Talk:Decolonization

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Collaboration of the week Decolonization was the collaboration of the week for the week starting on April 25, 2005.

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Contents

[edit] Map, etc

Looks like History of Quebec is the new COTW should {{COTWnow}} be removed?

Hi! Does anybody knows why was South Africa in favor of decolonization? I mean I know it was good for the people in the country, but I would like to know more reasons....

How can an entire country be in favour of something? Especially democracies? Most people are not directly in favour of decolonization. Rather, they just want independence from Europe. Spikeballs 19:52, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)


Could anyone get that good map in English? I realise it's pretty easy to deduce what the legend says (it's German, right?), but even so it seems somewhat inappropriate on an English page. Thx. --Dmcdevit 03:18, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's Dutch, if it will help for you to know. Mikkalai 06:03, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
By the way, it shows USSR as a big colony. Very funny. Why US of A is not here, then? Mikkalai 06:03, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'll be soon uploading a new map -- Soviet Union shouldn't be there, but USA should be (because of the Philippines). Aris Katsaris 06:46, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
Soviet Union is there on the ground that it had a colonial relationship to Turkestan and Transcaucasia - as the events of 1991 indicate. European Russia is colored because all imperial countries are colored (France, for example). Septentrionalis 15:18, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Was the relationship of Soviet Union to Turkestan and Transcaucasia any different than the relationship of China to Tibet? I've never heard the break-up of the Soviet Union being referred to as an act of decolonization. AFAIK Soviet Union claimed all the territory of Turkestan and Transcaucasia as its integral territory and theoretically all its citizens were equal (even though the reality was of course different). That's quite different to the colonial way where e.g. the people of India weren't voting for the British PM unlike the people of United Kingdom itself, and people born in the Philippines weren't American citizens. Aris Katsaris 15:54, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
I have seen it referred to as decolonization in discussions of Central Asia; but I suppose it may be considered a seperate process. You are applying a rather formal test: do you wish to say (as the present map suggests) that Egypt was never a British colony? or that Algeria, which was "an integral part of France", was not a colony?
You surprise me on the Phillipines; Puerto Ricans are American citizens IIRC, although Puerto Rico is a dependent state, and does not vote in American elections.
I don't know well the history of either Egypt or Algeria. The article on Egypt mentions independence in 1922, which is before 1945 (which the map tries to represent). As for Algeria, the good thing in the map about coloring both the countries themselves and their colonial claims with the same colour is that we don't need to differentiate between the various distinctions.
And as for Puerto Rico (and Guam for that matter), these are indeed also remnants of USA colonialism, just as Gibraltar and the Falkland islands are remnants of British colonialism. This isn't a moral condemnation btw on my behalf, because the United Kingdom and USA both are willing to let the inhabitants themselves decide whether they wish to continue the association with them or not.
Either way, with Soviet Union lacking both overseas territories or formally non-integral regions, I can't see any way we can color Soviet Union which wouldn't force us to also color every other country in the world, including China and Yugoslavia. Aris Katsaris 06:05, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
I have been reading Iuean LL Griffith's Atlas of African Affairs from Witwatersrand University Press, and it seems that the mineral wealth of the area led to a lot of constructive attention from the British, Dutch and German goverments. 1870 and 1876, I believe, were the years of discovery of diamonds and gold in great quantity there. 40 years later, in 1910, the territory had been developed to the extent that home rule was possible. McDogm0308 Apr 28 2005 est usa

[edit] Decolonization by the USSR?

