Talk:Cult of personality

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[edit] Old talk

I think that adding Franco to this article is highly debatable. While there are some good reasons to include Franco in this list, his supposed cult of personality paled in comparision to the other individuals in this article. I also think that the picture is unsuitable. It gives off a false impression that Franco's "cult" was as extensive as that of say, Mao or Hitler. Furthermore, the picture doesn't provide any further explanation of what a cult of personality would look like, as it merely portrays a meeting between Hitler and Franco.

I'm having NPOV issues with the use of that picture there. -- John Owens 19:14 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)

Why? -- User:J.J. 05:28 Apr 6, 2003

Because it's too wide and slops into the right margin. -- Zoe
Not for me. What an awesome picture. Actually I am not sure I believe it's a stadium crowd.

I think the item about gurus should be included in the main text because it is so closely related to cult of the personality of political leaders. Cults can be considered as mini dicatorships. -- Andries 31 Jan 2004

I do have a problem with this picture which appears to be of the forbidden City and its caption.

Image:Cultmao.jpg
Mao Zedong has a vast cult of personality

Mao Zedong *had* a vast cult of personality in the 1960's, he doesn't have one today, and having large monuments for a dead political leader isn't considered a cult of personality (i.e. George Washington). The amount of Mao related stuff in China in 2004 isn't that out of line with other nations. In one sense, the Forbidden City picture is misleading in that it is the *only* place where I've seen a large picture of Mao in public, and its not on every street corner.

If you can replace it with something from the Cultural Revolution (i.e. painting of Mao at the time or something with red marks quoting Mao) that would be better.

Roadrunner 15:28, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

I have to agree with you on that one. Why does a poster of Mao count as a vast cult of personality, but a statue of Lincoln does not?

-Al234 17:39, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Shrines to Lincoln and Jefferson on the national Mall do represent an aspect of personality cult, insofar as the personality substitutes for the issues and obscures objective history with patriotic legend. --Wetman 22:59, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'll leave it out, and I will replace it with Stalin's pic. WhisperToMe 22:40, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

I have restored the Palace of Soviets image, removed by User:Mihnea Tudoreanu, saying "the Palace of Soviets picture doesn't really belong here, since a personality cult means adulation of a LIVING leader, and Lenin was long dead when the Palace was designed." This redefinition to exclude irredentist adulation of Ceaucescu or Abraham Lincoln won't fly. There certainly is an aspect of personality cult that developed around Lincoln, and it should be frankly addressed. Hitler is still the subject of a personality cult. Cult of personality is not just a cult of "living bad guys." Let's improve this entry. --Wetman 22:59, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC) --Wetman 22:59, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Excuse me, but Ceaucescu was very much alive when his cult of personality existed. As for Abraham Lincoln, if you think there's a "cult of personality" surrounding him, you'd better cite some credible sources. In any case, as the article stands now, it clearly states:
"Cult of personality or personality cult describes excessive adulation of a single living leader, whose personal iconography comes to be substituted for issues, and whose presence warps objective history."
"It should be noted that the term "personality cult" does not generally refer to showing respect for the dead (such as historic national founders), nor does it refer to honoring symbolic leaders who have no real power."
So if you want to insert the Palace of Soviets image, you'd better rework the article first. And justify your changes here, of course. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 23:39, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
And just to clarify what I mean by "you'd better cite some credible sources": Does any respected sociologist or historian expand the definition of a personality cult to include dead leaders? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 23:45, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

i think you should mention col.gaddafi in this article, for he is fournishing a great example of the cult of personality with his pictures on the school books,on the currency and on huge billboards scattered in the streets and in public places.he even changed the calendar and the name of his country.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people need to deny the obvious. So theres no cult of personality for Lincoln? (Or Jefferson, or Kennedy, for that matter?) Thats the same of saying that there wasnt a cult of personality for Julius Ceasar - the term didnt exist back then! In a similar way, a cult of Hitlers personality exists even today, as does one for Elvis. Its proposterous to say that because someone died it isnt cult of personality anymore.
Your comments imply that "US citizens dont do this cult of personality stuff", since after all "cult of personality refers only to bad guys/its a bad thing". Wake up and smell the coffee.LtDoc 21:52, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
All leaders have their proponents. Personality cult denotes the propagation of godlike status, and often the repression of opposing views. Lincoln was, during the time of his life, one of the most hated presidents in American history. Your comments imply a relativity reflex.:::
I'm sorry, but I have to agree with LtDoc and others on this talk page who have cited posthomus Cult of Personality status. It is a reality, no matter what semantics you want to get into. Lincoln, Washington, Kennedy - all prime examples of a posthomus cult of personality. How anyone can argue that those three listed presidents haven't enjoyed posthomus cult of personality status is just beyond me. I suspect LtDoc is right in thinking that this article is being approached with the idea that only bad men can have cults of personality around them, and that apparently the USA is exempt from cults of personality.

I'm curious to know, too, where this is idea that a cult of personality must refer to a living person came from? The dictionary definition makes no such claim, so, where does this idea come from? The dictionary definition is simply: "intense devotion to a particular person" - No reference to living status, or whether or not they have to be bad men to get that intense devotion.--Aco


Random trivia:

I think that should be added to the article, as the song doesn't only share the title with it, but discusses the theme directly, including names of leaders.

Random personal trivia:

  • The first several times I heard that song, not knowing the name of it, I was certain that the singer was saying "fucked-up personality" in the chorus. — FREAK OF NURxTURE (TALK) 11:26, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

I note the lack of mention of other important figures who left the government to avoid becoming like that like the once President of the South African Government [Nelson Mandela]

Edited [Dwarf Kirlston|User:Dwarf Kirlston] Feb 16

What about Hirohito? During a large portion of his reign wasn't there a cult of personality surrounding him? 68.100.106.83 05:48, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)


Cults of personality are one of the most frequently used tools of governmental indoctrination in the United States. An common aspect of the Cult of Personality is the creation of a fiction or mythology surrounding the character. Let us not forget the chopping of Washington's cherry tree or "Honest Abe's" returned penny. These are not things that have been invented hundreds of years after the fact, but myths which arose from a very real cult of personality.

