Talk:Dalek

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Contents 1 Initial Merchandise Year 2 Stephen Hawking's voice 3 Bob the Angry Flower 4 Additional Trivia 5 Spoilers in the article 6 Torchwood 7 Emotionless? 8 Computer games 9 Photographic cut-outs and wooden models 10 More reference queries, mostly books 11 Fictional misanthropes?

[edit] Initial Merchandise Year

Currently the article states that "The first Dalek toys from Louis Marx & Co. appeared that year [1965]". I've just had some old home movies transferred to digital which show my grandfather receiving a Dalek toy on a reel that is (on screen) annotated to say Christmas 1964, which seems to be supported by the BBC's trademark date. It's possible the markup on the cine is incorrect, but I thought it worth a mention in case the article can be more clearly written, or confirmed. I can provide stills if it's useful.--Ear1grey 15:30, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, and thanks for pointing this out because it allowed me to go back and fix a couple of errors. According to The Handbook by David J. Howe, Stephen James Walker and Mark Stammers, Walter Tuckwell approached several manufacturers and publishers to get them interested in licensing the Daleks. "By Christmas 1964, there were numerous companies gearing up to release toys and games the following year," is the exact quote, which seems to suggest that the toys were not released until 1965. It goes on to say that "by the end of 1965 around eighty-five different products had been released to tie in with Doctor Who and the Daleks." (The Daleks' Master Plan was broadcast during the Christmas 1965 season.) That doesn't explain the markup on your cine film, but that's the information for what it's worth. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 16:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stephen Hawking's voice

I had a look to see if I could find a verifiable source for Stephen Hawking comparing his voice synthesizer to a Dalek's voice, in part because I myself heard Hawking make the comparison at a talk I attended once. (His exact words, if I recall correctly, were that his voice "had been described variously as sounding Swedish, American, or like a Dalek.") Of course, my recollection is hardly verifiable by others, so I looked for another source. Surprisingly, the only source for Hawking himself saying something like that was this on his website, where he praises his voice synthesizer for not sounding like a Dalek. A Sunday Times article from 2004 says "Hawking believes that its metallic tones, reminiscent of a Dalek’s, are part of his identity," but that link is to someone's blog where the article is reprinted, which is probably a copyvio. (The Sunday Times archives are subscription-based; the article is also mentioned here on the University of Cambridge's website with the same headline, so I don't doubt its authenticity.) A journalist at The Register makes the comparison, as does a BBC Four documentary, but it would be better to get a quote from Hawking himself.

Anyway, I think that if anyone has a good verifiable source it might be nice to include the mention in the article somewhere — especially since Mickey returned the favour by saying that the Dalek vs. Cyberman bitch-fest was "Stephen Hawking vs. the speaking clock"! —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bob the Angry Flower

I'm not sure whether it's notable or not, but it turns out that Daleks have appeared several times in Bob the Angry Flower: I think this one dates to a while back, and these three [1][2][3] are more recent. We could mention it in the "popular culture" section... or not. Not a big deal, but I figured I'd ask to see what others think. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I really don't think it's notable. It's not as if BtAF is a cultural phenomenon, is it? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 03:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I suppose not. I had heard of it before it came up here, but had never read it — and I'm probably more comics-aware than the average bear. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additional Trivia

Unfortunately I don't have a cite, but I know of a few interesting bits of trivia. The early series that used daleks was in black and white. To aid directing the dalek actors, each dalek had a large numeral painted on its headpiece in red. Easy to see for the directors, but invisible on the black and white print. They used the same trick to paint marks on the set floor for the daleks to follow. Also, it's not mentioned that the daleks were built on tricycles.

In the early movie, daleks got their power from the metalic floor panels of their city. There is one scene where a dalek is incapacitated by pushing it onto a coat thrown on the ground. Fracture98 02:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spoilers in the article

Shouldn't there be a spoiler warning in some sections of the article, particularly the history in the show section? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.219.24.191 (talk • contribs) 01:41, October 8, 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Torchwood

Any news wether daleks will appear in torchwood yet? If they do should a new headline be put in the article describing what they do and any difference or inequalities to standard daleks (like Lisa in Cyberwoman) that it has? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.133.71.103 (talk • contribs) 12:40, November 15, 2006 (UTC)

There is, so far, no indication that Daleks will appear in Torchwood. If they do, we'll edit the article accordingly. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

What about the dalek ariants and dalek empire pages? we'll they have to be edit them too wont we? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.137.71.75 (talk • contribs) 18:46, November 26, 2006 (UTC)

We can deal with those if and when it becomes an issue. No point in worrying about it now. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Emotionless?

I think to call the Daleks "emotionless save hate" isn't doing the Daleks much justice. Equally the Daleks are capable of pride (in themselves). They frequently get angry, defensive, aggressive and to note a non-neagtive emotion, they also take pleasure in exterminating stuff.

So, if no-one objects, I'd like to change "They are devoid of any emotion save hate; without pity, compassion or remorse." to simply "They are pityless, without compassion or remorse."

The sentence is a fragment, admittedly, but no doubt it will be tidied up shortly after the edit is made. 81.110.241.113 23:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's not a fragment: it's got a subject ("They") and a verb ("are"). The only problem I see is the spelling of "pitiless", but as you suggest that's easily fixed. :) Go ahead and make the change — it looks good to me. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The Doctor said "Every Emotion except hate. Anger and Devensiveness are psychologically linked to hate and pride isn't an emotion. James Random

Not sure what the rule on self-referencing is here but [[4]] includes pride as a complex emotion (as well as anger, seperate of hate). The Doctor's comments regarding the Daleks can be easily explained as his own prejudice. So I would be more inclined to go on our own observations rather than what the Doctors say in this instance.