Why isn't the USSR included? Surely the domination of Eastern Europe can be considered imperialistic? Isn't that why they had independence movements later on? Just a thought, I don't know if there is some technicality here, but it seems to fit for mee... --Dmcdevit 02:42, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The USSR ought to be included. It was one of the largest land empires in history, and the breakaway of its several constituent republics certainly constitutes decolonization. Most, if not all, of the republics that broke away were independent in some form or another before being assimilated into Imperial Russia or again into the USSR. The U.S. is already mentioned as having given up colonies, such as the Philippines (although the Cuban revolution is missing as of this writing). —thames 13:49, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Then again, Russia's imperialism is not characterized by colonization. They just expanded their territories more and more. It's like you can't say Nazi Germany was colonialist - it was imperialist. Perhaps a point can be made in the article, that the collapse of the USSR gave independence to many old republics and peoples, but also that this was not decolonization per se. And the main difference could be cited. Spikeballs 19:52, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
Where do you draw the line between colonization and imperialism?--Dmcdevit 22:58, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Under Colonialism there is an occupied people, which is not a part of the empire and is only ruled by the empire. Indians, Africans and Arabs were not citizens of the empire; they were looked upon as "natives" or "locals." The local culture was preserved and the citizenship of local differed in class. In the USSR, occupied nations became equal in status, at least by law, and attempts were made to replace local cultures with a global Soviet culture. Thus Ukraine, for example, was not treated as a colony, but as an extended territory of the empire (Ukrainians actually spoke Russian till the collapse of the USSR). I still think that the USSR should be included, but as I said, the difference has to be cited as well. Spikeballs 00:31, May 1, 2005 (UTC)
India/Pakistan was certainly as much a part of Britain as Central Asia was of the Soviet Union. And what about the US and Australia, and Brazil, and South America all were considered colonies, but they were also not necessarily occupied people, or "natives". Sorry, I'm not getting it... --Dmcdevit 00:38, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
India/Pakistan were part of British Empire, but their inhabitants didn't have the same political rights. Your second sentence is unclear. Please rephrase. Mikkalai 05:14, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Okay, well what I mean to say here is that I'm still not sure of the imperialism/colonialism distinction. Spikeballs said that a "colony" is where natives are ruled by the colonizing power (Britain, France, etc.). So USSR doesn't fit because it gave equal status theoretically to it's territory (Central Asia, Ukraine, etc.). So the reason I don't get it is that India/Pakistan, Brazil, American colonies, etc. are all considered colonies even though they had about as much independence/"equal status" as the USSR dominions. I am not arguing, but trying to get this... What am I not getting? --Dmcdevit 05:39, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
There was no such thing as "ussr dominions" separate from ussr. U in ussr stands for "union". In the times of cold war one might have called them "russia dominions". California is not called "USA" dominion, is it? On the other hand, please tell me did India or American colonies have any fair representation in English parliament?
Anyway, if there is sometihing unclear to you, it means that our colony/colonization articles are bad, and you must discuss your questions there, not here. This article is a secondary one. If the term "decolonization" is not applied to collapse of the Soviet Union in the mainstream historical/political science, then it is not our business. Mikkalai 17:51, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Wait a minute, it's a bit of a strawman to say India and America, when Brazil, which I also mentioned was absolutely equal to Portugal. Now if you are going to say that, Georgia for instance, had fair representation in the USSR, more than the American colonies, you're wrong. I know what we like to think about the revolutionaries, but Britain was a monarchy and America was a colony. Just as Georgia was inferior and the USSR was a dictatorship. The same is true for Georgia and many other peripheral SSRs. Or do you consider attempted destruction of culture and language and massive purges "fair representation"? You have to admit that at many points places like Georgia, Hungary, Poland, etc. were occupied territory, so I want to know why this isn't included under decolonization when India is. Obviously there is no state like the Russian SSR which basically supreme, so the California analogy is useless. --Dmcdevit 18:37, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

