Talk:Dance Dance Revolution

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[edit] Name of the game?

Could someone explain the name of the game to me? If we accept that there is something revolutionary about it, the name "Dance Revolution" might make sense, but why "Dance Dance Revolution?" [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 17:32, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In Japanese, doubling of words is used in a number of places. Sometimes it is used to signify plurals of nouns ("ware" = I, myself, "wareware" = us, ourselves; "hito" = person, "hitobito" = people, the "h" sound is softened to a "b" sound in the second occurrence, but the word is written the same). Other times it is used for emphasis or simply for phonetic effect ("dokidoki", "wakuwaku"). Word doubling is so common that there is even a special character in written Japanese which only means "repeat the previous kanji", which helps make writing these constructions easier. "Dance Dance" probably originated from this stylistic technique of expression in Japanese. Personally I think it works well; "Revolution" is four syllables, much longer than "Dance", so the doubling helps restore balance to the name.

Also Konami were probably aware that most people would use an acronym, and thought "DDR" sounded better than "DR".

I've always considered it just another quirky Engrish thing. Just like some versions of the game give you text messages such as "That's was cool!" or "Are you enjoy?" --Poiuytman 13:34, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re: recent minor change

Well, which will it be? To say that DDR USA was "panned" by players of previously imported games is correct. The recently made change, "played" by players of imports, is also true, although not terribly relevant. May I suggest "snubbed" by players of the better mixes?

I've changed this back to 'panned' although 'snubbed' would work too. Kappa 18:18, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] DDR simulators?

Currently the article features a screenshot from Stepmania, a DDR simulator made by fans. However, aren't such simulators technically illegal for copyright reasons, for the same reasons as other video game emulators? I realize that such simulators are popular nonetheless, and deserve a section, but shouldn't the screenshot be from a legit version of the game? --LostLeviathan 07:53, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Emulation is not, itself, illegal -- and DDR-compatible games are probably in much better standing than video-game emulators such as MAME. (No, I'm not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. And yes, the discussion below is U.S.-specific.)

For the basic legality of producing and distributing emulators, see Sony v. Connectix, in which Connectix was found not to have infringed on Sony's copyright by creating and selling the PlayStation emulator, Virtual Game Station. VGS lets you play PlayStation games (from the original CD-ROM) on a Macintosh. Note, it doesn't let you play them from files or from "pirate" CD-ROMs written on a computer -- only from the originals, which are recorded differently from ordinary CD-ROMs.

The fact pattern is a little different for MAME-type emulators, since they don't use original media -- they require specially made copies of the game. Emulators such as MAME require that you have a copy of the ROM of the original game. The ROM is the software program which, when run on the appropriate computer system (or emulator) is the game. Distributing these ROMs (to people who don't own the original game) is illegal under copyright law ... and I suspect the makers of MAME understand that people are using it with bootleg ROM files. That risks contributory copyright infringement.

Another thing that's true about MAME, but false about many other emulators is that it can't be used to play newly-written freeware games. MAME is hard-coded with a list of games that it supports, and they're all copyrighted commercial releases. But most emulators are not like this. SNES9x, a Super NES emulator, can play not only copies of original games but also fan-created original games. And there are actually quite a few of these out there. (This is true not only of SNES9x, but of most game-console and home-computer emulators.) What this gives SNES9x is significant noninfringing uses -- which is an affirmative defense against charges of contributory infringement. (See Sony v. Universal, the "Betamax case".)

So where does this leave StepMania? StepMania is not really an emulator in the sense of MAME or SNES9x, though it does something similar. An emulator runs a virtual machine that can run software programs written for a particular computer. StepMania is a game compatible with DDR -- that is, it uses the same input files as DDR and produces similar effects, but not by running the same software. It takes the same input files (MP3s and stepfiles), but these aren't software; they're data -- like importing a Microsoft Word document into OpenOffice. Compatibility is actually quite safe under copyright law. Indeed (not that StepMania does so) it's sometimes legal to copy parts of a work outright in the interest of producing a compatible product; see Lexmark v. Static Control.

