Talk:Cult

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	describing the difference between marginal, peripheral, and core members as per Eileen Barker's article in Bromley's book Politics of religious apostasy describing daily life in cults (probably no generalization is possible) sources of conflict: 1. custody dispute in case of intentional community, and 2. distraught parents whose children are encouraged or demanded to get 100% involved at the expense of friends, career, education, and family "cult" also used for political and other secular organizations with uncritically accepted ideas, high levels of control of members' lives, and a charismatic founder, e.g. Lyndon LaRouche, Wilhelm Reich, Ayn Rand, Werner Erhart experience or observation of parnormal events for which a rational is hard to find, sometimes even by non-members during the cult's meeting. Examples DLM and SSB. Refereces Messer (in Barker's introduction to NRM), Galanter (in Len Oakes' book), John Hislop, Mick Brown Spiritual Tourist, chapter House of God Governments: Russia Law_on_Freedom_of_Conscience_and_Religious_Associations and Switzerland [1] (see talk page). show distinctions between a cult and a culture. Is a cult just a little culture? Is a cultish culture a cult too? Show distinctions and connections between cults and non-cults. 1) Content (eg one-true faith against many false faiths). 2) Methods (eg open vs closed, covert vs overt, facts/fictions, state vs sanction). 3) Context (where is the cult's/non-cults locus of control.)

Contents 1 Cult checklists 2 Contradicting definitions of "sect" and "cult" 3 Cults and literature 4 Cults in Literature 5 Scientology not a "doomsday cult" 6 Hare Krishnas 7 ABCDEF 8 Reflecting the academic literature accurately 9 That Hideous Strength 10 Barbara Harrison's Vision of Glory 11 References 12 Cult's in Literature 13 Who studies cults 14 Cults & NRM in literature 15 Merge from cult debate 16 Concise please, not verbose 17 "Cults and terrorism" section 18 Can a non-religious group be a cult? 19 Proposed split "Cults and NRMs in literature" - poll vote 20 Drive by edit watch 21 Definitions first and only then commments 22 "Snapping" 23 Deprogramming

[edit] Cult checklists

[edit] Contradicting definitions of "sect" and "cult"

The contradiction can be deduced by using the Raelian Movement as an example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect gives several definitions of what a sect is:

1) "sects claim to be authentic purged, refurbished version of the faith from which they split" and "sects have, in contrast to churches, a high degree of tension with the surrounding society", in this case, the Raelian Movement is not a sect, because only one, not both, of the criteria is met.

Result-

Sect (ex. Early Protestantism): No

2) sectarianism "a worldview that emphasizes the unique legitimacy of believers' creed and practices and that heightens tension with the larger society by engaging in boundary-maintaining practices.", so the Raelian Movement is sectarian in the sense that it possesses a trait shared by revolutionary movements such as the Civil Rights Movements of 19th and 20th century America.

Result-

Sectarian (ex. Martin Luther King, KKK, Skull and Bones, George Washington etc.): Yes

3) "A religious or political cult, by contrast, also has a high degree of tension with the surrounding society, but its beliefs are, within the context of that society, new and innovative." The Raelian Movement fits this. "Whereas the cult is able to enforce its norms and ideas against members" The Raelian Movement does not fit this since it lacks a true dictatorial leadership. As you can see, this definition is able to contradict itself in the case the Raelian Movement - making it an invalid definition. "a sect normally doesn't strictly have "members" with definite obligations, only followers, sympathisers, supporters or believers." This fits the Raelian Movement, as well as a plethora of apparently normal organizations which do not push their members to do exact things.

