Talk:Dartmouth College

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Pre-22/Feb/2006: Talk:Dartmouth College/Archive 1 (See archive.)

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[edit] Archive

All discussion prior to 22 February 2006 has been moved to Talk:Dartmouth College/Archive 1. Replaced "good article" and "old peer review" banners here. Please continue/create any new discussion here, and start all new discussions at the bottom of this page. --└Smith120bh/TALK ┐ 01:54, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dartmouth pong article being voted for deletion

The evil designs of the dreaded Wright administration have not even spared Wikipedia: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dartmouth_pong. --AaronS 02:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Phew! Kept. But wait 'til Jimmy W. and his jack-booted thugs try and take out Keggy the Keg. Dylan 00:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Motto (again)

So this is just going to become a revert war (again), so I'm bringing it to the talk page (again). It was already discussed here: Talk:Dartmouth_College/Archive_1#The_Motto, and it was agreed to use the correct Latin translation of "The voice of one crying out in the wilderness". What are everyone else's opinions about what the English translation of the school motto should read as? I've copied a response that was given on the archive page by the most recent reverter below. --└Smith120bh/TALK ┐ 16:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Dartmouth College translates it as "A voice crying in the wilderness," so to ensure consistency, we should keep it as "A voice crying in the wilderness." Similarly, UPenn translates its motto as "Laws without morals are useless," not as it is sometimes corrected, "Laws without morals are in vain." —This unsigned comment was added by 129.170.246.42 (talk • contribs) .
It is true that Dartmouth now appears to be using "A voice crying out in the wilderness" more often than the correct translation. One of the pages that was cited on the previous discussion has changed its translation: [1]. But, it's still incorrect. I'm in favor of using the correct translation. 'clamantis' is genitive, does not agree with 'vox', and should therefore be 'voice of one'. --└Smith120bh/TALK ┐ 16:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I looked at the edit history, and I suspect that an anonymous Dartmouth student or employee who doesn't know any Latin keeps reverting the motto. "A voice crying out in the wilderness" is widespread, but incorrect. "The voice of one crying out in the wilderness" is correct, but not widespread. When I was a classics student at Dartmouth, professors pointed out that the College's translation of the motto was grammatically incorrect. A decision should be made here on whether we should use a correct translation or the accepted, but incorrect translation. My only problem with the traditional translation is that it is grammatically incorrect and may make us look foolish to those who are not members of the Dartmouth community. Maybe this is a good question for the "Vox in the Box" section in the Alumni Magazine -- why is Dartmouth's motto translated incorrectly by the College? Brian G. Crawford 16:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
As a complete outsider to this discussion who just stumbled onto this (albeit one who studied the classical languages in his youth and would still if he had the time), my 2 cents are: It's probably best to stick with the official translation given by the College, for these reasons:
  1. It's the "official" translation, and this should count for something. Moreover, even under the assumption that the motto is incorrectly translated, why change the official English motto? Why not change the Latin to fit the sense of the words in English that the College wants its motto to be? In short, why do we not take as an assumption that the English motto is "A voice crying out in the wilderness", and then translate this into Latin properly, and then we declare in Wikipedia that that is Dartmouth College's correct Latin motto? Since English is the working language of the College, isn't it more important to get the sense of the English motto correct?
  2. Although precise arguments can be made as to whether or not something should be translated depending on the case it was in Latin, let me point out that translation is an inexact science and it's completely legitimate to change the sense of grammar to fit meaning better. For example, videre est credere is most properly translated as "To see is to believe", but since this sounds so archaic it's much better in modern English to translate this to "Seeing is believing". Being straightjacketed by the complex grammatical structures of a language dead these 1500 years may not be a virtue.
  3. The difference between the two translations isn't really that big at all. When one says "a voice cries out", it's sort of implicit in the sense that the voice of a person, or the voice of one, is crying out. If we're thinking of this poetically and not literally, this seems like a reasonable translation. Do you think that when Fitzgerald translated the Odyssey he made sure that he literally translated every optative case in the original Greek, with a view towards preserving the grammar? Or did he push some things around to keep the sense, and yet make the text better in English? We speak with a much different rhythm and pace than the Ancients and when translating we can respect that.--Deville (Talk) 18:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your input. My objection to this is that the Latin phrase is on the College seal, and it can't be changed. I think we should go ahead and use the official English translation used by the College, with some kind of note indicating that it is a free or non-literal translation. I'll go ahead and modify the article to that effect. If anyone disagrees, go ahead and revert my edit. I won't object. Brian G. Crawford 21:47, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that we should use both the Latin and English mottos put forth by the college itself. The motto is that of the college after all. Presumably the college interprets it as "a voice crying out in the wilderness" rather than "the voice of one crying out in the wilderness" because the former has less overtly religious connotations. "A voice" can be more freely interpreted as the voice of the college, where as "the voice of one" (especially in the context of the seal) more easily implies the voice of God. So for a college still trying to shed some of its religious roots, this reinterpretation of the motto should be allowed.--Osprey39 00:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Brian, I think this is a perfect solution to the problem. --Deville (Talk) 01:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I've just come across this article for the first time, and before I'd read a single word of the main text my eye was drawn, as by a magnet, to the Latin motto and its (mis)translation. My immediate thought was "How can they claim to be a serious educational establishment when they can't even translate their own motto?" – and was all set to change it, before (thankfully) thinking to look at the talk page first. Brian's solution is sort of OK, but the fact remains that there is a real difference in meaning between "vox clamantis" and "vox clamans" in the Latin itself, not just in how we render it in idiomatic English; this is not (pace Deville) comparable with rendering "videre est credere" as "seeing is believing" – that is an accurate English translation (which takes account of the different grammatical structures of the languages), not a vague paraphrase which actually distorts the meaning of the original.
As far as the college itself is concerned, which is the definitive motto? I presume it is the Latin (that, after all, is what is shown on its arms), and IMO the English should reflect that. If the college's English "translation" actually says something different, the article may mention the fact, but it shouldn't restrict our right to render it accurately, if it is clear that the Latin is normative.
(BTW, it's worth pointing out that Osprey is mistaken in thinking that "the voice of one" (in the Biblical source) implies "the voice of God": In Matthew, Mark, Luke and John it refers to John the Baptist, while in Isaiah it is a non-specific but, from the context, clearly non-divine voice.) Vilĉjo 01:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree with you, and I think that a correct, literal translation should be the one used, but I don't see how to keep people who don't know Latin from changing it to the incorrect translation. I have two degrees in Greek and Latin, one from Dartmouth, so I'm fully aware of the translation issues and the Biblical origins of the motto. As far as I know, the motto is not translated on any College seal. It's written in Latin on the original College seal as "VOX CLAMANTIS IN DESERTO." Brian G. Crawford 00:15, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