And, like SNES9x, StepMania can be used for significant noninfringing uses. You do not have to use copies of DDR's music and stepfiles. There is a vast community of stepfile creators who produce original ones. Some of these, yes, are based on remixes of commercially released music (and so probably infringe on the copyright on that music) -- but many are not; they are original productions. These significant noninfringing uses (as well as the use by people who do own a copy of a DDR game and choose to play the music and stepfiles in StepMania instead of on a PSX) give StepMania a good set of defenses against contributory infringement. --FOo 19:05, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

WRT "emulation", "simulation", and the data formats. DDR's stepfile format is, as far as I know, a sort of trade secret and not used in Stepmania. The actual data _formats_ between DDR machines and Stepmania are actually totally incompatible. The origins of DDR simulation carried with it several different formats, of which DWI (Dance With Intensity) and SM (Stepmania) were popularized in the end. Therefore what was said about taking "the same input files and [producing] similar effects...not by running the same software" is somewhat incorrect. No stepfiles were truly copied from the machines, rather they were transcribed by third-parties. (Music is also normally ripped from the audio outputs of the machine, however, this is just as legally damning as copying from the machine anyway.) So it is even farther removed from copying or cloning DDR software than even you described. Stepmania is more a similar-style game rather than simulation even (due to it's modularity and alternate featureset), and indeed it is true that the debate is centered on how it can be used. (Which, yes, it can be used to emulate DDR gameplay.) I do agree with what you said regarding contributory infringement.

On a related note, In The Groove is derived from Stepmania and actually uses a stepfile format that is nearly 100% compatible (with minor tag changes). The legality of ITG is also as disputed as Stepmania's, however, the adaption of ITG has led to the conclusion of either A) Roxor has acquired the right to produce this and/or B) Konami does not care to take action. ITG's release seems to be one of the more significant arguments in the Stepmania infringement debate, seeing as Roxor is now marketing a Stepmania-derived product for profit. (Roxor employs much of the actual Stepmania development team, so the connection is rather strong.) --Mike Tigas 0519, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've moved the image to the Simulator section and placed an image of the actual arcade game in the Gameplay section. --Poiuytman 13:36, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup, shortening the article.

In my opinion, the article needs major cleanup. Information seems to be scattered everywhere, and there's a lot of redundancy. I'm going to start by moving the details in "Notable songs" to individual articles (which several of the songs already have), and leaving the list as a bunch of links. Any other suggestions? --Poiuytman 13:48, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Agreed with the cleanup. IMO, "Common step patterns" and "Notable songs" could both completely leave. They sound more like game hints than an article suitable for those who do not know the machine. Also, I believe "Score/Grade" could go into the Gameplay section. --Kamek 14:40, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, "Score/Grade" could go under "Gameplay" as a subsection. "Common step patterns" should be summarized in two or three sentences, and merged with Gameplay. Most of the information there would be better suited to GameFAQs. "Notable songs" should be removed, and instead, important songs should be listed in descriptions for Releases. Speaking of which, the Releases table is ugly. I'm thinking about splitting it into "Home Releases" and "Console Releases". --Poiuytman 15:09, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Since Kitch has written substantial articles on the major mixes, I suggest we place the scoring systems for each mix on its respective article. All the score calculation stuff in the main DDR article could then be reduced to a broad description of the letter grades and judgments, with links to the individual mixes for more details. --Poiuytman 11:00, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the Notable songs section and moved its content to the appropriate individual mix pages. I'm planning to expand the Releases section with "Notable versions": links to the main numbered games and other selected mixes with brief notes on what they contributed to the series (a condensed version of what the old Releases table used to have). --Poiuyt Man (talk) 11:37, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

