Talk:David Koresh

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[edit] The only way to be neutral

when talking about Koresh is to mention everything about how he assaulted CHILDREN. I am a child who will forever with my scars. It SCARES, ANGERS AND ENRAGES MY BEYOND *BELIEF* to see people sympathize or look at him in any light but the absolute worst. Do you know what it was like at a young age to knows young girls who can barely menstruate. Be child brides? Be tools. I speak for every child victim when I say you are all ridiculous.

Oh come on do you have any proof about these claims? If you do please show it.


I removed the bit about the name ("son of God meaning death" or something like that). David indicated his claimed descent from King David, while Koresh is Hebrew for Cyrus, who was referred to by deutero-Isaiah as the Messiah. Danny 01:48, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Ok thanks. I think the "son of God meaning death" was based on a book published by his former right-hand man that I read a long time ago. I may have just remembered wrong. Pakaran 05:35, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Removed the phrase "M16" - that's US military hardware, not among the allegations of the warrant used to justify the ATF raid. No M16s were found after the fire. The FBI claimed 48 illegal automatic weapons but never allowed independent testing of this evidence to determine if they would, in fact, fire full-auto.

What is the reason for the NPOV tag? I see nothing on the talk page, no note in the edit history, and no real reason for it. It was added on the 28 of July by an IP user. I'm removing it. If someone wants to add it back and explain why, it's fine by me. 24.7.186.18 06:30, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

The user who added the NPOV tag seems to have added a lot of biased things to the raid section. The information that the chemicals are banned in warfare is not needed since it is an individual government's choice on what is and isn't banned (for example, many police officers and normal citizens in the USA have made use of mace which is also banned in war). The statement that Reno knew the gas would kill the children and then lied needs to be cited to remain. The final statement is completely out. 24.7.186.18 06:39, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] General Comments

I deleted a paragraph worth of pornographic trash (terminology such as "sucking cock" and "fucked Michael Jackson") that belonged on a hustler website instead of here.

I see this now, the person vandalised the page on the 30th of November and they continue to vandalise other pages to this day. They appear to have a static IP and so can be easily banned if this is something Wikipedia do. His page can be found here - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=70.182.241.67


This is a challenging article to write, as there are seemingly two sides to this story. One side is that Koresh was a wackjob child-molester who liked to shoot FBI agents. This story says that the FBI rightfully killed the residents of the compound. The other is that the FBI used excessive force, directed at revenging losses incurred by the ATF in shooting many of the defenseless residents and burning down their compound. Its worth doing some real research (which I'm not willing to do) prior to writing this one.

[edit] NPOV

I've re-added the NPOV tag to the final section of this article (N.B. it wasn't me who added it in the first place). Reasons as follows:

"The manufacturers of the chemical agent specify that it should not be used in enclosed buildings". I'd like to see a source for this - it should be reasonably easy to either confirm or refute.

"...the compound caught fire" Correct and verified by many sources.

"...probably due to a combination of kerosene lanterns the davidians were using for light..." They may well have been using Kerosine lanterns, but there is no evidence to suggest that these were a cause of the fire. On the contrary, on audio recordings made before the fires started, the Davidians can clearly be heard saying "don't light it yet and "spread the fuel".

"...that were knocked over by the tanks". The Danforth Report which was commissioned by The Special Counsel concluded with 100% certainty that the cause of the fire were the deliberate actions of the Davidians. I.e. the tanks were not responsible for starting the fires.

"...the flamable nature of CS gas" Is CS gas flammable? That should be easy to check - I'll take a look into that one later.
Edit: This retailer states "potential fire hazard" whereas this MSDS states "...may burn but does not readily ignite." It's not exactly compelling proof, but it suggests that CS is flammable to a degree at least. Robotmannick 11:41, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

"...and the incindiary devices that the government reluctantly admitted three years later to having used that day". The "incendiary devices" were in fact flares used for lighting the night sky as well as pyrotechnic gas cannisters, the last of which devices were used over 4 hours prior to the fires and at no time were they used inside the compound. However, there was an initial denial over the use of any "incendiary devices".

