Talk:David H. Hickman High School

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Contents 1 Hickman Review 2 Page Moved/Renamed 3 Vandals 4 Tunnels 5 School Size

[edit] Hickman Review

Could somebody look into adding a section about the Hickman Review? Considering that it has been nationally recognized, the school's literary magazine certainly deserves some mention. Quelqu'un 04:03, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll look into it, though with the politics of the thing, and my personal bias, it might be a good idea for someone else to look over it when I get something up. Cage 06:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page Moved/Renamed

I've changed the title of the page to David H. Hickman High School so consequently there is a redirect from the page Hickman High School. Just to let you know. Grey Wanderer 21:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandals

We got ourselves a problem: some Rock Bridge people have been vandalizing.--ChicosBailBonds 18:19, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Vandals are fools. If they cared enough, they would actually vandalize the HHS campus, and not hide behind the veil of the internet. ~ Cage

[edit] Tunnels

I, as the aforementioned Cage, would like to thank the people who cleaned up the page, clarified the entire "Tunnel" issue, and deleted my name. (I must apoligize for my overenthusiastic friends, as I have not mapped anything, nor do the authorities condone my curiosity.) I will say that numerous members of the janitorial staff (who shall remain anonymous) have indeed confirmed the existance of the Tunnels, and I had been offered admission by one of them with a teacher's sanction. I acquired the sanction, but then the issue was posed of "Security," and I was then banned from my explorations. So I'm a Security Risk. Riiight. Oh well. (An unnamed teacher, however, refused to give me sanction, reasoning that it would make getting into the Tunnels too easy. I asked if he meant to suggest I sneak in, and he confirmed that, yes, I should have to sneak in.) I had been hoping to do a story on the Tunnels (hopefully the cover story) for my independent news magazine, the Subtle Underground, a student-run, student-written, as-unaffiliated-with-the-school-as-you-can-get project. The inagural issue should be distributed around the beginning of the 2006-2007 school year (my friends are lazy, we should be on issue three by now...). Cage

From this summary you have put and the fact that the section has remained in the article for quite some time with no one coming forward to verify that it is true I am removing the section. Please do not replace it without at the very minimum providing an acceptable source per WP:RS that at least the RUMORS exist. I was a resident of Columbia for 23 years and went to Hickman and I never even heard of the rumors. I actually feel bad for leaving the section this long because it feels like something someone put into wikipedia just to see if they could get away with creating an urban myth. Dalf | Talk 09:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

As a Hickman Alum, 20-year resident of Columbia, and local history buff, I can confirm the existence of the tunnels, but agree that the article needs sourcing. I've know I've read in several Hickman student publications about rumors, I'm going to work to track these down. I was the one who originally 'clarified' the article and deleted Cage's name. When I re-crafted it I deliberately added an element of ambiguity about the more far-feched of the tunnel legends, but gave confirmation to the existence of a support system beneath the school. But until I can find a proper source the section can stay out. - Osiris

So long as they are included only as "these are rumored" then I think all we need is a reference to the rumor existing. Without even that I think including this detail exposes Wikipedia to a lot of criticism. Surely the missourian or the tribune have an article mentioning the rumors if they are real. Also to you claim you can confirm the exitance or the existance of the rumors? Dalf | Talk 00:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The tunnels were/are filled with asbestos and the School likes to keep their existence very quite, for obvious reasons. That is why, as far as I know, the Tribune and the Missourian have never mentioned it, also there are many people that would simply not find the existence of tunnels newsworthy or interesting. The urban myth of tunnels is something that has been, as far as I can tell, discussed by students since the 1940's (both my grandparents, and mother are alumni). In my days at Hickman it was fashionable to question teachers about them. As to your question "Also to you claim you can confirm the exitance or the existance of the rumors?" rumors are a challenging thing to prove exist, as they tend to rarely be in written form. I'm wondering if it might be easier for me to just give proof of the existence of the tunnels, and then the existence of rumors would be something that could be taken for granted. opinion? -Osiris

I have also heard this rumor and have seen that they are true. -Bill Brasky

Well I don't know a rumor that has existed since the 1940's should have some documentation some where I would think. I graduated in 1995 and had never heard of even the rumors. Either way I feel very uncomfortable with it in the article with no source. Dalf | Talk 05:36, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Generally there is very little public documentation of tunnels like these, for the reason mentioned above - they aren't generally safe. In fact, many of them require workers to have a special "Confined Spaces" license to enter them. I have personally been in these tunnels under Hickman, and they are hot, cramped, and generally unpleasant. The "rumor" tunnel is one that supposedly runs a half mile or so to another school. -Samuel

