] Image removed

I just removed (and deleted) an image of Nadine Coyle from this article. It had no copyright information, the uploader's only contributions were uploading the image and putting it in this article, and an image of Nadine Coyle licensed under CC-SA exists at the Commons. If this page's regular contributors believe that an image of Coyle belongs in this article, the free image article is http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Girl_Aloud_1.jpg . Thanks for understaning. Jkelly 20:06, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] i cringe...

Is it just me because every time I think of this article I cringe at that "Derry/Londonderry" title in the info table, it is uneccessary and should simply be "Derry" as per the article title. Djegan 19:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I accept your cringe is NPOV as you have said a similar thing at Talk:County_Londonderry. I don't feel strongly about it, but I felt that D/LD and CLD/CD were quick summaries of the articles pointing out the issue to people who do not normally read blocks of text. --Henrygb 22:24, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
This notation is widely used itrw to keep the peace. Unless you want to start yet another revert war, I advise you leave it alone. I'm afraid, in the scale of things, your aesthetic sensibilities are going to have to take a very poor second. --Red King 12:00, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Map of Gerrymandered Derry

Does anybody have a map of Derry city before and after gerrymandering with information on votes versus representation? Thanks.

A CAIN document has a 1965 Catholic civil rights perspective. The map on page 3 has the 3 county borough wards shaded grey (North, South and Waterside) with representation figures on page 8. (As a passing comment, the document switches regularly between "Derry" and "Londonderry".) From 1973 the new district included the city and rural areas and used STV for elections and stopped basing the local franchise on local taxpayers, and you can see the votes (but no maps) at ARK. Note that in 1973 the SDLP/nationalists/republicans combined won a majority of seats while the United Loyalists/Alliance combined won a majority of votes. --Henrygb 00:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Its "Derry" people

The majority of people min the city want to call it Derry, and the majority of people in the county want to call it County Derry. Therefore thats what they should be called.

The audacity of some people to claim that an Irish city and county shuld have an English prefix is startling.


[edit] Images on the article

Does anyone agree that the images require cleanup? I don't think that a photo of centra is really necessary to the article, and the craigavon bridge photo is way too close to the bottom of the page.

[edit] Location of city in map

Just to note that the Infobox pin coords produce different results for the red dot mrking the city in the district using different skins. I cannot see what to adjust in Template:Infobox Irish Place --Henrygb 10:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name change latest

The BBC on 7th April 2006 says that the name issue is now going to a court of English Common Law and will be settled there: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4887352.stm

Sorry I dont have an account so im not logging in! Firstly thought it would be great if Wikipedia refered to the city as stroke city and made a link from both derry and Londonderry to that page. The city is still officially called Londonderry but to continue calling it that when it is resented by many people to me seams like a daft idea. I wish both communities could come together and give the city a new name and it would save a lot of bother. Lets refer to the city from now on as stroke city on wikipedia and do away with the Nationalist/Unionist bias.

do we know what the council actually did in 2003 when it 'started the process'. reading the legislation there seems to be a general power to 'change the name of the district of the council' by application to the Minster (presumably now the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland). unlike the england and wales legislation there is no supermajority requirement. there are four things here
the name of the council: this has been changed, or they are acting as if it has changed
the name of the district: this may not have been changed
the name of the chartered city: this doesn't appear to have changed
the name of the county borough: this hasn't been changed
the name of the county: this neither

if the council is officially the 'mayor, burgess and aldermen of the city of londonderry' that implies the city and the district are considered one and the same entity, so wouldn't changing the name of the district be enough? 82.35.13.34 06:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

A couple of years ago, I had correspondence with Derry City Council. I was interested in their coat of arms: specifically that a harp had been reintroduced into the centre of the cross at the top of the arms.
I was told that the arms belong to the Corporation of the City of Londonderry (officially the Mayor, Alderman and Citizens of the City of Londonderry), which is a different legal entity than the administrative Derry City Council, although it has identical membership - and thus Derry City Council are permitted to use the arms of the City of Londonderry.
Unlike in England and Wales, local government reorganisation in 1973 specifically preserved the existing county boroughs , with the charter applying to the local government district in which it was included after October 31, 1973.
the following is from the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972:
Section 132. —
(3) On and after 31st October 1973 the charter of—
(a) the corporation of each county borough...
...shall have effect in relation to the district which includes the whole or the major part of the
borough as existing immediately before that date, but subject to any order made under section 134(2)
( c ).
Section 134(2)(c) deals with the number of aldermen and freedom of the borough.
As far as I can see there is no provision for the changing of the name of a county borough/city corporation in the Act. This in contrast to the corporations of municipal boroughs, whose charters could be adopted by a new local government district. in the case of these corporations, if the name of the district was changed, the name of the borough corporation was too.
The District Council changed the name of district to Derry effective from 7th May 1984, and according to the council the legal position is that the "City of Londonderry is presently administered by Derry City Council".
When the city council applied to have the harp returned to the city arms (it appeared in the earliest depictions, but was removed in later years), the letters patent contained the following wording:

