Talk:Delay (audio effect)

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[edit] Reorganization

The delay article is a little too all-encompassing (but at the same time incomplete), and possibly should be broken out into various types opf delay methods/systems, including speakers in rooms, spring systems, tape systems, analog and digital circuits. Delays are not just used for discrete echoes or repeats, but also for diffuse reverb, chorusing, and flanging effects as well. So, instead of merging echo chambers into this, I think it all needs to broken out more, or have a LOT more material added to this article.x 04:38, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point. If you have some good sources of information on the various delay technologies, by all means, create main articles for them and change this article to summary style. There are already articles on chorus, flanging, and phasing (linked from the "uses" section).

However, I don't think plate/spring/digital reverb are necessarily related to delay -- those generally use much different methods to generate repetitions, and they generate tens or hundreds of individual echoes, while delays tend to generate only a handful of discrete (and audibly separate) echoes. I have been meaning to create a similar article Reverberation (audio effect) for some time but I haven't got around to it yet. --Ptkfgs 04:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

And before anyone comes back with "delay is not usually used in those contexts man" that's true for the standard guitarist or roadie, but for engineers, the opposite is the case.x 04:40, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

elaborate. --Ptkfgs 04:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

This shows the kind of misconception I'm talking about. Reverbs are achieved by delaying the signal a large number of mutliple times; whether by plate, spring, DSP, or speaker and mic, it's still fundamentally a delay effect first. "Delay" as used in a guitar-pedal label only covers a limited use of the overall delay effect that may not be commercially labelled as such, but technically is a delay effect. Audio engineers, well real ones, know this. It's a flaw of "common wisdom" that reverbs, flanging, and chorus are not known as types of delay effects by a regular musician.x 15:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• Propagating vibration through a physical medium -- as in a spring reverb or plate reverb -- is a very different method of simulating echo than recording and playing back a signal. Those are much more comparable to a vibrating string or a cymbal. There are significant aesthetic and acoustic differences between what people call delay and what they call reverb. Obviously they are related in their presentation of particular sounds repeatedly and with measurable latency -- they are designed to emulate aspects of natural echo, so it is inescapable that they would have some similarities.

I suspect you are getting at the fact that "phasing" is ambiguous. Obviously phase inversion is not what we're talking about, but Phase shifting.

I think the differences that Doktor Who points out are significant enough to warrant a serious reconsideration of the phrasing we had here before. In fact, I think that it would be much more accurate to describe phase shifting, chorus, and flanging as modulating effects first, and only incidentally as delays.

I'm not sure what you mean by "regular musician" and "real engineer", or what relevance those have here. --Ptkfgs 15:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, when referring to "phasing" I was indeed referring to the "phase shifting" effect. Regarding chorus and flanging as modulation effects, what's being modulated is the delayed signal, thus are actually delay effects first. The delays are just very short. As to plates or springs being simlar to strings or cymbals...not really, because the audio signal is delayed by being reflected through the body of the material, it's not just the ring of the material's resonance, though that adds to the effect (though I acknowledge this can be a grey area). But of course if the concept of delay is restricted to "recording and playing back a signal" as an effect, then, yes possibly this is excluded. However, DSP reverbs use delay algorithms, just very complex ones. Regarding "regular musician" and "real engineer", I was referring to various usages of the basic term "delay" and how it is understood in various facets of the audio profession, and the potential confusion that could arise. I've had some experince editing articles in Wikipedia where pedestrian or commercial uses of certain technical terms caused confusion. To make this even more fun, certain "pitch shifters" work by using delays that are modulated via saw-tooth waves. Again, the subject of audio delay as an effect is much much bigger than normally understood.x 19:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Please feel free to cite a source and add this distinction to the article. I must admit that despite years of reading audio technical literature, formal college training, and work experience, I have never heard the term "delay" used to describe anything but the process of generating a repeated signal by means of recording it and playing it back — either by a "standard guitarist" or an audio "engineer". In my opinion, the distinction you are making is splitting hairs and does not reflect the majority usage among any community. --Ptkfgs 04:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

• I can appreciate your impression. I just wanted to offer a comment on how this article might be approached. It all depends on whether the term "delay" is applied to the result or the process (and which one the article is about). I'm suggesting the article be about the process, and the many ways that it's utilized. Or maybe there's a way to break all that out too. Because, yes, the term ""delay" in the pedestrian usage is as you describe, but the technical process is used for much much more. I'm reluctant to help edit this is because of this confusion.x 14:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Phasing and flanging

With regard to phasing and flanging, the information here is not fully correct, those effects are both obtained when the delay time-lenght is modulated by mean of a sine wave. Sorry I can't fix it for now, maybe later.--Doktor Who 12:54, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

you know what, you're right. i'll comment it out. --Ptkfgs 13:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, as of this afternoon (in my local time) I'm not even capable to write properly here in the talk page :) . Anyway I will support a great improvement of the content and the subsequent split. --Doktor Who 13:07, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not always a sine wave, it's often triangle as well. But "phasing" isn't a delay effect. "Chorus" is though.x 15:15, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes you are right, but as I previously stated, I cant work on this group of articles for now .--Doktor Who 17:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's a big hurry. Xtramental seems eager to get to work anyway. —ptk★fgs 21:19, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not fully aware of the mess of articles pertaining to this topic(s) here at Wikipedia, I want to have a full picture before editing; anyway, if anyone has questions, do not hesitate to contact me. Please also note that the phasing effect was known and referred to as phaser up to ten (or less) years ago, I mean that you had to ask for a phaser to your local shop if you wanted that Boss pedal; now they are called phase shifters. I hope it will help your further research. --Doktor Who 21:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

They were called "phase shifters" in the 1970s, later shortened to "phaser". A few newer pedals might have reintroduced the longer name... but you've got your history backwards. Zephyrad 00:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dub

The "Uses" section should also have something about dub (and other genres which are heaviely influenced by delays). Musique concrète is mentioned in the beginning and the Echoplex is there but its to little. Also there should be a "modulation delay" section or so that covers the blurry line to chorus and flangers (and filters?). 85.178.16.42 19:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The reason musique concrete is mentioned is that it's the genre from which all contemporary delay effects originated. The early tape music composers invented it, as well as most other basic audio editing techniques. If we list all genres in which delay is commonly used, the page will be a gigantic list of music genres and won't be too useful. —ptk✰fgs 21:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)