The USSR is obviously quite hard to characterize. Russian expansion followed the same pattern as British expansion in many ways. It began from an imperial center, expanding through state authorized trading companies. Russia's entire eastward push (all the way to Northern California) was accomplished by state trading companies. This is no different than the East Indies Company, except it was overland rather than overseas. After The Mutiny Britain formalized its empire in India, removing company rule and replacing it with direct imperial rule. In Russia, after the 1917 revolution many of the colonially dominated places were formally annexed as SSRs--it's really a fiction to talk about them as having an equal status with the Russian SSR. They were originally under Russian colonial domination, and remained that way, despite the Soviet semantic change. The SSR population were Soviet citizens, but Indians also had British passports during imperial rule. Satellite states in the Eastern bloc were certainly under economic and political domination, just as any third world european colony was. Finally, I think the fact that many scholars include the break-up of the Soviet Union as part of the "Third Wave" of decolonization (1st: 1953-60, 2nd: 61-80, 3rd: 80-91) is a good reason for Soviet inclusion in this article. —thames 16:27, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Here is an example of scholarly historical work that designates the Soviet breakup as a major feature of the period of decolonization: [1]. —thames 16:31, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
the article actually speaks of the "third wave of democratization", not "decolonialization". Mikkalai 18:16, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
One more note: the CIS, which was put in place after the breakup of the Soviet Union, is more or less isomorphically similar to the British Commonwealth. It is less intrusive than other post-colonial structures, like the U.S.'s freely associated states or commonwealths. I think there's a very good case for its inclusion. —thames 17:54, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
All your speech above shows an ignorance in the history of creation of Imperial Russia and Soviet Union. It is not my purpose to teach you history. I will only notice that the only one aspect of Russian expansion may be called "colonization" under each and every reasonable criteria: it was Russia's expansion into Siberia. But Siberia is still in Russia. Also please think about this: at all times kingdoms and states grabbed lands from neighbors, but these annexions were not called "colonies". Mikkalai 18:16, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
First, please review Wikipedia:Civility. I've approached this from the point of good faith and discussion, and you've responded to me with insults and condescension. Not appropriate. I am, however, forced to agree with you that Russia's western expansion was traditionally imperial. But, Russia's expansion past the Urals using a system of state companies, and fortified trading posts (ostrogs) was classically colonial. This includes Siberia, and I believe Central Asia as well. I am not sure why Central Asia's eventual incorporation as SSRs changes the colonial nature of their domination. Further, within the Soviet sphere of influence, Eastern Europe was forced into a position of economic subservience (COMECON), and military subservience (Warsaw Pact). Many European colonies enjoyed nominal independence as well, while they remained economically and militarily dominated. There's little more than a semantic difference between the European overseas colonial system, and the Russian/Soviet system. —thames 19:43, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
The word "ignorance" is pretty much descriptive of the displayed views. Let me tell you some more bits: Baltic States considered themselves (pretty correctly) as occupied territories, not as colonial territories. Georgia was a cliche of the country of shamelessly rich people with respect to "colonialistic" but pantless Russia. And it is very funny to have a colony like Belarus so intensively industrialized by these greedy Russians so that from a retarded agrarian piece of Poland it turned into a highly industrialized republic with one of the highest living standards in the USSR. And so on. Also, what are trying to prove to me about Urals here? I've already said: yes, Siberia was colonized. Are you going to say that Russia is a colonial state today?
USSR was "decolonized" only in the brains with rich fantasy skills. But if you want to put it here, start from the colony article and list the USSR colonies there first and prove that they were colonies with references to authorities. We'll see there what kind of semantic differences we are speaking about. Mikkalai 23:08, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Continued condescension does not make your point for you--it just makes you look bad. If you re-read my previous post, I agreed with you that Russian expansion in the West was imperial proper, not colonial. So I already agree with your above points about the Baltics, Belarus and Georgia. I would consider Siberia Russian just as the Western territories of North America became U.S. States. But the independence of nationalist ethnicities in Central Asia after having been subsumed under colonial and then formal domination certainly does qualify as decolonization. See a reputable source here: [2]. You didn't really address the Central Asian republics or Eastern Europe in your above post--are you content with my previous position on those? —thames 23:24, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
About Eastern Europe: our colony article introduces the term informal colony, which would be applicable, although I would consider it a political slander, rather than a serious term. We already have "satellite state" that pretty much covers the issue. I have no opinion about Central Asian republics, since they were and are in the state of feudalism IMO. Also, their position within USSR did not differ much from present Bashkortostan or Tuva. So in this respect, I am repeating: just spell it: is Russian Federation a colonial state? If you say yes and seriously corroborate it in the colony article, the same clearly applies to USSR, and I will not argue. Mikkalai 00:38, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Mikkalai, you revealed your own bias. Your overly defensive attitude towards Soviet rule is a bit usettleing. Certainly I wouldn't characterise USSR as solely "greedy Russians" as you seem to think I would, but by the same token, it was certainly not the benevolent rule you describe. In any case, you say that the Baltic states were occupied territiory, not colonies, but that is exactly what our definition of a "colony" is. Look it up. --Dmcdevit 00:07, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Was Bohemia colony of Austria-Hungary? Was East Prussia colony of Germany? Is Northern Ireland colony of Great Britain? There are many different terms to describe dependencies between places. Not all of them must be put under the same title "colony". It would be a gross oversimplification. And our definition, however poor it is, is not "exactly" "that". And how you managed to see my "defensive" attitude towards Soviet Union is beyond my comprehension. I suggest you to look at some of my contributions at User:Mikkalai page, namely the ones that begin from letters 'NKV' and related ones. Mikkalai 00:38, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