Result-

Cult (ex. Antique Mormon Polygamous sect, KKK, Nazism etc.): No

Sect (ex. Martin Luther King etc., Gandhi's Movement): Yes

4) "The English sociologist Roy Wallis[6] argues that a sect is characterized by “epistemological authoritarianism”: sects possess some authoritative locus for the legitimate attribution of heresy." This applies for the Raelian Movement, however, the Raelian Movement has no problem with any heresy as long as it does not violate the fundamentals, such as peace, love, and non-violence. "According to Wallis, “sects lay a claim to possess unique and privileged access to the truth or salvation" The Raelian Movement fits this, but salvation only in the case that the world "fails", though such a failure is something Raelians actively want to prevent - hence their disapproval of nuclear weapons and of war in general. "and “their committed adherents typically regard all those outside the confines of the collectivity as 'in error'”." The Raelian Movement does not fit this as they acknolwedge the greater actions of those who do not adhere to them to be nevertheless deserving of eternal life, perhaps more than they are individually (those people are given the title of Honorary Guide of the Raelian Movement, even if they have no idea of Raelians at all). Again we see the problem with using only one criteria to establish whether the Raelian Movement is a sect when more than one must be met. "He contrasts this with a cult that he described as characterized by “epistemological individualism” by which he means that “the cult has no clear locus of final authority beyond the individual member.”" In this case, Raelism fits, because the final authority is not Rael, but the individual, because Rael is not a dictator. Megachurches fit this as well, since Christian priests of this day and age are by no means dictators, and neither are guardians at Christian Retreats or teachers who "assign" activities to pupils. But the fact that one fits the criteria does not make one a cult. That is: If Z does A, and B does A, does that mean that Z is B? Not necessarily. It couldn't be objectively determined unless if it was assumed that only one (category of) thing did A. If this were the definition of cult, you would have the final say (only if you belonged to a cult); now isn't that preferrable than having someone else control you as in a sect per Roy Wallis definition? What a joke. ;)

Result-

Cult (ex. Libertarian): Yes

Sect (ex. Populist): No

Definitions 3 and 4 are in direct contradiction with each other. By accepting both definitions, it is harder to distinguish a cult from a sect. Do members of a cult need authority for a final word? #3 says yes, #4 says no. Does a sect have individuals with their own choice? #3 says yes, #4 says no. Most people would think that #3 is a better definition than #4. In both definitions, cults and sects are exculsive from each other (i.e. a cult cannot be a sect and a sect cannot be cult (an analogue to this is: red cannot be orange and orange cannot be red, but both are colors). There be some who would disagree with this and say that a cult is a type of sect (analogue: turquiose is a type of blue). As you can see, provided that there be a definition, or a set of non-contradicting definitions, of sect which can be agreed upon (which may not be the case), one must define the Raelian Movement before calling it a sect. Why not call it a sect? Sure, as long as it is stated what that label indicates exactly.Kmarinas86 05:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Can I ask that this discussion be moved from my user talk page to somewhere else? -- Antaeus Feldspar 06:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead - I don't know where to put it.Kmarinas86 07:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The above was taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Antaeus_Feldspar#Contradicting_definitions_of_.22sect.22_and_.22cult.22 Kmarinas86 01:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cults and literature

Someone removed an entire paragraph from the Cults and NRMs in Literature section on grounds that he or she thought it dealt with "two-bit" figures who are noteworthy only as cult leaders not as literary figures. This is curious, since the article is about cults and deals with literature only in relation to cults--and since I had explicitly stated that the role of the persons cited was a minor one in literature. Removing the paragraph was apparently an emotionally based act. If the person who did so is a former cult victim I can sympathize with his or her feelings, but the fact is that several purported cult leaders have produced noteworthy works either in genre or mainstream literature. For instance, no one could write an adequate article on the modern horror genre without paying attention to Hubbard's Fear (celebrated in a recent Johnnie Depp movie). Not all the writers listed in the paragraph have written anything that will last, and some who wrote significant things also wrote drek as well. But I stand by this paragraph as containing information of value for the study and understanding of cults and the persons who run them.--Dking (Dennis King), 12 August 2006.

[edit] Cults in Literature

In reviewing the article, I fail to understand the value of the large section regarding literature's view of cults. I think this could be an article in and of itself, but it certainly does not belong in an article that attempts to describe cults from both an academic and religious viewpoint. I am still perplexed that it was even written. I would like other thoughts as to why this section is of value. Storm Rider ^(talk) 08:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I propose to summarize it in this article and have the extensive treatment in a new separate article. Andries 18:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Someone suggested on this discussion page several months ago that the topics of cults and literature should be included in this article. I thought it was a good idea, so I responded. I fail to see anything perplexing and valueless about the topic, since many, many works of literature have been published about cults and a large percentage of so-called cult leaders are, among other things, writers. I think it should stay in this article for the time being. Storm Rider says it doesn't belong because the article is exclusively concerned with describing cults from "an academic and religious viewpoint." But whoever (besides Storm Rider) ever decided that these are the only two viewpoints that should be included? First, not all cults are religious, and second, not all information and analysis of cults comes from academia (if you restrict it to the latter, then all works by purported cult members defending their organizations, all works by ex-members or children who grew up in purported cults, and all other sources of nonacademic information could not be cited without first being filtered through professors of religious history who may or may not be qualified to do such vetting). I am not aware of any other topic of popular concern on wikipedia where such a restriction has been placed regarding which angles of approach to a topic can or cannot be used.--Dking (Dennis King), 8 Aug 2006.