"Barricaded into their building, 75 Branch Davidians, including Koresh, were unable to escape the blaze and died." An FBI-operated vehicle breached the front doors of the building providing a means of escape for those inside. Likewise, a similar breached occurred in the gymnasium area. At least one woman was seen to exit the building from the front door, however she then re-entered the burning building, only to be forcibly removed by an FBI agent. I would therefore suggest that those inside were not "unable" to escape the blaze but "unable or unwilling".

Robotmannick 07:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I am the one who removed it and I was going to work on it but got side tracked. The tag was first added by an IP user who added many of the things you took complaint with. I thought it was odd that they added an NPOV tag and than added so many things that made the article worthy of it. The old "Raid" text was a somewhat clinical explanation of what took place. My guess is that the user who first added the tag supported Koresh (or at least took issue with the way he was dealt with) and decided to add the NPOV tag (because they thought a non-critical raid description was biased) and added elements to make the discription more critical of the legal forces. The Raid section should probably be more closely restored to its original form. Revision as of 05:21, 28 July 2005 added all POV issues to the Raid section. - 24.7.186.18 19:29, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the input. I took a look back at some previous edits and made an attempt at rewriting it. Feel free to have another go if you still don't think it's right. Robotmannick 10:46, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm kind of new around here and not sure how to add the link properly, but an author by the name of David Hardy has evidence released by the government in response to freedom of information act requests several years after the Danforth report was written that might help resolve some of the issues. Salty Kid | talk 05:53, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the info Salty Kid. I'll let you know if I turn anything up on that front. Robotmannick 12:34, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] POV

"The federal negotiators, for their part, treated the situation as a hostage crisis, despite a two hour video tape sent out by the Davidians with some of the children, in which the adults and older children/teens appeared to explain clearly and confidently why they chose of their own free will to remain with David."

How is this not POV?

POV in what way? I realize you have a point, but I apologize that I am missing it (I can be a little dense sometimes). Please help me see what you are seeing. --DanielCD 21:31, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
A note to anyone who cares: Don't drop questionable criticism about something and then never return to support/clarify it. If this sentence needs fixing, I have no idea what the author of the above complaint had in mind, and hence no idea how to remedy his complaint.
If he cares so little, why should anyone else? --DanielCD 00:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need verification for statutory rape claims

None of the references cited mention Koresh impregnating a 15-year old or being a statutory rapist. Can someone add an appropriate reference for those claims? Thanks. Kaldari 23:17, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I found a reference to the 15-year old girl, although it says she "became pregnant" rather than "Koresh impregnated her". I have corrected the article to state the former. As for the claims of Koresh having sex with minors in later life, it seems these claims are disputed. I am removing the statutory rapist category for now, in the interests of WP:V and WP:NPOV. If someone adds some better references for this claim, perhaps it can be added back. Kaldari 23:58, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree that this is a firm case where such categories can be misused. All the info I've seen on such accusations has been heresay, which certainly does no good in making a case for category inclusion. It needs a very strong citation, as well as reasoning here on the talk page as to why it's so notable to point out. --DanielCD 00:20, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Which merely means you aren't especially well-informed. Kiri Jewel testified before congress that Koresh began raping her when she was 10 years old. This is not "heresay."

And perhaps you aren't so well-informed either. Kiri Jewell's testimony alleged a molestation, but one that stopped short of penetration. Also, saying that he "began" raping her implies that there were other occasions, when she said there was only one incident. And while she did tell Congress that it took place when she was 10, at other times she has said 11, leaving some ambiguity about her exact age. While her testimony is not hearsay, it is still the allegation of a single person.
Having said that, whatever he did or didn't do with Kiri Jewell, I agree that some of his polygamous brides were adolescents. After all, he legally married his first wife when she was 14. My problem is whether "statutory rape" is a useful concept, when historical and cultural concepts of the age of consent differ so markedly. Hundreds of millions of Muslims believe that Muhammad betrothed a 6-year-old girl, and consummated their marriage three years later. But I don't think there is anything to be gained by adding Muhammad to Category:Rapists or Category:Pedophiles, nor many other figures throughout history who had such relationships. --WacoKid 18:10, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
And let's not forget Kiri Jewell's own grandmother disputed her "molestation by Koresh" testimony and Kiri was the focal point of a very ugly divorce. Also, in the State of Texas (at least back then) a 14 could legally marry with a parent's consent. The Waco sheriff went on record saying, as far as prosecuting or even charging Koresh with any crime, if a parent gives consent there was nothing he or his deputies could do. Mr Christopher 19:21, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Trivia"

I have removed the trivia bit about the band and its supposed song about David Koresh, for a few reasons.

