Talk:David G. Ludwig

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[edit] Picture please

I don't know the copyright issues involved, but this article would surely be improved by a picture of the subject.

Also, can it really be that a collection of 50+ guns is considered normal? Good grief. Rast 13:34, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

If you read the article in Lancaster Online, this is exactly so. A picture would be helpful. --FourthAve 00:17, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
In any case, for 99 percent of the planet, it is not considered "normal", and other opinions need to be included. --Viriditas 10:20, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
The point is that in Lancaster, where events like this are unimaginable, a collection like this isn't extraordinary. Even the (former) Lancaster City mayor has a massive collection of Civil War cannons. For Lancaster, 54 guns is impressive, but not out of the ordinary. --TangentIdea 19:10, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't know the full story (I doubt anyone does at this point) but you must admit that there is a big difference between having a collection of Civil War antiques that would be difficult to setup and use in the heat of the moment, and having 50+ modern weapons in your house, especially in a house where minors are present. Do you know if these weapons were behind lock and key? --Viriditas 09:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I've uploaded a file I found on his online photo album. He claimed that he self-made the photo, and uploaded it with intent to share with others (or so one would assume) so I'd say it is fair use, but I'm not an expert at this thing (if you guys are, please tag it appropriately). In addition to the gun question, being a hunter, it isn't that unusual for a household to have many guns. Only a few I know have over 50, but it's not a big deal in terms of severity. Many hunters have large collections, and seeing that he was a hunter (and quite possibly his parents), I don't see anything abnormal about the statement. --Mrmiscellanious 03:20, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
The current statement, Local opinion regards a collection of this size to be normal, is true the way it stands. The point is not general opinion, just local opinion. --TangentIdea 05:14, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
"Truth" has nothing to do with it. It's either attributed, or it gets removed. --Viriditas 07:03, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I'll just remove that passage -- no comment on the collection either way. --TangentIdea 15:25, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Is it possible to get a more normal looking picture of Ludwig? Thanks. Rast 23:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The problem is one of copyright. Almost all pictures of Ludwig would be protected by copyright. --Yamla 23:54, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] He is not a suspect since the home video has been shown.

Why he is called a suspect in the article? We saw the domestic terrorism home video and he voluntarily admitted in it. That is it. 195.70.48.245 08:59, 22 November 2005

No, that video was filmed far before this incident. While significant, it is not directly related, and is only circumstantial evidence. He did NOT admit to the crime yet. He is still legally considered a suspect. --TangentIdea 16:50, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Update: He has confessed to the murders of the Bordens while in custody. Putting it back now. The video is still unrelated. --TangentIdea 02:56, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
You waited eight hours to self-revert? Why did you revert my changes? --Viriditas 07:02, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Newspaper article that evening. Check the link I added to the info. --TangentIdea 15:20, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Well, until he actually admits his guilt in front of open court, he is still considered a suspect. Its just a legal technicality. Until the court process is over, he is a suspect, and should be called such. Putting it back in.--Azathar 09:08, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
He has confessed, but not plead guilty yet. So legally, he is still a "suspect" like you said, but he has confessed. --TangentIdea 03:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Names.

Bias as bias, but I don't think we should call a murderer by his first name. What do you think? --VKokielov 21:36, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

He is still a youth. We had an edit conflict, but I saved my changes, which are reflected in the current version. The media is calling her Kara and not Kara Beth. Change them back if you wish. --FourthAve 21:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

We can call her whatever we need to...but to call him David? --VKokielov 01:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
He IS 18 now. "Ludwig" or "Mr. Ludwig" sounds appropriate. --TangentIdea 02:59, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Media coverage

Soon enough, a separate section for this will be in order. I have no doubts that the broadcast networks already have hour-long programs on the subject in the works (Prime Time and the such), as well as the cable networks (American Justice, New Detectives) and the such, as well as Court TV. And most certainly there will be at least one made-for-TV movie, and probably more than that. There will be books too, a Truman Capote like In Cold Blood, or even something along the line of Theodore Dreiser's An American Tragedy, or for an opera by John Coolidge Adams or a grand guignol Broadway musical by Stephen Sondheim. Even a Michael Moore left wing satire, a la Bowling for Columbine. Or another kind of satire, Oliver Stone's Natural Born Killers. --FourthAve 07:01, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Goth martyrs

A certain strain in American culture regards David a hero. I don't see any black lipstick on Kara, but yes, the idea that certain teens would build shrines to them makes US of A sense. --FourthAve 07:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disposition

A plea bargain is likely. Considering the confessions, the witnesses, and the large quantity of forensic evidence, the only hope of Ludwig's public defender is a negotiated plea. The death penalty would seem unlikely (does Lancaster County, Pennsylvania want to spend $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 to kill this man? Do they want to put the younger Borden children on the stand, and subject them to ruthless cross-examination?). David Ludwig will spend the rest of his productive life in prison.

  • As much as I agree with the paragraph, its very much suposition (See WWIN, personal opinion and not NPOV, and not appropriate to the article. As Such, I am removing it.--Azathar 09:16, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] myspace mirror needed

Ludwig's myspace page has been removed, either by myspace or by a friend of his who had the password. (already someone new has cybersquatted the url). I've removed the link to it. I'm sure his site was mirrored during the weeks after the crime, so anyone who knows of a mirror should add it.

http://www.myspace.com/haydren David Ludwig's MySpace <-- no good

Rast 03:11, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Please do not link to lampkeeper.com for a mirror for Ludwig's site. Lampkeeper4.252.75.6 04:52, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

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