Hi, everybody. My views are still the same as they have ever been: Dartmouth's motto is the Latin phrase. Any English rendering of it is not the motto — just a translation of the motto. I don't think the fact that many college websites use "a voice crying in the wilderness" makes that sloppy translation official. My proposal: accompany the Latin phrase with a good translation; and then use a footnote at the bottom of the infobox to state that "The college tends to use a more informal translation: "a voice crying in the wilderness." Doops | talk 19:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I changed it back to a literal translation, since that seems to be what most of us support. I hope there aren't any more well-meaning attempts to change it again. Just in case,

[edit] Dartmouth students: Read before editing motto!

The official College motto is "vox clamantis in deserto," which is literally translated as "the voice of one crying in the wilderness" by everyone literate in Latin, including the faculty of the Dartmouth Classics Department. If you feel that this is incorrect although you don't know Latin, walk over to Reed Hall (that white building in Dartmouth Row southwest of Dartmouth Hall and Thornton Hall), walk up to the third floor, and find a classics professor. Ask him or her how to translate the college motto, and then join the discussion. Please do not just change the motto. The folks in Parkhust are wrong about the motto. If we could just freely translate as we pleased, maybe "the voice of someone screaming in a wasteland" would be just as appropriate. Brian G. Crawford 02:27, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something in the article or the discussion, but since there seems to be more than a little controversy here, can't the article briefly mention the discrepancy? Like, in the history section where it states the motto, perhaps a parenthetical note that "the official translation is X, which is not strictly grammatically correct"? I don't want to do this myself as I don't want to be accused of starting an edit war anew.207.198.239.111 15:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree, and done. Feel free to edit my wording around, but I agree that both translations should be presented in that part of the text. --└Smith120bh/TALK ┐ 19:22, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm evidently not very literate in English, as I fail to catch the important difference in meaning between "The voice of one crying out in the wilderness" and "A voice crying in the wilderness." The King James translators apparently thought it was "The voice of one crying in the wilderness" which seems to split the difference. Motto translation issues? You want motto translation issues? Take a look at poor Penn. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:11, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Presumably John the Baptist was neither weeping nor wailing in the wilderness—he was preaching. Interestingly, Isaiah (RSV) seems somewhat different:
'A voice cries:
"In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD, ..."'
That voice isn't necessarily itself in the wilderness!
—wwoods 22:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh, you're suggesting that "cry" by itself means "weep," and you need to say "cry out" to make it clear that the meaning is declaiming or shouting? But AHD4 says: 1. To sob or shed tears because of grief, sorrow, or pain; weep. 2. To call loudly; shout. 3. To utter a characteristic sound or call. Used of an animal. 4. To demand or require immediate action or remedy: grievances crying out for redress....
E.g. "battle cry."
Oh, well. Anyway, it doesn't mean "Folks clamoring for dessert." Dpbsmith (talk) 23:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

