Talk:Demographics of the Supreme Court of the United States
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[edit] First Catholic Justice?
Can anyone identify the first Catholic Justice appointed? I believe that it was sometime in the 1880s, but I may be wrong. BD2412 T 19:43, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
- Answering my own question, it was Roger B. Taney in 1836. BD2412 T 21:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Provocative claim removed
I have removed the following unsourced text from the article:
- Some observers believe that an Anti-Protestant intellectual bias has formed against mainline WASP protestants who are perceived as too liberal, and aginast evangelical protestants who are perceived as too conservative, and thus Protestant judges are not getting on the court.
Please provide a source for the claim that "some observers" believe this. BD2412 T 21:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Statistics
These statistics should be distributed to the appropriate sections of the article, not lumped together under ethnicity. Also, they reflect the current composition, but not historical under-representation. BD2412 T 21:36, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Gender:
- Men (49% of population, 89% of court)
- Women (51% of population, 11% of court)
- Men have 8.4 times greater per capita representation than women
Religious affiliation/heritage:
- Catholic (24% of population, 56% of court)
- Jewish (2% of population, 22% of court)
- Protestant (61% of population, 22% of court)
- Religious minorities have 8.3 times greater per capita representation than the religious majority
Ethnicity:
- WASP/ethnic European (71% of population, 89% of court)
- African-Am (14% of population, 11% of court)
- Hispanic (15% of population, 0% of court)
- Ethnic majority has 3.3 times lesser per capital representation on court than ethnic minorities.
-- o.k. to remove statistics for later footnote sourcing
- Religious affiliation/heritage statistics from U.S. Census Bureau, Statistical Abstract of the United States: 2004-2005, Tables 67 and 69, for population at large:
- Catholic (Table 67: 50,873,000 of 207,980,000 = 24.5%);
- Jewish (Table 69: 2.2% of population);
- Protestant, no denomination supplied (Table 67: 4,647,000 of 207,980,000 = 2.2%);
- Episcopal (Table 67: 3,451,000 of 207,980,000 = 1.7%);
- Total Protestant (Table 67: (159,506,000 Total Christian - 50,873,000 Catholic - 645,000 Orthodox = ) 107,988,000 Total Protestant / 207,980,000 = 51.9%.
Per the above discussion about Jewish statistics including both secular and religious Jews, I used the Table 69 figure of 2.2%, rather than the 1.4% (2,831,000 / 207,980,000) constituting religious Jews alone that would come from Table 67.
Table 69 presents an upper bound of 47.4% for "Christian adherents," suggesting that the true number of Protestants should be strictly less than 47.4%; however, the 51.9% from Table 67 is more in keeping with conventional wisdom that Protestants are still a majority of Americans.
As per adherents.com, I count Stevens as a Protestant declining to state a denomination. jp2 07:06, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Frankfurter
My understanding is that he was a secular Jew, being agnostic or atheist philosophically. Anyone have any contrary information? Currently the article just describes him as Jewish under the religious section, and I'm thinking this was a hasty categorization based on his ethnicity alone. Postdlf 22:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
- Good point! Being Jewish is both a cultural and religious state, and yes, Frankfurter was secular (apparently Breyer is as well). Probably a good deal could be written on the relative religiosity of the Justices, some of whom were pious believers and others having been functional athiests or agnostics presenting a religious face to the public. I'd really like to know if any of the early Justices were deists, like many among the founding fathers. BD2412 T 22:24, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Republican-nominated Justices
"...four of the last five Republican nominated Justices either were Catholics or have since become Catholic (excepting Miers, who was evangelical and not confirmed)."
I removed the Miers reference: the one out of five exception is actually David Souter, an Episcopalian. The statistic refers to confirmed Justices, not nominees.
Though if/when Alito is confirmed, it would be much more interesting to note that Bush 43 put two Catholics on the Court, Clinton put two Jews, and Bush 41 put two Episcopalians (except that Thomas has since converted back to Catholicism).
IEdML 17:22, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
- I should note that the statistic doesn't even include Alito. The five are Roberts, Souter, Thomas, Kennedy, and Scalia.
- If we were counting Alito and Miers, Bork would also be between Kennedy and Scalia -- and Bork was Protestant at the time. He converted to Catholicism in 2003, but that's not terribly relevant since he's not on the Court.
- IEdML 17:26, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Not sure this fits the discussion, but...
A hopefully interesting tidbit anyway on religious demographics of governments.
- There has also never been a Mormon, Pentecostal, Muslim, or Eastern Orthodox President. To cover all the branches of government Lutherans and Muslims are likely the most underrepresented. There has never been a Lutheran President. As of 2005 Lutherans are underrepresented among governors, The Legislative branch, and after William Rehnquist died they've been absent from the Supreme Court. Added to that Rehnquist was the only Lutheran ever to be in the Supreme Court. Episcopalians are historically(and still currently) overrepresented in the Executive Branch, Legislative,Judicial, and the governorships.
- In Canada Episcopalians are also overrepresented among Prime Ministers while Lutherans are absent.[1]
- Muslims have never served in high office in the US at all, AFAIK. Although Lutherans I think is more interesting because there were Lutherans even at theConstitutional Convention.--T. Anthony 09:46, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Non-Christian majority?
I don't know if this has a place on this page, which is why I'm asking.