In fact, I would argue that the presidency of the United States holds a de facto personality cult. After all, is not the President's image shown in virtually every gradeschool classroom? And don't we watch the President even while he's on vacation? While it may not be a universally supported cult status, we must admit the President holds a special place, elevated to the status of diety in the minds of the public, be that diety good or evil.

The display of an image such as the current image of Stalin is somewhat biased, as is the bias towards mentioning those with cults of personality who were not the best of leaders. Ceacescu, Hitler, and Kim Jong-il may not have been great leaders, but the personality cult does not simply arise around evil people. As I mentioned before, personality cults arise around Presidents of the United States almost immediately. I hold, in fact, that the vast majority of "founding fathers" have cults of personality surrounding them, and in fact had such during their lives.

Frankly, I think "Dear Leader" is analagous to "Honest Abe."

I would argue that you've watered down the definition of "personality cult" to the point where it no longer means anything. Relativity run amuck, again.

[edit] Contradiction

In one place it says that it only applies when they're currently living at the time of their personality cult, and then goes on to list Ataturk "posthomus"... -- Joolz 19:01, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually it waffles by saying "generally". But you're right, there should at least be some explanation for his inclusion. -Willmcw 21:20, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Berlusconi

Silvio Berlusconi, the Prime Minister of Italy, is the only recent example of a somehow "mild" cult of personality in a major industrial nation and a G8 member.

I removed this sentence from the article because I think that such an assertion needs to be backed by a source who has made the charge. Or at least substantial list of actions that have supported a cult of personality. Cheers, -Willmcw 19:30, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I've removed it again, still looking for a source. -Willmcw 21:06, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chiang Kai-shek

Another example comes from the Chinese Nationalist leader Chiang Kai-shek. When Chiang died in 1975, Taiwanese were required to sing the Chiang Kai-shek Memorial Song, which praised Chiang to be "the savior of mankind" and "the greatest person in the whole world."

The trouble with this example is that the article states that cults of personality extend only to the living.

Roadrunner 14:33, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I do think there is a place, though, for posthumous cults which spring soon after death, such as with Chiang or most famously Lenin. --TJive 22:22, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

The education system in Taiwan called for the use of an extra space when writing Chiang Kai-shek's name. This started when he was alive. His writings such as "Soviet Russia in China" had to be read by school kids each morning. Shawnc 06:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fidel Castro

Considering the length of the thread that was here I've moved it to Talk:Cult of personality/Castro archive. Here's what it comes down to (at least from my point of view). The central question is whether there is an abundance of images in public places, one of the prerequisites for attributing a cult status to someone. Since my personal observation wasn't accepted (original research), I've asked at three travel forums what others have observed. The results are at travellerspoint, aardvark and lonely planet. Especially the last one has a sufficient number of entries (16) to settle the question; there are hardly any public images of Castro. DirkvdM 08:44, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the above summary and conclusion; I would also like to mention that the reason I have withdrawn from this debate a long time ago is because I believe it blows the issue completely out of proportion. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 17:57, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] George W. Bush

  • American president George W. Bush is also getting started with his own cult of personality [1][2], by way of the George W. Bush Online Store [3], featuring the ubiquitous "W The President" car stickers.

Political bumper stickers have been popular in American politics for decades. "Nixon's the man" Though these may not be part of an active campaign, they are still conventional signs of political support. If Bush put his face on the coinage, or if we started singing "Our Great Commander W" every morning at work, then he'd have a cult of personality. The only way that we should include a comment like the one above is if we clarify that it is intended as hyperbole. The sources don't seem to be using it seriously. IMO. Cheers, -Willmcw 06:05, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

This is simply another example of how political partisans attempt to utilize user-driven sites for their own purposes, even with something as pathetic as this attempt (but also Berlusconi). That said, if anyone has a personality cult in the present-day US, it's Robert Byrd. You can't spit in WV without hitting a road, airport, or other public works project bearing his name or likeness. --TJive 20:19, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
This just proves how difficult it is to separate political fact from political opinion, and gives me an idea: Instead of saying "Some current countries that feature personality cults are...", we could simply edit the article to say "Some current countries that have been accused by their opponents of featuring personality cults are..." Or, alternatively, we could give some countries as uncontroversial examples of personality cults (North Korea and Turkmenistan are all but impossible to avoid), and give others (Cuba, maybe even the USA under Bush) as controversial examples. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:16, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Or, better still, give sort of a gradation. This is certainly not black and white (but then, what ever is?). Or maybe a table of characteristics which are then ticked off (or given a rating) per person. Also, I say 'per person'. It is now presented as if it is a treat of a country, but it's really about the person, right? And that could also be someone who has an international personality cult. The Pope is one possibility. But even better ones would be football and popmusic idols. Do they have to be political? The article doesn't explicitly state that, although all the examples are political. Except in the end, where religion and celebrities are mentioned. And what about Einstein? Or is he an icon? And if that's something different, then is that not worth a separate article? Plenty food for thought. Happy digestion :) . DirkvdM 07:59, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I think Einstein would be included as the subject of Hero Worship, as described below -- Not cult of personality. Of course as a member of his cult, I would say that, now wouldn't I?
In the United States in the last half-century, the closest thing to a cult of personality connected to a living leader was in the case of Ronald Reagan, whose supporters launched

efforts to name ships and public buildings after him while he was still alive. I don't know if this would count though, as the "deification" of Reagan came when he was no longer in office albeit still living.

