Talk:Deir Yassin massacre

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The citation is in: Joey Kurtzman (November 16, 2006). "Wiki Wars". Jewcy.

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Contents

[edit] Some cleanup

This article needed some cleaning up.

  • Moved citations in intro to end of sentence
  • Tightened up wording of intro
  • Changed "Jewish irregular forces" to "Jewish IZL-Lehi forces" in intro
  • Changed death count in intro from 100-120 to 100-254 to account for full range of sources. Clearly noted that both sides exagerated the death counts.
  • Changed "during the so-called "civil war" period" to "during the "civil war" period of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War"
  • Took out the "(dubious assertion—see talk page)" superscript. No discussion on the talk page that I've seen denies that Milstein blamed the Irgun/Lehi, denies that the events were an atrocity, or the composition of the dead.
  • Turned the See Also into its own section

-- Patiwat 06:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Deir Yassin Massacre" article seeks to give respectability to an atrocity

This article (or the lead to it, anyway) comes across as thoroughly POV, a bitterly defended cover-up of an atrocity.

  1. 1st sentence: "during and after a battle at the village of Deir Yassin". "Battle" suggests there was "Palestinian action" in Deir Yassin, perhaps by a "village militia". There was none of this, they'd organised to post (unarmed?) guards against other Arabs, nothing more. The menfolk who defended their homes were acting individually and defensively (when they didn't run away). (See Wikipedia definition: "Generally, a battle is an instance of combat in warfare between two or more parties wherein each group will seek to defeat the others").
  2. 1st sentence: "alleged to have been mainly old people, women and children". Unless there'd been the massing of fighters, and there clearly wasn't, then old people, women and children were bound to be the majority. There simply isn't any dispute here to be justified, the article apparently seeks to invent it.
  3. 2nd sentence: "This occurred during a period of increasing local Arab-Jewish fighting about one month prior to the regional outbreak". This implies that the area was tense, it was not. Deir Yassin was friendly and peaceful (don't recall any credible dispute about this remaining) and was attacked because of that fact (at least according to Meir Pail [1]).
  4. 4th sentence: "The circumstances, nature, evaluation, and scope of the Deir Yassin incident remain a source of discussion and debate decades later". The encyclopedia wouldn't make statements like this about any other massacres (even when they're less well documented than this one). This statement looks like an attempt to muddy the water and give comfort to those who would "defend" this massacre.
And it goes on (the body of the article may be somewhat better).

I'd suggest that the lead should:

  1. Replace "battle" with "attack".
  2. Replace "alleged to have been mainly old ..." with "largely the old ....".
  3. Replace the words "local Arab-Jewish fighting" with "Arab-Jewish polarisation and attacks".
  4. Replace "remain a source of discussion and debate" with "some sources still seek to debate".
  5. Take out alternative spelling clutter (though they'd be useful somewhere at the end).