One more thing: do we really need a section for other Bemani, when there's a whole article for that? If you still think we should keep it, it could perfectly fit as a subsection of "See also". --Kamek

No, I don't think the section is necessary. Instead, it should be more prominent in the article intro that DDR is part of the Bemani series. --Poiuytman 15:09, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Putting songs in separate articles is inviting them to get put on Votes for Deletion. Kappa 22:36, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Possibly; I think it depends on the song. I think the MAX 300 article could be expanded quite a bit. If the other Notable songs information isn't enough to create articles, we can just archive it under a subpage. --Poiuytman 23:34, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Rewrote the text about the bar in the second paragraph. I think it's more NPOV. --Poiuytman 01:40, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Consistency in capitalization, italics, quotes

This is a proposal to keep consistency across all the Dance Dance Revolution articles. The following guidelines adhere to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style where possible:

The game series, Dance Dance Revolution, and the individual games (such as Dance Dance Revolution 5thMIX), in italics. This includes acronyms (DDR, DDR 3rdMIX), and informal names (Club Version 1, DDR 3rd Mix), although the latter should be avoided.
- Gamespy uses this format in their game review articles.
Song and course name capitalization: matches in-game capitalization. Use the song lists of the individual articles (if available) as reference. Example: "PARANOiA" as opposed to "Paranoia".
Song names: Double-quotes, as per the Manual of Style.
Grades in double-quotes. "AA", "A", "B"...
Step judgments, when initially referenced, should be as they appear on-screen in the game. "MARVELOUS!!!", "MARVELLOUS!!!", "PERFECT!!", "GREAT!", "GOOD", "BOO", "MISS..", "ALMOST", "O.K.", "N.G.". All further references should just have the first letter capitalized. Perfect, Great, Good, Boo, Miss, Almost, O.K., N.G.
- This is to avoid breaking sentence flow with jarring CAPS and extraneous!!! punctuation.
Arrow directions: Currently lowercase — up, down, left, right, up-left, up-right. I am undecided on whether these should be capitalized or left lowercase. It could use a vote if anyone thinks it's significant enough.
Freeze arrows: I suggest Freeze arrow, with arrow left lowercase.

I am by no means an authoritative figure on DDR-based articles, so feel free to argue any of these guidelines.
--Poiuytman 02:27, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
(Modifications) --Poiuyt Man (talk) 11:03, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Common step patterns

...has been archived under Talk:Dance_Dance_Revolution/Common_step_patterns. Some parts may be incorporated into the Gameplay section, but as it is currently written, it's more appropriate for a website such as GameFAQs. --Poiuytman 10:30, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Additionally, these things don't have standardized names and names for each of the patterns specified there vary a -lot- on region -- to the point where terms describing moves from region to region aren't even necessarily mutually intelligible. Putting them here and attempting to assign "official" names to these maneuvers would be a mistake. BenSamples 01:07, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. I was thinking that at some point a guide to techniques and arcade codes could be created on Wikibooks, since they don't belong in an encyclopedia article. --Poiuyt Man (talk) 10:02, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] attn: Kitch, titles of individual Dance Dance Revolution games

I recently went on a renaming spree for the individual Dance Dance Revolution titles, which links can be found for on the main article page under Releases. I also changed all the links and references to the titles within all the articles. Kitch, who has contributed the bulk of these articles, seemed none too happy about me screwing with "his" pages, and reverted them all to their original states. I'm hoping we can discuss this here instead of possibly starting a revert-war.

The former titles of the articles were Dance Dance Revolution 3rd Mix, 4th Mix, 5th Mix, DDRMAX: Dance Dance Revolution 6th Mix etc. I changed them to 3rdMIX, 4thMIX, 5thMIX, etc. My sources for these titles are:

The syntax used in the logos.
The names used in the categories for DDR EXTREME (check first few links on this page.
Konami of Japan's official DDR website, which points to pages for the individual mixes, and the title usage on each respective page.
EDIT: Also the home version DDR website. --Poiuytman 10:07, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There is no naming scheme used in the US games for precedent; even the PS2 versions of MAX and MAX2 omit the mix numbers. It could be argued that "xst Mix" is common usage on the Internet, but that's why I didn't touch the secondary names ("DDR 3rd Mix", "DDR 4th Mix"), and made sure redirect pages were in place for the common usages. I think accuracy should be used for the article titles themselves.

