Talk:Das Boot

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

Kudos to all the authors of this excellent article. :) Nevilley 22:01 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)

Isn't it good? I have the DVD and have yet to listen to the commentary; I just watch the movie again each time. --Koyaanis Qatsi
yep, fabulous, a good example of what this w. can be like in its good moments. I envy you your DVD. I loved the TV when it came out, I used to go round the house being Jurgen Prochnow and going Verdammt, verdammt! through the Straits of Gibraltar ... Nevilley 22:19 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)
LOL. You and me both, 'cept I'm from Chicago so I got to play Prochnow on the U-505 :) Palm_Dogg 03:19, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Great article, well done! And one of the greatest films ever, IMHO. (Of course, I would say that... ;-) — Johantheghost 12:07, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Production Cost

The original 1981 version cost DM25 million ($40 million in 1997 dollars)

Is the money figure really correct? IMHO 30 Millions of German Marks are 15 mio Euros which would make it about 12 mio US$ (today). I don't remember that the US$ was below 1 DM in 1997?! --Urbanus

The $12 million is indeed correct, however this is $12 million in 1980 dollars. Inflation ran extremely high in the 80s, taking inflation into account this comes to $40 million in 1997 dollars --kudz75 02:54, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
The official site states 30 million GM's ([1]) Quoting: "At a cost of about 30 million Deutsche Marks (about $40 million US in today's dollars)" --Julien 22:31, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Telvision mini-series

in the Text it says:

It was also produced as a six-hour television mini-series aired in Germany in 1981.

in Versions you read:

A 5 hours television mini-series,

Which length of the tv-series is correct? --Donnyw 14:43, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Neither of these is correct, to my knowledge. I have the uncut DVD version, and the runtime is just over around 4 hrs 30 minutes.

281:11 minutes according to splashmovies.de--Hhielscher 20:59, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

The original miniseries had six episodes, each with a duration of 1 hr, which makes 6 hours. I have them taped (from German TV in 1985), so no mistake about that. Christian Rödel

So the uncut version is actually 1.5 hours less than the original one? I figured it could be 6x45 minutes + 15 minutes of commercials each...Dabljuh 21:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

no commercials in german tv back then. i still remember them. commercials werent run in movies untill commercial tv and arent untill know on state tv. ard broadcasted them then.--85.180.50.69 03:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Leaving the sailors to die'

For some reason, the destroyer captains were unscrupulous enough to leave their landsmen dying. The Captain orders to fall back, leaving the sailors to die.

The reason for the destroyer captains 'leaving the sailors to die' was that ships that stopped to pick-up survivors were often torpedoed by the submarine that had just sunk the ship the survivors were escaping from. The safety of the convoy was deemed more important than the lives of a few sailors, who themselves were aware of this and expected it. Usually a destroyer would be sent back to look for survivors at daybreak when the convoy had moved-on some distance and was relatively safe from what was a known U-Boat contact. Ian Dunster 13:25, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
And on the U-boats' side, I believe this is a reference to the infamous Laconia incident. This was a bizarre incident, in which an atrocity committed by American forces (bombing U-boats carrying allied survivors under the Red Cross flag) was used to convict Dönitz of war crimes.
After the attack, Dönitz (rightly or wrongly) felt himself forced to order his crews to render no assistance to survivors in the water, under any circumstances. For this order, Dönitz was prosecuted for war crimes in what I consider to be a kangaroo court, engineered to depose the legitimate leader of Germany so the Allies could carve it up between them — look, for example at the testimony given in his defence by Chester Nimitz and 120 Admirals of the U.S. Navy! (BTW, I think Dönitz did deserve jail time — for failing to speak or act against the Holocaust, about which he certainly knew.) — Johantheghost 12:07, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Not only that, but additionally it also dependended on the period. Before the threat (air or destroyer type threat) became too large for uboats, they would usually surface and ask the survivors a couple of questions (ship's name, destination, departure, cargo embarked, etc...), and provide directions (sometimes also some suppies) if needed to shore or a major known shipping lane. Some uboats also provided basic medical care to the very wounded. They could not, of course, take on prisoners, since the uboat was already crowded by it's own crew. At that time, cargo ships were also usually alone, and not escorted either. --Julien 09:44, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Isn't "boot" pronounced more like "bought" than "boat", I think it would be IPA "bo:t", wuite unlike the English pronunciation?

