Talk:David Peace
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Can we ditch the "amazingly well-written" in the Clough book section? This isn't a Year 9 English homework entitled 'My Favourite Book.' 88.109.6.79
- I have searched in vain elsewhere for anywhere to ask the many questions that must be in the minds of other readers of David Peace's Red Riding Quartet. For example, (1) when and what were the circumstances of the meeting between Eddie Dunford and George Oldman, prior to 14 Dec 1974? ("a long time ago" - Dunford, p.26, Nineteen Seventy Four, hereafter NSF).
I suspect that not much hangs on that one, but there are others which frustrate me. Rather than merely accept this as the intention of the author to approximate in our minds the uncertainty of his own characters as they (or most of them) try to uncover the facts, I'd like to start a kind of forum, our very own Room 27, Redbeck Motel, as it were (without the smells or splinters) I shall return anon, Antigeist
- Fantastic idea! I think that these 4 books would unearth more stuff like this after several readings. Having read them all only the once, I intend to return to them sometime soon. As the person who instigated the David Peace entry, I'd like to say thanks for this imput from Antigeist. - mike1971inter.
- Thanks to mike1971inter for keeping me company here. Yes, I'm in the middle of a third reading and still discovering stuff. Here are some more questions, many of them trivial, arising from NSF:
(2) Whose is the voice in Eddie Dunford's head (p.21), saying "you've actually got people feeling sorry for him, I never thought that was possible"? Strangely this made me think of Deep Throat talking to Woodward in the garage ...
(3) When exactly - and why exactly - does Sgt Craven call the Post asking to speak to Dunford? (p.33, "he said it was urgent")? Because they've found Clare's body?? Or simply because Oldman, once alerted to Dunford's suspicions about the links between this and the Garland and Ridyard cases, has already set the heavy mob onto him?
(4) Whose are the Rover and the Jaguar parked in the drive at John Dawson's Shangrila (pp.81-82)? (Councillor Shaw has a purple Rover (p.201), Derek Box and Dawson himself drive Jags). Foster is present, but what does he drive? Is the implication that he came with Shaw? But if so, why doesn't Dunford remember the purple colour - unusual, no? - when he later (p.???) meets Shaw in the carpark vis the photo blackmail?
(5) Why has Hadden sent Paul Kelly ("and not Dicky or Norm? Why today? Coincidence?" p.84) to take the pictures for Eddie of the Goldthorpes' house?
(6) How do policemen Craven and Douglas know they'll find him there at the Goldthorpes'? (I suppose Hadden tipped them or Oldman off??) And what are they threatening him about ("Don't go bothering people who don't want bothering" p.90. Is this just Dawson and Foster (from p.83)? Or has Craven been trying to catch and threaten him since the phone call reported on p.33?
(7) Why (and to where) was George Marsh transporting Clare Kemplay's body, when he was hit by Pat Foster and Johnny Kelly in the car? (Is this triggered by Dunford's request, pp.16-18, to Hadden speak to Oldman about the possible links between the cases? Is there enough time for that?
(8) Who killed the Dawsons (p.289)? Molloy tells Jobson it was - or looked like - suicide (NET, p.351). That Marjorie's head is bashed inside a freezer bag, and John's hands are bound doesn't completely rule out a novel suicide pact, but given that Molloy later shows a propensity for tidying up loose ends, we might consider him in the frame for this one?
I shall return anon, Antigeist
NINETEEN SEVENTY SEVEN (Hereafter NSS)
(1) Who killed Clare Strachan?
Well, I don't know, but notwithstanding the similarities between this and the JaniceRyan murder and Bill's cast-iron alibi for that one, I still favour Bill for this on the utterly circumstantial ground that he's the only (other?) one who ever says "long time no see", that he didn't have a day job at the time (tho' perhaps he's helped by ex-PC Douglas, newly discharged from service), and that he perhaps knows Clare from the magazine. (But Jobson, killing Grace Morrison (NET, p.??), also says he knows Clare).
But I think that the more important question is:
(2) Why is Clare Strachan killed?
And I think that this in turn waits upon an understanding of the extent of the cover up of the events of December 1974. So, for instance:
(3) How are the West Yorkshire Metropolitan Poice Force getting along with their investigations into the murders of Wymer, Garland, Foster, and the deaths of the Dawsons, not to mention the Strafford shootings?
But when we hear most thoroughly about the Strafford case, through Hunter's recollections of his own aborted investigation (NE, p.???), it looks as though Derek Box has been kept completely out of the frame for any of the December 1974 murders. What about Eddie Dunford, who confessed to killing Wymer and Garland? Eddie, however, is "missing", at least according to Jack Whitehead. And presumably the police can't use his confession to those killings without then having to explain why they "released" him (NSF, pp.262-265).