PalestineRemembered 10:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Oppose attempt to make the article even more POV from the Arabic fable story. Amoruso 15:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I concur with Amoruso as regards content. "some sources still seek to debate": you'd have to prove that historical discussion is over and evaluation agreed upon. --tickle me 08:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure I can provide adequate justification from most significant Israeli historians (alone, leaving aside any others in the world) that Deir Yassin was indeed an atrocity. It's barely even necessary to say "some sources still seek to debate". (Leaving aside Amoruso's favourite, Shmuel Katz, a violent militant and professional propagandist).
And how about my other points - clearly, this was not a battle in the regular meaning of the word, equally clearly more than 50% of those killed were non-combatants, nothing alleged about it.
The first sentence of the first section speaks of an "incident". The article urgently needs stripping of these POV (and in some cases like this, deeply offensive) items.
Oh, look, here's what Meir Pail says [2] - you're not still going to deny it was mostly women, children and the old, are you?
"Most of the houses there are one-story, though there are a few two story houses like the Mukhtar's house and a few others. In the corners we saw dead bodies. Almost all the dead were old people, children or women, with a few men here and there. They stood them up in the corners and shot them. In another corner there were some more bodies, in the next house more bodies and so on. They also shot people running from houses, and prisoners. Mostly women and children. Most of the Arab males had run away. It is an odd thing, but when there is danger such as this, the agile ones run away first.
Here is Haganah operations officer Eliyahu Arbel inspected the town on the Saturday:
"I have seen a great deal of war," he related 24 years later, "but I never saw a sight like Deir Yassin," largely comprised of "the bodies of women and children, who were murdered in cold blood."
You're not still going to claim that "alleged to have been mainly old people, women and children" is anything other than disgusting denial, are you?
PalestineRemembered 18:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
PalestineRemembered - I mean this advice sincerely. You have to stop believing that your interpretation of history is the only correct one. If you compare both the Irgun and Bir Zeit versions, you'll see that they agree in all major respects, especially in that it started with a battle. --Leifern 01:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how it can be a battle if an armed group approach/attack a village, and are met with nothing more than individuals protecting their homes. To have a battle you need two "opposing forces".
Furthermore, in cases like this, decency demands that we accept the word of the victims. Unless there is strong evidence that the victims were being duplicitous in some way - and I'm not aware of there being even a mild suspicion against them. Despite being firmly in the area set aside for Arab control, this particular town was falling over backwards to collaborate with the Yishuv.
Meir Pail's account is entirely consistent with everything else we think we know. This village was not attacked because it was threatening, quite the opposite, it was attacked because it was peaceful, friendly, and thought to be easy to knock over. Irgun and Lehi took several fatalities - but the Palmach presently swept through and wiped out all resistance with no injuries to their own. We don't know who they'd practised on, but by the time of Deir Yassin, they were quite skilled.
PalestineRemembered 22:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Though Meir Pail's acount is arguably relevant, as far as I can tell, ariga.com is a private website, thus it doesn't qualify as source. At the moment, the article infers (WP:OR) from Pail's acount. --tickle me 11:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
You are quite right, one man's personal account on a web-page is not normally worthy of WP standards. In fact, I'm not sure why I introduced it. Here is the military historian Uri Milstein: "in fact, nobody denies: most of the dead in Deir Yassin were old men, women and children, and only a few of them were young men who could be classified as warriors" (The War of Independence Vol. IV, p273; translation by Ami Isseroff
However, this piece of (pretty blatant) denial was only what I could see in the first sentence of the first paragraph of this article. I'm sure it's all been much argued over already, but the article has been left in a state that looks to me completely unfit.
PalestineRemembered 22:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minimization

Until today, the lead used to read "Contemporary reports of the event and the number of casualties (exaggerated by all sides) had considerable contemporary impact on the conflict, and were a major cause of Arab civilian flight from Palestine.[5][6][7] " User:Burgas00 changed this to read "Contemporary reports of the event and the number of casualties (exaggerated or minimised by all sides) had considerable contemporary impact on the conflict, and were a major cause of Arab civilian flight from Palestine.[5][6][7] " . This makes no sense. As the sentence says, there was a huge contemporary impact - the Arab civilian flight from Palestine. This flight was the laregly result of the exaggeration (by both sides). Even if contemporary reports had mimimized the scale (something which I am not sure is even true) - surely this would not have the considerbale impact reffered to in the latter part of the sensence. Adding "or minimised" to that sentence, in what appears to be a misguided attempt at NPOV, does not make sense. Isarig 22:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Im sorry! My mistake.--Burgas00 22:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm gald I was happy to better explain what I meant . So, will you revert your last change? Isarig 23:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are these direct quotes?

Please check the footnotes in the article and let us know if the sentences in italics should really be in italics, or are they direct quotes from the sources? Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 04:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[1][2][3][4] This occurred during a period of increasing local Arab-Jewish fighting about one month prior to the regional outbreak of the much larger 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Contemporary reports of the event and the number of casualties (exaggerated by all sides) had considerable contemporary impact on the conflict, and were a major cause of Arab civilian flight from Palestine.[5][6][7]

[edit] Don't want to start a fight, but I've taken out "probably exaggerated" number of victims

I think I noticed that this has gone backwards and forwards a bit, but as far as I'm aware, it's a "Well Known Fact" that the number of victims in the Deir Yassin Massacre was exaggerated by everyone.