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/x/_/bush_ourleader.jpg Does this help qualify Bush, or is the purely relative, subjective, pejorative term reserved for people across borders? This entire article should be deleted for being a weasel word. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.255.43.49 (talk) 03:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
Bush does not have a cult-of-personality, period, end of discussion. Let me be very honest; I hate Bush, I see him as a war criminal and there are a lot of horrible things that I feel can be attributed to the man. However, no matter how bad he is he simply does not have a cult-of-personality. The two examples in the articles, of the Kim family in North Korea and of Niyazov in Turkmenistan perfectly illustrate what is meant by this term; in those countries all literature, music and media HAS to be about them. So much as questioning the wisdom of the Dear Leader can, and does, result in execution. Anything critical of the leader is banned and the leaders are portrayed as almost Gods. Niyazov has banned most books and requires all people to read his own book, as an example. No matter what Bush has done, the political climate of the United States, and, for that matter, any developed country, does not seem capable of supporting a cult-of-personality. Let's try to stay encyclopedic and not let our political vendettas push us to put someone in an article who does not belong there simply because we don't like that person. --The Way 02:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Defacement

I've removed the random attempts at comedy in this article i.e. references to "niggers" and "homosexuals" and restored it back to normal.

Please do not use Wikipedia as an attempt to insert your current partisan political views, whatever they may be. The mere fact that people are able to disagree with the president in the United States (and many do) precludes the idea of it being a cult of personality. Cults of personality prohibit opposing views. You cannot, for example, show disrespect to either of the Kims in North Korea.

[edit] Cults of the dead?

An anon editor makes an interesting point. Is the cult of personality always only directed at living leaders? This surely isn't true in North Korea, for instance, and as noted, wasn't true of Turkey, where Ataturk was used as a symbol by a particular sector of the populace. Can the statement that it only refers to the living be sourced? Grace Note 06:11, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Near the top of this page there's already been a discussion about this. I'd say never mind the Lincoln Memorial. What about the Mount Rushmore Memorial, with those huge heads of four US presidents (including Lincoln again) carved out in a rockface? If that is not glorification, I don't know what is. And they were all dead when this was carved DirkvdM 06:54, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
I'd say there's quite a bit of difference in creating monuments (of which Mt. Rushmore was a particularly experimental sort) to respect older leaders and utilizing a dead persona to instill obedience towards a particular regime; choice, IMO, has a lot to do with it and nobody can honestly question that giving criticism (or worse) about a Lenin or Che was or ever has been the same as for Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt, and especially Lincoln. --TJive 07:40, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
A personality cult is about adoration, not criticism. And if one is to add criticism to the equation, I'd say that actually reduces the cult in stead of reinforcing it (which I suspect you meant). DirkvdM 08:39, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I believe my meaning was rather clear, that significant criticism is and was not allowed of figures such as Lenin and that this is much more indicative of a cult than there merely existing a monument. Monuments do not in and of themselves constitute a cult, and the narrow focus on singular physical aspects is why the above argument (re: Castro) appears obtuse on one side; I also do not see how you could misinterpret what I just said. --TJive 16:00, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
I interpreted it the way you said it. You do bring up something relevant, though. Is the suppression of criticism an aspect of a personality cult? The article doesn't say anything about it. More relevant here is, though, whether the absence of such suppression means there is no cult. I wouldn't say that, so that doesn't affect the possibility of a personality cult around Washington or Lincoln. By the way, I assume there was no serious suppression of criticism with them, but I don't really know. You always get that to some extent. Officially, like with the Dutch queen (again) - criticising her is against the law. How much that is enforced is another matter. But in the US there is is a very strong suppression of criticism outside the law. The extreme nationalism in the US extends at least to some extent to revering the leader. Any criticism against anything national has to start with something like "I love America, but....". Does that sort of 'peer suppression' (or what should I call it?) also count? That would constitute a personality cult irrespective of who the person is (ie whoever the president is). This is getting complicated!
Another thing. These discussions are deep down very often about good guys vs bad guys (or girls... hmmm, no girls?). But you can also have a personality cult for a good guy/girl, right? (Anyway, who decides who is good or bad? - take Castro for example.) More and more I feel it would be a good idea to make a table of cultproperties versus people and tick off or grade the properties for each. DirkvdM 07:12, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Washington had one while he was alive!

Actually, Washington did have a personality cult - and it existed during his lifetime. How do you think he ran unopposed? It is merely Western psuedo-pychology o claim that the West doesn't have such things as personality cults, it did with the LIVING Ronald Reagan!

I refer you to U.S. presidential election, 1789. As you can see, there were over ten opponents who received electoral votes, and probably many more who didn't. --Merovingian (t) (c) 06:03, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
I don't get this. I don't really get the US electoral system. That article does state that Washington ran unopposed. And U.S. presidential election, 1792 also states that, plus "As with his first term, Washington is considered to have been elected unanimously." Is the discrepancy to do with two electoral stages?
I realize that your desire to go after the US is strong, but if you don't get something so basic to your point as the US electoral system, perhaps you shouldn't be speaking as such an authority, eh?
A better reason to ascribe a cult to Washington might be the naming of many things after him, most notably the city and the state, and the statues and other images, most notably Mount Rushmore. But all those examples are from after his death and the article states that that means there is no cult, although this point is disputed quite a bit. DirkvdM 07:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I think there's a difference between a cult of personality and hero worship, which could better describe the phenomenon seen with Washington. --Merovingian (t) (c) 08:54, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
Can you imagine my laughter now? Listen to yourself! If you think he's a bad guy it's a cult of personality and when you think he's a good guy you just think of a different name. With the word 'hero' in it of course. Anyway, like I've already asked elsewhere, why is this cult thing presented as something inherently bad? I think the article needs a major cleanup in that respect. Why distinguish between a cult of personality and hero worship? It's the same thing, isn't it? That the article pretty much starts with stating that it's typical of totalitarian states sets a negative tone it doesn't need to have. DirkvdM 17:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
DittoLtDoc 22:56, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
He clearly has a cult of personality. Cults of personality often generate mythologies, and those mythologies are virtual tell-tale signs. George Washington's cutting down of his fabled cherry tree and unspoken words "I cannot tell a lie" can't be the result of anything less than a personality cult. The same can be said of "Honest Abe" and his returning a single penny. Those events never happened in recorded history, but arose due to a cult of personality. - MrKeith2317 0209, 30 August 2005
An important difference between Parson Weems and a Soviet biographer of Stalin in 1930 is that Weems was not employed by Washington or the government. From my understanding of history, much of the hero worship that developed around Washington during his lifetime was spontaneous. It may have been helped by Federalist pampheleteers, but it was not a government operation. That's what separates hero worship (voluntary) from cults of personality (state supported/imposed). -Willmcw 06:55, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
Ah, that last bit sounds interesting and makes sense. This would mean that there is indeed a very negative aspect to a personality cult, namely that it is forced down people's throats (then again, in principle it could happen both at the same time). Can you back this up? If so, it should be mentioned. Or maybe there should even be a separate article on hero worship. Or is that Charismatic authority? Or is a personality cult a fake form of that? By the way, I suppose Hitler had such a mix of spontaneous and forced veneration as I mentioned. DirkvdM 14:56, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