Comments welcome. --Poiuytman 10:02, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hey, this is Kitch. I apologize for the hostility. I had just finished those pages yesterday to find the names changed only a few hours later. You know, it's not really that big of a deal. In fact, it's a double-standard on my part to want correct capitalization of song title names yet revert the game title names. Actually, I never paid attention to the game titles before yesterday.

I'm just going to leave them be. Again, I'm sorry I was upset about everything.

It's alright, I had an immediate negative reaction at first too, and started reverting them, thinking that I was absolutely right, even without doing any research on the subject. I stopped in the middle of it, and said "what am I doing?". I forgot about this. Anyway, I guess it was for the best, since I ended up actually looking the titles up instead of just going on what I remembered.

By the way, very nice work on the individual game pages. They'd probably just be stubs (or nonexistent) without your contributions. --Poiuytman 19:44, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline

I just had an idea...would it be a good or bad idea to have a timeline somewhere on this or a related page? The table would summarize particular trends in the game, like the duration of foot rating names or the duration of the CD carousel or banner lineup. I just whipped up a table for it, but it's obviously not finished. Tell me what you think.

Game	Dance Dance Revolution	2ndMIX	3rdMIX/3rdMIX Plus	4thMIX/4thMIX Plus	5thMIX	DDRMAX	DDRMAX2	EXTREME
Foot rating	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y	N	Y	Y
Named difficulty levels ("Catastrophic" et al)	Y	Y	Y	N	N	N	N	N
Groove Radar	N	N	N	N	N	Y	Y	Y
Method of music selection	CD Carousel	CD Carousel	CD Carousel	Banner lineup	Music wheel	Music wheel	Music wheel	Music wheel
Highest foot rating	8	8	9	9	9	10*	10	10
Routine category names	Basic/Another/Maniac	B/A/M	B/A/M	Basic/Trick/Maniac	B/T/M	Light/Standard/Heavy	L/S/H	L/S/H

Note: although Dance Dance Revolution MAX did not use foot ratings, the song Max 300 was later given the rating of 10 feet in Dance Dance Revolution MAX2, making DDRMAX the first DDR game with a ten-foot song.

Azure Haights 22:09, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if a complex table is the way to do this. I feel we could just reduce the current table in Releases to a list, and important changes could be written next to each game. --Poiuytman 22:39, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

And the table would get convoluted when games were added that use older or completely different interfaces, such as the Solo mixes and North American releases. --Poiuytman 22:41, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Navigation template.

I added a navigational template to all the individual game articles. I'm not so great with CSS, so if you feel you can make it look better, go ahead. --Poiuytman 22:37, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] DDR US 1st Mix/USA/Home, Disney Mixes.

This is mostly directed at Kitch, since he's the main contributer of the individual game pages, but the topic is open for discussion. Since the US 1st Mix and DDR USA arcade games don't have much unique content (they borrow all their songs from 1st-3rd Mix, and the interface is modified from 2nd/3rd's), I suggest they go under the same article, named Dance Dance Revolution (USA) or something similar. The US home version, Dance Dance Revolution, could also go under that article, since it's based off those two arcade versions.

The Disney mixes could also probably be condensed under one article.

I've been using The DDRUK Songlist Project lately to keep track of all the versions. It doesn't have details on every mix yet, but it's still a useful resource. --Poiuytman 09:41, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese DDR article

Here's a link to view a very rough translation of the Japanese Wikipedia DDR article, done using SYSTRAN.