First, there are many songs inspired by David Koresh or the Waco situation (here's one list), so singling out one (obscure) band's song seems arbitrary and unwarranted.

Second, a Google search for "nogudnik waco" turned up no hits. (Even a search just for nogudnik didn't turn up that many hits, and most weren't even about the band.) I also went to the band's website, and again found no mention of the song. So there is a conflict with Wikipedia's verifiability policy. Of course, it's not the case that "only what is online is verifiable," but if the band itself doesn't mention the song on their own site, how can people not in Sydney know that the song even exists?

Third, a Trivia section may be unencyclopedic, especially when the trivia only relates secondhand to the subject of the article.

I've also checked the other contribs from the IP address that added the Trivia bit. I found his other contribs largely inappropriate, sometimes outright vandalism, usually relating to Sydney musicians. I assume he is a fan of the band, but Wikipedia is not the appropriate venue for promoting one's favorite little-known local band, and his immaturity in his way of going about it only makes it more likely that other editors will delete his contribs. --WacoKid 09:27, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Categories Removed

I have removed David Koresh from the category Vegetarians. It is true that, as a Seventh-day Adventist, he practiced vegetarianism, and in one of his early taped studies, he apparently made a statement that "No meat eater is going to receive the kingdom of God." However, later on he reintroduced meat into the Branch Davidian diet, with dietary restrictions analogous to Jewish kosher. Thus, as someone who took an Adventist offshoot that was practicing vegetarianism and turned them into carnivores, it seems inappropriate to place him in this category.

I have some qualms about the category Houstonians. While he was born there, he really grew up elsewhere. But while I wouldn't have added it in the first place, I can't see sufficient grounds for deleting it in the category's vague definition of Houstonians as being people "from Houston."

I've also deleted the Rapists category. First, the earlier deleted category Statutory rapists would be more appropriate to the charges against Koresh. Since there's not even a consensus about that yet, the even more provocative label of "rapist" must go. I plan to comment on the statutory rape issue, but right now I'm too tired. Good idea. I've done a lot of research on Koresh, and I really haven't found anyproof of him as a rapist. People could have made that up... or started it. I have my own theroies, but lets not go into that.....

I've also deleted the link to the TIME article. It is not a high-quality link, as much of the "information" in that article has turned out to be wrong. At the time that it was written, remember, the media could only hear from the government and defectors, the government wasn't allowing the media to talk to the Branch Davidians. By the time the media could get the other side of the story, they considered the "story" over. --WacoKid 06:23, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Content?

There is very little in this article concerning his activities within the branch davidian cult. This article skips from his joining straight into the ATF attack. ANyone else think this looks odd? Where's a description of his rise to primacy? Turly-burly 04:53, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd also noticed the glaring twelve-year gap in David's life. It's 1981 and he's just joined the BDs, then abruptly it's 1993 and he's surrounded by the feds. Huh?
While looking through the history, I found that there used to be a section entitled "Ascent to leadership." Then, last November 30, a vandal made a couple of edits that turned it into a section he retitled "I Like Child Pornography." The next editor, rather than reverting to the last good page, simply wiped out the section, and it's never been restored! The same vandal also changed the date of the raid to "my birth day, February 13, 1992." The next editor simply deleted the phrase "my birth day!" Then another editor noticed that the year was wrong, but not the day! The wrong date stayed in the article for over six weeks!
(Even before the vandalism, the section contained several errors and POV issues, which is why I haven't simply resurrected it. Gonna have to get around to rewriting it one of these days.) --WacoKid 06:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference links, etc.

I'll explain the changes I made with my last edit.