"In politics and in history, a colony is a territory under the immediate political control of a geographically-distinct state"; "Colonialism is the extension of a nation's sovereignty over territory and people outside its own boundaries". Again, as you suggest, why don't you first change the articles you disagree with (ie, definition of colonialism) and then change it here. See if you can disprove that with defintion with references. --Dmcdevit 00:48, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

In my spare time. "Distinct" is a clearly wrong word. Such a definition will cover each and every expansion of a state. Also "colonialism" and "colony", just as "imperialism" and "empire", or "communism" and "commune" refer to different things; related but not the same. USSR may well be called colonialist and imperialist, but to call in "empire" or "metropoly" would be an overstretch. Mikkalai 01:07, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Something that definitely indicates USSR as not a colonial state is the fact that people in the 'colonies' were equal to Russians in every way, up to a point that most of the time USSR existed (1924-1981), it's highest politcal power was in hands of non-Russians. Stalin was Georgian. Khrushev and Brezhnev were both Ukrainians. Would it be imaginable that a Senegalese would become the president of France? Or could an Indian become british PM? Would a Filipino be able to become the president of USA? I don't think so. In this term, the republics of USSR as much of colonies as Wales or Scotland are colonies of the United Kingdom. As to satelite states, these had their own government and full souvereignity. There were more american troops in Germany or Britain then soviet troops in Poland. Of course, USSR invaded Hungary and Czechoslovakia to put them back in line, but isn't it the same as what USA has done to Panama? Nobody would be calling Panama a colony of the United States. There were many bad things about the USSR, but colonization was not among them, sorry. --Anton100 10:33, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] collaboration of the week eh?

Hmm, yes, well I can see that it could use a bit of work to bring it up to standard. I did study decolonisation at university - although this was almost entirely focussing on the British Empire, other empires were only brought in comparitively - but that was only undergraduate, and I don't know how much I can remember!

Some initial thoughts:

  • The current article seems awkwardly unsure whether to cover decolonisation as a general concept (Roman/Ottoman empires, etc) and in the more focussed post-WWII sense. Not sure if this would be better served with 2 articles, or just clearer/better sectioning/flow?
The incomplete list of random examples in the first historical paragraph is unnecessary here. If it is reinstated elsewhere, it should certainly begin with the Greek colonies, if not earlier: say, with the Elamite resistance to Babylon.Septentrionalis 20:48, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • For example, 1.1 seems to be the 'general' bit, and 1.2 is clearly the more specific. Section 2 and 3 are also being more specific, so it seems very odd for 1.2 to be in a different level/subcategory. Similarly, section 2 is clearly "a cause", but all other causes and analysis are mixed together in 3. It would make more sense to have a tree more like this, wouldn't it?:
    • 2. Decolonisation after WWII
      • 2.1 Timeline
      • 2.2 Causes
        • 2.2.1 UN resolution
        • 2.2.x etc
      • 2.3 Consequences/Aftermath
  • The timeline is good, but I was initially surprised to see the links go simply to the country: Kenya. I was expecting something like Independence of Kenya or History of Kenya#Independence, given that the story of each individual country's decolonisation has filled many books. But when I looked at History of Kenya I realised why - Wikipedia isn't really quite there yet, eh :)