[edit] Scientology not a "doomsday cult"

Scientology was recently added to the list of doomsday cults. I removed it, because there is no evidence that Scientology, an organization that has been around for over 50 years, has ever contemplated, planned or carried out mass suicides, terrorist acts, or anything remotely similar. When Scientology gets angry, it files a lawsuit. Perhaps the person who added this group to the list was confused by a poorly worded definition in which doomsday cults were vaguely described as groups that are a threat to the well being of their followers (a characterization that could be applied to just about any organization, whether cultic or mainstream, under certain circumstances). I changed "threat" to "extreme threat" and added "to the lives" (not just the wellbeing) of followers in hopes this will prevent further inappropriate additions to the list.--Dking (Dennis King), 26 Aug 2006.

[edit] Hare Krishnas

I restored the statement that one faction of the Hare Krishna movement (which opposes the claims to guru status made by leaders of various temples) has written with critical insight on the movement's history. To say that the entire movement manifests this type of critical thinking is not true, nor is it true that the Hare Krishna movement as a whole is "completely mainstream," which the previous editor maintained in explaining the edit.--28 Aug 2006

On what basis? Maybe it sounds better to you to say "faction of", but what is more mainstream than the ISKCON Communications Journal posted on ISKCON.Com?? We are talking ISKCON (International Society for Krsna Consciousness) here. It's ISKCON's own academic journal on ISKCON's own website! The ICJ was received and was openly available in every temple in North America and Europe. Give some credible reference for your artificial “faction of” spin. Plausible sounding to your ear doesn't cut it.

There are several links to register yourself on WikiPedia. I can point them out if you are having trouble figuring it out. Jiva Goswami 05:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ABCDEF

Anyone think this might be of some value?

[edit] Reflecting the academic literature accurately

10 years ago I did almost all the work necessary to write an academic research paper on cults and brainwashing, but it got pushed to the back burner, and at this point I would have to update it to get it published. Perhaps things have changed in the last 10 years, but what I found certainly bears on the references in this article that are more than 10 years old, which is most of them.

I expected to find two sides, both having studied cults thoroughly to support their views, both with substantial empirical evidence to back up their arguments either supporting or opposing the brainwashing / mind control theories as applied to cults. After a comprehensive review, what I found surprised me. There were indeed two sides, both with strong claims (though the anti-cult claims were far more strident). Ironically, empirical studies of cults by supporters of brainwashing / mind control theories were scant. There were a few clinical case-studies and a few small research studies, both kinds more typically than not with significant methodological problems. Most of the theories out there regarding brainwashing or mind control, hadn't, at least at that time, been connected empirically to cults, but were applied to cults speculatively.

By contrast, researchers who were not convinced by brainwashing / mind control theories (most typically sociologists of religion) were the ones who had done large, high-quality, empirical studies, and concluded as a result that the brainwashing / mind control theories didn't fit. The fact that some of these researchers who were very neutral are now called cult apologists is amusing.

Many in the brainwashing camp seemed to have the cart before the horse: convinced of the brainwashing / mind control theories, they went looking for evidence. Of course, some of them were dedicated anti-cultists, which is not the most conducive starting point for scientific research. The large, high-quality, empirical studies were published in respected, peer-reviewed journals. Many of the cult brainwashing studies were published in lower-quality journals such as the Cultic Studies Journal, which has a strong anti-cult bias, and since my university library (the largest in the state) did not subscribe, I had to get it through inter-library loan.

I realize this is a controversial topic on which NPOV is difficult, but it seems to me that the strongest bias that remains in this article is on the anti-cult side. When I got to the Cult#Study_of_cults section I felt some responsibility to do some editing. Anti-cultists should realize that when they go overboard, they allow their adversaries to cry foul. They would accomplish their goals better by resisting the temptation to give weight to low-grade social science and exaggerated claims, and let accurate descriptions speak for themselves. -DoctorW 03:31, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