To mention just a couple of examples: In the series 2 finale the Daleks show pride in themselves (for being superior to the cybermen). Dalek Sec shows anger and surprise when Rose mentions her dealings with the Emperor.

Furthermore in the episode "Dalek", the Dalek there shows loss and unhappiness.

Emotions listed: Pride, anger, surprise, loss and unhappiness.

Other emotions that the Daleks have exibited (I'm sure you can think of examples yourself) in the past include: cruelty, caution, fear and respect. So I ask you, who here still thinks that the Daleks are emotionless, save hate? 82.21.85.203 15:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, Sec isn't the best example, since he's been trained to "think like the enemy". He's probably capable of a much wider range of emotion than your bog-standard Dalek. That said, I think that we can either keep the current description or use "removed every emotion except hate" as a quote, attributed to the Doctor, with a citation. (Is that from Dalek?) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Computer games

At the FAC, it was observed that the "computer games" section may have acquired some commercial content, advertisements and/or spam. The article currently mentions five unauthorized Dalek games, and includes links to four of them. Which of these, if any, are really noteworthy? Should we pare that paragraph down to something like "Several unauthorized games featuring Daleks have been made, including Dalek-based modifications of Quake and Half-Life."? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds all right to me. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 05:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. If anyone feels strongly that these should be retained, they can find the original links in the page's history. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photographic cut-outs and wooden models

Does anyone recall off the top of their head in which episode of The Dalek Invasion of Earth photographic cut-outs were used to swell the numbers of the Dalek ranks, and which episode or episodes of Destiny of the Daleks feature wooden "dummy" Daleks? I'm trying to provide the {{cite episode}} citations for all the footnotes (as requested at the FAR), but that template requires a specific episode. If no-one here knows I can ask at OG, or I could re-watch the DVD myself. ;^) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

For DIOE, that would be "The Daleks" and/or "Day of Reckoning" (2 and 3) - the cut-outs were at the Dalek saucer landing site, seen while the prisoners were being marched into the saucer and possibly later on when the resistance commences their assault. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 09:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Right — thanks! Any idea about the cut-outs in Destiny? Or, failing that, any idea of how to use {{cite episode}} or another template to cite an entire serial? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 10:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Um, no on both counts. I'd have to watch Destiny again, I suppose, to answer that... --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 11:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

...a fate no man should have to endure.

Anyway, they first used the photographic blow-ups in The Daleks — take a look at some of the control room scenes.132.185.240.120 14:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Sod it — I've just spelled the reference for the full serial out. I suppose it's OK to refer to specific episodes when we're talking about a specific line, but there are also references to entire serials that we should be able to cite as such. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More reference queries, mostly books

Some of my Doctor Who books are in storage, so I couldn't provide the citation for the novelisation of Remembrance of the Daleks. I do have a copy of The Also People, but I couldn't find the Dalek verses in it (although the book does have a verse of what looks like Cyberman blues). Finally, does anyone recall which episode of The Chase "Advance and Attack! Attack and Destroy! Destroy and Rejoice!" comes from? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I think I have the Remembrance novelization in the house. Which bit do you need to cite? SMegatron 13:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The first usage of "Ka Faraq Gatri", as mentioned in Dalek#Culture. You can use the {{cite book}} template. Thanks! —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, i think Ive added the correct reference, but I would be obliged if someone would check it over, as Im hopeless when it comes to cites. Regards.SMegatron 19:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks pretty good to me — the only thing you might want to add is the page number, if you can find it. You can add that by typing "| page = 47" or whatever (no quotation marks) at the end, before the double curly brackets. Thanks for finding that info! —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem. The page no. is now up (after a few attempts), so give me a shout if you require anything else of that one. Sorry I can't help with the rest. Regards.SMegatron 13:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch, SMegatron. Sorry I led you up the garden path with "page" instead of "pages". I'm sure we can find someone to help with the other citations — I'll ask at OG. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Not a problem. Happy to help.SMegatron 18:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional misanthropes?

Recently, a CfD merged the category "Fictional characters opposed to humanity" (to which Dalek had belonged) into "Fictional misanthropes". I removed the new category from the article, because I didn't think it really applied very well. An anon re-added it today, so let's talk it out.

Although etymologically, "misanthropy" refers to "hatred of mankind", I tend to think of a "misanthrope" as a character like Scrooge or the public persona of W. C. Fields — or indeed, Alceste, the misanthrope of Molière's eponymous play. A misanthrope, as commonly conceived, will express his loathing for his fellow man, and may even claim that he would be happy to see the human race exterminated, but does not usually act on that sentiment himself. A misanthrope is rarely a murderer, much less a mass-murderer. The hatred that the Daleks feel towards humanity (and, indeed, all non-Dalek life) is of a different kind, most notably because the Daleks are not themselves human. They hate humans as the other against which they define themselves, not as a class to which they themselves belong (DO NOT BLASPHEME! notwithstanding). I just feel that "misanthrope" isn't the most accurate word to describe Dalek psychology. But what do y'all think? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. "Misanthropic" seems a very odd word to apply to the Daleks - an understatement, to say the least. --Brian Olsen 19:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it's an odd description. That category currently includes everything from Cylons, Mysterons and Silurians, through Magneto and his Brotherhood of Evil Mutants all the way to Dogbert ! Something needs to be done about it. -- Beardo 22:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

However, the category page says "Most of the characters are non-human, and belong to one of three groups: other species from Earth, aliens, or artificial intelligence." -- Beardo 22:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)