As for causes/theories/explanations, the following need covering:

  • "push" factors - nationalist movements, instability/violence, etc.
  • spiralling cost of keeping an Empire, especially given...
  • geopolitical & military obsolesence in the post-nuclear Cold War / superpower era.
  • growing moral unnacceptability- UN resolution, UN condemnation, eg Hola camp massacre (Kenya)
  • Soviet interference theory


Major historical perspectives include:

  • "Bequeathing democracy" - the spin put on it by contemporary figures, basically! (Albeit one accepted by the more uncritical historians that followed). I.e., that the colonial powers were deliberating and carefully withdrawing in such a way as to leave stable countries along the Westminster system. E.g. "it is our object – and this is something which unites both sides of the House – to leave representative institutions behind us wherever we give up our rule... we cannot... in Africa... fall below our own highest standards" (Enoch Powell in the Commons)
  • "Slippery slope" - that deliberate minor changes soon begat unforeseen major changes, until full independence was granted far more rapidly than had originally been intended, if it had been intended at all. Increasing concessions leading to increasing demands from nationalists. E.g. "in Kenya, as elsewhere in Africa... the British, far from willing the outcome of their constitutional changes, found themselves overtaken by events" (J. Darwin, Britain and Decolonisation: The Retreat From Empire in the Post-War World, (London, 1988 (1994))
  • "Transformation" - the idea that decolonisation was not "losing" empire, only transforming it, into a looser, less formal quasi-empire: one with an economic element, obviously, given global capitalist 'free trade', and also one based on shared culture and values (see: the Commonwealth). E.g. "the process of moving colonies towards independence was, in effect, only moving towards another type of interdependence" (D.G. Boyce, Decolonisation and the British Empire, 1775-1997, (London, 1999))

Stevekeiretsu 18:17, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Scope

I am unsure as to the scope of this article. I took "Decolonization" to mean, as the title suggests it is, and as the lead sentence states: "Decolonization is the process of emancipation of colonies, the one opposite to colonization." Though clearly the main usage is post WWII, does that mean that any pre-WWII occurance of this phenomenon should not be discussed at all (even in this general article)? What I'm trying to say is that I added a short paragraph about earlier decolonization, which I thought could be good background at least if not expanded, but it was deleted shortly thereafter. What is the scope, and more importantly, why? --Dmcdevit 22:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There are, I think, two choices. The collapse of the European colonies since roughly 1945 - although the formal independence of Iraq in 1932 might be mentioned; or a list of the fall of every empire since Sargon I. The second is not doable on this scale, and would not be done in a week. Link to a world-history article (Fall of Empires)? Septentrionalis 23:56, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There are *more* than two options. What I had in mind was spending the bulk of the article on post-WWII, as it is the main usage and the largest occurence, but having introductory sections talking about the idea of decolonization, its trends (i.e. the after empires thing), and a few specific examples of earlier inctances, but not the same scale of discussion of post-WWII. I don't know how you could have an honest, cmprehensive article without even at least mentioning Rome, Mongol Empire, and post-WWI... at the very least. --Dmcdevit 00:32, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Post WWI is part of the subject, although it should be limited to the decline of empire during that period. Which of the following empires do you propose to omit: The Greek decolonisation in Parthia and Italy? The collapse of Abbasid Iran? The decolonization of both Americas, from 1776 onward?
Nor is the Mongol case parallel. The decolonization of our time has always left the former metropolis in existence, and in most cases still a Power. The Mongols dissolved.
Parallels of to the themes above, once discussed, are another matter; but they can be done anyway. Septentrionalis 05:20, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think that in general academic usage, when referring to "Decolonization" the time period, you are referring to the post-WWII emancipation from European colonization. I think this article ought to point to some general information on the decline of empire, but the meat of it should focus on that specific time period. —thames 13:23, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Drafting general comments Septentrionalis 15:18, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think you are misunderstanding me. I recognise post-WWII as the general usage, I was only suggesting including mention of what it meant in general with earlier examples, not every possible one. It's a minor point, but I just thought it seemed kind of shortsighted to neglect all that came before our century. --Dmcdevit 02:38, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I still think, on balance, that a list of previous empires and their collapse is the wrong way to go. But if you have something else to suggest, please do add it, and let' see. Septentrionalis 23:28, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What is a colony?