===As someone who has labored over the past year to make this article more even-handed and to give so-called cults the benefit of the doubt, I don't agree with DoctorW's criticisms. Indeed, his use of demeaning terms such as "brainwashing camp" and "dedicated anti-cultists" to refer to those he disagrees with make one question the scientific objectivity he professes. He suggests that "sociologists of religion" and "large, high-quality empirical studies" have found that cult members are basically free agents. But taking Potemkin Village tours of cult communities or conducting opinion polls of cult members doesn't really establish anything. One weakness is that the professors who give cults a clean bill of health don't know how to follow the money trail and thus miss the main point in many (but not all) so-called cults--that they are money-machines for the organization's leadership. The posture of so-called neutrality indeed prohibits some scholars from even daring to ask the key questions of where does the money come from and where, or to whom, does it go? Also, this posture prohibits them from listening, really listening, to what disaffected cult members have to say. Thousands of such people have come forward over the years with accounts that are very different from each other in detail but in their broad outlines suggest that the same general principles of psychological manipulation, "mind control," and economic and/or other forms of exploitation are operative within so-called cults. Are these witnesses merely making it all up? Why is it that journalists and law enforcement are so often able to verify the charges? Why is it that cults almost never win libel suits against their critics? Why is it that so many cult leaders and their disciples have ended up in jail or been forced to flee the country to avoid prosecution? -- dking (Dennis King), 28 July 2006. P.S. The leading figure in DoctorW's camp is J. Gordon Melton, who is not a "sociologist" but rather has a Ph.D. in the History and Literature of Religions. Many others in that camp are also religious scholars rather than social scientists. I point this out not to suggest that their work is illegitimate but merely to take issue with DoctorW's false dichotomy of social scientists versus other students of cults.

===In the above comments I put the term "mind control" in quotes because I, like DoctorW, believe it is an unsatisfactory term as used in common discourse about cults. It simplistically lumps together processes of indoctrination-education, social conformity, inner-group patronage, organizational discipline, and the attractiveness of the theology or ideology of the particular group, and suggests that the indoctrination process is always the central thing. Since it is used only in reference to cults, it obscures the fact that the same processes go on in mainstream organizations. This makes it more difficult to focus on comparing how the processes work in cults and mainstream organizations, which might help us discern better what is unique about cults and other high-commitment sects. The thinking of people in such groups is undoubtedly focussed and directed to a higher degree than in most mainstream groups, but this wouldn't last very long without the surrounding social and organizational milieu and (in some cases) the prestige of a living or deceased founder and his or her teachings.--Dking (Dennis King)--1 August 2006

Notice what Dking has said above. He claims to be "even-handed". He immediately launches into an attack on my use of phrases such as "brainwashing camp" and "dedicated anti-cultists", which he says are "demeaning terms". It is obvious to anyone who actually reviewed the literature (at least at the time I did) that those who believe in brainwashing have "taken sides" - separated themselves into a "camp" if you will, and that the most prolific authors on that "side" are dedicated to their anti-cult efforts. It's hard to believe that any knowledgeable person would take issue with the fact that, for example, Michael Langone is not anti-cult or that he is not dedicated to arguing for that position. Certainly there are anti-cult authors who are good social scientists and take a strictly objective approach to the best of their ability, but these were few among those who published articles and books applying the brainwashing model to cults (at the time I reveiwed the literature).

But lets suppose Dking is right and that putting people in "camps" is "demeaning". We want the article to reflect objective reality, right? Dking goes on to rant against sociologists of religion and their "posture of so-called neutrality" (which, inexplicably, "prohibits them from listening, really listening, to what disaffected cult members have to say"). He dismisses the "large, high-quality empirical studies" as "Potemkin Village tours". Then he puts me in their "camp"!

Apparently, J. Gordon Melton is the "leader" of my "camp". Now I'm guessing he qualifies as the leader because he made such a collosal mistake in defending the Aum Shinrikyo cult (which I learned about here on Wikipedia), making him an easy target for anti-cultists. I do remember his name from my research, and I am familiar with his massive and unparalleled Encyclopedia of American Religions, but otherwise I don't remember any religion professors who did large empirical studies. But apparently, sociologists of religion are the minority in "my camp".DoctorW 18:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it is not demeaning to identify people as being part of a "camp" (or "school of thought" or "movement"). I was criticized several months ago by an ANTI-cult editor on this article who objected to my affirming the existence and influence of an international "anti-cult" movement (I did so to make the point that it is unfair to regard cults as paranoid simply because they regard themselves as being the target of opponents). But it depends on the language you use. To call the anti-cult movement the "brainwashing camp" IS demeaning, since by DoctorW's own admission many social scientists who are strongly critical of cults do not use a model descended from the old brainwashing model. Furthermore, most anti-cult activists and therapists no longer use the term "brainwashing." As I pointed out above I believe the term "mind control" (which is NOT the same thing as brainwashing) is also an oversimplification even though the result of life in a high commitment group may be that one's life and thinking is tightly controlled by the group's leadership whether or not the group is a cult.

