Talk:Cumans
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I removed Béla Kun from the list of people whose surnames are related to the Cumans until someone can offer proof that his last name isn't simply a variation of Cohen.
Bassarab and Tihomir are NOT CUMANS, they were romanian although they bore names of Cuman origin. Romanian political entities are mentioned since 1247 whilst there is no written or archaeological evidence of a significant Cuman population or political entity in the region between Carpathians and Danube at that time. Undoubtedly, they had a great influence when they dominated this space in the XIIth century, hence the Cuman names of Bassarab and Tihomir. Saying that Bassarab and Tihomir are Cuman warlords, only by a name basis is like saying King George of England was a Greek because he has a name of Greek origin.
Moreover THE CUMANS DID NOT FOUD WALLACHIA. Wallachia was founded by native romanians
By the way, the fact that Bassarab and Tihomir were romanians and not cumans is a certainty. I believe the person who's editing this article should study this problem thoroughly i.e The Diploma of The Joannites from 1247, archaeological indications regarding Cuman ethnic population in rapport with the romanian one and so on.
I couldn't have agreed more.84.234.110.198 13:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- I have removed this statement: However taking into account that the two of them ruled over territories formerly reigned by the Romanian leaders mentioned in the Diploma of the Joannites from 1247, and that there is no archeological evidence to sustain the continuous presence of a Cuman population, only Hungarian documents mentioning a toll-paying Wallachian population, it is quite obvious that Tihomir and Basarab I were as Romanian as the population they reigned over). This statement is an POV opinion not based on any sound facts. According to mainstream historians there are nothing obvoius about history of Vallachia before 1300 AD. In fact population of present day Vallachia an Moldavia was ethnicaly mixed during Middle Ages: Romanian, Slavonic and Turkic. Presence of hundreds names of Turkic origin in Romania, names of rulers and nobility, as well as extremally strong presence of Slavonic elements in ROmanian language and culture strongly support this thesis. It is quite possibly that ruling class was of Turkic, nomad, origin. Nomads frequently used to subdue more settled population. By the way Tihomir is not Turkic name but Slavonic one. Yeti 20:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way, Tihomir is a actually a Cuman name: Tok Temur (Strong Iron). You'd better check this thoroughly as it obvious you did not bother to do that when you posted that. Sound facts that show this is not a personal opinion:
1.In 1247 the diploma of the joannites mentions 4 rulers identified as "wallachs": Ioan (John), Farkas (the hungarian name for the slavonic "Valcea"=Wolf), Seneslau (in hungarian document Szanislo) and Litovoi. The document makes a difference between this toll paying rulers and other slavonic and turkic populations that were scattered across this space.
2.The wallachian population usually lived in hill regions, not on open fields like slavonic and turkic populations. Historians such as Keith Higgins agree on the fact that the Mongolic invasion from 1241 scattered the slavonic and turcik populations on the romanian plains allowing the wallachians to fill the political vacuum in that region. Moreover, most of the cumans refugeed in Hungary after the crushing of their state, led by Kuthan.
3.As i said earlier, the strong name influence the cuman and slavs exercised upon romanian population does not indicate that the ruling class was of that ethnic origin. This thesis is as absurd as saying that King George of England is a Greek just by having a greek name or that Jonathan Swift was a Jewish just because it has a Jewish name. If we follow this premise, then user Yeti is obviously a tibetan.
4.Nomad usually used to subdue the more settled population, i agree, but they usually were assimilated by the settled populations who were more culturally advanced than them. That is why the Bulgarians, turkic people at origin, are now a slavonic people. And there are plenty examples of this kind.
5. Hungarian documents mention in these region a toll-paying wallachian population (see the conflict between Litovoi and Laszlo IV). Does this not ring the bell? the hungarian chroncles always make a difference between the slavs and wallachs during this century unlike previous centuries. Of course the population was mixed(as in any other state or region of the globe) but the romanian were the majority.
[edit] Merge?
Cumania has a lot of cited material that deals with Cuman as opposed to the territory. Should these articles be merged?--tufkaa 15:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
yep.The 89 guy 08:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I would merge both articles into Kypchak. --Ghirla -трёп- 17:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
- I still think an article on the area is warranted (much like Severia). However, much information from this article should be moved to Severians and or as you suggested Kypchaks.--tufkaa 17:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] English Name
I changed the English name, because that is how my Atlas puts them at.