Is an area over which a pwerful country claims ownership, but claims in law to incorporate into its own territory and treat the inhabitants as citizens a colony? [Examples: Algeria/France. Soviet Central Asua/Soviet Union].

Is an area in which a powerful country puts an army, but over which it does not claim ownership in fact a colony? [Egypr from 1882-1954/UK, Poland/SU]

This article needs a policy (which need not be an absolute Yes or No) or the question will come up over and over again; it already has begun to Septentrionalis 23:28, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Colonization 1945" image

Just wondering, why is the U.S. pictured as a colony? And France and Italy for that matter? (BTW, I didn't even see that Italy was shaded till I opened the full image -- it's hard to tell the difference between the neutral gray and the slightly different shade of gray for Italy.)

Anyway, it's confusing, IMO, to color the colonial power the same color as its colonies. Why shouldn't they be neutral gray? I think it also lessens the impact of seeing exactly who was a colony back in 1945. In addition, the thing is reduced so much from its original size that it's difficult to tell, for example, that the Philippines were a U.S. colony.

So my 2 cents are that I'm not so sure this map should be included in the final article. –dablaze 23:22, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)

  • I believe the colors just represent the country's territory, not only its colonies. So the colonizer, for insance Britain, is the same color as its colonies. They are all fairly obvious as to which is the colony or colonizer, as long as you know where the few major countries are, so I don't see a problem with that. Maybe the size could be altered though. --Dmcdevit 23:28, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • You ask "why shouldn't they be neutral gray". The answer obviously is that then you'd be forced to read the labels to understand which color represents what. Now a mere glance at the colors of the map tells you all the information you need to knowAs for Italy's colour, anyone can fix it. And as for the size, I uploaded a huge image, just so that you can have it at the size you like.Aris Katsaris 01:33, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

The map doesn't include the Australian colonies, most notably in New Guinea. matturn 07:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Newfoundland and Labrador should not be marked as a colony; Dominion status 1907. See article. Septentrionalis 23:42, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Problems

As the previous contributors have said, this piece is unsure of its purpose so I have made some changes to clarify the more modern versions of process, leaving it to others to decide what the scope should be by either adding or deleting the examples.

David91

[edit] Hong Kong not leased

Hong Kong island and Kowloon weren't leased from the Chinese, only the New Terrorities were covered by the 99-year lease.

[edit] Lousianna Purchase

Most of the people living in the lands sold by France to the US did not become US citizens. The land was subsequently heavily colonized by Americans. Colonization *increased* after the purchase. matturn 07:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems of definition

1. Definition

Decolonization is the process by which a colony gains its independence from a colonial power, a process opposite to colonization.

--> I do not see what excludes the United States of America from this definition other than the fact that part of the colonizers declared independence instead of the natives. However, the USA declared independence from its colonial power. In order to exlude the USA, the definition needs to be adjusted.

2. Definition

In the 20th and 21st centuries "decolonization" usually refers to the achievement of independence by the various European colonies and protectorates in Asia and Africa following World War II.

--> This definition seems to exclude cases such as Macao and Hong Kong, which did not gain independence. In this case the first definition may be better.

Suggestion for an improved defintion (I have not found a way to exclude the USA but I think this proposal can better capture cases such as Hong Kong or Macao):

Decolonization represents the process of withdrawal of an imperial power from its colonial dependency either by force or voluntarily.