I did not go on a "rant" against "sociologists of religion"; I pointed out the FACT that the camp among academics that is sympathetic to cults does not follow the money trail and does not take seriously the complaints of ex-cult members. As to Potemkin Villages, any sociologist who goes to study a cult without inquiring about where the money comes from and where it goes is basically taking a Potemkin Village tour whether the cult itself intends it or not. (And let me say I think there are many new religious movements and small religious or political sects that would be more than happy to show their books to outsiders--these groups have nothing to hide. What concerns me are the hard-core organizations led by sociopathic or extreme-narcissist personalities that DO function as racketeering enterprises.)

Finally, I did not say Melton was the "leader" of DoctorW's camp but the "leading figure." I meant leading figure in an academic sense among those in all fields of scholarly or social scientific study who tend to be sympathetic to cults. This has nothing to with his position on the sarin gas cult. It has to do with the status of his encyclopedia and other writings (which on explicating the doctrines of cults are really quite good) and the fact that he is by far the best known figure in his "camp."--Dking6 October 2006 P.S. For the record, I did not claim that I was "even-handed" but merely that I have tried to make this article "more even-handed."--Dking 03:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree with Dking's assessment of Melton's work. Melton's descriptions of beliefs and practices of religious groups are generally quite good, but his blunder regarding Aum Shinrikyo is symptomatic for his flawed methodoloy: he seems to assume that apostates in general are unreliable and that cults suffer from unfair and exaggerated persecution, while not doing the case by case research on claims regarding individual groups. On the other hand, he claims that he has studied the accusations regarding Ramtha extensively, but he does not explain in detail how he has refuted them, so I find it unconvincing. He does however describe that the generalizations/prejudices regarding his methodology. On the other hand, I do not deny of course, that untrue accusation and unfair persecution does exist, esp. in the 1970s and 1980s and again esp. in the USA. But it seems that Melton's current research generalizes too much from that time and from the USA. Andries 10:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Your opinion or my opinion of Melton are of no consequence to this article. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:17, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] That Hideous Strength

Kudos to whoever put this novel into the Cults and Literature section! I have changed the reference to NICE being a "Satanic cult" since whatever hints of Satan that exist in the novel are somewhat indirect and mixed with elaborate science-fantasy and neo-Platonist conceptions. In my own brief elaboration of the paragraph I don't attempt to deal with these supernatural elements, since these are dealt with in the wikipedia article on Lewis' book. However, someone might want to add a phrase about the fallen creatures from another planet for the sake of accuracy.--Dking (Dennis King), 7 October 2006

In Wikipedia we do not add our own opinions or our own reviews of books. We can only include material in articles if that material was published by a reliable source. See [WP:RS]]. Unless a reliable source is found in which a review of these books is presented, that material will be mercilessly deleted. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not a review. I was correcting the impression that That Hideous Strength (THS) was part of the Satanic cult subgenre. It is obvious from the text of the book that NICE is presented as something other than a conventional Satanic cult. That it embodies Lewis' concept of the "inner ring" is well known and I will provide a citation on this. I will look for a citation on the wife also; it would be good to keep this since THS really does represent a break with the convention of the helpless woman being rescued as in Riders of the Purple Sage. Please lower the tone of your talk about merciless deletions. This article discussion page has been relatively free of that type of hostile atmosphere for a long time now, and I hope we don't go back to it.--Dking, 7 Oct. 2006

"Mercilessly deleted" is not hostile. Read the note at the bottom of this page. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:20, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barbara Harrison's Vision of Glory

I restored the sentence about this classic book that was removed without explanation (along with another mention of the Watchtower Society) apparently by a member of the society. I doubt this was done as part of any policy, since it is not this organization's style to get involved in fights with outsiders. Neither of the sentences deleted could be regarded as attacks on the beliefs or practices of the JWs; they were statements of fact made in the context of larger points unrelated specifically to the JWs. Harrison's book was cited as an example of how persons raised in purported cults have contributed to the public debate on this subject. To think that the JWs can't be mentioned in the context of the debate over cults is absurd, since they have been a primary target of the Christian countercult movement (an important element in this debate) for almost half a century, and the largest and most vocal ex-member (or "apostate") support movement in the United States is that of ex-Watchtower Society people who have generated a large body of writings regarding both personal experiences and theology/Bible interpretation. The critics of the Watchtower Society may be right, may be wrong, or may be exaggerating, but you can't pretend they don't exist.--Dking (Dennis King), 7 October 2006