I believe we should put the Tunnels section back in the main page, as a student, I believe that people should know about urban legends connected with the school. They're part of tradition, and the history and character of the school. The legends are what make a school what it is, who it is. It is defined by what people think of it, and Wikipedia is defined by comprehensive presentation of information. Or at least I thought it was. But I do feel that an air of mystery will do nothing but give the school a more interesting environment. Gah, I've been rambling. Terribly sorry, but I indeed hope that you got my point. ~ Cage

Totally agree with you Cage, there seems to be many more people in support of including the tunnel section than against it, which would lead me to believe that there are substantial rumors and myths surrounding them. I'll go ahead, pending any objections, and put the tunnel section back in as it was when Osiris cleaned it up originally. We should continue to look for a good documentation of the tunnels, the only published documentation I remember was a article in the Purple and Gold (the school newspaper) several years ago. Grey_Wanderer 01:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Well this is most interesting development....opinions? http://www.uer.ca/forum_showthread.asp?fid=1&threadid=34152 Grey_Wanderer 01:30, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I think WP:RS says that bulitin board discussions are not "reliable sources" that can be used. Honestly, I am not even intrested in a source that says the unnels are there so much as a source that can substantiate the RUMORS of them being there. This talk page also does not constitute a realiable source for that information. It would be a terribly fun Highschool Prank to invent an Urban Legand, and I am intrested in a source we can use that indicates that, that is not what is going on. Dalf | Talk 02:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Grey_Wanderer. I was hesitant to put it back up without more input, so I was stalling. I believe I have that issue of Purple and Gold somewhere, and if not, during the 2004-2005 year P&G had something, if I remember correctly from my bumbling research. Just so you people know, I'm a junior at Hickman now, so I have access to some things you might not (like the campus itself...) I can do more research if anyone wants. ~Cage

After reading this section, I would have to agree with Cage. Not only have I heard the urban legend, but I also checked it out and the legend seemed to be true to an extent. But no doubt, I think this section should be added as an urban legend for it is apart of the school's history. Tubahero 22:54, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

There we go, now I'm actually credited sort of more... I don't know. Currently assembling a team of students to research the tunnels, perhaps we should have a separate page just for the Tunnels, with a summary and a one of those "Main Article: Hickman Tunnels" things... God, my brain gets destroyed after not sleeping for two days. Cage

Awsome, I'd love to here more about the team you assembling, I spent the better part of 2003-2005 finding out every secret Hickman had to offer. It would be great to get some concrete research done, at the very least so we can appease Dalf. We might make a section on Urban Legends in general, so as to not make it too tunnel heavy. Grey Wanderer 22:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

(Caffeine... saves lives...) That would be excellent, an entire section devoted to urban legends... Perhaps we should just put up an entire page on Urban Legends of Columbia, make it part of the Columbia WikiProject. (Not that I know of that many, but regardless...) Cage 22:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

If no initiative is taken to reinstate the section on the Tunnels, and no motion made against it, I'll be putting it back up within the next week. It is a part of the school's character, and deserves to be put into the article, though I still think we need slightly more research, which should be added later. I have received confirmation of the existence of the Tunnels by more than one member of the janitorial staff, and at the very least, the section could be added with a disclaimer stating its nature as an urban legend. Cage 06:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] School Size

2000 students is the largest in Missouri? I doubt this is the case, I came from a different high school in Missouri that also had over 2000 students. Perhaps it is the largest in Columbia, but not in all of Missouri? 12.207.135.128 04:52, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

--Fixed! I checked the enrollment numbers at MSHSAA and got an actual count. Turns out there are many schools that come before HHS: DeSmet 3033 Christian Brothers College 2927 St. Louis University High 2879 Hazelwood Central 2806 Rockhurst 2787 Hickman 2752

Genius00345 00:43, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

--Hey, Americasroof, unless you have another source you can point out to us, don't say that Hickman is the largest high school in Missouri. Check out the numbers above. Genius00345 23:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The school's own website says it is http://www.columbia.k12.mo.us/hhs/welcome.html and the Columbia Tribune says it is. http://www.columbiatribune.com/2005/OurTown/20050626OurTown096.asp You can do what you want with that information. I'm not going to get into a revert war over it. Americasroof 05:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

