Talk:Dead Sea scrolls

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Contents

[edit] Conspiracy Theory

From the article:

  • Vatican conspiracy theory

Allegations that the Vatican suppressed the publication of the scrolls were published in the 1990s. Notably, Michael Baigent's and Richard Leigh's book The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception claim that several key scrolls were deliberately kept under wraps for decades to suppress unwelcome theories about the early history of Christianity; in particular, Eisenman's speculation that the life of Jesus was deliberately mythicized by Paul, possibly a Roman agent who faked his "conversion" from Saul in order to undermine the influence of anti-Roman messianic cults in the region. The complete publication and dissemination of translations and photographic records of the works in the late 1990s and early 2000s - particularly the publication of all of the "biblical" scrolls - has greatly increased the credibility of their argument among mainstream scholarship. Today most scholars, both secular and religious, feel the documents are distinctly Jewish in origin, connecting them to early Christianity.

Okay now, Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh are NOT scholars. These are the guys who wrote Holy Blood Holy Grail, the Jesus Papers and the Messianic Legacy, basically conspiracy theories which have since been exploded. I would think the publishing of the Dead Sea Scrolls would have WEAKENED (not "strengthened") their argument (that the Vatican was purposely hindering the DSS publication because the DSS contained information devestating to Christianity). The DSS don't seem to be about Christianity at all (they only "connection" being they are about 2nd Temple Judaism, out of which Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism would emerge). Barbara Theiring and Robert Eisennman (sp?) are considered fringe scholars now in their understanding (Theiring much moreso). How to phrase that diplomatically without being misleading? If the documents are "distinctly Jewish in origin" how does that automatically connect them to early Christianity? The article is unclear.

[edit] ==

when is it thought the scrolls were written? what steps needed to be taken to prove they were not forged? Kingturtle 00:45 Mar 31, 2003 (UTC)

  • One guy thought they were medieval when first published, but a combination of archaeology, palaeography, and carbon dating convinces most today that they were written, variously, between 200 BCE and 70 CE (the destruction of Jerusalem in the First Jewish War thought to be the end of the period during which scrolls were deposited there), with most of the carbon dated ones being BCE. This is from memory.--Peter Kirby 08:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Israel obtained 4 of the 7 Dead Sea scrolls on 13 February 1955. -- What does that mean? There are far more than 7 altogether. Someone who is familiar with this please fix it. -- zero 09:16, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

  • I have fixed this and much expanded the "Discovery" section. --Peter Kirby 08:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Things to fix and improve

Comment:

The first paragraph of the discovery section is plagiarised from http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/dead_sea_scrolls/discovery.shtml

  • This no longer appears to be the case. Tbarron 05:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Another Possible Issue

It seems that as with most of such ancient documents the date and time of the creation of these scrolls is still debateable. I've read sources that say the Scrolls could have been made up to 60 years after the life of Christ and another source that said that the scrolls were possibly created 60 years before Christ's life. I'm not the person to make such a correction but I think more research could be done on this topic before this page should be considered at least temporaly complete.



  1. The article only mentions the Qumran cave but scrolls from the same time period have also been found at a number of other places in the Dead Sea area, such as at Masada.
  2. The argument over whether the scrolls were written on-site or brought from somewhere else needs to be aired. A recent contribution to this argument is mentioned here: Archeologists claim Essenes never wrote Dead Sea Scrolls (Haaretz)

--Zero 07:48, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

  • Unfortunately, the Haaretz link is dead. Fortunately, I have books by Golb and others and may be able to shed some light on this subject. --Peter Kirby 01:38, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Although this article is overall quite good, I find some of these articles tend to be somewhat bland and brief. In a comparison between this article and that on the Book of Daniel, I find that there are several unsubstantiated, broad-ranging claims made. (Eg. Daniel derives from two separate sources around the 2nd-3rd centuries AD, etc.) The fact is among the Dead Sea scrolls were found fragments from the Book of Daniel, proving that it had wide distribution well before the 2nd BC, a major point supporting that book's authenticity and completely unreported upon in either the Daniel article or the Dead Sea Scrolls article. Could I get some feedback on these points? TTWSYF

