Talk:Demidov

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[edit] Aleksander Nikolaevitsch Lopuchin-Demidov

There is some interesting material on-line on the life of Demidovs after the October revolution in exile in Finland. [1] (Too bad this is only in Finnish.) Duke Aleksander Nikolaevitsch Lopuchin-Demidoff (March 24 1870 - November 6 1937) and Duchess Natalia Dmitrjevna Demidoff (née Naryschkin) (May 3 1886 - August 10 1957) owned a manor house named Anttolanhovi in Anttola, (now part of Mikkeli) in Savonia. There is a rumor the manor was planned as a place of refuge for the Russian Tsar.

Note: The Finnish source uses the title Ruhtinas, but I do not know whether it should be translated Prince, Duke of Knjaz. -- Petri Krohn 07:17, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed move

Shouldn't this be moved to Demidovs, and replaced with a disambiguation page?—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 16:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

What's the point? Take a look at "what links here". --Ghirla ^-трёп- 16:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The point is grammatical correctness. The article is about a family, so the last name should be pluralized (as it is done in the intro). The very least we should do is to move this to Demidovs, keep Demidov as a redirect (to catch the backlinks), and place the dab page at Demidov (disambiguation). What would you say to that?—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 16:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that questionable grammatical correctness is the thing we should care about at this point. We have a system of redirects which resolves the problem to everyone's satisfaction. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 17:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry, but why are you referring to grammatical correctness as "questionable"? Isn't it the rule of the English language that when a family as a whole is mentioned, their pluralized last name should be used? Am I mistaken here? Shouldn't we strive to make Wikipedia as accurate as possible, starting with little things, even if it means occasional one-time inconvenience to the editors?

As for the redirects, they should help redirect spelling/grammatical errors to the correct version, not the other way around.

According to WP:NAME, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. It is reasonable to expect that English speakers would expect to see the article about the Demidovs under either Demidovs or Demidov family. Having Demidov redirect to Demidovs (or Demidov family) satisfies the second portion of the policy—it makes linking easy and second nature. Ambiguity is resolved by creating a separate disambiguation page at Demidov (disambiguation) and by referencing it from all related articles. Doing it this way is quick and easy, and in no way affects the swarm of already existing backlinks.

Anyway, if you could please explain in more details what is wrong with this proposal of mine, I would certainly appreciate it. I am planning to start "Demidov" disambiguation page, and need to know how to title it without getting in a way of other Demidov-related articles.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 18:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

As best I know, all the pages about the noble Demidovs redirect here. If you need to start a disambig, its place is Demidov (disambiguation). It's easy to link Demidov to that page using Template:Redirect. In naming the pages about families in singular (e.g., Galitzine, Tolstoy) I follow a broader practice in Wikipedia (e.g., La Tour d'Auvergne) and its esteemed antecedents, such as EB1911 (see here and here). Or do you think the editors of EB1911 were not aware of the niceties of English usage? --Ghirla ^-трёп- 18:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Hell, I don't know why they do/did it that way. From what my grammar references say, when a family is referred to by their last name, that last name should be in plural. To keep it in singular, one has to add "family" (e.g., "Demidov family"). I'll make a mental note to investigate it some time; or perhaps someone more knowledgeable will stumble upon this discussion of ours and enlighten us. For now, I withdraw my move proposal. Thanks.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 18:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)