I don't think any of these "how to say it" attempts is going to be all that successful - people don't generally understand IPA and any "it's like X" thing will founder on the reef of people's own local or national accents when speaking English (note appropriate maritime metaphor <g>). "Bought" is I feel doomed to failure for this reason and I would leave it how it is. (From my PoV I'd say "try to say 'boat' with a slight 'comedy-Yorkshire' accent" but this is unlikely to help every reader! :) ) Perhaps the most important thing is "don't pronounce it like the footwear or you will sound a real pillock!" :) 138.37.199.199 08:06, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
The "oo" sound in German is more like "boat" or "note" than "bought". --jdoniach

I'd say it's more like the "o" in somehow british spelled "order" 84.157.117.198 22:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tipperarry

The "Tipperarry" song heared in the movie was actually performed by the Red Army Choir. A part of the song is sung in russian. The particular section heared in the movie on two occasions (during the Captain-1st WO argument, and later during their return to La Rochelle after the aborted Gibraltar dash)is the ending chorus sung by the whole choir while the earlier chorus were sung solo until "to the sweatest girl I know" and by the whole choir therafter. I spent quite some time looking for the right version because I was puzzled by the strange non-English accent which made me wonder what did they actually play. In fact I`m still puzzled by the effect the director wanted to make. Was that song intended to be an English-recorded song, as it was popular song amoung their troops since WW1 (which would open a question how and why could such a record be found on a German U-boat in WW2?) or a Irish-recorded song mocking the English (as I consider it`s lyrics are somewhat underlining the differances between the Irish and the British) or perhaps a German-recorded song aimed to encourege the Irish in the British army to desert the British cause (the obviously foreign accent made me think this was the right idea) or even what it actually was: a Soviet-recorded song (the movie starts before the German attack on the USSR so it was possible for such a record to be found on a German U-boat). Anyone interested in this who can give me the answer or just an oppinion?

Veljko Stevanovich

It shouldn't have been a Red Army recording — unless those were current in the UK. The truth is that many German U-boat crews listened to British records (which were far more entertaining than much of the Nazi-inspired German stuff), and wore British battledress uniforms, which were more comfortable than the German issue!
When the British were evacuated from Europe, they left tons of stuff behind, which was appropriated by the Germans. Since the U-boat teams were the first ones into the French channel ports — trains containing everything needed to equip a U-boat base had been loaded and ready to go before the ports were even captured — the U-boat men got a lot of the best spoils, and took what they fancied for themselves. Given the situation of the U-boats at sea, dress codes and such tended to be very lax, and the men were very much indulged in issues of comfort and entertainment. One guy even took to wearing an RAF jacket on base, because it was so much more comfortable than his own uniform. So yes, the "Tipperarry" record is quite accurate. — Johantheghost 11:01, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

You`re right. I agree. Thnx and respect. Oh, and sorry I forgot to sign the message

Veljko Stevanovich

[edit] Portrayal of Nazism

The article mentions that some people feel that Nazism and its attendant evils were under-portrayed in the film. While this is certainly a valid point of view, and needs to be mentioned, I think the opposite case could be given more coverage.

My personal feeling is that the film is actually rather accurate in this regard. While there were ardent Nazi-sympathisers in the Navy (eg. Heinz-Wilhelm Eck, who was hanged for war crimes), it was actually run along professional and non-political lines; in fact, am I right in thinking that it was actually against naval law to be a member of any political party?

Eck's warcrime was to assasinate (I don't think another term could apply here), the survivors of the Peleus. Of note, not only he was hanged, but some other officers on board (Silent Hunters by Saval, Naval Institute Press) He thought the survivors presence would give away the uboat's location (the Peleus was sunk during the night in a heavily air patrolled area). --Julien 10:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The Navy, and especially the U-boat crews based in France, were more divorced than most people from Nazi policy in mainland Germany, and I think there was a lot of Nazi-scepticism in the force. A case in point is Oskar-Heinz Kusch, who was court-martialled for taking down a portrait of Hitler from his boat, saying "We are not in the business here of practicing idolatry." Despite chances to recant, he stuck to his views and was shot for them.