My main concern is that an incorrect translation of the motto gives the impression that we members of the Dartmouth community are a bunch of dumbasses. Perhaps we need the advice of an expert on the matter. I'm considering contacting the administration and the Classics Department for advice. Brian G. Crawford 02:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Revision: I'm actually fairly content with the way it is now. Brian G. Crawford 23:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The motto is rendered in both Latin and English by the college, so it is equally valid to say that the translation is incorrect in Latin as in English. The version on the official seal may be in Latin, but that translation does not in any way clearly stand above the English translation. If the article is written in English, which of course it is, then when the motto is given in English, it is appropriate to use the English version of the motto. It is certainly an interesting footnote that the two versions of the motto don't translate perfectly conventionally grammatically, but that doesn't change the fact that the English version of the motto is "A voice crying out in the wilderness". In fact it is totally silly to claim otherwise, because it's not true: we can all go to Dartmouth and ask what the motto is, and if the answer comes in English, it will never come as "The voice of one crying out in the wilderness"; and any professor which says so is merely being snippy. Let me draw a parallel to the King James Bible, which contains quite a large number of bad translations: when we quote the KJV in an article, it would be totally outlandish to "fix" any mistranslations; quite the contrary, the appropriate action is to put a a [sic] with a footnote. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nrrinard (talk • contribs) .
I would agree with you *if* both the Latin and English mottos appeared at the same time and both were official. However, this is not the case. The Latin motto came into existence of 1773, after Trustees voted on it (reference this library paper about it). I am not sure exactly when, but the College did not start even giving an English translation until the mid to late-1800s. As far as I know, there has been no Trustee vote on an English translation. Also, the College's English translation has frequently changed and is even inconsistent in several places (three examples, all on the main College webpages: "a voice crying in the wilderness", "a voice crying out in the wilderness", and "the voice of one crying in the wilderness"). I'm a current student, and there are many more examples of this inconsistency in several of the physical buildings around campus, as well. However, the Latin motto is always given as "vox clamantis in deserto". And, Nrrinard, pointing to the King James Bible won't help either, because the phrase "vox clamantis in deserto" appears in more than one place, and the KJB translates it differently in different places. Isaiah 40:3 is probably the most commonly cited source passages, but it reads "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness"). However, Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:3, Luke 3:4, and John 1:23 all use the phrase, and read "The voice of one crying in the wilderness". So if we all "go to Dartmouth and ask what the motto is", you'll get different answers from different administrators (yes, *administrators* - I am not talking about profs, who I agree can get very fickle about these things). --└Smith120bh/TALK ┐ 15:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I accept the majority opinion that the motto should be rendered as a literal translation from the Latin, but I added a note to the paragraph explaining the controversy. I simply noted that the more popular translation, the one to which the Latin linguists object, translates not only the text of the phrase but the synecdochic meaning as well. I hope that is acceptable to everyone, and improves the understanding of the issue.Nrrinard 20:19, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

_____________________________

Anyone who has concluded that Dartmouth, based on its noterieity for "neo conservatist" cynicism and hooliganism in the 1980s and 1990s as with attacks on those protesting against Apartheid, should not lose sight of the fact that Thaddeus Stevens , the great abolitionist and Radical Republican, gradauted from there in 1814. Stevens was one of the House Managers in the impeachment trial of Andrew Johnson. He is, leaving aside the obvious bias of D.W. Griffith, aptly depicted in his epic silent film, Birth of a Nation, declaring on the floor of the new House chamber, "Carthage Must Be Destroyed!" Stevens lived openly with a colored woman in the District of Columbia and despised slavery. He represented a district in Pennsylvania that was a venue of the Civil War. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.206.149.227 (talk • contribs) 22:24, May 31, 2006 (EDT).

