Talk:Curse of the ninth

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A check with my desk Grove indicates only Bruckner actually died while trying to compose a Ninth. Opus33 04:25, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That mostly has to do with numbering controversies. Schubert's unfinished is sometimes labelled his ninth (and might have been more often so named back then). Dvorak's numbering is mixed up with three or more symphonies at one time being proclaimed as the ninth. You are quite right about Beethoven, however. - SimonP 04:59, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Atterberg 2 OR 3 Mozart and Haydn 4 Interwiki nl? 5 Shostokovich's 9th and Stalin

[edit] Atterberg

Dear Schissel,

Can I shyly ask you if you would mind having another look at your recently added sentence 'Atterberg, though he left a symphony for strings, did not number it; and his ninth is choral almost throughout.'....? I'm afraid I can't quite see what point it's meant to make in the context! Sorry if I'm being dim here; but I'm a great admirer of your efforts, and I'd like to see your thought shine clearly!

Regards, P.

I apologize for taking forever to answer this question. I think Atterberg may very possibly have failed to number his symphony for strings for the same reason that Mahler failed to number Das Lied, but do not know enough about him to be sure- namely, under the notion that the "curse" applied only to numbered and acknowledged symphonies. Was probably gratuitous - of me I mean!... to mention the choral nature of his 9th especially since it's not, I gather (I haven't heard it yet...) much like the Beethoven 9th - as might be implied by the words, "choral 9th symphony" (or even, "choral last symphony"). Schissel | Sound the Note! 19:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OR

What is all this Freudian business in the last couple paragraphs about Beethoven being the father figure in the composers' Oedipus complexes? I smell "original research"--and, frankly, garbage. It's completely unencyclopedic and should be removed.

I agree completely. Mostly psychobabble, plus some restatement of what had already been said. The article needs some serious rewriting, possibly from scratch. Anton Mravcek 23:15, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I've rewritten it, almost from scratch, trying to preserve all the facts in the previous version but getting rid of all those statements with exclamation marks. One exception: I did not mention Glenn Branca. The article on him is tagged as factually disputed. Del arte 21:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mozart and Haydn

I was pretty surprised that Mozart and Haydn were not mentioned. I put them in the article as examples to go against the existence of the curse. Academic Challenger 10:18, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't. Before Beethoven, writing a symphony wasn't a big deal. After, it was. So, for those who believe in such things, the curse started with Beethoven. Anton Mravcek 19:38, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Haydn and Mozart both wrote symphonies of increasing depth and complexity, but for the most part an 18th century symphony was meant to be a relatively light and entertaining piece of music. If a composer wanted to do something to really impress an audience he'd write music for the church.--Saxophobia 22:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Interwiki nl?

Easy enough to guess when a biography, but I'll need help with this one - should m:nl:9e Symfonie-syndroom be interwiki'd here? Schissel | Sound the Note! 19:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd say yes. "syndroom" is probably not quite the same as "malédiction" but it's obvious that both articles list composers who wrote more than nine Symphonies. Del arte 18:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Malédiction is the French for curse. I don't speak Dutch but using German I can guess the topics are essentially the same. Keriluamox 19:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't speak Dutch either. I think we should wait until a Dutch-speaking Wikipedian confirms this, no matter how sure we may be from our knowledge of other languages. Anton Mravcek 22:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a little late, since it's already interwiki'd, but as a native speaker I can confirm that the article is indeed about the same subject. Whether it's a syndrome or a curse is something Dutch wikipedia should figure out. SQB 13:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shostokovich's 9th and Stalin

The recently added paragraph on Shostokovich's Ninth Symphony in relation to Stalin's regime all sounds like a truth that any lazy concert program notes writer would fall back on. For that reason we must question those statements and see if we can find citations for them. Anton Mravcek 17:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Well I’ve got something in a… French political science review, in an issue about music and politics two years ago. There’s an article about Shostakovich’s symphonies in the context of Soviet politics, there’s nothing about the Beethoven and Mahler quotes but the part about the context seems quite right. Does it qualify as a citation? I can translate the useful paragraph if you like. Keriluamox 00:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, please, if it's not too much trouble. Just as long as we don't take Volkov's Testimony as gospel truth. Anton Mravcek 17:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, here’s the quotation :

After the war, the mood changes on each side. What could be expected from the composer in 1945? A triumph song would obviously succeed the expression of pains. But where is victory in the 9th symphony? The expected colossus is not there, and, on the contrary, the main traits are shortness, classicism, joyfulness almost up to buffoonery, elusive lyricism and rather satyrical ellipsises. Disappointment for the nationalists; dismay for the stalinians. “The statue of a dwarf in front of the greatness of victory”, an official critic says. Although the incoming wave of persecution goes far beyond Shostokavich’s case, it is not surprising that he will be one of the targets of the campaign against formalist artists that will surge in the following years.

Delannoi, Gil (2004): "Portait politique en musique". Raisons politiques. Études de pensée politique, No. 14, pp. 68–69. Now perhaps we should have a look at a Shostak biography to get another reference. Keriluamox 14:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I'll be going to the library later today for the Shosty bio. Anton Mravcek 17:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)