So, I imagine that the answer to question (3) is: not very well. Because any real progress on any of them, threatens to expose the truth about any or all of the others.
I suggest then that (2) Clare is killed, not primarily if at all because she has learned from BJ what happened during the early hours of Xmas Eve 1974 in the Strafford Arms, but chiefly because she can put Eddie Dunford together with Paula Garland and because she knows that the police had Dunford in custody (p.262) on Sunday 22 Dec 74.
(4) Do Craven and Douglas remember that BJ was present at the Strafford? Is his presence deduced from or confirmed by the taken takings and the picked pockets? Or would that be to attribute West Yorkshire's finest with a competence they have not yet demonstrated? So: is BJ simply not recognised by Craven (eg NSS pp.284-286 with NEE, pp.242-243)? Or is Craven perhaps not even aware that there are any surviving non-police witnesses? Another way of putting this question is to ask: if they kill Strachan in Preston, why don't they kill BJ too? If I'm right about NSS question (2) above, then they don't know about BJ, it was only ever Clare they were chasing.
And while we're here we may as well ask: (5) What happened to Dunford? Killed by Jobson alone (his willingness, NEE, p.353: "I'll take ...", given greater imperative and immediately voiced as such by Molloy, when they discover what he's done at the Strafford?) Or does the Badger help him out? (The Badger has perhaps form for 'tidying up', cf. NSF question (8).)
Antigeist will return in November.
- NSS continued
OK, so, in a three week book that opens on 29 May 77, we've got as far as 21 Nov 75. Let's try to move along - with just a careful thought of (rather than a fullblown flashback to) April 75 - with:
(6) who altered the Coroner Report / Inquest statement, giving Strachan's blood type? (And when?) And who swapped the original for the photocopy (NSS, p.58)- Rudkin or Ellis?
If we take Rudkin at face value, at least when he's drunk (NSS, p.87), then he doesn't know what's going on (he is suspicious and concerned perhaps because he remembers inoccuously pulling the Strachan files and giving them to ... Jobson?)? So I imagine this signifies that Craven altered it when he and Rudkin went over after Joan Richards (Jobson was in charge of the Campbell and Richards investigations and must have discovered but held back the Ripper's blood type) and therefore that Ellis was assigned the original-for-copy swapping task (his willingness and capability in this standing him in good stead, when spaces in the organisation (Rudkin's, Craven's) open up later on).
(7) Who posted the Ripper letter in Preston on Thursday 2 June?
(8) Who attacked Linda Clark on night of Friday 3 June?
(9) Who wrote/posted the next Ripper letter from Sunderland on Monday 6 June? Are we, in hindsight, to presume that Ryan is already dead? Are we to be suspicious of Hunter's idea (NE, p.237) that Bob Douglas is often reported as "missing" by Mrs Sharon Douglas, nee Pearson?
Following my suspicions about the Coroner's Report, it's tempting to see the letter (7) as support for covering up Strachan's death as a 'Ripper job'; and the assault (8) as proof of the authenticity of the letter (7), which will in turn support the idea that Strachan was killed by the Ripper.
Rudkin, if I am right about question (1), doesn't know who killed Strachan, but he can see that it's a different kind of assault. Jobson, who probably does know, sees that linking the Strachan killing to the Ripper is going to be implausible: so in the next novel, we find him expressing to Hunter exactly the same scepticism about the Strachan-Ripper link that Rudkin, for genuine reasons, expresses in this novel. And he (Jobson) carries that scepticism over to the letters (if the attackers were different, then the letters must be bogus) - even tho' he's probably the one masterminding their production!
So: when the Ripper kills Marie Watts, Jobson swings into action. Rudkin is a bit out of the loop (because he's shagging Louise?) and is a possible 'goat' for the Strachan murder cover-up. Jobson uses Ellis to swap the bllod group report. Then the letter, then the attack. Douglas? Craven? Alderman and Prentice? I have noooooo idea!
Which segues nicely to:
(10) Who killed Janice Ryan?
(11) And why was she killed?
This, I believe, stems from her approaching Eric Hall with knowledge of the PO robberies, carried out by the Spencer Boys and BJ. (Incidentally, was Clive Barton really a member of the PO robbery gang? cf. Jobson, in NE, p.107 and what Anita Bird tells Whitehead in NSS, p.99-100, but that could obviously be a different Clive in Armley). I wondered whether Ryan's death was meant to be connected to her being raped (and photographed) by the four Bradford Vice policemen; but was that simply an illustration of what Bradford Vice are like?
