Talk:David Miscavige

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Archives

24 April 2005 - 25 May 2006

Deleted the nonsense about David Miscavige accompanying Cruise and Holmes to the Maldives. Unless anyone can show that this actually happened and wasn't paparazzi drivle...

Contents 1 "Chinese School" 2 Corrections and New Data 3 IRS deal 4 Where is Miscavige on "the Bridge"?

[edit] "Chinese School"

Please remember two things: first of all, we have an article now for describing patter drills and the controversy over them. All we need in this article is the fact that Miscavige instituted 'em, a simple description of what they are, the fact that some Scientologists view them as a change to Hubbard's practices, and a simple description of why they think that. All the gory details should be saved for the patter drill article. There, it's good to quote the exact name and date and letter of the various policies cited by various sides as being relevant; here, it's not, because all we need here is a simple summary and a link that can be followed by those who need more details.

Second, please remember that when writing for Wikipedia, you cannot make assumptions that your audience already knows or is involved in the debate. Both sides have been arguing, on the talk page and in the article itself, about whether or not patter drills constitute a clear violation of "Chinese school" and no one seems to have considered that the average reader of the article has no idea what "Chinese school" is supposed to refer to. It's possible to glean from context that it's a policy authored by Hubbard, but that's it. Providing a link to Chinese school does no good, since that links to an article on actual Chinese schools, and not whatever Hubbard thought Chinese schools were like or what he used them as a metaphor for.

In summary, if you want to describe why one particular faction has claimed that patter drills violate "Chinese school" (or that they don't) then 1) do it in Patter drill, not David Miscavige, 2) remember that your audience does not all come to the article already knowing what "Chinese school" means in the context. -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

It surely must appear to everyone, as it does to me, that User:Fahrenheit451 is attempting to present into this Miscavige artile, every bit of controversy possible in every area possible, as a sort of erudite attack against Miscavige. Of course, we understand that motivation, but nonetheless, there are many examples of articles about noteable peope who are alive today. Let us work toward a presentation as good as any other noteable person, still alive. Terryeo 18:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Terryeo is notified to stop his personal attacks. He is on a personal attack probation.--Fahrenheit451 01:33, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I see you have asked around about my above statement, User:Fahrenheit451. Let me assure you, my reference is to a neutral point of view of an article's topic. Widely published to be presented as widely published, while narrowly published (small newspaper, etc.) be presented in like manner; while personal opinion on personal websites does not meet WP:V at all. WP:NPOV directs us, a neutral tone, an infomative style. Terryeo 01:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Corrections and New Data

"As a result, it appears that MIscavige is now not merely Chairman of the RTC Board, but the sole RTC director. "

Since non-profits by law have some minimum number of directors (more than one), this amounts to an accusation. It would seem to require more verification, though I don't personnally object.

I have modified the language to avaoid making an unfounded accusation. Does RTC publish a list of its officers? BTfromLA 01:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Not that I know about. As a non profit I believe they are required to do so, but for some reason they are immune to investigation. (Source Eric Pham, an FBI agent I didn't believe at the time.)

The IRS investigation and suicide of his mother in law you removed don't really contributed that much--even though she is the worlds only 5 shot suicide.

But the part about Miscavige visiting the IRS in 1993 is just wrong. The visit was in 1991, October I think, and the IRS commissioner he visited resigned by January of 1992, many think as a result of the visit.

Perhaps the story of the IRS and scientology deserves its own web page and just a pointer from here.

There is also recent information that is probably accurate that DM no longer lives at Gold.

What is the source of that? BTfromLA 01:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

In the context of a discussion about a private elevator for DM being added to the super power building in Clearwater, this was posted to the msg board of xenu.net. Keith Henson 02:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

"And speaking of the Main Building at the Complex in Hollywood. Dave could not stand that place and how DB it was. ASI had bought a huge housing complex up the street from where they worked and were going to live there. Dave heard about this and it was set-up for him and his staff instead. It is a luxurious set-up that makes the complex look like the concentration camp that it is. This is where he actually lives for the most part. He hates the Int Base and the staff there and prefers to live up the street from . . . "

This information is not of the class the Wikipedia normally requires, but the other infomation on where DM lives is no better than rumor either. (ASI is Author Services, Inc., and as I recall, they worked out of a building a mile or two to the West of Hwy 101 on Hollywood Blvd.) Keith Henson 02:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

"how DB it was?" Please translate!