Translated article

--Poiuytman 12:27, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

that's not a translation at all

[edit] List of DDR games

I created List of Dance Dance Revolution games, and replaced the Releases section with a link to it. This decreases the article size by about 5kb. I'm planning on adding much of the details from the old table as sub-bullets on the list. I also still need to link many of the titles on the list.

The release dates were obtained from several sources: the old Release table, the individual DDR articles, the Japanese DDR article, the KLOV, MobyGames, All Game Guide, DDRers' Stompin' Ground (with help from SysTran), and the DDRUK Songlist Project. In case of conflicting dates from different sources, I used the release date that was listed on more sites, or reduced the date accuracy (e.g. March 2001 instead of March 21, 2001).

--Poiuytman 12:30, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The DDR phenomenon

I am planning to write a separate article over this topic. The influence of DDR is so wide-spread over any video game that I think it now warrants its own article. What do you think? (I am still thihking of what to be included and I need opinions. Leave a message on my talk page) SYSS Mouse 20:34, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if a separate article is necessary -- it depends on how long it is. I'm going to be condensing the Gameplay section and moving Notable songs to the individual mix articles, so there will be a lot more room on the main page. Moving releases to a separate page has already shortened it greatly. I think you should start by editing and replacing the current DDR phenomenon section, and work on it gradually (instead of writing it all offline and replacing the whole thing at once). If it gets too big during this process, we can move it to a separate article.

As for topics that could be covered:

Initial reactions and the crowd-attraction effect.
DDR as exercise, expanding on what's currently in the section
- Use in physical education programs [1]
- Positive health aspects (cardiovascular endurance, leg strength, improvement of balance, coordination, and reaction time)
- Negative health aspects (over-exertion, joint pain, muscle spasms from not warming up, tripping and twisting ankle/breaking leg/etc., lacerations from screws when playing barefoot, detachment of soles from muscles due to extended barefoot play)
The gradual loss of interest in Freestyle, and shift to Perfect Attack popularity.
- Aaron In Japan's contribution to this movement; elevation of Yasu and Take to "DDR God" status.
The loss of interest in Japan as Beatmania IIDX and Pop'N Music became more popular.
Sightings in pop culture, such as TV programs and movies (Lost in Translation, King of the Hill, Will & Grace.]

--Poiuytman 10:12, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm surprised there's no section on the competitive DDR scene, especially the freestyle teams. You could also talk about the local cultures that were created - I remember playing in an arcade in northern California, and my friend performed a knee drop on Butterfly. One of the local players watching us asked us after the song whether we were from southern California, because according to him, the Butterfly knee drop was a "southern California move." There was also an article in the San Francisco Examiner that mentions the different styles among players in Sunnyvale, Milpitas, and San Francisco (that way it's not just original research).

Another important topic is the impact DDR had on the market. DDR popularized rhythm games (more so than the earlier Parappa, Bust A Move, or Beatmania did), opening the market for an influx of such games or games with similar concepts; recent examples include Britney's Dance Beat and Donkey Konga.

Fadeblue 00:17, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

DDR's impact can probably be included somewhere in the section. However, I'm not sure about specific DDR "scenes". There isn't much concrete information to write about. The "DDR phenomemon" section as it is needs severe cleanup, and needs a better perspective (it has too many weasel terms, doesn't really have a specific topic, and is US-centric). --Poiuyt Man (talk) 13:03, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation notice.