For what I it's worth I also did some spot check on your numbers. St. Louis University High School web sites says it has an enrollment of 1,065 http://www.sluh.org/about/profile/ The De Smet Jesuit High School shows enrollment of 1,250. I suspect your reports were for the entire school system. Hickman is one big ass school (and even at that it's only grades 10-12 while most schools are 9-12. Americasroof 05:47, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I've probably spent much more time on this than I ever thought possible. I do think you're off on the the Catholic schools (DeSmet is the largest private school) but there's an asterik on Hazelwood Central High School.

The official site for the Missouri Department of Education which lists school size of all public schools is: http://dese.mo.gov/directory/

Columbia site is: http://dese.mo.gov/directory/010093.html It lists Hickman's enrollment as 1,974 (for 10-12)

Hazelwood's site is http://dese.mo.gov/directory/096088.html It lists 2,633 (for 9-12)

Since MSHSAA competition sizes are based on 9-12 the schools would be almost identical in size from a competition standpoint (doing rough math, Hickman's size would be 2,632 -- 1,974 + 1974/3). Hickman is probably bigger in real terms since they add the ninth grade classes that would attend there.

A more detailed breakout on the size issue would definitely raise the article to very notable (rather than just being another high school entry). Most folks would think the biggest Missouri school would be in KC or STL. And there's all sorts of hot buttons that can hit when a school in a moderate size university town gets that big.

Americasroof 13:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

--Wow. You really did some research! I was basing it off the only source I could think of, which was MSHSAA. I wasn't thinking that MSHSAA based the numbers 9-12. That definitely changes things. However, I am mystified as to why the other school's numbers are so far off. You suggested that MSHSAA covers the whole school system, but my school's number is correct for just the high school. Although, do we want to base the numbers for 9-12 or by the size of what the district considers 'high school' (in this case 10-12)? If you go by 9-12, Hickman and Hazelwood are basically tied. But by 'high school,' Hazelwood beats out Hickman no contest. We need to come to a consensus to avoid conflict in the future, and perhaps address this issue on the WikiProject Schools page as well. I'm sorry for seeming a bit snappy when I said "Hey, unless you have..." I guess I'm just a devoted Wikipedian striving for factual information. And out of sheer curiousity, are you a HHS student/alum, or just a devoted Wikipedian like me? Genius00345 22:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I went through the Columbia Public School system, and vouch for considering 'High School' as grades 9-12. Not only is this the classical definition of high school, but it is also the running norm in the US. 9th graders in Columbia have to compete at state music festivals and other competitions under the category of the high school they will be attending in 10th grade. Mixed teams are not allowed, so in effect they are already going to either Rock Bridge or Hickman, but just are not yet in the main building. Also for the future when a third high school will be built, the Jr. Highs will each be a 'feeder' school to one High School, much like Jefferson City's current use of a 9th grade building. Grey Wanderer 23:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that the current figure of enrollment on the Hickman website, is outdated, by several years. The current enrollment is upwards of 2,100 (10-11). I'm still waiting for a published source so we can source this. But those are the numbers I've gotten from the Administration there. I forgot to thank you guys ( Americasroof and Genius00345) for all your hard work. Grey Wanderer 23:47, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments and work. This article is the most notable of any high school article I've seen what with the Kewpie, alumni list and school size. In the for what it's worth I kept the total number mentioned on the wiki article before I started editing as it "sounds right" rather than doing my rough math based on the state education site (as 9th grade is almost impossible to verify via web). Also in the for what it's worth department, if you have any contacts with MSHSAA, I would love to see a list of state champions (with runners up) at least on the major sports from the beginning. It seems it's a state secret (I've contacted them via email to no avail). The whole reason I wondered in here was because I kept doing variations of google "Missouri State High School Champions" (hence seeing the Tribune reference to biggest school -- I didn't realize when I posted there had already been a debate). And of course the starting point was the whole Spoofhound thing. Also, it would be interesting in telling the story of Hickman to find out when it changed from a four-year to three-year school. Presumably at some point 9-12 was at the school. Amazing how wiki connects dots!!! Americasroof 01:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)