There are a large segment of Christians who do not count Catholics as Christians. Once, someone knocked on my family's door and asked if we had accepted Jesus as our Savior. We said, yes, we're Catholic. They asked again. :) Later I learned that this wasn't an uncommon view. [2]
In the eyes of people who don't see Catholics as Christians, then, the court is currently a non-Christian majority (2 Jewish + 4 Catholic = 6 versus 3 Protestant). Is this worth writing about? Jacqui ★ 05:22, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- I wouldn't think so. For one if we do that we have to mention the view that this is the first time the court has been majority Christian as there are a few million Catholics in the world who would not consider Protestants to be real Christians. Even in the US there are some who would feel that way.--T. Anthony 07:31, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
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- It's actually a more common idea in Eastern Orthodoxy. I don't have a source for it at the moment, but it certainly is not something I made up. Papal Encyclicals to the twentieth century tended to be clear that Protestantism was to in least be seen as an invalid form of Christianity. SSPX essentially calls Protestants "the sects." Things like this aren't well covered online.--T. Anthony 08:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
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- In Catholicism this is more common before the 20th century. Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ, quoted favorably in SUMMO IUGITER STUDIO(which largely concerns Catholics marrying Protestants) by Pope Gregory XVI. I'll look for more later, I didn't really sleep well last night.--T. Anthony 10:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Germans and Scandinavians
One editor quite rightly noted in an edit summary that "We've been appointing Germans and Scandinavians for years - 'white' says it better than 'anglo-saxon'." I'd actually like to delve a bit into the ancestry of the 106 White Justices - were they predominately descended from Anglo Saxons? Irish? Scottish? French? How many were German? Scandinavian? Mediterranean? Were any of Eastern European ancestry? Have any had even a fraction of Native American ancestry? BD2412 T 01:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Lead
- For example, the current nomination of a male, Italian Catholic means the court will remain overwhelmingly male and could become majority Catholic for the first time in its history.
This needs a wikilink and context, who is this mysterious male? - RoyBoy 800 16:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] "Representation"
Something about this article troubles me. The discussion in the section of member's religous beliefs talks in terms of "representation" and compares the demography of the court to the nation as a whole. The Supreme Court is not a representative body, and I see no good reason why it should even vaguely be relevant as to whether protestants are "under" represented or jews "over" represented. If the Court is doing its job right, the religious views of the members are incidental. I'm a WASP, which makes my cloest "representative" on the court Justice Souter. However, first, Justice Souter is about the furthest point in the sky from my view of law (closer would be a catholic Italian-American and a catholic african american), and second, it's unclear why I (or anyone else) would be due "representation." I don't like the use of identity politics in electing bodies which are supposed to be representative, and a fortiori, I hold it to be absolutley illegitimate in selecting nonrepresentative bodies such as the Courts. In any instance, I'm having trouble finding a way to say "this material is of purely academic interest" in NPOV language; can anyone suggest a reason why I'm wrong to be concerned, or a good choice of words? Simon Dodd 15:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- Might be worthwhile just to say in the opening that the demographic composition of the Court, while often a matter of societal interest, is largely irrelevant to the function of the Court itself, as the views of individual Justices may have no connection with the views generally attributed to their demographic group. BD2412 T 16:41, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Disproproportionate emphasis on religion
Does this article's emphasis on the religious affiliations of the justices do justice to this article's title? Here's wikipedia's introductory paragraph on demographics as of 06:42, 22 March 2006 (UTC):
- Demographics is a shorthand term for 'population characteristics'. Demographics include age, income, mobility (in terms of travel time to work or number of vehicles available), educational attainment, home ownership, employment status, and even location. Distributions of values within a demographic variable, and across households, are both of interest, as well as trends over time. Demographics is used in marketing research, opinion research, political research, the study of consumer behaviour, as well as in straightforward marketing, which is the primary topic of this article.
Does this article reflect this definition? Here's some evidence to the contrary:
- The second sentence of the introduction, one of only two above the TOC, chooses to emphasize gender and religious affiliation:
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- For example, the recent confirmation of a male, Italian Catholic means the Court will remain overwhelmingly male, while becoming majority Catholic for the first time in its history.
- After the below-the-TOC introduction, we have a section on religion that is roughly four times longer than the other sections, and that's after economic and educational backgrounds are lumped together.
These characteristics of the current article call into question the article's Neutral point of view, since undue weight) appears to be placed on religious affiliation.
Before I attempt to address this issue, I am curious as to the current views of editors actively involved in this article. Am I an overreacting member of a small minority about this? If not, does the answer have to be to expand the other sections, or could the religious section be tightened up (say cut in half) to better present the range of topics that "demographics" are meant to cover?
Just trying to take the temperature of this article's current community before I proceed. Thanks. 66.167.139.66 06:42, 22 March 2006 (UTC).
- The article originated in an effort to get a particular editor to stop posting alarmist statements about the "Catholic majority" in a variety of other articles, so the initial focus has been heavy on religion. Also, there's more to say about religion than, say gender or ethnicity, because there has been more religious diversity than any other kind (not much more can be said about gender than the fact that we've had two Justices who are women). It's also much easier to get information on the religion of the Justices than on factors such as income, home ownership, travel time to work, etc. I would support the significant expansion of the underdeveloped sections on geographic origin, wealth, and education, but I would strongly object to any reduction of the valid, sourced information on religious affiliations. Cheers! BD2412 T 14:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Order of Justices
The justices at the end seem to be in no order whatsoever. Is this customary?