I reverted the disambiguation notice at the page to include the links again. I don't think it's necessary to make the user navigate to the bottom of the page, when there are only two games with that title, and they can easily be listed at the top (which is the point of disambiguation, to provide quick links to the desired article). Besides, the list at the bottom (the template, I'm assuming?) doesn't even say which games are titled Dance Dance Revolution, so navigating down there doesn't really help. --Poiuytman 14:54, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Request for sample sound files

Can this be done without violating copyright? Can authorization be obtained for at least some songs? DDR is great, but it's clearly a fad, and this stuff may not be available forever -- this is a good medium for preservation. EggplantWizard 20:06, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Doubtful on the authorization, but fair use should cover short clips at low bitrate. Maybe we could use the clips on the Ultramix 2 site. --SPUI (talk) 17:05, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I doubt it will be very useful though SYSS Mouse 02:05, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] DDR Freak re-listed on VfD

Since the DDR Freak article hasn't gained any real content since the last time it was on VfD, I re-listed it. Please go to Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/DDR Freak and vote. --Poiuytman 10:32, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] If "encyclopaedic content" is your aim...

Then perhaps you should consider removing the comments about the DDR Freak forums. Whatever happened to you at DDR Freak is your opinion of matters, and DDR Freak is not inherently flame-heavy. If anything, when compared against BemaniStyle, arch0wl, ITGFreak, and AIJ, DDR Freak is tame.

Whatever your opinions of DDR Freak may be, they are *irrelevant* and do not belong in a wiki.

They are not exclusively my opinions, but rather how the majority of other DDR website communites perceive DDR Freak's forums. Nevertheless, the statement is opinionated, and I have removed it. --Poiuytman 03:13, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Machine picture changed.

Was it necessary to replace the 4th Mix Plus picture at the top with the new one? Not to sound biased towards my own photo, but it is brighter and shows the pad clearer. It's unnecessary to have both pictures on the page, since they show similar perspectives of a DDR machine. --Poiuytman 08:02, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I put mine at the top since it shows the whole machine, and shows the original logo. --SPUI (talk) 09:56, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I can see the reasoning behind that. I also like that the machine still has padding on the bars, and the stickers on the pad are still intact. I've edited the picture to make it a bit brighter, and placed it back at the top of the page. 300px looks too big for me, though, at least on a 1024x768 display. --Poiuytman 20:51, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Infoboxes in Dance Dance Revolution

Please go here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Arcade games#Infoboxes in Dance Dance Revolution

[edit] Recent changes

I'm not trying to be overly possessive of my text contributions to this article, but the recent overhaul by User:DjRez has me a bit irritated. Although there are a lot of improvements, many of the changes needlessly complicate sections and add POV. Examples:

"DDR is often considered the most popular of Konami's. Bemani music game series."

- Weasel statement, no source. Beatmania IIDX is currently more popular in Japan.

The game is typically played on a dance pad with four arrow panels, pointing in the cardinal directions: up, down, left, and right. (In addition to the NSEW arrows, versions of Dance Dance Revolution Solo have additional arrows pointing "Up-Right" and "Up-Left", approximately 45 degrees from the panel preceding it.)

- The "typically" was placed there so Versus, Double, 3-Panel, and 6-Panel didn't have to be explained in the article introduction. Listing them in detail can be done in the Gameplay section, and a link to Dance Dance Revolution Solo can explain the diagonals.

In some DDR communities, players may place their coins on this lip to form a "coin line", which signals that a player is waiting for his or her turn to play. changed to "Coin lines", as they are commonly called, clearly shows the order or perspective players, as to eliminate confusion.

- "In some DDR communities" was removed, reducing the accuracy of the statement (it is rare to see coin lines outside the United States). The sentence was also moved in the paragraph, placing it out of context.

Why was it removed, do you know about other countries, have you been to any? The coinline i used in England, Norway, Sweden, France and Italy. I think you should check up on these things before making assumptions. Havok 4 July 2005 07:48 (UTC)

I've been told by Japanese players that coin lines are strictly a Western phenomenon, and they are not used in Japan. I don't have any real references to back that up, so I wouldn't put it in the article. However, it is fairly easy to search various DDR forums for "coin line" and find that there is a minority of online DDR players that don't use it. Some areas use the less-common method of putting one's coins in the machine beforehand, to signal that the player has already paid for his/her turn. Other methods include a sign-up sheet, and not using a formal line system at all (common when just playing with friends).

