Talk:Daewoo Nubira

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[edit] Daewoo or Chevrolet?

See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Daewoo Nubira for some discussion as to what this article should be named.

I own a Daewoo Nubira and do know a good deal about it. I understand that GMDaewoo cars are sold under the Chevrolet brand in a large percentage of its world. However, I was stunned to find this car under the name Chevrolet!

The Daewoo Nubira is the J100 and J150 platform, as known internally by Daewoo Motor Company. I cannot find a Chevrolet version of the Daewoo Nubira sold anywhere in the world! The current cars, Lacetti, are of Daewoo's new replacement platform, the J200, and is largely unrelated to the Nubira (J100/150). This is the car many of you are thinking of, and already has a location on Wikipedia, under Chevrolet Lacetti. There are a few J200 Lacettis sold with the Nubira name (very few), under the Chevrolet brand. Let me stress this, they are not Nubiras! To call the Nubira a Chevrolet because its replacement is sold as one does not make sense. It is also highly inaccurate. This is clearly destroying the history of Daewoo Motor Company!

The best example that I can think of at the moment is the Imperial Japanese Navy ships around the time of World War II. Today, the Japanese Navy ships are under Self Defense Force, not IJN. However, that does not change the name of the IJN Yamato to JSDF Yamato because of later government changes. bmcclain

I'm fascinated. I admit that when it was renamed to Chevrolet Nubira from Daewoo Nubira, I just assumed we were going from the international name to the US one. But it's now claimed that this is not a US name at all, so where is it used I wonder? India maybe? Africa? The article doesn't say.

Anyway, my point was that the original name for the vehicle was Daewoo, and no case had been made for moving the article (it was actually a breach of procedure to move it during the VfD vote). And it's now claimed that the vehicle is called a Chevrolet in neither the US nor Korea! It's certainly not called a Chevrolet in Australia, any Chevs sold here are rebadged to something else, Holden or Suzuki I guess.

It's not a big deal. I think the main damage of using the name Chevolet for the article is that it makes Americans look a bit silly to the rest of the world, quite unfairly IMO. Andrewa 17:34, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Chevrolet Nubira is the European name and as long as it's in use by official GM Media site, http://media.chevroleteurope.com (the successor to http://media.daewoo-auto.com/ aka http://media.gm.com/division/daewoo ), that's more than enough for me. Daewoo brand is simply non-existant outside Korea as of now.

Suzuki Forenza is the badge engineered version sold in the US. I'm not aware of all the local names in existance because there isn't an easy way to gather this information. It's named Chevrolet Lacetti sedan in one half of Europe, Chevrolet Nubira in the other half, Chevrolet Optra in Arabia, India and Canada, Buick Excelle in China, and I'm not sure about Latin America, Asia, South Africa and Australia/Oceania. If you think it's a mess, blame the General Motors management who thinks Daewoo should be Chevrolet Europe. I'm just trying to make a point that local versions differ by grille style at most and it's still the same car produced in exactly one place along with CKD kits, as opposed to say Ford Focus. DmitryKo 19:59, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Normally, we sign our posts on talk pages, User:DmitryKo.

I see you have now. Thank you.

No, I don't think it's a particular mess, I just think that the current article title is misleading. It describes cars by a name that they quite simply never had. In a sense, the Chevrolet Nubira is a rebadged Daewoo, but there is no sense that the many Daewoo Nubiras still on the road (and sold new in their country of origin) are Chevrolets. They remain Daewoos in every sense. Not all GM cars are Chevs.

GM would now like us to think of all Nubiras as Chevs, but we should not necessarily follow GM's direction as to the way they engineer their brands. We should describe their models accurately. The article title you have chosen conforms to GM's strategy well, but not to the facts. Andrewa 12:51, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Look, there are many historical references to Bombay but the city is officially called Mumbai now, even though it remains the same old Bombay.

We're describing cars in the first place, not their names. The fact is that this car is currently known as Chevrolet everywhere and it hasn't changed enough since it was Daewoo to justify its own article. Let's not create another artifical convention like General Motors Corsa just for the sake of political correctness. DmitryKo 17:03, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Cars are a bit different to geographical features such as cities. Point taken, but I don't think it's applicable. For a closer parallel, maybe consider Austin-Healey Sprite. This wasn't renamed MG Midget just because BMC once decided that all future sprites would be badged as midgets.