Antigeist will return in December.
- Just found this discussion, perhaps you can help me with my biggest question concerning NSF - did Eddie Dunford kill Paula Garland? My reasons stem mainly from the cryptic; "Inside, thinking, when I get home to you, I'm going to show you what I can do, taking the knife from the kitchen drawer (where I knew it would be)" p. 239. Although Peace seems to tie things up at the Strafford with Derek Box saying "Like I said, I'm no angel.." p.294 he never gets to say anything else as Dunford shoots him there and then, so is it necessarily a confession? and if so why kill PG just to implicate Dunford in Mandy Wymers' murder when Dunford's already a main suspect from being seen there around the time of her (Wymers')death. During Dunfords' interrogation he's shown photographs of Paula's body, raped and scalped, just like Fraser tells Dunford the body of Wymer had been found - does this put the MO into Dunfords' head? When he describes slashing her bed up and trashing her room, when he breaks into PG's house, is he actually blocking out the memories from his mind of him actually murdering her?. Possibly, I've misunderstood things, but as this is the only forum I can share these thoughts on, perhaps someone can put me right?, many thanks - zenith45
GB84 is a fucking excellent book. The title might allude to the organisation set up by ex-military goon David Stirling in the mid 1970s to combat a possible general strike, GB75. Walter Walker appears, as a fictional character, and he was another one for instituting military rule in the event of a workers' uprising. - james
[edit] Paula Garland
I think Derek Box rather than Eddie killed Paula. Wasn't she in a on/off relationship with Box's arch rival Foster? Possibly Box murdered her to hurt Foster in revenge for what was done to Box's brother.
Very confusing book though. Sustains its momentum up until the last few chapters when it seems to fall apart in a mad rush to the finish. I was always puzzled by Johnny Kelly's part in the death of George Marsh. We know from 1983 that Maurice Jobson killed Marsh, but where did Johnny get the hammer from? Has he been down the mine shaft as well?
Linden
[edit] GREAT IDEA
Compliments to Antigeist for the "Redbeck Motel Idea" ! (a pity that there's not much people visiting Room 27) Unable to offer any new clues to the questions regarding NSF and NSS I would like to ask two questions on 1980:
1) Who killed Bob Douglas and his daughter (and why) ? It seems quite obvious that Douglas became victim of his former friends and corrupted cop collegues to get rid of one the last survivers of the Stafford shooting, BUT
2) How is it possible that the tape found in the "Death Factory" (I read the quartet in Italian and don't know the original name of "Fabbrica della morte") wears the finger prints of Jack Whitehead? Whitehead had been closed in the psychiatrical hospital until he was "brought home" by the perverted reverend and Barry Anderson. But it is very improbable that those two slaughtered Douglas and his small daughter... why should they? So how comes that there are Whitehead's finger prints on the tape found in the factory?
Farid, Milan/Italy
[edit] Re: Great Idea
Hi Farid
Here's my thoughts (for what they're worth): 1) Who killed Bob Douglas and his daughter (and why) ? It seems quite obvious that Douglas became victim of his former friends and corrupted cop collegues to get rid of one the last survivers of the Stafford shooting,
Italic textYes, I think Douglas was killed by some of Jobson's mob, possibly Prentiss and Murphy, as they're the ones sent to kill Peter Hunter at the end. I'm not sure why, but possibly due to his close connection with Dawson who is also done away with. I suspect the two of them knew too much about Jobson and co's operation and were likely to talk to the Manchester police team if pressured. Italic text
BUT
2) How is it possible that the tape found in the "Death Factory" (I read the quartet in Italian and don't know the original name of "Fabbrica della morte") wears the finger prints of Jack Whitehead? Whitehead had been closed in the psychiatrical hospital until he was "brought home" by the perverted reverend and Barry Anderson. But it is very improbable that those two slaughtered Douglas and his small daughter... why should they? So how comes that there are Whitehead's finger prints on the tape found in the factory?
Italic textThis has puzzled me for a while. I think it's down to Jack being psychic because when Hunter asks him about it he says something like "Futures present, futures past" (could be wrong about the exact wording). 1977 mentions Jacks tape collection in passing and I think the death factory tape was made well before 1980. As to who sent it, not really sure. Maybe Jobson and his cronies raided Jack's flat when he was committed after his encounter with the Rev Laws and took the tapes away.
I'd be very interested to read what anyone else thinks.
regards
LindenItalic text