  • I don't see the "2nd-3rd centuries AD" claim in the Book of Daniel article. Was it cleaned up, or did you confuse the reference to centuries BC? The Dead Sea Scrolls prove (should that be "prove"? people are fussy about that word) that Daniel was written before AD 70 and provide evidence that Daniel was written in the centuries BC; however, they do not push the date of Daniel back before 200 BC. --Peter Kirby 01:38, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

This article is somewhat out of date. The introduction to the 2004 edition of Geza Vermes' "complete" translation of the scrolls describes more recent developments and has a more complete account of how the scrolls came to be published. Maybe someone with a deeper interest than I have can check it out and update the article. The published edition of the scrolls (called "Discoveries in the Judean Desert") is now up to something like 36 volumes with a few more to go.

---

"Geza Vermes, who had been involved from the start in the editing and publication of these materials, blamed the delay – and eventual failure – on de Vaux's selection of a team unsuited to the quality of work he had planned, as well as relying "on his personal, quasi-patriarchal authority" to ensure the work was promptly done." -- This contradicts itself. It was delayed or promptly done, not both. --Zero 07:28, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

---

New issue: 22:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)22:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The last sentence of Para. 1.0, Dates and Contents, reads: " The so-called Copper Scroll (1952), which lists hidden caches of gold, scrolls, and weapons, is probably the most notorious. ". A popular definition of 'notorious' reads: "Known widely and usually unfavorably; infamous: a notorious gangster; a district notorious for vice." Notorious also has several other negative conotations. I recommend that 'notorious' be replaced by 'controversial' to reduce POV. I propose the sentence be rewritten as follows: "The so-called Copper Scroll (1952), which lists hidden caches of gold, scrolls, and weapons, is probably one of the most controversial of the scrolls." Comments on this proposed change will be appreciated.

[edit] gay boy dead sea scrolls

I deleted: " There was even a new finding that another of the scrolls has been found deep in the caves of Athens, Greece. This is consistent with knowledge that the Jewish religion actually reached Europe before Constantine." Even if an ancient scroll was found in Athens, it is not revelant to this article unless it has a Dead Sea connection. Anyway, there is no citation given and we need one. --Zero 13:30, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Why isnt there any mention of the treasure that the scrolls spoke of? When they were first discovered the treasure was discredited as a hox but it was later revealed that archaeologists and researchers did this to prevent a treasure hunt. The treasure is supposedly that of the temple, saved before its destruction, if found it would be the greatest archaelogical find in human history.

Why isnt there any mention of the treasure that the scrolls spoke of? When they were first discovered the treasure was discredited as a hox but it was later revealed that archaeologists and researchers did this to prevent a treasure hunt. The treasure is supposedly that of the temple, saved before its destruction, if found it would be the greatest archaelogical find in human history.

  • There is now a mention of the treasure described in the Copper Scroll, but no substantive discussion. --Peter Kirby 01:19, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
  • "gay boy"?


[edit] The Treasure

Why isnt there any mention of the treasure that the scrolls spoke of? When they were first discovered the treasure was discredited as a hox but it was later revealed that archaeologists and researchers did this to prevent a treasure hunt. The treasure is supposedly that of the temple, saved before its destruction, if found it would be the greatest archaelogical find in human history. 68.252.132.13

That depends on whether it exists, and if it exists whether

The treasure would undoubtedly be worth more than all of those combined.

Copper Scroll The first of the Dead Sea Scrolls was discovered in 1947, and the famed Copper Scroll - made of pure copper - was found at Qumran in 1952. The Copper Scroll is an inventory - written in Hebrew - of the holy treasures of Solomon's First Temple, treasures hidden before the destruction of that temple by the Babylonians and treasures which have not been seen since.