The coin line is common in the U.S. (and elsewhere, as you say), but it's still a player preference. Therefore, the statement should make it clear that it's not the only way of keeping order, it's not used everywhere, and it's not used consistently with different groups of people. --Poiuyt Man ^talk 4 July 2005 16:40 (UTC)

The opening paragraph of Gameplay details has been bloated with specifics about difficulty, which belong in a separate paragraph or subsection.

Songs and levels was already a mess, but now has "did you know?" trivia about specific songs, which are covered in many of the specific DDR mix articles.

I was tempted to revert the article, but the changes are well-meaning, and simply need to be rearranged and rephrased in many instances. I'm glad we have an another user with a major interest in improving this article. --Poiuyt Man ^talk 05:01, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recent changes-Response

Poiuytman, thanks for taking the time to look through my changes. You're right in saying that I meant well, but I really hadn't made a Wiki edit of this magnitude before, and I was very, very tired, making factual and grammatical mistakes.

With that being said: -IIDX/BM, while reigning as most popular in Japan, doesn't get the same treatment on the other continents. When I made the statement concerning their popularity, I included the entire world, not just Japan. -I'm still very sure that other countries use coin/marker lines.

To be fair, the previous article was missing many facts and was very choppy, making some of the information difficult to process. Other than that, I see how you're correct in saying that I bloated the article. It seems as if I just went up and started spewing all this useless knowledge, instead of correctly organizing it, which would have made the passage a lot more accessible to the reader. If I get some free time later in the weekend, maybe I'll fix it up. I was just intrigued by the DDR article (I never knew there was one, I don't go to this site often), and had some extra time on my hands. We'll see what happens.

[edit] Madona video clip

I am not 100% sure of it but it seems that the game appear behind Madona in her latest video clip. Maybe worst adding to the page?

It was definately in the video for "Hung Up" in the album "Confessions on a Dance Floor".
However, she didn't really play the game, it was more of a prop to dance around.
Mezzaninex 23:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Release dates

Are the current release dates posted correct? I see that the Japanese release date was recently changed so now the article shows that the game came out in the U.S. before it did in Japan, which I find difficult to believe. Are there any sources for these dates? --TheKoG 20:17, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DDR supernova

[2]

I am gathering comments on whether it should be included in the DDR game list. please comment. SYSS Mouse 04:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

previous discussions

I added Dance Dance Revolution: Super Nova to the North American section per the annoucement on DDR Freak. I put a release date of unknown since we don't know, but it's probably going to be 2006 as they're talking about location testing already. Lightdarkness 21:19, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I do not think DDR Supernova should be included in the list at this time. Based on the information that was released, the game is not sanctioned by Konami. As this article (implictly) refers to Konami DDR games, Supernova should not be included in the list at this time unless further detail is available. SYSS Mouse 03:59, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Quotes from the second page of the DDRFreak thread state "Konami's developing it, but Betson's distributing it", and "Betson is Konami's official American Distributor. Konami will be designing this, Betson will distribute it". This is likely true, since Konami of America shut down their North American arcade division some time ago. --Poiuyt Man ^talk 16:22, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

It seems that as of today, January 25, 2006, Konami has officially announced Dance Dance Revolution: SuperNOVA for the arcades [3]. From what the press release says, they are planning to include over 300 songs, link mode which allows players to save their stats and edit steps (a set of user-defined steps for a particular song in the game, a very popular feature within the Japanese versions of the game) to a memory device (probably either a PS2 or Xbox memory card or both seeing that there are current domestic home mixes released for those home consoles) probably using the "Edit Mode" feature inclued in the current home mixes and will be a permanent fixture in future American home mixes, and most importantly, a new graphics engine, which is only possible by a hardware upgrade.