That being the case, it's probably wrong to say "victims 100 - 254", but I've left it in, partly in the interests of only making incremental improvements (of which there are still quite a few to do).

PalestineRemembered 16:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Emanuel Winston appears to be completely wrong about the geography, and is an avowed supporter of ethnic cleansing

1) Emanuel Wlnston appears to have picked up on and published a piece of propaganda, aimed at denial. Deir Yassin was not strategic. eg: "I know that Raanan, commander of the Irgun, later said it had strategic value and controlled roads and logistic axes and so on, but that is all nonsense. Deir Yassin did not maintain any observation or fire control over the main road to Jerusalem, or any other route to Motza or Qastel. They didn't shoot at anything, certainly not at the road, because it was impossible to shoot at the road from Deir Yassin. Deir Yassin is high above sea level, but it, and Givat Shaul, are separated from the main road to Jerusalem by a big ridge where the Givat Shaul cemetery is located now, and you cannot see anything of strategic value from Deir Yassin. Everyone knows where the cemetery is, so it is ridiculous to claim they could fire on the road from Deir Yassin" [3].

2) Emanuel Winston is a political commentator, not a historian. And an unashamed supporter of ethnic cleansing eg from "No to Palestinian state" by Emanuel A. Winston Editorial/Opinion section, Page 14A USA TODAY, 22 February 2002: "there is no ready solution for deprogramming the Arab culture that has taught its youth to hate and kill with such ferocity that nothing, including a state of their own, will change their minds or cure their murderous behavior ......... The simple answer, instead, would be to create a vast separation from Israel, resettling the Palestinians in Jordan, where 80% of the population already is Palestinian" [4]. I hesitate to further label his beliefs, but the statements he's made and stands by are out there.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by PalestineRemembered (talk • contribs) 02:30, November 10, 2006 (UTC)

That is your opinion and original research. If you feel that strongly, I believe the way to edit constructively would be to place a quote from a reliable and verifiable source that addresses the issues Winston raises after the Winston citation. -- Avi 07:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
There are infinitely many commentaries out there by infinitely many commentors on all sides. We have to restrict the article to the best representatives of the main themes, we can't just keep adding more and more stuff from more and more people who don't have any special expertise. Otherwise it keeps getting more and more junky. Also, it is not original research to note that Deir Yassin did not control traffic on the road; you can see it for yourself on the contour map. The fact that Winston gets this basic datum (not opinion!) wrong means he isn't a reliable source. So there are two good reasons he is not suitable for inclusion. --Zerotalk 09:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, it is not original research to note that Deir Yassin did not control traffic on the road; you can see it for yourself on the contour map.

—Zero, 09:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this is a classic example of original synthesis, which cannot be used. Regardles of how obvious anything may appear to you or me or anyone else, if it is not already published in a reliable source, making the argument is expressly forbidden as wikipedia cannot be a primary source. Secondly, an expert in the field may point out something that does not appear obvious. I am certain a number of battles in WWI and WWII were fought over pieces of land that were "obviously" not strategic, but over whom thousands of people died because someone thought it was. Regardless, to point that opinion (that it was not strategic) out IN the article, you need to find an existing reliable source to quote, according to wikipedia policy. Thanks -- Avi 12:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The map is a published reliable source, Avi. The same obvious fact is published by several of the sources listed in the article already. --Zerotalk 14:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The map is. Your analysis of the location's strategic importance (even if based on many decades of military command and planning) is not. -- Avi 14:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