--Ghormax 12:43, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Why do we need to exclude the US? What about some of the commonwealth nations? IIRC, New Zealand and Austrial had a majority of colonists at the time of their independence and have a closer culture to that of Britain. BioTube 23:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Continuous addition:

There are some people (mainly Americans) who wishfully think and argue that USA was decolonized when it gained independence and acquired lands from the European powers in the 18th century. For example see the following quote from a previous version of this article: "From the late 18th century up through 19th century decolonization in the Americas occurred, beginning with American colonists' revolt against British rule in the present-day United States, and continuing through the collapse of the Spanish and Portuguese empires in Latin America." This is clearly a self evident nonsense. If a property gets stolen and then changed hands but still has not been returned to the original owner, will it be considered stolen or not? Probably this myth is circulated in order to justify USA as a legitimate nation

This is mostly commentary. If there is debate about whether or not the USA is truly decolonized, we can mention it in this article. But the statements need to be cited and written from a neutral POV, and probably need better placement than in the introductory paragraph.--Rockero 16:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I've removed those and replaced them with text the doesn't cast the US as an illegimate nation. Hopefully this new text will be less objectable. BioTube 02:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I've requested that this page be protected. BioTube 19:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid your modification to the lead is not much of an improvement, as it is still unsourced. If there is debate over whether the US was truly decolonized, it belongs either under "Differing perspectives", or perhaps as a new subsection on the history of the U.S. as a former colony-turned-colonizing power. Furthermore, I don't think it needs protection. I am trying to engage the IP in this discussion. Let's assume good faith first, shall we?--Rockero 19:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I figured it was good enough until something more substantial could be created. BioTube 21:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to paste part of the "discussion" (which, admittedly, does not discuss much) here, so editors can get a clearer idea of what the dispute is about.

If you wish to add information into the Decolonization article, please be sure that it is cited, verifiable, and written from a Neutral Point of View. If you need help with this, please comment on the talkpage as me on my discussion page.--Rockero 16:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
What I have done is removing and clarifying some "self evident" nonsense that was circulated by wikipedia already.--68.108.118.13
What you are doing is adding nonsense. There is no way that the US could be considered an illegitimate nation. BioTube 19:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Read agian what I put in the article. It should be self evident.--68.108.118.13

You can't put "self-evident" information into an article. It has to come from from a written source. If you can find a writer who has said that the U.S. is not a legitimate nation (I'm sure there are many), then add it to the article in their words. What you are adding and the way you are adding it makes it original research. Please do not keep adding in the same passage that has already been deemed inappropriate. Rather, take your conserns to the article's talkpage where the community can assess your concerns and help you get what you want included into the article. This is a community project that we are all working on and unilateral actions, especially controversial ones, are not looked upon kindly. If you continue to revert, you can be blocked for vandalism, so please, take it to the discussion page where we can work it out together. Thanks, --Rockero 19:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Do not lecture me. I have already told you that what I am doing was removing and clarifying a self evident nonsense that was already circulated by Wikipedia. Also do not keep on repeating that Wikipedia is going to block me.--68.108.118.13
It looks like Wikipedia is blocking me from editing the article on decolonization. I will wait for few days and see if wikipedia comes to sense and allows me to edit. If not then it just means Wikipedia has blocked itself from Truth :)--68.108.118.13
If I may, I believe the dispute is not over whether Britain ever lost dominion over the thirteen colonies, which is an agreed-upon historical fact, but whether or not the U.S. can claim a "legitimately-decolonized" status, since the institutions of the newly-independent territories were set up not by the indigenous colonized people, but by colonists and their descendents themselves. The text that is repeatedly added to (not removed from) the article reads,

"There are some people (mainly Americans) who wishfully think and argue that USA was decolonized when it gained independence and acquired lands from the European powers in the 18th century. For example see the following quote from a previous version of this article: "From the late 18th century up through 19th century decolonization in the Americas occurred, beginning with American colonists' revolt against British rule in the present-day United States, and continuing through the collapse of the Spanish and Portuguese empires in Latin America." This is clearly a self evident nonsense. If a property gets stolen and then changed hands but still has not been returned to the original owner, will it be considered stolen or not? Probably this myth is circulated in order to justify USA as a legitimate nation.