After the assassination attempt on Hitler, things changed, with the central party attempting to exert more control on the U-boats by installing "political officers" on each boat, but my feeling is that these men were not much liked. It was, I think, not uncommon for U-boat men to provocatively use the Naval salute in response to the Nazi one.

Of course, it's a complex situation, with many different characters involved, and there were fiends in the U-boat force as anywhere else. But many ex U-boat officers were recruited into Nato (after extensive examination of their backgrounds), and did sterling service there — eg. Otto Kretschmer, Lehmann-Willenbrock himself, and Erich Topp.

With a bit more research (can someone find out about the legal status of politics in the Kriegsmarine?), maybe we can work the above into a para or two for the article. Johantheghost 11:42, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

uboat crew were elite troops of the regime (along with the SS). They had followed rigourous training, but unlike any other troops, they had to work and live for long weeks in an overcrowded tin can. This led to special unofficial permissions: the crew (including the captain) usually wore the standard uniform only on departure and arrival and when on leave, no one cared if they shaved or not during the mission (the beard was non-reglementary). They also came from various backgrounds and often (even captain's) didn't come from a military family where everyone is in the military from father to son.
This may be a reason why uboat crews were not overzelious Nazis. They had a job to do, and there most prized victory was just carrying out well done (or they probably wouldn't survive).
I think this is well portrayed in the movie, by the captain's ironie (scene with the radio propaganda, scene with logbook and recent 'triumphs') and the 1st lieutnant who is the only ardent Nazi, and doesn't even come from Germany. --Julien 10:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


Andrew Williams' book The Battle Of The Atlantic deals with the issue at some length. To summarise, before some quotes from the book, the Kriegsmarine (navy) was somewhat removed from the apparatus of the state, being a professional navy before and during the National Socialist period.

  • "The image of the Kriegsmarine has always been one of professional sailors remote from the politics of the Reich, yet its ranks mirrored the views of the country at large and in the years after Hitler's rise to power in 1933 he and his creed enjoyed the overwhelming support of most Germans. There were certainly many true believers in the Freikorps Dönitz [U-boat crews]. Membership of political parties was officially forbidden by the navy, but there were many who supported the Nazis and some, like Erich Topp, who once carried a party card." - The Battle Of The Atlantic, pages 23-24, Andrew Williams, 2002, BBC Books
  • "...von Knebel [Dönitz's personal Adjutant] remembers the warm informality of his conversations with Dönitz and the freedom with which he was able to speak of his family's hostility to the Nazis. Dönitz was prepared to turn a blind eye to his Adjutant's views but nevertheless, von Knebel sensed the time was right to move on..." - The Battle Of The Atlantic, page 118, Andrew Williams, 2002, BBC Books
  • (in early 1941) "The British interpreter who spoke to the crew reported that both the U-boat's midshipmen appeared to be 'typical Nazis' but in Kretschmer he observed a distinct war-weariness with 'many of the Nazi methods and most of their leading personalities'." - The Battle Of The Atlantic, page 124, Andrew Williams, 2002, BBC Books
  • "Ecke too was impressed. The commander seemed to exude bonhomie. He recalls: 'If I had to characterize Lemp, I would say that he believed "My country right or wrong." I might not like these Nazis, but we are at war and I can't do anything else.'" - The Battle Of The Atlantic, page 128, Andrew Williams, 2002, BBC Books

I believe these quotes, from a reputable source, itself extensively academically sourced, can help to clear up the section regarding the Nazism of the U-boat crews. Some members of the Freikorps were certainly Nazis, but not to the same extent as in the other armed forces, the Wehrmacht or the Luftwaffe, not to mention the paramilitary wings of the state (for example the SS, Schutzstaffel). The First Lieutenant character refers to the fact that there were Nazis among the U-boat crews, but the overall verdict from Williams' book appears to be that the U-boat crews were not overly Nazi. The character who makes fun of Hitler is not impossible either, as the quotes show. So, to conclude, we can acknowledge this perceived criticism in the article, but I think the current wording goes too far.

--John Lunney 23:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Think the whole issue is a phantom criticism anyway. Its about a U-Boat crew, and a strong anti-war film, not about their political views. How many times are Churchill or Roosevelt mentioned in Western submarine WW2 films?