You may need to become familiar with our content policies of WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:NOR. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:14, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I am unsure what you mean. The citation of Harrison in the cult article is surely not a POV issue. It was restoration of a factual example that had been removed without explanation. As to what I said in the paragraph above, that is for discussion only--and yet even there I don't see anything that would raise a POV issue.--Dking, 7 October 2006

Please sign with four tildes: ~~~~ This will autimatically add a time stamp and a link to your userpage. It would be best if you register for a username, if you intend to contribute in an ongoing fashion. Taking time to learn the content policies will avoid a lot of back and forth and make your edits better. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

And yes, material that is added to this or any other article, that is just the editor's opinion, or an editor's review of a book, an essay, editolriazing, comment, or any other type of similar original research, will be deleted from the article, if no supporting sources are forthcoming. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:25, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I am referring specifcally to these sections tagged as lacking references, in particular the whole section "Cults and NRMs in literature". Unless sources are provided within a few days, that text will be moved to the talk page, and when sources found for that material, it can be then put back. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

What's with the in-text references in this article? You click them, and they don't take you to the reference list. The numbering is also messed-up. BenC7 04:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cult's in Literature

Should someone add Lovecraftian cults to this? I've also heard of a real cult based of his writings. BanditmanEXE

Great idea. Gothicus cultus. Go for it.--Dking 23:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who studies cults

DoctorW was right that this section was a bit of a mess, and did a good job of cleaning out some sloppy formulations. In doing so, he/she tended to overuse the term "anti-cult" (it should be obvious from the Journal of Cultic Studies name which side of the debate it's on) and I tried to use some more varied phrasing where necessary to make the same point. DoctorW's cleanup also revealed that the nonacademic literature on cults had not been accurately described and I took a stab at fixing this. Obviously footnotes are needed. However, I invite DoctorW to first go back over it once again. Sometimes it takes several runs of the steamroller to get a road or a tennis court into proper shape.--Dking 00:54, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cults & NRM in literature

This seems to be a growing phenomena in WIKI articles; editors who feel there is some value to summarize the way literature or TV portrays individuals, groups, or organizations. I find the whole section unworthy of the article. How on earth does Twain's opinion have any value to an academic article? Zane Grey? Please give me respite. These people are not specialists in the field, rather they are the equivalent of reading "People" magazine or "The National Enquirer" regarding world events. Would it be possible to simply delete the whole section? Storm Rider ^(talk) 07:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

It certainly takes too much space in this article, but also in the article Jonestown. May be it can all be moved to Cults and new religious movements in fiction, art and popular culture. Andries 16:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I am inclined to trust Andries opinion on this, especially since moving the article will make it possible for people to add stuff about how cults are treated in film, TV, etc. However, I think the title should be "Cults and new religious movements in literature..." (not just fiction) because the treatment includes or could include references to purported cult leaders who are poets, travel writers, pamphleteers, religious tract writers, popular theorists on a number of subjects, and writers of visionary works such as the Book of Mormon. All of these things are regarded by literary historians as a part of "literature" (see for instance Parrington's Main Currents in American Thought). As to Storm Rider, he persists in his view that the only people whose views should be expressed are religious scholars. Mark Twain, the greatest of American writers, doesn't have anything worthwhile to say? Dostoevsky, author of The Possessed (about a political cult)? C.S. Lewis? Storm Rider is not only being ridiculous, but also hypocritical. Click on his Wiki site and you'll see a quote from C.S. Lewis on faith. Lewis can be quoted on faith but not on an issue of comparative religious scholarship?--Dking 21:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Dking, I had a stronger reaction to Zane Grey being listed. I did not cite the others you cited above, except for Twain. The two I cited are not specialists, which you would have to admit. Is there value in citing the opinions of great individuals outside of their expertise? I fall on the side of, thanks for sharing but I would prefer to hear from someone who has studied the field. I don't have a preference regarding their religious background as you seem to imply. Much of this borders on violating the guidelines against WP:Cruft.