The problem with this text is that it is unsourced and not written from a neutral point of view. We can have a debate about whether or not the U.S. is truly "decolonized", and whether or not to include it in the article and how. But we need to have that discussion in order to reach a consensus. The place to have that discussion is on the article's talkpage. I am addressing myself both to 68.108.118.13 and Biotube. Thanks for both of your cooperation.--Rockero 20:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia opened the Pandora's box a while ago. What use is now talking about neutral point of view, consensus etc -- 68.108.11.13
Amigo, you need to clearly articulate your concerns about the article's deficiencies on the talkpage. You need to explain what you think is lacking/incorrect, and suggest specific ways to improve it. If you keep on adding your content without discussion, you will be blocked for violating the 3rr rule. Please respect the rules around here. (P.S. can't you see that I'm trying to help you out here?)--Rockero 04:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully this will stimulate discussion.--Rockero 04:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it's worth noting that the crazy guy's still at it. View his talk page. BioTube 03:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Do you think calling the contributor "crazy" is going to help? Sure, he seemed incapable of adhering to Wikipedia standards, but your baiting him only reinforces his notion that "Wikipedia is against him" or that "Wikipedia is against truth". We may have been able to use his criticism to improve the article, and now he is just jaded and bitter. Don't bite the newcomers, and always remain civil.--Rockero 17:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm probably gonna bow out of this and just simply revert the vandalism. I've got better things to do. BioTube 19:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charts

The charts are useful, but in the current form, they are cutting the text in two and impeding confortable reading. They should be moved at the end of the article, or even in another article, as was done for Chronology of colonialism. I'll move them at the end meanwhile, as to see how it goes. Lapaz 23:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

In the same way, the "post-colonial organization chart" is nice but incorrect. How it the ACP countries former colonies of the European Union? The other Commonwealth organizations nicely fit, but the ACP shouldn't be added there just for the sake of it. Lapaz 23:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Separate culture

I rm the sentence concerning a "separate culture" of the US. Although that could of course be argued (American Way of life), the US are part of the Western world. Lapaz 00:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] United States English?

Can we not affirm that colonisation has been more of a European matter than a United States one? So shouldn't this article be called decolonisation instead of decolonization? I thought that the wikipedia style on U.S. - British English said that European matters would be written about in British English (the official English of the European Union). --Aquarelle 07:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Be bold, especially on such matters ! Lapaz 12:50, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] USSR as a colonial power

The controversy above seems to have resulted in the sections in this article on the USSR being highly underdeveloped; this is a deficiency that IMO should be corrected. There are quite a few reliable sources discussing Soviet policy in Eastern Europe and Central Asia as a form of colonialism from as early as the 1950s:

  • W. W. Kulski, "Soviet Colonialism and Anti-Colonialism", Russian Review, Vol. Vol. 18, No. 2, 1959
  • Hayit, "Turkestan as an Example of Soviet Colonialism" Studies on the Soviet Union. 1961
  • "The Soviet Empire: Colonial Practices and Socialist Ideology" Russian Review, Vol. 59 No. 2 April 2000
  • Crankshaw et al, "Communism and Colonialism: Essays", Slavic Review, Vol. 24, No. 1 (Mar., 1965), ... from which I will quote, "In many ways this Soviet colonialism is unique: ... because it oppresses advanced and fully developed nations, including some whose cultural level is above that of Russia"
  • Many of Geoffrey Wheeler's and Baymirza Hayit's publications, etc.

While people from other SSRs may have theoretically had equal rights to Russians (including the right to secede from the USSR), this doesn't mean much with regards to whether or not Soviet rule there was colonialism; Koreans and Taiwanese theoretically had equal rights with Japanese, their territories sent legislators to the Japanese diet, and Koreans resident in Japan even had the right to vote, but no one would deny that Korea and Taiwan were Japanese colonies. In Kazakhstan, for example, huge numbers of Kazakhs can barely even speak the Kazakh language and have instead been Russified; seems like a pretty clear example of colonialism to me. Comments? cab 22:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, just a few months ago, I read an argument claiming that Russia itself was "colonized" by the USSR, because traditional Russian culture was surpressed, outsiders ruled over the nation, etc. Can't for the life of me remember where I read it, though, and I don't know whether this is a widely-accepted position in Russia or the academic world, or a far-out political position someone's staking out to get votes, or what. cab 22:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
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