Some good points made by everyone. I wrote a lot of the current article so I am now being asked to contribute to the discussion.

It seems with a lot of articles (especially ones describing negative political phenomena) some wikipedias have an obsession with trying to cram some reference to the United States into it, no matter how akward the process is. As far as I am concerned, there has never been anything in the US resembling a personality cult. However, I think it is important to classify personality cults as a relatively modern phenomenon. In the old days, before the modern democratic state came into existance, leaders were almost always venerated in an overly lavish way that today seems strange and excessive. That was just part of being a leader. So yes, George Washington was venerated, but that was in a large part due to the fact that that's just how Heads of State in general were treated in those times. As countries liberalized and became more democratic in terms of political dissent and debate and whatnot obviously people stopped caring about and going along with leader worship. I don't know when exactly you could say this era of sorts ended, but I would estimate mid to late 19th Century. Before then you could essientially just point to any leader and say he had a personality cult. Queen Victoria, Simon Bolivar, Ivan the Terrible, etc etc etc

We can only really classify personality cults today because we know what the alternative is. That is to say we can now argue a personality cult is not "normal," as judged by the modern-day, international, democratic standard of how political leaders are "supposed" to be treated in a modern, free society.

That being said, I think a separate article on hero worship would be valid, as it is a distinct subject. It's an equally negative concept, but one that goes beyond politics and beyond living political leaders. For example, a possible definiton could be like:

Hero worship is a critical term describing the overly-lavish adulation of any individual who is admired for posessing heroic or positive qualities. Hero worship is often characterized by a reluctance to criticize or debate the merits of the individual, or accept that he or she had any negative characteristics.

So anyway to summerize, here is my belief in the basic characteristics of a personality cult:

  1. It exists in modern times, namely the 20th Century
  2. It is directed around the person of a single, currently-serving political leader
  3. It ascribes generally super-human or "perfect" characteristics to the leader, which are obviously untrue
  4. The cult is manefested in a vast, widespread scale with the intent of being known to every citizen
  5. The cult is state-sanctioned, and manditory (disagreeing with the cult is an offense)
  6. It has no real precedent (ie: none of his predecessors were treated in a similar manner)
  7. Its excesses are unusual by the standards of similar countries

Comments? user:J.J. 15:20, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

That first bit, that a personality cult is a modern thing, is certainly worth explaining, the way you just did (just a bit shorter). But my main question to you was where one can find a general theory about the subject. I have found texts, but all of them about specific cults, not about the theory in general (such as the list you give). Since there is disagreement as to what characteristics are valid, we need an objective source. As for Hero Worship, how does that differ from charismatic authority? That it has a negative connotation? And how then does it differ from personality cult? And is a personality cult inherently negative? DirkvdM 08:23, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Hero worship, as I said is not just about politicians. For example someone could engage in hero worship of a sports figure, like Babe Ruth, or Elvis, or other celebrities. I would also say yes, a personality cult is inherently negative, because I believe a personality cult by definition involves forced participation and lying. user:J.J.
Ok, but it's really just a matter of definition. It doesn't quite follow from the constituent terms. Therefore that is not obvious and needs to be said right at the top. Charismatic authority is then a positive cult of personality. And hero worship is something similar with non-politicians (which leaves open whether it is positive or negative). Is this a good representation of what you mean? And can you source it? That is rather important here (and difficult) because any uncertainty about the definition can lead to endless discussions about whether (and how) some person should be mentioned. But even then there is a huge problem. Because who decides what is positive or negative? (We can't just change the definition to avoid this problem.) One solution might be to merge this article with charismatic authority, state at the top what the difference between the two is (assuming that is only the posi/nega-tive thing) and then avoid the terms somehow in the rest of the article (how?) and leave it to the reader to decide which of the two terms applies to whom. DirkvdM 09:30, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I see now that you've already written a history-section. Looks good (though I'll have to ponder on it a bit more). But I think the definition should come first, as a list of characteristics. So I've added that to the top, based on your list. The last point is a bit vague. What do you mean by that? Are you sure about the 'currently serving' thing? I think that would provoke quite a bit of controversy, so I cowardly left it out.
What about Hirohito? He was venerated in his lifetime in the 20th century, as a god. And therefore supernatural (your 3rd point). But one can not say that that is obviously untrue because believers in him would disagree with that. At least, this is based on my rather limited knowledge of the veneration of Hirohito. DirkvdM 10:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Another early example

Another early example of a cult of personality during both life and death would be Alexander the Great. He purposedly named cities after him and erected statues, not to mention took advantage of local mythology to make him seem to be divinely inspired.

