Talk:Cyrus cylinder
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[edit] Copyright Violation
After googling for more info I found that a good portion of this article is plagiarized from here and/or here. How do I report this? I'm too lazy (and busy with other articles) to rewrite this right now. Stuff like 'continents' needs to be changed as well. Khirad 09:33, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Dear Wiki administrators;
The above information is false. I added the article from The Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies. The article was written by founder of the organization himself. According to their copyright policy:
Unlimited distribution is permitted without permission (unless otherwise noted) subject to:
The files will be used for Non-Commercial (no fee is charged to the users), your personal and educational use only.
The entire contents (Textual & Graphic) including the header, the author name, are not permitted to be altered.
The source (including web link address: http://www.cais-soas.com) should be acknowledged.
The copyright notice (Copyright © 1998~ CAIS) should remain intact.
I even sent the author an email and aknowledged him about adding his article to Wikipedia.
Though the article was not taken from http://www.iranchamber.com ,but I contacted them (I thought maybe someone from that society is doing the deletions); and here is their reply:
Dear Mehrdad,
We never add, remove or edit anything to, from or on Wikipedia.
We were also noticed by some editors of Wikipedia that some people are adding materials from our site, and asked our permission to keep them on Wikipedia. In all of the occasions we did not express any objection. But later we did notice that some pictures and articles are removed again. We believe these removals and unnecessary editing's more or less caused by an unmanaged group of editors who are crossing each others works.
We support the cause of Wikipedia as a free source of information, and our copyright notice is only subjected to the commercial use of our materials which we do not grant any permission for such purposes at all. Above all we support what ever can more introduce our beloved Iran to the world.
Best regards,
Shahrzad Rouzrokh Editor of Iran Chamber Society http://www.iranchamber.com
Regards, --Mehrdad 06:42, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, the policy: "The entire contents (Textual & Graphic) including the header, the author name, are not permitted to be altered." conflicts with Wikipedia policy. All Wikipedia articles must be able to be edited. Wikipedia can't be used simply as a mirror for other people's essays. If you wanted to write your own article, and then provide a link to this person's essay, then that would be fine.--JW1805 16:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Serious problem
1) There is no evidence cited by any serious historian that the cylinder has anything whatsoever to do with Cyrus.
2) The text is known to be highly fragemented. 99% of the text has nothing whatseover to do with human rights but rather quite opposed concepts such as the divine right of kings and the right of conquest.
The extrapolation seems to be based on a single phrase, the "freeing" of a city from the "yoke" of another ruling class, and the failure to kill the inhabitents as they surrendered instead of fighting. This terminology and practice of not killing the inhabitents of a city that surrenders is notable no sense and indeed ubiquitous throughout history.72.75.18.6 19:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Charter of Human Rights"
Please provide a source for this statement: "In 1971 the United Nations translated and published the Cyrus Cylinder as the first declaration of human rights into all official U.N.languages." The UN translates a lot of things. Did they really declare this decree to be the "first declaration of human rights"? Do legitimate historians agree with this interpretation? The text can be found here. In no way is this a "charter of human rights". --JW1805 03:36, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
There seem to beggfgdfg different versions of this declaration on the internet. Compare the two at this site and this site. The second site has a version with a lengthy extra part at the end, containing highly dubious material like: "I will impose my monarchy on no nation. Each is free to accept it , and if any one of them rejects it , I never resolve on war to reign." Some of the hyperbole on the various sites mentioning this declaration make me doubt their accuracy and objectivness. Is there a translation of this text from a reputable source (like the British Museum)? --JW1805 02:52, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
- Another version here, with an additional opening section not found in the other two versions. --JW1805 03:16, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
That is the real problem, I did a lot of searching but I was unable to find the real UN translation. Many sites translate it themselves and so the result is different. I will continue my search. --Aytakin 04:00, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
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The best place for a translation of the Cyrus Cylinder is, unfortunatly, in university libraries. There are many people adding their own parts to this so-called 'declaration of human rights'. It is no such thing. I have studied the cylinder as part of my dissertation (and I can read Akkadian) and I can assure you that many of the web sites are simply telling lies regarding the content of the cylinder. Basically, Cyrus was presenting himself as a ligitimate ruler of Babylon whilst trying to 'demonise' the previous ruler, Nabonidus. The 'human rights' stems from the Jewish tradition and has its roots in the fact that the Persians apparently gave them money to re-build their temple. It is no accident that Cyrus is praised in the bible yet is strangly absent from Persian epics. Cyrus was also used as an example of a good King by Xenophon of Athens in the Cyropedia, but this is purely a piece of rhetoric and most shcolars agree that it bears no resemblance to the 'real' Cyrus. In all, Cyrus was a very canny politician. He knew what he had to do to legitimise his rule and he made extensive use of propagander to do it. He could be described as 'tolerant' to other cultures as this was another tool to keep the empire (and they were not really intersted in non-Persians worshipping Ahura-Mazda anyway). However, to talk about Cyrus in modern terms of 'Human Rights' is ridiculous. It must be noted that Babylon was one of Persia'a 'hotspots' (along with Egypt) and there were several rebellions here. That is until Xerxes, the fourth King, decided to exterminate much of the population to keep them quite, as well as impose ridiculous levels of taxation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.253.63.15 (talk • contribs) 11:08, December 13, 2005.