"And wheras the City of Londonderry is presently administered by Derry City Council (the name of the council having been changed by virtue of an Order made pursuant to the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 on the eleventh day of April 1984 and effective from the Seventh day of May following) And wheras the Mayor, Aldermen and citizens of the City of Londonderry are desirous that the said Arms including the Harp may be borne with lawful authority by the said City And wheras Cathal Logue Town Clerk and Chief Executive Officer of Derry City Council hath on their behalf requested that we reconsider the premises and evidence for the use of the Arms..." (and so on). The letters patent certified the arms (with the harp) to the City of Londonderry. They are dated the Thirtieth day of April in the year of our Lord Two Thousand and Three. This is interesting, as every certificate I have seen from the College of Arms was dated using the monarch's regnal year. The Queen doesn't get a mention in the document, although the Kings of Arms making the grant are members of the Royal Household.

Anyhoo, the upshot of all this is (as far as I understand it):
  • The District was renamed Derry in 1984
  • The Council was renamed Derry City Council at the same time
  • The City of Londonderry's charter extends to the entire District of Derry
  • There is no mechanism for changing the name of the city in the 1972 legislation
  • This means that the "District of Derry" and "City of Londonderry" are identical in area
  • The "Derry City Council" and "Mayor, Aldermen and Citizens of the City of Londonderry" have the same membership.

It also means we have to replace the arms image. Lozleader 16:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

That makes sense, albietl a convoluted sort : the article needs to make clear that the district name changed, not just the name of the council. Also, there is still the county borough of Londonderry to consider, and its Lieutenancy : has this also been expanded to cover the entire Derry district or not? (*also ponders what Lisburn and Newry's letters patents look like : did it extend to the entire district of Lisburn? what about Newry which isn't the name of a district?) Morwen - Talk 17:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Convoluted is right. As far as Lisburn is concerned, The Change of District Name (Lisburn Borough) Order (Northern Ireland) 2002 [6] would infer that city status extends to the whole local government district. I have been wondering about Newry's LP as well, I will try and write to them under FOI and get the text (that's how I got the Londonderry info). Probably a similar situation to those of Stirling and Inverness, designating a particular area (the former urban district?). Lozleader 18:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Of course, legislation to create new districts defined under The Local Government (Boundaries) (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 may deal with the whole issue of city and borough charters, and inter alia the name of the city. Lozleader 08:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Official Usage

The article says in official use the city is always known as Londonderry, but as a citation it provides a BBC article. Should this be removed/or at least the citation changed?

Londonderry is the official name, so I think the title of this article should be Londonderry—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.219.8.6 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Derry GAA

From WP:IMOS The naming dispute can be discussed in the articles when appropriate. Which leads me to say that Owen Roe GAC other gaa clubs and its catergory should be all named derry as the GAA is mainly a nationalist past time and as stated here nationalist prefer the usage Derry . Would anyone agree ? (Gnevin 12:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC))

Disagree. The county is still called County Londonderry, that's just what it's called no matter whether someone being discussed is nationalist or not. However, the GAA calls the competing county Derry and that is the GAA naming convention as a name so that is fine, but the county itself, when being referred to as a geographical or political entity is County Londonderry. Ben W Bell talk 13:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
So when does the naming dispute can be discussed in the articles when appropriate. come into play it seems to me the this compromise is set in stone which is very stange for wiki where most thing are flexible (Gnevin 13:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC))
It's simply not appropriate for it to be discussed in every article where the county name comes up. In articles such as County Londonderry or the name dispute article then yes it is appropriate, but in most other cases it isn't appropriate to have another discussion of the issues. Ben W Bell talk 13:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] City side / Waterside

Does anyone else think we should make mention of the two main diferent area in Derry, ie the city side and Waterside? In fact we should probably have separate articles for both as well, but I think they defiently deserve a mention in this article as well.

What does everyone else think? (Derry Boi 10:21, 23 September 2006 (UTC))

I think we shoud mention the two areas in the article. I'm not sure about separate articles for both though. Cordless Larry 11:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Personally I think there should be an article about the two and their differences but not two of them. Also make sure we include a bit-sized form in the main Derry article, like we do with History. Butch-cassidy 13:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
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