Quite relevant here is how much of it happened after his death, because a lot of this veneration has gone on to this day. Even more later maybe, because people seem to have forgotten what a murdering bastard he was :) . The 'divinely inspired' thing applies to many, not only in ancient times (eg the Roman emperors were said to be (half)gods). Where was it that I read that Bush claims to talk to God? Sounds like something made up by opponents, but in the case of Bush I wouldn't be too surprised, really. DirkvdM 14:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bush

Hi 211, you'll need to provide a reputable source for your edit; the article you linked to was written by a freelance for a little known website, so far as I can tell. I've removed the paragraph: "Certain left-wing groups in the United States argued the existance of a semi-cult of personality around president George W. Bush, with some of his partisan supporters refering to heim as Commander-in-Chief, appointed by God, and the only person capable of defeating terrorism. Many of Bush's opponents, such as John Kerry and numerous celeberities and journalists, were either boycotted or blackwashed, and some were refered to as "traitors" or "comforting the enemy". SlimVirgin (talk) 02:53, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Huey P. Long

too much of a stretch? 172.149.168.102 04:46, 21 September 2005 (UTC)


I removed:


The extreme cult of personality as we think of it today, is thus a fairly contemporary phenomenom. Like the concept of totalitarianism in general, personality cults are often seen as a product of modern media, and thus could not be achieved in earlier eras, before the existence of things such as television, movies, and radio.

It is too much of a stretch to make this statement and call "personality of cult" as a "product of modern media" or "fairly contemporary."

--Charlestustison 05:43, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kemal Atatürk

I added Kemal Atatürk's Turkey to the list of hosts of personality cults but somehow it disappeared. So let me explain briefly why it is correct to add Kemal Atatürk's Turkey to the list. Several of the properties of a personality cult fits to Turkey very well at that time. Those are resisting democratic reform (there was a one-party state for 22 years, and an authoritarian character of the regime is unquestionable); revolutionary consciousness; honoring the governer as the liberator and the saviour; statues (in all of the schools and many other public places), paintings (in all of the classrooms and again at many other places); propaganda; and quashing the opposition within a ruling elite (e.g. the lawsuit to execute Kazım Karabekir who is one of the powerful commanders in the Independence War of Turkey, sending another potent figure of the Independence War, Ali Fuat Cebesoy to Moscow as an ambassador. Kazım Karabekir was the commander of the armies of east while Ali Fuat was the commander of the armies of the west Anatolia.) These are enough to put Atatürk's Turkey o the list, and I have added it.

You're wrong in many points: 1) There weren't any "resisting democrating reform": Actually two trials were made. One in 1925, (Terakkiperver Cumhuriyet Firkasi) which ended in self-dissolution after some of its founders and members has participated in Izmir Assasination attempt in 1926. The second one in 1930, the liberal Serbest Cumhuriyet Firkasi which was founded by one of Atatürk's friends (probably funded by himself) dissolved itself not because of government indiction but because of Atatürk's refusal (maybe inability) to disassociate himself from the ruling party due to pressure. Despite Atatürk's public urge to continue to its works, the party's president (Fethi Okyar) and founders dissolved the party not to be seen opposed to Atatürk.

2) A liberator of a country of course will be honoured. Aren't Washington, Lincoln, Churchill honoured, their face printed on the money? This doesn't make a cult of personality.

3) Kazim Karabekir were never executed. The frivolous lawsuits were dismissed and actually he was selected as the President of Parliament in 1947.

4) Ali Fuat Cebesoy was sent to Soviet Union, first due to need of an absolutely trustable associate in the most important and maybe only ally of Turkey during the war. (He was a childhood friend and tablemate of Atatürk in military school) As a soldier, he was unable to contain Greeks' advance or show any efficiency of transiting the National Forces into regular army. It is normal that who can't do the job gets dismissed.

[edit] Mugabe

I think it's fair enough to link Mugabe. See the following links:

uses term says Mugabe is focus of personality cult, or great leader concept says opponents accuse him of it uses term. James James 07:17, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

That's interesting, but if he has a personality cult, why doesn't it come across in the government's mouthpiece, the Harare Herald? Sure, there's an occasional editorial by a Zanu-PF suck-up, but nothing on the scale you see with the best-known personality cults. Gazpacho 07:22, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

You'll point to the Herald articles that criticise Mugabe's policies then? ;-) I take your point, but I think you should bow to the sources, which analyse his personality cult in broader terms than "the papers say good things about him". The Herald never veers from the Zanu-PF line but it's true that it steers clear of "Mugabe Saviour of the Nation" editorials. But Zimbabwe is not Soviet Russia. It has a press of sorts and the Herald must compete with other news sources to some extent.James James 07:33, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I'll leave it in.

But I can't resist pointing out that in Soviet Russia, personality cult has YOU! Gazpacho 07:54, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Should we merge Populist_leaders_of_Latin_America_in_the_20th_century with this article?

...since they are about the same thing. --MACMILLAN 21:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure they are, actually, although there is a good deal of overlap. It seems to me that this article is more focused on the concept, while charismatic leaders is interested in specific people.... – Seancdaug 05:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
They seem to me to be quite different. Kim Jong-Il is not particularly charismatic, for example, and José María Velasco Ibarra is not known for having a cult of personality. -Will Beback 17:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

No. As the intro indicates, there is a huge difference between praising a leader because you're sold on his vision, and praising him because you'll be arrested if you don't. Gazpacho 04:10, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Please note that I changed the title of the article charismatic leaders to Populist_leaders_of_Latin_America_in_the_20th_century and I made the first a re-direct to charismatic authority, following the example of charismatic leader Andries 09:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ted Stevens

Is it true what I have heard that Ted Stevens arranged for Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport to be named after himself. Does this make him have a degree of cult of personality too? :) --RPlunk 01:58, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] European monarchies were not personality cults

The concept of divine right of kings which developed in feudal Europe did not correspond to a cult of personality. The individual monarchs were not revered as deities, and criticism was not interpreted as blasphemy. These attitudes are inconsistent with medieval attitudes and historical events. I removed these unsupported assertions from the text.