Sorry, with "BT" (body thetan) in your name I figured you were up on scientology jargon. DB is "degraded being," short hand here for "low class slum." Keith Henson 13:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

His living at Gold has been reported by the LA Times and other reputable publishers--hence we can include it. If there's good reason for doubting that it is current, though, the language might be changed to reflect that: "as of 2004..." or whatever. BTfromLA 03:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

How does the Wikipedia report where they live for people such as John Travolta who are known to have several homes? Keith Henson 13:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Notable people that have multiple residences should have all their primary residences listed in the article (assuming the information is Verifiable). Vivaldi (talk) 23:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The stories about physical abuse have been confirmed by so many people, a good number of them in places where they would know, that it seems hard not to include it. After all, a Wikipedia page about Jim Jones pre Jonestown would be amiss not to indicate that there were stories of abuse from people who got out. If there is some rule against this text, please advise me.

There are rules about what sources Wikipedia draws upon. If these accusations were described in an article published in, say, The New York Times, we could mntion it, citing the article. But when the best sources are newsgroup or message board posts and anecdotal reports on personal websites, it doesn't meet the standard for a "reliable source," especially for an inflammatory claim like that one. BTfromLA 01:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not a statement that DM actually abuses people, just that there are reports. That there *are* reports is both true and easy to verify. Would it be more acceptable to say "postings?" It could also be changed to "abusing" instead of beatings.

Your argument makes sense, but it is a controversial position--since we can't use newsgroup postings as a source of fact, can we simply allow that these posts exist, without making any claim as to their reliability?

That's essentially what was done with the page about Mark Rathbun. (There is no Warren McShane page yet.) True, you can go to scientology's own page and see they are no longer there, but you have to rely on postings or personal recolection, or the Wayback Machine (unreliable since scientology forces so many pages off there) to see that they ever were there. And for reasons I don't understand, the "unpersoning" of these two has never made it into any news story, though it would be major news for top executives to vanish without a trace from any other entity of such a size.

Incidentally, I don't doubt your addition "(Even historical news stories were altered to remove any mention of them.)" but I wonder where this source is? Keith Henson 13:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Currently the WayBack Machine at archive.org maintains a version of the RTC.org webpage that lists Rathbun. Of course CoS could have this deleted at any time. Vivaldi (talk) 23:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

My sense is that the majority of editors here would say "no," that we can't even report that these rumors exist unless the rumors have already been reported by a credible publisher. (If you are curious about the reasoning behind such a policy, take a look at WP:NOR and WP:V. BTfromLA 03:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, this information is certainly "not original research" and it sure is as verifiable as apple pie, i.e., any person can follow the links and see it is there. But I see your point. Perhaps there should be a WP:F policy. Keith Henson 13:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

"Since October of 2005 there have been persistant reports on alt.religion.scientology and Operation Clambake of Miscavige beating high level officials, particularly Mike Rinder.[1], [2]"

Keith Henson 00:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

PS. Could someone archive the bulk of this page?

Yes I can, you lazy bastard! :) Vivaldi (talk) 23:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IRS deal

The date is wrong, the IRS commissioner involved was gone by 1993. See Fred T. Goldberg, Jr.. There is a lot about this in the NYT article by Douglas Franz, [3]

I don't want to fix it without consensus. Keith Henson 13:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Whats with the Category[American autodidacts] thing? does he fit the defintition of an autodidact 70.100.138.217 05:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)somechooch

[edit] Where is Miscavige on "the Bridge"?

Is it known whether Miscavige has completed any or all of the OT levels? Is there reason to believe he may have experienced some of the unreleased teachings (e.g., OT IX)? Is this info available for other Scientology execs? BTfromLA 17:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Does anybody know if the lad has had all those extraterrestrial-originated "spirits" removed or does he still bear the burden of hauling arounf multi-million-year-old "creatures" deposited upon Earth by that nefarious nogoodnik whose name I can not recall?Obbop 16:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)