So an official map of Florida is not a reliable source for the claim that Miami is in Florida. That's your logic. --Zerotalk 02:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
No, my logic is that an official map of Florida is not a source as to the strategic importance of Florida to Balboa and the Spanish claims to new world colonization. -- Avi 23:28, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
We have an excellent source that says Deir Yassin did not/does not overlook the road.
We have nothing approaching a WP:RS claiming that it does overlook the road (and it's very easy to prove such a positive).
It would be a travesty to give "equal time" to those who attempt to cover for this atrocity, when the only evidence we have supporting that view comes from a commentator with no qualifications (or even claim) to be a historian, and a proven enthusiasm for ethnic cleansing.
PalestineRemembered 16:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of where Deir Yassin was in relation to the road (though it is not in any doubt), Winston is just a random polemicist who is copying claims from somewhere else. Given the large number of historians who have studied this subject in detail using original documents, we don't need to bring quotations from random commentators who contribute nothing except opinions. It isn't even an original opinion. --Zerotalk 02:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Seems to me that Winston is more than a polemicist, he's an avowed believer in ethnic cleansing. 60 years ago it was perfectly proper to give these people their real name - what's wrong with doing so now? Or are your hands bound with wire?
PalestineRemembered 20:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

regardless of the strange censoring attempt of a WP:RS by certain known POV pushers, the POV intro that Palestineremembered tried to enforce can't stand and should be restored to the original. It's bad enough the article's name is still "massacre", the whole incident, alleged and debate changes or rather damages to the intro should be restored ASAP. I still can't believe that a battle that no serious scholar believes was even remotely a massacre and that there's clear evidence and in fact testimonies that this was fabricated is still named a "massacre" in the title. Amoruso 04:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The most extreme Zionist gunmen snuck up on this peaceful and Zionist-friendly village very early in the morning .... it's pretty outrageous to call this a "battle". There were no opposing force of any kind - check out web definitions of "Battle" to understand the meaning of English words.
We have an excellent source that says Deir Yassin did not/does not overlook the road.
We have nothing approaching a WP:RS claiming that it does overlook the road (and it's very easy to prove such a positive).
It would be a travesty to give "equal time" to those who attempt to cover for this atrocity, when the only evidence we have supporting that view comes from a commentator with no qualifications (or even claim) to be a historian, and a proven enthusiasm for ethnic cleansing.
PalestineRemembered 21:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Winston's quote above will obviously be placed back. Also, we have evidence this was a battle from the testitmonies and newspaper reports at the time. We also have evidence of shootings from the village towards jewish neighborhoods, see below. Amoruso 23:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't doubt that some very POV material will be placed into this article, including from people like Winston, a polemicist and an open supporter of ethnic cleansing.
I'm sure that people who hate the Jews as much believe they should be quoted as experts on historical matters and quoted in the encyclopedia.
I'm quite sure that clips from such people would not be tolerated here.
Tell me again - why are people who want to rob and kill people (solely because they're Arabs) apparently acceptable as sources?
PalestineRemembered 17:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Replacing "Attack" with "Battle" looks like an edit against the content of the article

You've changed "The Irgun and Lehi discuss the planned attack on the village with the Haganah, but don't intend a massacre" to "Battle Plans"

And "The village discovers it is under attack when a guard gives a warning at 4.45am" to "The battle"

(Then labelled your changes "verbose title->shorter version", which hardly covers the case).

Would you care to justify the apparent contention of your edits that there were "two forces" at Deir Yassin?