StephenMacmanus 05:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

They were not revered as deities, but they certainly were revered. I'm adding that little point back in. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 01:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chavez

Any references for this? Gazpacho 21:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conan O Brien?

This article cites "Conan O Brien of Finland" as a personality cult...this is a joke right?--Hypergeometric2F1[a,b,c,x] 21:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Good catch. -Will Beback 21:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Conan O'Brien does have a cult personality. futureconanasia.ytmnd.com photographic evidence, lol] MafiaCapo 16:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


Doesn't Conan O'Brien have hero worship if anything? I thought the distinction was political. But I wouldn't mind seeing a Colbert/O'Brien 08 ticket. - grahamular

[edit] Charismatic...

Some clarifications:

a. "Charismatic leader" is a category of leadership first used by Emile Durkheim. So the article should be more properly associated with this French sociologist.

b. "cult of personality", at least in political science, is more often associated with the study of totalitarian governments, especially fascism.

As for the actual text of the article "charismatic leader" displayed on wkipedia, I reccommend oits deletion as it reads like a "cut and paste". Furthermore, without any theoretical introduction the text reads as gibberish.

[edit] Eva Peron vs Juan Peron

Eva Peron is listed on the page as an example of a cult of personality. However, the Juan Peron article actually links to this page, in reference to the cult of personality surrounding Juan Peron. I question the inclusion of Eva Peron on the list (since she was not the actual power holder at the time), and at the very least this should be modified to "Juan Peron and Eva Peron -- Argentina"

[edit] This is a propaganda article

Only the enemies of the US carry out cult of personality? C'mon give a break. There is cult of Elvis Presley in the US and of almost every Rock star. Every Holiwood actor is a personality worshipped and revered by almost every American. Every millionaire, Bill Gates, etc. The president of the US. So, please try to balance this article, otherwise is only worth for what at the moment is: Propaganda.--tequendamia 08:19, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

You are taking the phrase "cult of personality" entirely outside the definition as described in the article. Many celebrities are worshipped by their fans; these are not cults of personality except in an ironic sense. As defined in the article, a COP requires unreasonable veneration of a current political leader enforced by the state, with accompanying close identification of the leader with the state and vice versa. By this definition, a COP would be almost impossible to initiate or sustain in a democratic country, US or otherwise. COP requires a totalitarianism that does not exist in democracies. Just because some bad things happen in the US (or the UK, etc.) does not mean all bad things happen here. Acknowledging that fact is not propanganda. 68.83.140.156 03:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)essex9999
That anyone would claim Bill Gates has a cult of personality suggests a severely limited understanding of the concept. We have an article about the concept of "celebrity" and it's not this one. That said, the article does seem to reflect some confusion between "cult of personality" and good old-fashioned strongman politics. Gazpacho 01:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Bill Gates is a personality revered in certain circles suchs the IT and Busines world. Many ficticious elements have been added to his personality and life history, such as that he started his software empire in a garage. This story of the garage wasn't true, but was added to provide inspiration and atract people into the IT world. He is a personality very revered in India, like a Gurú, like a God-tequendamia 22:29, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Gates has never once claimed that Microsoft was started in a garage, nor has any journalist. At least, not any journalist in the US or Europe. If a journalist in India misrepresents facts, that's poor journalism, not a cult of personality. Perhaps you're thinking of Apple, which claims to have started in a garage because it did. Gazpacho 00:38, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

My opinion about this article is that it is incomplete. It deals with the personality cult issue from the point of view of the Cold War, as something that could only happen in communist regimes. The reality is that cult of personality is as ancient as humankind. If this wan't the case people would not follow leaders, would have not had kings or monarchies, would have not had celebrities. Cult of personality is in reality the essence of social architecture, It'not bad as the article suggests. I has a good side because provides the majority of population with role models and role examples from which society can learn and receive inspiration. Think of Princess Diana as the inspiration she was for her followers, think of Elvis Presley, think of Madonna, think of JFK, or Lincoln. All these are cases of personality cult and inspirational role modelling. Some people wanted the sanctification of princess Diana, and today they are attempting the sanctification of John Paul II.-tequendamia 22:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The majority of the examples are not communists.
If you want the article to say that CoP is as old as mankind, and the essence of social architecture, you'll have to provide sources. The phrase doesn't seem to have been in widespread use before Stalin, although I've noted its basis in Marx's writings.
Look at Hitler; At the Nazis' height, people couldn't even say hello without giving praise to Hitler. Look at Niyazov. His statues and photographs are everywhere in Turkmenistan. His Ruhnama is in mosques next to the Koran. When children read in school, most of what they read is by or about Niyazov. He renamed January after himself and renamed bread to honor his mother. Your examples do not begin to compare. If you go into a Catholic church, you will see images of Jesus, not images of John Paul or Benedict. If you go to Microsoft headquarters (which I have), you will not see Bill Gates's portrait hanging in the managers' offices. (If anything, Gates has a cult of antipathy). So without sources, I just can't consider your objections credible. Gazpacho 22:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
We need a photo of Bush reading the petty goat to the kinder graden kids. That's very similar to Stalin's one on this article. Fox news footage could be used as proof of personality cult towards the image of George w. Bush.-tequendamia 04:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
We have a new Propaganda in the United States article, and I invite you to improve it. However, if you want to put such things in this article, at some point we'll need a source saying that such things constitute a cult of personality. I've done the POV check and made the changes I found appropriate. The next move is yours. Gazpacho 09:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Good arguments thusfar, but I'd like to chime in. Could modern examples of political campaigning--and most specifically of this administration, although I have no evidence they're the sole practitioners of it--methods such as henpicking who appears behind a government official during a public appearance, or planned shots such as aircraft carrier landings, or clearing brush, or to make matters even more confusing, any public appearance, be misconstrued as a building block of CoP? Has the practice of attempting to filter out protestors been committed solely by this administration? If it has, and we have proof, I would vote for an inclusion of what takes place in the U.S. in regards to that or at least open up the discussion. Is this image building or is it CoP bricklaying? Are we stuck in the age of "pro-Union/anti-prosperity" and "pro-freedom/anti-military" and the other verbal tennis games? I'm not signed in, but my name is oceanboy on here.66.108.114.0 07:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mao Example

"Mao Zedong of China: during the Cultural Revolution, all published works, including scientific papers, had a quote from Mao, always highlighted in boldface or red," seems kind of a lame example, it being the only one. That a personality cult does not make.