[edit] Things that could be added

It lacks something about the music in the article. Ericd

What about the fact when they Kapiten and the 1st Lieutenant, and the reporter went onto the boat with all the German Offizers and when they were saluted with the "HEIL HITLER" they did nothing back in return but just looked at eachother. And how they made fun of the one who was rasied by adopted parents because they were Mexican?

[edit] 40 million dollars?

I don't know the exact value of the dollar of 1997, but it was certainly more than 46% of today's value, which is the percentage the number in the text suggests. In 1999, the DM was fixed by 1.95583 € (that was the time the Euro was started; the coins and bills weren't changed until 2001, or was it 2002, though). The Euro has the value of around 1.2 dollars, which is, of course, today. But the value doesn't change in so big steps! --84.154.127.54 15:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

In 1981, the average exchange rate (according to oanda.com) was 1 DEM = 0.44459 USD, so the cost was $11 million in 1981 dollars.

[edit] Criticisms

I removed the section: "At the very end of the movie, the port of Saint-Nazaire is bombed by allied fighter-bombers. Yet, Saint-Nazaine was never bombed before at least March 1942 [1]. Morevover, none of the British fighter-bombers of late 1941 - early 1942 had the range to bomb the city." Since it wasn't germaine. The port that U-96 puts into at the end of the film is on the Med. coast, as the boat has to pass Gibraltar.L Hamm 02:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but you are wrong, the submarine never made it in the Med. --Denniss 14:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm willing to concede the point if you can site the reference. My perception has been that the sub continued through the Gibraltar into the Mediterranean. L Hamm 16:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I have seen the movie as well the TV miniseries several times and they returned to France (Atlantic side). --Denniss 17:30, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I am sure they go back St Nazaire, I have seen the DVD (director cut) 3 times or so. It might not be said in the shorter version, though, even though the ports LOOKS LIKE Saint Nazaire. Narval 08:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I concede the point. However, I wish there was a more concrete way we could know that it was St. Nazaire. I've only seen the director's cut and nothing is said that would confirm that it is St. Nazaire, though. I think the place to look would be a screenplay, where it might be explicitly implied by writer or director. L Hamm 17:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Saint-Nazaire was the only German sub base IN FRANCE with concrete sub pens... Narval 19:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

No need to shout. Alright, that would mean that the submarine either (a) returned to St. Nazaire, the favoured conclusion because of the existence of the concrete sub pens at the opening and ending, (b) another port, not in France that had concrete sub pens, or (c) a French port that, in error, is shown having concrete sub pens . L Hamm 23:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Basically, yes. Your three points stands. Sorry for the shouting, I wanted to preclude answer like "Kiel had concrete sub pens, too" [I don't know whether La Spezia has concrete sub pens or not] Ok, I ll watch the movie again ASAP to be sure. Note that a bombing of La Spezia in Dec 1941 - Jan 1942 would be even more unrealistic, it was completely out of range of anything English, including Malta. Narval 07:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Reading another source indicated that the submarine base used at the beginning of the movie was supposed to be La Rochelle, which would have been further out of range of Allied bombing. But, the footage shown of the bombing at the end of the movie is stock from the Battle of Britain and shows German Henkel bombers. I hadn't thought of La Spezia.L Hamm 11:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, two things : Both La Rochelle and Saint-Nazaire had sub pens. Uh ! My mistake. Sorry for this. Second point : the "detailled plot" of this page is inconsistant, since they start from St-Nazaire and comes back at La Rochelle, which is possible but makes little sense. I ll watch the movie again next weed-end, and will settle all this. The cities are probably both out of range, but I'll check the "bombing history" of La Rochelle

Ok, I checked. The Sub is leaving and coming back to La Rochelle.

Alright, sounds good. L Hamm 21:43, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Can't answer for the movie, but in the book (it's on pg. of the 1976 Bantam edition--English xltn, of course), it says "We must try to put in at the nearest reachable base. Which means La Rochelle, not Saint Nazaire and home." Of course, the movie (theater edition--I haven't seen the director's cut) leaves out a few things in the book, so this too could be changed. Mcswell 02:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../d/a/s/Talk%7EDas_Boot_706d.html"