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- This is very true, the only current relieble source of the translation is only university libraries. I have a translation to Farsi of the cylinder, which was published in باستان شناسی و هنر ایران (Archeology and Art of Iran) which was a very respected journal written during the rule of Mohammad Reza Shah by scholars. But the problem is its in farsi and I tried getting it translated, but then the problem was the translators don't know the historical terms, which messed it up. There are many good versions in Farsi and French, but none in English. --(Aytakin) | Talk 21:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
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One of the reasons Wikipedia is fast becoming a joke is the comments above. People with no real expertise in a field tearing apart and reconstructing history to reflect their own personal beliefs. Cyrus the great may indeed have not been perfect, but the facts speak loudly that he was more than just a "canny politician". It may be fashionable to find middle eastern historical figures and ascribe them with hidden motives and evil characteristics, but genuine scholars do no such thing. The foremost expert on Achaemenid Persia, Professor R.N.Frye (who I have indeed met, and who is incredibly astute), says this in "The Heritage of Persia" (pp. 123-134):
"In the victories of the Persians... what was different was the new policy of reconciliation and together with this was the prime aim of Cyrus to establish a pax Achaemenica..... If one were to assess the achievements of the Achaemenid Persians, surely the concept of One World, .... the fusion of peoples and cultures in one 'Oecumen' was one of their important legacies"
While the translations indeed may be overambitious in what they purport to translate, and have tacked on various meanings, including some wishful thinking, let's not turn this discussion, and Cyrus' Cylinder, into something else to suit political agendas. The Cylinder is unique, and so was Cyrus, so much so that his enemies respected him and his honor. The tradition of announcing reforms at the beginning of rulership is not unique, and thus this may not be the first declaration of human rights, but it is a very significant one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.167.62.119 (talk • contribs) 09:17, December 17, 2005.
TO ADD ON, the part I mentioned that I agree with the comments made by the unsigned user, I only meant the fact that its hard to find a relieble source for the translation, with the rest of it I do not agree with. I just want to clear that up!! --(Aytakin) | Talk 22:38, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Made-up?
A good part of this translation is made-up. The Babylonian text is in fragments and never as perfect as this. I will put on a scientific translation (from a "university library") up soon. --Khodadad 08:52, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Full translation of Cyrus Cylinder
I have confirmed the translation on http://www.livius.org/ct-cz/cyrus_I/babylon05.html to be a full translation of the Cyrus Cylinder and is in agreement with the translation found in "The Inscriptions Relating to the Rise of Cyrus And His Conquest of Babylonia". This book and many others have been scanned and made available in pdf format from www.brainfly.net —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.102.76.122 (talk • contribs) 15:18, March 22, 2006.
UN Translation: Where is the UN translation of 1971? I cannot find it on the UN websites! They spend lots of time and money to do something then hide it!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great In 1971, the UN translated it into all of its official languages.
82.70.40.190
One would suggest that the people above naming such academics as Frye read more up-to-date studies on Cyrus, such as the Acheamenid History Workshop series of publications that have changed the way Persia itself is studied. I did not, I think, present a picture of a demonised Cyrus, just a more realistic one. I have spent many a year studying this most famous (in the west - his impact on the eastern tradition of ancient folklore is limited) monarch and have deep respect for his achievements and the dynasty he created. It is now unfortunate that the myth preceeds the man...
Further to the disscussion, the best place to find an accurate and accepted (though by no means totally uncontested) translation is in Maria Brosius' book on Persian inscriptions as part of the LACTOR series:
Brosius,M (2000) 'The Persian Empire from Cyrus II to Artaxerxes I' in London Association of Classical Teachers 16: London.
This is the text usually presented to university students to study, at least in the UK anyway. Oppenheims text (cited above) is, unfortunatly, now considered 'out of date' (if I may use so bold an expression) though it does contain much colour in the prose.
[edit] Why is it kept in England
Shouldn't the Cyrus Cylinder be kept in Iran as it is their property, or is it that the Shah let them keep it as he was nothing but a puppet of the England.
- It should, as well as many other historical objects held by the British Museum that belong to Iran, but unfortunatly because many of the these objects were stolen from Iran and later were "found"/bought by the british museum, Iran can't get it back, partly because of the law and partly because they really don't care! --(Aytakin) | Talk 20:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