I am not so sure that Mao's was a personality cult. It was, at least to some extent, a charismatic authority. It's very controversial. --Ionius Mundus 00:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chavez

There is little tangible evidence that the Venezuelan political system encourages a cult of personality to the extent inferred here. --Zleitzen 15:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section needs removed

There are no sources provided for claiming any or all of these leaders have a cult of personality, though I do not personally dispute the characterization. I presented, months ago, a great deal of evidence based on the description of the article how Castro clearly fits the mold and provided a completely NPOV section saying how the matter is contested, and now any reference to Cuba has been completely excised in favor of the preferred targets of editors. This is inappropriate and is shoddy work. --TJive 04:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I assume you mean this. I don't think it's inappropriate, amid a POV/factual dispute, to review the examples with an eye to the original use of the term in its present-day sense. Claiming that Castro has established a cult merely by tenure seems like hand-waving; can you point to any specific ways he has promoted his own glorification? Gazpacho 23:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
And FYI, I have no "preferred targets." I'm just trying to avoid edit wars. Gazpacho

No, that is not at all what I mean. Some editors were contesting the idea that Castro deserved a mention, whatsoever, at this article, so I put in some effort to present the matter in a meaningful and balanced way. Because it actually deals with the issue in a serious manner rather than remaining a one-line original research observation with no references cited - for examples, see the current article - I was told it made the article "unbalanced" and, since then, the material was moved to Fidel Castro, where it was watered down and probably later deleted altogether, and any reference to Castro here has been KOS, while DirkvdM made a discussion fork so that other editors, when skimming the page, would accidentally skip over it and miss the fact that there was a discussion about this at all. --TJive 00:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I would tend to agree that this article does not need discussions at length of individual cults. The examples are brief because they are examples and people can follow the links for more information. I'll add references for the examples that remain. Gazpacho 23:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
This appears to be the same old Catch-22 that was applied in the first instance. If it's a small mention of Fidel Castro, there's not enough evidence; if evidence is provided, the section is unnecessarily long. --TJive 23:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
How about a paragraph rather than a line? By the way, I restored your material at the Castro article, after rearranging it to put the facts before the characterizations. Gazpacho 01:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

As per Tjive's comments - this whole section needs to go. Cult of personality strictly applied refers to Stalin and Mao and so on from the early days of communism - people speculating on whether others have such a cult is unhelpful. All major leaders have been described as having a cult of personality (check if you don't believe me). The reintroduction of Khomeini sums it up. The man was a religious leader for goodness sake. Tenuous examples of leaders with cult of personality include George Bush [4], Margaret Thatcher [5], Pope John Paul II [6] etc etc etc.--Zleitzen 12:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Khomeini was a religious leader? You have no clue. The Supreme Leader can dismiss the Iranian president at any time. In Iran, he isn't called supreme, but that is exactly what he is. (1) Khomeini impeached the first Iranian president Banisadr, (2) many speculate he ordered the assassination of Mohammad Ali Rajai, (3) ordered thousands of executions with shooting squads broadcast on television, and (4) abolished the Iranian Senate. He had total secular & religious power as does Ali Khamenei. Go to Iran, insult Khomeini or even Khamenei, and see whether you can ever return. Also, thousands lined up to kiss his hand; no one did this for Mao Zedong.--Patchouli 00:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
There are no sources provided whatsoever. Whatsmore, I can provide sources that associate many leaders with a "Cult of personality" (see above). You are essentially adding a name because you believe it to be the case based on your own experience and knowledge. The very basis of Original Research. Please acknowledge that this section does not meet Wikipedia criteria. By the way, please do not write to other editors "You have no clue" - it could be considered uncivil. Was Khomeini not a religious leader? (see comments by user below) --Zleitzen 00:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Have taken Castro out of the otherwise sourceless "examples section" and put him in the main body. Of the examples - he was the most interesting of the lot because the issue specifically referred to a "personality cult" and whether he has one or not, which is an important and relevant part of this article. The rest have no sources and no right as of yet to be on this page.--Zleitzen 03:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I think we should completely do away with the examples, as they are just too controversial. --Ionius Mundus 00:07, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ayatollah Khomeini and Ovadiah Yosef

Is there any real justification for listing these two here? Ovadiah Yosef was simply a Chief Rabbi, not a head of state and Khomeini, while oftened depicted on posters, did not foster a cult of personality arround himself. There's a difference between high religious authority and the type of adulation that is associated with a cult of personality. --لقمانLuqman 17:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell from the article about him, Yosef is a Pat Robertson figure. It's not accurate to claim that Robertson has a cult of personality, so it's probably not accurate for Yosef either. Gazpacho 17:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Ho Chi Minh

Hey, I just added Ho Chi Minh... he became a big figure, especially after his death... see if I am wrong at any part. Thanks. Maxpayne lhp 21:03, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

That's not a personality cult, it's charismatic authority. --Ionius Mundus 18:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for comment