First, I deleted some additions made to the Return to Earth section.

  • David Koresh said that he would come back when an earthquake has occurred in the town. It is true that he predicted an earthquake that would rock the area, destroy the dam on Lake Waco, and flood the town, but I'm not sure he made any statement connecting it to his return. During the siege, the FBI actually worried that followers on the outside might set explosives on the dam to make it look like his prophecy had come true.
  • "If the Bible is true, then I'm Christ." I deleted this quote as well. For one thing, even if it is to be included in the article, it's in the wrong section. It's also apparent that a lot of people misinterpret it. He did not believe he was a reincarnation of Jesus, but a third messiah, following Melchizedek and Jesus. He also did not call himself Yahweh. During Passover, he sent out letters signed "Yahweh Koresh." However, he believed that this was God's full name, that non-BDs only knew God's first name. Signing those letters that way was intended to signify that they were messages from God, relayed through David, rather than communications from David himself. They did not mean that David thought he was Yahweh.

Second, someone deleted the References section a while ago, whether accidentally or through vandalism. I restored it, but decided to remove the two web links, which I'd been wanting to get rid of. The A&E Biography link no longer works, and searching for Koresh on their Biography.com site takes you to a page that gets his birth year wrong and consists of only a few sentences. I also deleted the PBS Frontline bio link, even though it's apparent that people editing this page have used it as a reference, even to the point of #Copyright violation. It's also apparent that many other sites have been ripping off the Frontline bio.

However, despite PBS Frontline's reputation, their Waco episode wasn't their finest, and neither is its webpage. I hadn't looked at that bio page in ages, but checked it again because of Wikipedia. I found it to be not only biased, but inaccurate on a number of points. I was nearly finished writing up an account of problem statements on that page, when it got eaten by the computer. I'll recreate it later, probably, but right now I'm tired.

Lastly, someone recently added the FindAGrave link to External Links, at the top. I have reservations about whether a site focused on where people are buried is broad enough to deserve a link. For now, however, I've simply moved it to the bottom of the list. --WacoKid 11:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question About "The Siege"

Some years back I became very interested in what happened at Waco and befriended Amy Somers, the co-producer of the academy award nominated documentary "Waco: Rules of Engagement." I sponsored its showing at a local theater because I was very concerned about FBI misconduct, especially the alleged shooting of those who were trying to flee the fire, as indicated by FLIR footage.

You (WacoKid) seem quite knowledgeable about matters associated with Waco. If you have seen the "Waco: Rules of Engagement" documentary, I would be interested in knowing what your current opinion is of the validity of its allegations. I talked to Amy a couple of weeks ago; she still stands by the film. Thanks. Founders4 19:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:WacoKid"

To be honest, it's been several years since I watched Rules of Engagement, and the version I watched then was the McNulty cut, which is twenty minutes longer. (That version is no longer available, the Giffords went to court to block its distribution. The Giffords had pared down director Gazecki's cut to what they felt was a more commercially viable length. But another difference they had with McNultry is that he apparently wanted to push a "harder" line, while the Giffords wanted to keep their reputation as respectable liberals, not conspiracy theorists.)
I checked my watchlist while I was editing, someone just vandalized this section. I'll just put in what I have now, and get back with the rest of my comments. --WacoKid 22:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I took so long to get back to you. To tell the truth, I didn't like WROE. To be fair, since I had already been studying Waco, what may have been revelations to an average viewer were old hat to me. I also had enough knowledge to see some of the manipulative tricks they were using (for instance, the opening sequence where little Melissa Morrison asks "are you going to kill me," cuts out the part where you can hear her mother coaching her). It had all sorts of little errors in their account of Davidian history. And I thought it didn't do enough to present the human side of the Davidians. as opposed to their version of events.
As for the FLIR tape, I'm not a FLIR analyst. My own gut feeling is that I'm not convinced by either side. On the one hand, I've never seen what advantage FBI agents would have had, taking up the positions that the tape shows, as opposed to more covered positions. Also, I think Allard may be stretching when he points to a flash off the back of a tank as someone shooting from it- that seems like something that might be a glint. On the other hand, the idea that the flashes are just glints off debris- "glints" that pulse repeatedly and ryhthmically shortly before the fire, and no other time- seems unconvincing. If they were shards of broken glass, for example, wouldn't they have been there before and after the morning of April 19? The FBI also doesn't have a good explanation of what the 11:59 flash in the gymnasium might have been. Nor do I trust the Danforth/Vector test as unbiased, critiques have been made of it. But I have no special insight into forward-looking infrared beyond the average person's.
No Waco documentary gets my wholehearted endorsement. I think that the best documentaries at humanizing the Davidians are the first ABC Turning Point on Waco, and Surviving Waco, which deals more with the aftermath. Day 51 gets too conspiratorial for me, though it did contend that it was pyrotechnic CS being shot into the construction pit, years before that was conceded by the FBI. Frontline concentrates on presenting internal FBI debates, rather than the Davidian side. And so on. And almost all documentaries have some factual errors. So much misinformation has been pumped into the datastream, even into what Wikipedia considers "reliable" and "verifiable" sources, that it's nearly impossible to write an an account about Waco of any length without at least a few errors creeping in. --WacoKid 06:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV on Siege