The Copper Scroll states that a silver [or alabaster?] chest, the vestments of the Cohen Gadol (Hebrew High Priest), gold and silver in great quantities, the Tabernacle of the Lord (the Mishkan) and many treasures were hidden in a desolate valley - under a hill - on its east side, forty stones deep. The Mishkan was a "portable" Temple for the Ark of the Covenant. The writings in the Copper Scroll were confirmed 40 years later in the 1990s through an ancient text found in the introduction to Emeq HaMelekh ("Valley of the King(s)") -- a book published in 1648 in Amsterdam, Holland, by Rabbi Naftali Hertz Ben Ya’acov Elchanon (Rabbi Hertz).

[edit] Significance

I find the "Significance" section of the page wholly inadequate. In a garbled sentence it says nothing and is very confusing. Unfortunately, I lack the knowledge to adequately alter it, and I believe it ought to be either removed or completely edited. I think a solid sentence like "Unlike many modern theories, the Dead Sea Scrolls indicate that the Bible has not changed significantly from its original form" would stand in for the first part of the sentence. Also, I don't think that "though they do indicate that primitive Christianity was very different than Christianity as it is practiced today" fits in with the rest of the article, as "Interpretations" states that:

"Notably, Michael Baigent's and Richard Leigh's book The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception contains a popularized version of speculations by Robert Eisenman that some scrolls actually describe the early Christian community, characterized as more fundamentalist and rigid than the one portrayed by the New Testament, and that the life of Jesus was deliberately mythicized by Paul, possibly a Roman agent who faked his "conversion" from Saul in order to undermine the influence of anti-Roman messianic cults in the region."

As the theory was purely "speculations by Robert Eisenman" according to the article, could someone clarify and correct "Significance" to reflect whether these are still speculations? If they are, I believe this should be noted in this passage.

--whitti 8 July 2005 00:56 (UTC)

  • I have edited the "Signficiance" section in a way that should be provisionally acceptable. --Peter Kirby 01:30, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Grrr...

Why is it that any articles having to do with the history of religion are the subject of so much controversy and edit wars? I find it very difficult to get any accurate information from Wikipedia on this subject, and frankly, it's getting annoying. You've got inappropriate stuff from fundamentalists on one hand and "minimalists" on the other- not appropriate for an encyclopedia. Maybe this should be left to professionals.

I mean, you don't see this kind of controversy in articles about citrus fruit.

[edit] Controversy

Its rather obvious: religion is something that a majority of the world is very passionate about. Leaving this to 'professionals' would undoubtedly be against the ethos of Wikipedia. On the issue of the Dead Sea Scrolls, there really shouldn't be that much contention: they are concrete, historical documents.

--whitti 17:12, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

  • Citrus fruit is science; anyone can grab a citrus fruit off a store shelf and weigh it, taste it, etc.; the Dead Sea Scrolls, while partly archaeological science because they were excavated and subject to carbon dating, are texts interpreted to get any useful info out of them, and so there will be disagreement. The most noteable disagreement, in the case of the Scrolls, is whether they were written by Essenes. But what it is it that you (poster above Whitti) are referring to in particular? If you brought attention to the particulars, it could be fixed. --Peter Kirby 01:30, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Many apologies, I am a novice, a complete novice, in everything. I read that the book of Isaiah foretold the destruction of Babylon by King Cyrus and the coming of Jesus, written in 732 B.C.E. I need to ask if the Dead Sea scroll was genuinely carbon dated and if the complete book or which small fragments of Isaiah were found in the Dead Sea scrolls. Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Book_of_Isaiah"

  • At least two copies of Isaiah were found at Qumran, one fragmentary and another more complete. I don't know offhand if these particular ones were carbon dated. But, since the oldest scrolls are 2nd century BCE, the dates of the copies tell us nothing about whether Isaiah was "written in 732 B.C.E." (such precision!) or foretold the coming of Jesus (that's POV). --Peter Kirby 01:30, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

Somebody just deleted a chunk of information regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls and their significance to the LDS church. That deletion is not discussed. Can the info be salvaged, where should it be put? --Peter Kirby 02:36, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Date and Contents

I found a link that I thought was very interesting and fills out some dating facts but I'm unsure of the accepted "wiki way" to reference it. Could someone in the know add it to this section please? The link is to the University of Arizona Physics Department [1] . SOPHIA 22:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