PalestineRemembered 19:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Your edits which changed the exiting "battle plans" and "battle" to the verbose, unencyclopedic title seem like a POV attempt to avoid recognizing that there was indeed a battle there, which preceded the massacre. Read the article, as well as other well documented sources that point out there was a battle- the attacking Jewish forces suffered casualties, there were armed defenders in the village, which would seem to show that there were "two forces" at Deir yassin. The article states, for example, quoting Me'ir Pa'il that "Villager fire inflicted heavy casualties and drove off the Irgun". It further cites Reuven Greenberg saying 'Intense Arab firepower caused the fighters' advance into Deir Yassin to be very slow" . seems like a battle between two forces to me. Isarig 19:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Looks like classic WP:OR to me. There is no indication anywhere of there being any "Force" within Deir Yassin, and strong indication that the village refused to house any Arab soldiers. There were few amongst the dead who even might have been soldiers.
Perhaps you could explain to me why known terrorists such as Menachem Begin sought to lie about and minimise the evil and horror of this unprovoked attack on friendly people.
PalestineRemembered 21:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
You seem to be under the impression that a "battle" can only take place between forces belonging to a formal armies. That is not the case. The fact that the villagers were armed and, according to witnesses, inflicted heavy casualties and drove off the Irgun fighters, is more enough evidence to support the claim that a battle did in fact take place. Virtually all of the battles in the civil war that raged in the Mandate area from November 1947 until the invasion by the regular forces of the neighboring Arab countries in MAy 1948 took place between irregualr forces. That is not to say that a massacre did not follow the battle, but denying that there was a battle first seems to fly in the face of evidence. Isarig 17:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm going by the regular meaning of the word (and the WP - see Battle). "Generally, a battle is an instance of combat in warfare between two or more parties wherein each group will seek to defeat the others ...... Wars and campaigns are guided by strategy whereas battles are the stage on which tactics are employed."
A sneak attack of this kind on a village we are pretty sure wasn't garrisoned (in fact, had refused a garrison) cannot be described as a "battle". This is not one force surprising another at 5.00am, it's an attack by "soldiers" on people's homes. People surprised in their homes and beds don't "employ a tactic", there is no such thing in self-defence.
Under such circumstances, use of the word "battle" does not belong. The first stages of this event were "an attack" (a completely unprovoked attack at that - the villagers of Deir Yassin had done nothing whatsoever to be treated in this fashion).
PalestineRemembered 19:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
' a battle is an instance of combat in warfare between two or more parties ' - this is preciesly what happened here. One party are the Etzel forces, the other party is the irregular, armed combatants in the village. It is not required that they belong to an organized army. They were armed, and inflicted heavy casualties on the attckers- clearly a battle took place. Isarig 20:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Many of the combatants were also Iraqi and Syrian soldiers making them not irregular. Amoruso 23:03, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems the revisionism will go on. There must be a few occasions in the history of the world when a force attacked an ally, or "protected citizens", and people remember it as a battle. But I can't immediately think of any, and this plainly isn't one.
Nor is it seriously suggested by anyone other than the attackers that there were any Arab soldiers there. Milstein refers to a claim that one soldier was there, all witnesses agree only a few young men were killed.
PalestineRemembered 07:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical fact