Also, DDR Freak reports of a keynote address given today at Konami Gamers Day in San Francisco by Yoshihiko Ota, Executive Producer of Dance Dance Revolution, stating the worldwide release schedule of the arcade mix: America will get it this spring, followed by Europe, and finally Japan [4]. In other words, the arcade mix will be the same for all releases. Finally, there is also an offical website for Dance Dance Revolution: SuperNOVA which launched today. I strongly believe that this should be suffice in updating this Wiki so that it includes information on SuperNOVA.--TheLegendOfZaku0079 04:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DDR step technique mislabeled

In the section "songs and difficulty levels", the article lists the Sidestream as a type of step skill. It is a step combo such as Left-Down-Right, where the left and right steps are hit with the same foot. I have never heard of it called a 'sidestream' before in my life; I've exclusively heard people refer to this step as a 'crossover' (seeing that your foot should cross over to the opposite side of the pad if performed properly). Can any other DDR players confirm this, or is it possible that the term "crossover" is just a localized term from my reigon (northeast US)?

I agree. I have always used the terms "Crossover" (for a pattern such as RDL, alternating feet) and "Candle" (for a pattern such as ULD, alternating feet, where your foot crosses the center square), and rarely, if ever have I heard the term "Sidestream." I have changed the article to define these two terms in the stead of Sidestream, feel free to clarify my edit even further if you like! --Rahzel 16:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Popular Culture Section is Bloated

The "In Popular Culture" section of this page is getting too long. We don't have room for everyone's favorite DDR television reference, movie quote, or whatever. I think that this section either needs to be deleted entirely (under the reasoning that DDR is becoming more and more popular culture itself) or streamlined to include just a few notable pop culture references. Please reply with your thoughts. Regards, Rahzel 18:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I am still awaiting thoughts on this. In the meantime, I don't think we should add any more items to this section unless they are extremely noteworthy--we don't need every single pop culture reference in this section. --Rahzel 18:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm personally a bit of an inclusionist, but as per WP:NOT I think you make a very good case for trimming it down at the very least. (In other words, If I Were King(TM) we'd keep the list -- but I'm not King, and I don't write the checks for Wikipedia, and by my interpretation of the rules, this would be an indiscriminate list of information and therefore not appropriate for Wikipedia -- so I concur and vote to trim down the list. --Jaysweet 19:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion rather than have "pop culture references", why not rewrite the entire section as prose exploring "influence on popular culutre". We seem to have enough details to warrent such a section. LinaMishima 20:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

That is a fantabulous idea. I'll do it if I have time in the next few days. --Rahzel 06:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I have sort of done this. I have re-written this section to eliminate some of the unnecessary details, and (more importantly) to get rid of the list of "pop culture references" that keeps getting more and more bloated. I think that this prose-paragraphencapsulates the main idea of what that section should be getting across, without the fanboy-isms. Rahzel 21:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, no one has done this. Is it going to happen? Over half the references have been deleted! Who picks and chooses which ones are more valid than others? --204.246.229.153 16:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

"An interesting website is the popular Flash Flash Revolution. Rather than using a dance mat, the player uses the up, down, left and right controls on the keyboard. The game also gives the user the ability to control how they see the arrows, rather than just the traditional arrows at the top of the screen, they can be viewed from all sides of the field, allowing for an endless array of ways to play." This should be deleted as it is an obvious advertisement and cruft.--71.30.248.202 22:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Doubles?

There is no mention of doubles play in the article.

Doubles expands the gameplay from the 4 arrows on one pad to all 8 arrows on both pads. Generally, doubles is reserved for more advanced players or those who are looking for a more challenging experience. Many freestyle players expand from singles to doubles in order to allow for more freedom of movement. Casual players avoid doubles because of the difficult learning curve and higher cost (generally twice) at arcades.

Technique and style should also be discussed.

You know, you are quite right! I can't believe I didn't spot this problem last time I looked in here - and I'm almost exclusively a doubles player! LinaMishima 16:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

--67.68.161.124 23:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)Д67.68.161.124 23:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)samuel

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