Also, Dking, I don't recall interacting with you much. I am puzzeled by the personal attacks you have made. Frankly, you do not have a clue who I am or my full range of interests or my expertise. I will caution you to use good faith in your dealings with other editors. Storm Rider ^(talk) 00:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's be clear. I never presented Zane Grey as an expert on cults. I presented his book as an example of popular literature about cults. Since it is one of the great bestsellers of American fiction, surely one could not say that it was insignificant in molding public opinion on the Mormons, who were regarded in earlier decades in much the same way as today's cults are. (And surely, by any reasonable standard the study of public opinion regarding and public reaction to cults should be part of an encyclopedia article on cults.) I thought that I was very careful to make clear that Grey and Conan Doyle's novels with Mormon villains should not be taken too seriously as a reflection of Mormon reality then or now. (The transformation of the heroine's psychology is of interest, but chiefly in a generic sense common to many people who break with cultic and other intense religious backgrounds.) Perhaps the section should be reorganized to present the work of "serious" writers such as Lewis, Dostoevsky, Cather and Twain in one spot and popular fiction writers (such as Grey and A.E.W. Mason) in another. I'd be happy to do this once the cults and literature topic finds its final home.--Dking 03:10, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

D, I have a particular dislike of articles having todays's media viewpoint mentioned. An example would be some of the cartoon shows (for adults) that have commented on society or church groups. I think that hypersensitivity jaded my comment. I was not aware of who wrote the section or had edited it recently. None of my comments should be construed as a personal affront to you or anyone else. But, to be truthful, I still would be uncomfortable with its inclusion in this article. I wonder if there is enough to make a separate article? Regardless, it is not such a significant issue that I will do more than just mention here. If others, a majority, feel similarly additional editing could be done. Cheers. Storm Rider ^(talk) 17:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with you that coverage of cartoons on cults would be descending into trivia unless done from a psychohistorical perspective to show how fear of cults reflects underlying mass anxieties (but that would not be eligible for inclusion here since psychohistorians who study cartoons and similar pop-culture items have not published on public reaction to cults). My apologies if I offended you in any way. I agree that all this Cult-urkampf be placed in a separate article as per Andries's suggestion.--Dking 19:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from cult debate

Jossi, merge unreferenced contents from the article cult debate into this article. I see no merit in adding more unreferenced biased contents to this article and I will delete all of this. References had already been requested long ago at cult debate and talk:cult debate to no avail. Andries 19:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The version befor the merge can be seen here [2] In many cases the article makes conclusions and voices opinions not supported by the mentioned sources. Andries 19:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I basically support Jossi's request for more references, though it can be argued whether cults in literature and popular culture need rigorous referencing. Rigorous referencing for such sections or articles is not common in Wikipedia and only rarely demanded. Andries 20:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Most of the text you deleted fro the "Cult debate" section is sourced. If there is material that is not sourced, please add {{fact}} to these, rather than massively delete the whole thing. Please respect the work of others. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

untrue, hardly anything is sourced, and you had weeks to give references after I and others had requested you this. Andries 04:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The citations for some of the text that you re-inserted are flawed because out-of-context i.e. they do not make a connection with the subject at hand i.e. the cult debate/cult wars. E.g. the citation for the Red Menace makes no connection with the cult wars. Andries 09:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concise please, not verbose

Why is the section sociological defintion so verbose? It explains everything two three times as if the readers are stupid. This is an encyclopedia so information should be concise. Andries 09:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Cults and terrorism" section

I'm a little uncomfortable with the small section "Cults and terrorism". It seems to embody a POV that implicitly claims there is a significant and systematic correlation between the two. As such it may be original research by stealth. I think I would likewise be uncomfortable with a section in the articles on American football or the NBA like "players and assault charges", "players and rape", or "players and criminal activity". Yes, there have been players in these three categories. But does it belong in an encyclopedia article? -DoctorW 06:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

There are currently about 13,900 Google hits for "terrorist cult". The correlation between the two words is certainly significant. My view is that the section should be named "Destructive cults", to parallel with the article of that name. While Aum Shinrikyo was clearly engaged in terrorism, Peoples Temple was not, but both were destructive.