The relevance of the Dead Sea Scrolls for better understanding Jesus and the Gospels is a controversial topic. In this chapter, we have emphasized that there is no direct relationship between Jesus and the scrolls, and none of these ancient documents was written by or for Christians as far as we know. Attempts have been made to find direct connections, but in many cases these are speculative, sensational, or bizarre (e.g., John Allegro and the sacred mushroom, Barbara Thiering's peshar technique, and the scrolls and the New Age Jesus). - "The Meaning of the Dead Sea Scrolls: Their Significance For Understanding the Bible, Judaism, Jesus, and Christianity," by James VanderKam and Peter Flint (Hardcover - Dec 1, 2002).

[edit] Other theories

"There is also writing about the Nephilim related to the Book of Enoch." ... I think this paragraph should have a link to this, "Nephilim" and the Book of Enoch along with a brief description. Without that the reader is left wondering what significance this statement has.

...To be honest, I guess I'm talking about me as the reader...but there must be others.

--8r13n 03:18, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

How did the Masoretic text, come to be mentioned in this article? The oldest surviving version of Hebrew scripture, actually what Christians refer to as the 'Old Testament', is the Codex Vaticanus, circa 4th Cen. of the common era. The text of the Codex V. is sometimes referred to as 'the Septuagint'. The context of the dead sea scrolls, when translated, seems to be close to 'the Septuagint', more so than the Masoretic text of the 9th C.--CorvetteZ51 08:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Codex Vaticanus is Greek scripture not Hebrew scripture, however the text did call for a bit of clarification. Feel free to let me know what you think of the present version. Hemmingsen 06:45, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I read a NYT article from 2001 I think that said the New Jerusalem Bible would be updated with permission from the Vatican to include Dead Sea Scrolls material. I have not seen any recently published version of this bible. Does anybody know if this material has filtered into any of the published bibles of today, and how much of it, etc? Perhaps much of the material and it's meaning is still under debate. Thanks. 22 February 2006

THE CHINESE CONNECTION An article by Neil Altman with the above title was published in the Toronto Star (Canada) on 04 November 2006. The article can be found at this link. (For information, the URL embedded in the link is http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1162421410861) Perhaps someone with more experience contributing to Wikipedia would know whether this information should be added to the main article. Thanks 08 November 2006

[edit] Map

I'm surprised someone hasn't mocked up a map of where these scrolls were found. Exactly how close to the Dead Sea were these caves? David Bergan 21:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Book of Nehemiah

According to the Date and contents section, the scrolls contain fragments from the Hebrew Bible, from all the books except the Book of Esther and the Book of Nehemiah. However according to 25 Fascinating Facts About the Dead Sea Scrolls it is all "except for the book of Esther". Library of Congress materials relating to the Qumran Library also has all "except Esther".

Does anyone know the status of the Book of Nehemiah? Hemmingsen 16:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Temple Scroll

The Spring 2006 issue of Christian History & Biography (Issue 90) has a snippet on page 9 saying that the Temple scroll is on view for the first time outside of Israel in the Cleveland, Ohio at the Maltz Museum through October 22, 2006. We don't have a separate article on this scroll, so I'm letting you all know here in case you want to do anything about it. GRBerry 02:22, 3 June 2006 (UTC) meow

[edit] Biblical Documents Written Before AD 100

I'm fairly certain the Septuagint was written before AD 100 and contains most of the Christian Old Testament so the opening paragraph is seemingly incorrect in saying that the DSS is "practically the only known surviving Biblical documents written before AD 100." It seems to put too much emphasis on the DSS. I think a mention of the Septuagint is relevant here.

Presumably the sentence is referring to extant manuscripts - there's no mss of the Septuagint earlier than the DSS. PiCo 07:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Essay-Entry Template

This article, though full of citations and good information, reads like an essay. Some cite templates, rewording of [[WP:OR|OR] sounding paragraphs, and copyediting would go a long way. /Blaxthos 00:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Number of documents

"Roughly 825-872" is a pretty strange number. Why so specific on the upper end? Why don't we know how many there are? --Masamage 00:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

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