I've added an NPOV-check tag on the section about the siege.

Why are we citing Waco: Rules of Engagement as a source here? It's an editorial documentary, it shouldn't be referenced as a source of unbiased information. I wouldn't mind keeping in the part about the Branch Davidians claiming others were shot by the FBI while attempting to flee, since it's primary source material.

An editorial documentary is still based on primary evidence. Wikipedia does not have a policy against using "unbiased" information. It simply tries to represent the story from a neutral point of view using the information as is available. A publicly broadcase documentary seems okay to me, as long as it is not the only source. Ansell 00:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Waco: Rules of Engagement has stood the test of time. It was nominated for an Academy Award as the best documentary film of 1997, and none of its allegations have been disproven or effectively countered by the FBI. In fact, two of its allegations--that incendiary devices were used by the FBI on the day of the fire and that shots were fired into the building during the fire--have either been directly corroborated by the FBI or indirectly corroborated by the FBI's own FLIR footage.Founders4 07:28, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Apropos of anything else, if you are going to use anything as a mark of W:ROE standing the test of time, a subjective award for "best in category" (where best can encompass anything from cinematography to production to anything in between) is not what I would use as such. I'd also counter that the FBI has no duty to even acknowledge, let alone disprove or counter, allegations of a group of filmmakers with an admitted prejudice as to their belief of FBI wrongdoing / overreation / incompetence, etc. Achromatic 12:00, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
We are not here to judge whether an organisation should or should not respond to criticisms. A best in category award means that someone thought the film was more than just junk. Using the (un)reliable sources argument to enforce a POV is not what wikipedia editing is about. Ansell 23:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] jesus wore glasses

did any of his followers notice that he wore glasses? if he was the "great healer" why didnt he cure himself? ****dthomas****

Theoretically, Jesus could also fly instead of walk, but he chose to walk. Go figure.Izaakb 01:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redundancies

  1. The unsubstantiated accusations of child rape are dealt with by reference to the investigation by Waco Sheriff.
  2. Koresh's name is Howell prior to 1986/87, it is appropriate to refer to him as Howell when describing that timeframe.

[edit] Is the date of Death correct?

Upon hearing about about the death of David Koresh I clearly Remember thinking how ironic that he died on the Christian Holiday of Good Friday. Good Friday was, however, Friday, April 9, 1993 instead of Monday, April 19, 1993. Either there was a premature announcement of his death (which happens frequently; see recent announcement for Fidel Castro and Pope John Paul), or the date is wrong (Apr. 9 can EASILY be mistyped Apr. 19) Does anyone have any info that may clarify this for me?

-Paul M. 10/30/06

[edit] Deletion of "Seventh Day Adventist" link

While minor, this link was deleted 11:21, December 6, 2006 60.49.59.102. The Seventh Day Adventist church is relevant to this article and I will be reverting the deletion. Izaakb 15:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../d/a/v/Talk%7EDavid_Koresh_d762.html"