Wikipedia talk:Deny recognition
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[edit] Special:Contributions for MfD!
Per WP:DENY. Or at least that's what would happen if WP:DENY became policy. The Special:Contributions pages of vandals violate WP:DENY technically, and hence if WP:DENY became policy, then the page would be deleted. All the categories, userpages, talk pages, and long term abuse pages relating to vandals have been deleted (per something that isn't a policy that I don't like). While I must admit I was looking through the categories mostly for humorous usernames and silly edits, deleting the long term abuse pages is just outrageous. The long term abuse pages are a method of notifying the good users about the vandal! That's why I hate WP:DENY- you've got to know what vandalism is in order to revert it! SupaStarGirl 13:30, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
- There was general community consensus to do so; for example, see the landmark decision Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Long term abuse/Willy on Wheels 2. Faulting an essay for expressing or formulating a popular rationale is illogical, since it is the community that interprets and enforces the suggestions given by the essay. Using the slippery slope to argue that deleting a vandal showcase will inevitably lead to the deletion of a core software feature is far-fetched. —{admin} Pathoschild 17:11, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Guideline
I would support making this a guideline (I do not think it should be a policy.) Who's with me?! Grandmasterka 22:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
- I don't actually think the division between widely-accepted essay and guideline is a big deal (less so than between policy/guideline), but I would support tagging it as a guideline. --Sam Blanning(talk) 23:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
- Absolutely not. Causes too many problems as is, and reduces community oversight. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
- I don't like this idea. It's too vague in its current form, it's previous precise form was unacceptable and caused all sorts of problems, and you don't need a guideline to run MfD's. --tjstrf talk 23:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
- No not a guideline, the part about deleting user pages is badly misguided. --JJay 00:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- It's not a big deal, but a widely accepted essay (if actionable) is by definition a guideline. Per JJay's objection, I've clarified the part about 'deleting user pages' to indicate such deletion goes via discussion on WP:MFD since we don't have a WP:CSD criterion for that. (Radiant) 09:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced it's widely accepted. It's definitely heavily pushed by a very vocal group of editors, but there's no evidence of wide acceptance. --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- There is evidence that we have MFDeleted pages that had no purpose other than to glorify or otherwise give attention to vandals, and that these deletions were not controversial. (Radiant) 12:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- We also have evidence that the deletion of such pages that have that information have caused major problems. See the recent resurrection of Brian G. Crawford as an example. WP:DENY should not be a guideline because of situations like that - the pages must be handled on their own merits, and rogues who choose to simply speedy them outright without discussion are not helping the situation. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Which resurrection would that be? I find no record on Brian G. Crawford. At any rate, you are arguing that this should not be iron-clad without exceptions, and I agree - that's why it shouldn't be policy. The whole idea of all guidelines is that they're never iron-clad without exceptions (see also WP:POL). (Radiant) 14:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Check on the issue w/Mr Spuky Toffee, who was later found to be a sock of BGC. User:JzG then made a post to AN/I to entertain the thought of unblocking him, which people endorsed until it was pointed out why he was blocked. This information used to be on his userpage before it was deleted under the auspices of WP:DENY. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Where to I check this issue? There is no User:Mr Spuky Toffee. It would really help if you would cite actual links. (Radiant) 14:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- User: Mr Spunky Toffee. I don't really have the time or energy for specific diffs from weeks ago on the issue or I would provide them. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- I fail to see the problem you allude to. Toffee's user page clearly shows he's a sock of Brian, and Brian's page clearly shows he is banned by the foundation, and neither page shows any record of information deleted per WP:DENY. Are you suggesting that this page states we delete the reasons why people are blocked? Because that's not what the page says, and neither is that what happened in this case you mention. (Radiant) 14:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Then you're not reading the logs very well. The userpage of BGC was deleted as the userpage of an indefintely blocked user. This is right in line with WP:DENY, and exactly why we need to get rid of this quickly, so otherwise great editors don't make that sort of mistake again. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- So? All the necessary information about BGC is still there and has not been deleted. The information deleted from the page consists of a bunch of userboxes and a list of AFDs he was involved in. In other words your claim that WP:DENY causes the deletion of useful information is false, QED. (Radiant) 15:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- It isn't false, actually, plenty of info on the talk page was removed as well. You can keep saying that, but it doesn't make it more true. I'll also point you to Cyde's deletion logs, who's arguably the biggest proponent of this and often speedies this information in a blatant disregard for anyone else, and the various MfD discussions where otherwise useful information has been removed. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- So? All the necessary information about BGC is still there and has not been deleted. The information deleted from the page consists of a bunch of userboxes and a list of AFDs he was involved in. In other words your claim that WP:DENY causes the deletion of useful information is false, QED. (Radiant) 15:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Then you're not reading the logs very well. The userpage of BGC was deleted as the userpage of an indefintely blocked user. This is right in line with WP:DENY, and exactly why we need to get rid of this quickly, so otherwise great editors don't make that sort of mistake again. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- I fail to see the problem you allude to. Toffee's user page clearly shows he's a sock of Brian, and Brian's page clearly shows he is banned by the foundation, and neither page shows any record of information deleted per WP:DENY. Are you suggesting that this page states we delete the reasons why people are blocked? Because that's not what the page says, and neither is that what happened in this case you mention. (Radiant) 14:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- User: Mr Spunky Toffee. I don't really have the time or energy for specific diffs from weeks ago on the issue or I would provide them. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Where to I check this issue? There is no User:Mr Spuky Toffee. It would really help if you would cite actual links. (Radiant) 14:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Check on the issue w/Mr Spuky Toffee, who was later found to be a sock of BGC. User:JzG then made a post to AN/I to entertain the thought of unblocking him, which people endorsed until it was pointed out why he was blocked. This information used to be on his userpage before it was deleted under the auspices of WP:DENY. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Which resurrection would that be? I find no record on Brian G. Crawford. At any rate, you are arguing that this should not be iron-clad without exceptions, and I agree - that's why it shouldn't be policy. The whole idea of all guidelines is that they're never iron-clad without exceptions (see also WP:POL). (Radiant) 14:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- We also have evidence that the deletion of such pages that have that information have caused major problems. See the recent resurrection of Brian G. Crawford as an example. WP:DENY should not be a guideline because of situations like that - the pages must be handled on their own merits, and rogues who choose to simply speedy them outright without discussion are not helping the situation. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Toffee's talk page was never deleted; BGC's contains no information relevant to why he was blocked. Jeff, making allegations but refusing to substantiate them if asked for details is known as "handwaving" and is not a valid argument for anything. Until you have any actual evidence of your many unsubstantiated claims, I'm not going to bother discussing them with you any more. (Radiant) 15:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Your accusations of handwaving only seem to come when I have you cornered logically. I find that fascinating. If you believe what you believe, I obviously can't stop you, but I've provided plenty of evidence, it's your choice whether to accept it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Badlydrawnjeff makes a good point. It is important to balance the needs of the community to remain aware of and keep track of ongoing problem individuals while also denying those problem users unwarranted notoreity gained from their disruptive behavior. One of the points that has been brought up is how glory seeking vandals have been inclined to let Wikipedia's tracking efforts function as a sort of automatic Google bombing for their vandal related terms. Optimally a system would allow for tracking while limiting the effects of such Google bombistic results. (→Netscott) 20:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Your accusations of handwaving only seem to come when I have you cornered logically. I find that fascinating. If you believe what you believe, I obviously can't stop you, but I've provided plenty of evidence, it's your choice whether to accept it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- There is evidence that we have MFDeleted pages that had no purpose other than to glorify or otherwise give attention to vandals, and that these deletions were not controversial. (Radiant) 12:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced it's widely accepted. It's definitely heavily pushed by a very vocal group of editors, but there's no evidence of wide acceptance. --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- The spirit of this WP:DENY is right. I don't see why this couldn't become a guideline. (→Netscott) 11:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Because the practice is wrong? --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- No because I've personally seen proof of vandal glory seeking. (→Netscott) 13:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- As have I. That doesn't mean that removing the information is the right move every time, which is what this implies. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see how this implies it, but it certainly isn't the intent of the page, so would you please edit it to remove that implication? (Radiant) 14:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Not really, no, because the intent of the page as a whole is what's faulty. We'd be better off slapping a {{rejected}} on it to make sure it's not abused. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- I take it then that there really isn't an implication to remove the information every time, but that removal of such should be discussed on WP:MFD as the page says. (Radiant) 14:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- No, there is. Note how it has been handled. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- I take it then that there really isn't an implication to remove the information every time, but that removal of such should be discussed on WP:MFD as the page says. (Radiant) 14:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Not really, no, because the intent of the page as a whole is what's faulty. We'd be better off slapping a {{rejected}} on it to make sure it's not abused. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see how this implies it, but it certainly isn't the intent of the page, so would you please edit it to remove that implication? (Radiant) 14:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- As have I. That doesn't mean that removing the information is the right move every time, which is what this implies. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- No because I've personally seen proof of vandal glory seeking. (→Netscott) 13:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Because the practice is wrong? --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Jeff has brought up some good points on why it shouldn't be a policy. I think it is widely accepted enough, and used often enough, that it can be a guideline. There have been many MfD discussions that put this essay into use, a lot of ANI threads about it that I can cite. Perhaps we can ask for wider input elsewhere? (Even on WP:ANI, where there are plenty of people who deal with this issue?) I certainly didn't expect this to turn into an angry argument between two editors, and I definitely wouldn't want to put a {{rejected}} tag on it. Grandmasterka 08:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