And you've contradicted yourself about what the car is known as now. You said before it was still a Daewoo in Korea. It's certainly still a Daewoo in Australia.

Political correctness doesn't enter into it. I'm talking accuracy.

I'm accepting your decision that the Chev Nubira doesn't deserve its own article. So the question then is, what should this one article be called?

All Chev Nubiras are Daewoo Nubiras, they (or at least the kits) are made in the Daewoo plant. Not all Daewoo Nubiras are Chevs. So, if we're to have one article, it should be under a name that covers all the cars in question.

Would it perhaps be better to just call the article Nubira, or Nubira (GM car) or somesuch if the manufacturer must be listed? Andrewa 03:20, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As of now, Daewoo is effectively a local Korean brand for some Chevrolets built in S.Korea, sold through General Motors dealerships around the world by various names and brands. Chevrolet Europe (formerly Daewoo Europe) remains the only sales network of GMDAT outside the South Korea since Daewoo Motors USA went bankrupt in 2002. So I honestly don't think Daewoo Nubira is the name that covers all of these versions anymore, and anyone looking for Daewoo branded cars on the GM.com is not going to find it, anywhere. Holden is not going to use Daewoo brand for the imports from GMDAT (see the PR from media.gm.com/division/holden). Introducing artifical entities for the sake of correctness is not the right way to solve the names conflict either, because the convention is to use Brand/Make Name order.

Considering your example, MG Midget should simply be merged with Austin-Healey Sprite as a subsection to Mark II, as it's conventionally done with many cars like Opel Corsa and Opel Kadett/Opel Astra (altough I don't like the artifical General Motors in the name, which should be changed to Opel). DmitryKo 18:33, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I realise I'm coming to this a little late but since I'm the one who mentioned on the VfD about renaming I thought I'd better comment. Personally I would not support a renaming to something like Nubira (GM car) b/c it might not even be known as the Nubira in a lot of places. My logic on the Chevrolet Nubira was simply that it is now known as a Chevrolet across most market places now and that at the time all the other Daewoo articles had been renamed calling it a Daewoo was inconsistant...

Looking at the Opel Corsa situation, imo it looks a bit silly to call it General Motors Corsa b/c it isn't known by that name anywhere, however since it's known by a lot of different names in a various different markets I don't really there is a clear naming option (unlike here with the prevalence of the Chevrolet badge now) so GM Corsa will have to do. -- Lochaber 16:02, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Since GM Daewoo took over responsibility for the GM Gamma platform, I think the choice is clear now: General Motors Corsa should be moved to... Daewoo Corsa!!! Ha ha ha. --DmitryKo 20:12, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm surprised any of this has come up. On the [1] page, there appeared to be a consensus that the country of origin's convention be adopted to avoid any of these issues. Point on the Opel Corsa, Kadett and Astra above taken: I agree General Motors Corsa is daft, and there were no objections for that to be shifted to the Opel brand: Russelheim developed the car, and it is the country of origin. In fact, I support any such edits. However, if this convention is to be adopted as was once discussed, and is brought up again above, then it should be noted that in Korea, the Nubira ceased to be after the first generation. Hence here at Wikipedia, the Nissan Sunny entry, for instance, follows the Japanese market. I vote to have this page moved to Daewoo and the facts aligned to that of the Korean market. All second-generation references should be placed with Daewoo Lacetti. Stombs 12:22, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

If you think this page should be moved, first list it at WP:RM to start a proper voting procedure and then provide a correct voting template on this talk page, as suggested by Wikipedia:Requested moves#Instructions. --DmitryKo 14:40, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Note: This naming convention/move discussion has been centralized at the Automobile WikiProject. Dragons flight 02:30, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

The car is called the Daewoo Lacetti in South Korea (go to www.dm.co.kr, click "Korean," click "Showroom." I think the article should be named "Daewoo Lacetti" because South Korea is the origin of this global car. All other names could be redirected.

Do you mind to come with a clear and simple redirection scheme? This is where these 'conventions' fail to provide any improvement... in fact, they just confuse things for the benefit of noone. --DmitryKo 00:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move descision

Moved to the Daewoo version as requested and double redirects fixed. Ryan Norton ^{T | @ | C} 07:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Votes for deletion

This article was proposed for deletion; the result was to keep. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Daewoo Nubira for a record. Postdlf 01:45, 2 May 2005 (UTC)