There is no doubt that Deir Yassin served as a post for gunning down Jews in the Jerusalem Tel Aviv Road in a 3km line. The newspaper "Davar" from April 4th brought a detailed account of shooting from the village towards the neighborhoods of Beit Hakerem and Bait Vagan. As there is no doubt that the place was a grave danger since Iraqi soldiers were brought in as well as the fact that among the bodies were Iraqi and Syrian soldiers from actual units. Also there is no doubt that there was no massacre but a battle - there were a myriad of arms on the site. Also no doubt of the use of grenades and automatic weapons by the Arab forces. As there is no doubt of the hoax of the stories of abuse of the bodies after the thorough detail reports on the 12th april in the site. Honestly, it's very disturbing that wikipedia users allow the use of a proven hoax and try to censor the fact this was a sound military target. Amoruso 11:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yawn. --Zerotalk 11:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
There seems no limit to the revisionism that some people wish to put into this article. Here's one account of the aftermath of this "proven hoax" [5] "...... Meanwhile a crowd of people from Givat Shaul, with peyot {earlocks}, most of them religious, came into the village and started yelling 'gazlanim' 'rozchim' - (thieves, murderers) "we had an agreement with this village. It was quiet. Why are you murdering them?" They were Chareidi (ultra-orthodox) Jews. This is one of the nicest things I can say about Hareidi Jews. These people from Givat Shaul gradually approached and entered the village, and the Lehi and Irgun people had no choice, they had to stop. It was about 2:00 or 3:00 PM. Then the Lehi and Irgun gathered about 250 people, most of them women, children and elderly people in a school house. Later the building became a "Beit Habad" - "Habad House.' They were debating what to do with them. There was a great deal of yelling. The dissidents were yelling 'Let's blow up the schoolhouse with everyone in it' and the Givat Shaul people were yelling "thieves and murderers - don't do it" and so on."
Needless to say, there are a number of other very well attested accounts of what the attackers did to villagers surprised in their beds.
PalestineRemembered 20:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
It should be called "Deir Yassin attack". 1) Investigative groups came in and did not find evidence of a massacre, 2) The incident was highly exaggerated and used as propaganda on both sides, 3) Iraqi and Arab soldiers were in the village, 4) Many of the women were combatants, 4) It had occured during the Arab attack on Israel and siege of Jerusalem, making it more of a battle. --Shamir1 18:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
We should call it how the consensus of scholarship calls it. A massacre. --Zerotalk 04:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You mean the consensus of Palestinian propoganda sites like "Palestineremebered". All scholars agree that it was a battle. Meir Pail wasn't even there. Amoruso 12:03, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Scholars (we can exclude Katz from this category, for reasons that are pretty obvious) agree it was a massacre.
One scholar (Milstein) claims that there is no verifiable evidence that Meir Pa'il was there on the morning of the massacre and there is no independent verification of his meeting with Palmach commander Yaki Weg (killed later) and Moshe Wachmann (though the latter was still alive when Pail first published his account). This meeting occured (according to Pail) after the Palmach had pacified the more difficult, western part of the village in about 15 minutes. Pail outranked Yaki Weg, thanked him for what he'd done and asked him to leave. For the rest of his life he blamed himself for what happened after these regular (though unofficial) forces left. Earlier, he'd been along to spy on the irregulars and photograph what they did. He was hiding in a disused house on the eastern edge of the village while the irregular's unsuccessful assault on householders was going on.
Other statements made here ("no independent evidence of massacre" and "Deir Yassin served as a post for gunning down Jews in the Jerusalem Tel Aviv Road", "myriad of arms on the site") are completely unworthy.
PalestineRemembered 22:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
These are Palestinian lies. The testimonies of Arab residents themselve of Deir Yassin prove that there was no massacre. I don't know of any unbiased historian who claims that this battle was even remotely close to a massacre. Amoruso 23:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
The shooting incidents Appear not only in Davar but also in the Palestine Post. for example some I saw :

1947 Dec 29 : shooting on givat shaul from Deir Yassin 1948 Jan 13 : it says that the Arabs in the place refused to allow arab gangs to shoot from there that sunday night which proves it was potentially used. obviously these refs should be added. of course the palestine post account of the battle also tells of the warning given by etzel, of the vast amount of arms found and the tough battle. Amoruso 23:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm a bit surprised to see you claim that Meir Pa'ils words are "Palestinian lies".
I see nothing from you to justify the statements that have been made, that Deir Yassin overlooked the road. I see nothing from any serious historian disputing there was a massacre.
And independent witnesses looked over the village, seeing nothing of what you claim about arms and soldiers and quantities of weapons. I know of nothing to indicate anything like what you claim.
PalestineRemembered 09:44, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
You can read the article, the version before too, there are many Arab testimonies who agree that there was no massacre - there's unquestioned evidence that shows exactly that this was a hoax and why there was a hoax. There's also no question about the arms and the existence of the Iraqi soldiers. Amoruso 10:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
There are people who rubbish many proven examples of mass murder carried out by violent racists - regular folk have a word for this practise, and names for the people who do it.
PalestineRemembered 17:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
It's denial of something that didn't happen, it's true. Anyway, Arab propaganda has a long history with these fables, it's part of a whole ideology, it's not surprising. You're just a version of Baghdad Bob. Amoruso 18:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC) Amoruso 17:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
This exchange is veering toward PA territory. Let's be civil --Rrburke(talk) 00:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article got a media mention, and so did this discussion page

Despite the fact that this article is protected from editing due to a dispute, this article is a model of dispute resolution and a testament to the power of collaborative editing. At least that's what a hopelessly polyanna-ish media profile of Wikipedia claims. PlainWrap 01:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

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