[edit] AD Raid

I removed the added paragraph on the AD raid. Fraternities get into legal trouble all the time (see Boston Globe article, which mentions at the end the charges to befall Theta Delt and Zete). I realize that this is in the news right now, but it doesn't seem worthy of full, paragraph-length inclusion on the article for the entire College -- this is unlikely to become a particularly memorable event in its 240-year history. I'd say it might belong at Dartmouth College Greek organizations, and, if Alpha Delta had its own article (like other Dartmouth houses -- see Category:Dartmouth College Greek organizations), it belongs there.

But not here. So I'm removing it. Dylan 02:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UMass Dartmouth Disclaimer Sould Be Added

Please consider the so-called "Little Red Book Hoax" and the fact that many internet media organizations mistook Dartmouth College for UMass Dartmouth, the school where the event actually took place.

Should there be a disclaimer on the Cambridge University page indicating that it should not be confused with Cambridge College? I don't think so. --AaronS 13:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the general notice presently in place, "For other uses of the term, see Dartmouth," is fine, since the dab lists UMass Dartmouth.
If internet media organizations mistook UMass Dartmouth for Dartmouth College, well, that was inexcusably slipshod work on their part and I don't think any amount of Wikipedia disambiguation would help. The names really aren't that similar, especially not if you use the formal name "University of Massachusetts Dartmouth."
There are many cases of similarly-named institutions of higher learning, and frankly, I think some of what is done in the name of disambiguation is done simply to call attention to the variation in fame of the pair of institutions. There's been a bit of a slow-motion revert war as to whether it's important for Boston College and Boston University each to explain that they aren't the other. (Nobody seems to be fussing about all the different St. John's Colleges and St. John's Universities, though).
And when you come right down to it, let's say someone mistakenly thought the student who made up the "little Red Book" story was from Dartmouth College. Or Darton College. Or University of Massachusetts Amherst. How many people really give a flying fig? If anyone thought it was terribly important what college this student attended, well, it's likely that these sloppy reporters would have paid more attention and got it right. I betcha a nickel that the erroneous stories just say "Dartmouth" and not "Dartmouth College." (It would be funny if one of them said "Dartmouth University," though...) Dpbsmith (talk) 15:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
"Dartmouth University." *cringe* --AaronS 15:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree, as long as there is a link to the dab page there is no reason to put more. -- Deville (Talk) 15:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dr. Suess

You never mentioned in the article that Theodore Geisel, otherwise known as Dr. Suess, went to this college. As of the year 2004, there were school sports teams named after a myriad of Dr. Suess charecters.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.195.133.53 (talk • contribs) 11:11, June 16, 2006.

It's mentioned at Dartmouth College#Alumni. Dylan 23:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requesting input on name change at Dartmouth Jack O'Lantern

I've proposed a move from Dartmouth Jack O'Lantern to Dartmouth Jack-O-Lantern, because the Jacko's official website doesn't use the apostrophe anywhere on its pages, and seems to prefer instead the hyphenated form.

The reason why I bring this up here is because I proposed this move several days ago, and still no one has weighed in. I'm guessing that the Jacko's Wikipedia article isn't well-traveled enough to bring in a lot of commentators on this issue. If you could read the proposal at Talk:Dartmouth Jack O'Lantern and then make a recommendation, it would help clear up the proposal and not leave it at a standstill for time unknown. Thanks! Dylan 01:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alumni listed on this page

Dartmouth has plenty of notable alumni, but we only have a few listed on this page, which I think is a good setup: it gives the reader a taste of some of the most notable ones, and then lets you go to List of Dartmouth College people for the full list. However, there's nothing in place (i.e. no consensus) that determined who the few are presented on this page, and the result is that people are constantly adding or removing people that they don't feel fit the bill. What I'd like to do is establish here a consensus on which graduates should be included here as the most notable or most representative, so that we have something concrete and stationary in place.

Here's the current list:

I might also suggest:

Anyone with me? If so, let's start up a vote / survey. Dylan 20:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

No one responded, so I just cut the list down to hose that were in my opinion the most important. Dylan 01:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Robert Frost dropped out. He's not an alumnus. --24.128.186.180 02:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
You're correct that he's not a graduate, but the Latin alumnus refers to any former student, not strictly graduates. Dylan 02:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. LuciferMorgan 03:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

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