How should this article convey this concept and phrase originally coined by Karl Marx. And should original research be used to show examples of this concept or should examples be strictly sourced from notable outlets.--Zleitzen 00:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The concept of a personality cult doesn't exist in a vacuum but is discussed in relation to particular leaders, so let's list and explain some of the prominent ones. Most of the statements in the examples section are either common knowledge or documented in the person's article, and I think PBS, KCNA, and VOA are sufficiently notable sources. However, the "characteristics" section has for some time struck me as just a lot of holding forth.
Also, I don't think it's original research to provide details about a leader that go directly to Krushchev's defining use of the term. Gazpacho 02:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but "common knowledge or documented in the person's article" is not good enough. Castro is the only leader whose sources refer directly to "cult of personality" - and ironically that is only of interest because he himself believes that he does not promote this. The grounds for inclusion are otherwise entirely original research. In contrast, I have verifiable sources stating that Margaret Thatcher, George Bush and Pope John Paul II have cultivated a "cult of personality" - should they be included and the other examples removed? Given that mine are sourced and the others are not. And the lack of monarchs, who are afforded the greatest "cult of personality" apparatus available renders this section moribund. I reiterate - the examples are unsourced and the list is compiled entirely from original research. It should be removed as unencyclopedic and counter productive to the page. --Zleitzen 10:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Whatsmore, the section begins "The following leaders are sometimes claimed to have a personality cult" - By whom? If that were the case, then where are the sources stating this? Providing sources is a basic tenet of wikipedia. We do not engage in the debate, we report the debate. So unless someone can come up with a source relating each leader specifically to a "cult of personality" then this section should not stand.--Zleitzen 10:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
(back again) The repsonses from other users above show that there are inherent problems with this page. Problems that are deepened by the vague examples section. For as long at that section remains - users will be having an unneccessary edit-war over who makes the cut and who doesn't. It merely encourages contentious editing. Remove it.--Zleitzen 18:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll find some sources regarding Kim Jong-Il and his father as having vast personality cults in the next day or two and I'll try to find a few sources regarding the other individuals commonly seen as paradigm examples of individuals who cultivated personality cults as a means of political power (namely Stalin and Mao). We shouldn't remove the whole examples section just because the debate over who should be cited is contentious. The concept of a personality cult is an important one within the field of political science and there are several individuals who are widely viewed as having them, most notably Kim Jong-Il. Rather than rid the page of these examples, we need to find a few sources on each. They exist, I've read quite a few papers on the topic; I just need a bit of time to find the sources. Anyone who has any should put them up asap. --The Way 03:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I shouldn't need to repeat this again but I will. Can people please provide a source for leaders linking them explicitly to "cult of personality". A dictator does not equal cult of personality. See Augusto Pinochet. it doesn't matter if it's Hitler or Mao.--Zleitzen 00:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PARADIGM examples only

I think we need to have only a few paradigm examples. Some of these examples are getting awfully sketchy and don't really fit all the criteria of personality cults. This concept is a well-defined one within political science, but there aren't really many individuals who have developed true ones. We need examples, but we don't need an exhaustive list so only those leaders who have clearly met the criteria should be included. I don't think religious leaders should be included at all as, despite their power, they themselves don't really cultivate a personality cult around them alone. Khomeini, for example, though seen as a great authority by his followers was not the source of a real personality cult, but a revolutionary... A personality cult, as far as political science is concerned, really only seems to occur in totalitarian/authoritarian/communist states where there is religious repression and where, therefore, there is a 'hole' left in people's spiritual lives that can be filled by the state. Personality cults are essentially political systems that revolve around a highly idealized individual who is the sole source of authority and is presented in greater-than-human if not godlike terms and which uses a vast amount of propaganda to inculcate such beliefs in the population of the nation subjected to the personality cult. There are really only a few paradigm examples: Stalin, Mao and Kim Sung-Il probably being the best historical ones.(Hitler may be a bit more controversial in this area, his ideology was perhaps more focused on this his particular person). Currently, Kim Jong-Il is pretty much, without a doubt, the best living example and he is probably followed by Saparmurat Niyazov. These examples are likely the most clear and best fit the criteria. Other individual, like Khomeini and Castro, are more contentious and may not fit all the criteria and should be left out, in my opinion.
Strictly speaking, Castro shouldn't be on this page at all despite what some American anarchist wrote in a paper. He is best applied to the Weber concept of "Charismatic authority", and is also just one of a long line of Latin American military figures. But I believe Tjive has been petitioning for Castro for over twelve months. The fact that Castro insists he doesn't promote a cult of personality is maybe worth mentioning as a contrast. But it still seems odd to see him next Kim Jong-Il. Anyway, like all lists on wikipedia - this list needs to be sourced to the nines. --Zleitzen 10:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm still confused. The Kims are personality cults, I don't disagree because it is fairly obvious even these days. Stalin was known for his rudeness and labeling him as a personality cult is not too questionable. Mao Zhedong, during the Cultural Reform, did make himself a personality cult, ok I do not object to that. But are Ho Chi Minh, Fidel Castro, or even George W. Bush or similar figures personality cults? I have heard nothing like "you have to praise him or be killed/jailed/harmed" about all of them. So here I can see three seperate degrees (concerning political figures only, celebrities don't count):

  • Personality cults made and enforced by the government which is thrusted down to people's throats, opposing ideas are not allowed or even punished.
  • Personality cults made by the government but people are only soaked in it, not forced into it, and they "voluntarily" accept it since that's the only thing they can hear, opposing ideas are not punished but heavily criticized, isolated and not accepted by the mass.
  • Hero worship won by or made by political figures for their certain achievements considered by the people or by some as the kinds of "liberator", "saviour", etc, maybe encouraged by the government but not made.

Any comment? Hawkie 15:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Apple? Nintendo? Fanboyism...

It seems to me that as political Cults of Personality have been eliminated (if they ever existed) in the USA, the strange techie trend of Fanboys has sprung up. Witness the hundreds of webpages and discussion forums dedicated to the near-worship of several brands. Apple comes to mind as the best example, but similar fan bases exist for Nintendo, Sony, Square-Enix and other brands. JonJ 15:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)JonJ

What does this have to do with the article? Please stick to the topic; article talk pages are not for idle conversation. --The Way 04:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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