Your analogy seems unhelpful to your position. There are 710 Google hits for the phrase (NFL stands for) "National Felons League". Since this is a recurring issue in the sports media after every new indictment, it does belong in an encyclopedia though their fans' power may prevent it. Milo 10:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a difficult issue. First, as the article clearly presents, the term cult has a very fluid definition depending upon the purpose of the user. Many groups are identified as a cult, yet there are significant dissimilarities among them. Second, the mere presence of the section may lead a reader to assume that all cults spawn terrorism. However, that seems like we are stretching our concerns or fears too far. In reality, I think it is appropriate to identify that some groups, identified as cults, have done some horrific things. If the article already does not appropriately delinate between dangerous cults and others, then it should. For example, the term cults as used by one religious group against another has nothing to do with a group identified as a cult similar to those mentioned in the article. Religion has nothing to do with the label, but the behavior and objectives of some of the followers comes to define it. I am not sure I am clearly stating my position; I think it should stay, but only with a clear statement of the difference of dangerous cults versus all the others. Storm Rider ^(talk) 08:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the most appropriate place for this material is in the section "Cults: genuine concerns and exaggerations" (where the difference between a small number of violence-prone cults and the overwhelming majority of purported cults and new religious movements has already been established strongly) rather than in a separate section.--Dking 21:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• "the term cult has a very fluid definition" Respectfully, I suggest that is an oft-repeated myth, possibly started by clever cult leaders seeking to avoid judgment. The term cult has a limited number of well-understood meanings, and all are well-documented. The problem (according to OCRT) is that most people only know one of those meanings. On hearing unfamiliar usages people may doubt the word's multiple specificity rather than their own lack of knowledge.
• "a clear statement of the difference of dangerous cults versus all the others" The reader's need for delineation that Storm Rider mentions can be alleviated by using three objective cult categories, rather than the two typically mentioned, plus education about beneficial and trouble-free cults:
The main category is "Groups referred to as cults" by reliable sources. Subcategories are:

1. Destructive groups referred to as cults
   
2. Legally entangled groups referred to as cults
   
3. Other groups and practices referred to as cults
   

"Destructive" (cults) is currently accepted Wikipedia usage. "Legally entangled groups" is an objective reporting standard, meaning reliable source reports about groups referred to as cults, who have also become legally entangled with police actions, administrative orders/sanctions, or civil suits. When groups become involved with the law, they become subject to journalism, and that includes how their neighbors refer to them if relevant to the case. "Other groups" is all the rest that reliable sources called a cult including beneficial cults (AA), the thousands of trouble-free local cults, old devotional cults, and fan-cults of popular culture. Milo 10:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I've just restored the consensus version that User:TalkAbout reverted, apparently dishonestly calling it a minor edit and offering no comment whatsoever. Furthermore, the sections and sub-sections he left in the wake of his edits made no sense. -DoctorW 23:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

DoctorW,

Hi Doc, I don’t believe I was being dishonest as to what I did:

• My edits http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cult&diff=85380943&oldid=85360318

• Your edits http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cult&diff=prev&oldid=85320053

I did research the links to the sections which improved them and do believe there should be some distinction between Documented crimes and Cults and terrorism. The distinction being that while one (documented crimes) commits crimes on the group, the other being a group (cult) commits crimes against society at large beyond the group. That was my reasoning once I researched it and found all the links, the training modules etc. So, please revert me, but do not call me dishonest "(DoctorW (Talk | contribs) (Restoring consensus version that User:TalkAbout reverted, apparently dishonestly calling it a minor edit and offering no comment whatsoever.)"as that was not the intent. So, now that I have brought forth the issue can we discuss it further. PEACETalkAbout 02:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't imagine what the reason might have been that you called your edit minor, and didn't dicuss it on the talk page or even mention anything in the edit summary. Perhaps I was too harsh to say calling it minor was apparently dishonest; I'm sorry.

If you read the section carefully, you'll see that your distinction doesn't hold. Also, the distinction seems unimportant. Also, the consensus (unanimous if I remember correctly) was to put these two items in the "documented crimes" section. -DoctorW 07:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can a non-religious group be a cult?

DoctorW stated in an edit summary that "broadening the unwieldy category" of the cult to "include non-religious cults is anti-cult POV not accepted by academics." This is not true. Dennis Tourish, Janja Lalich and Alexandra Stein have all written extensively on political cults. The late Murray Rothbart wrote on the secular Ayn Rand cult. Michael Langone in a recent book predicted a burgeoning of political cults. Colin Rubinstein has used the term in reference to Lyndon LaRouche. Historians Harvey Klehr and Ron Radosh have also used the term. It is widely acknowledged by students of Latin American affairs that the Shining Path guerrillas were a political cult. The International Cultic Studies Association has sponsored numerous presentations over the years on a variety of non-religious cults.

In addition, I dispute the idea that the only people whose opinions count in defining and classifying cults are academics. The reality of secular cults has been hammered home by think tank researchers and journalists as well as academics. The ADL published reports on the LaRouche and Newman organizations in the 1980s and 1990s, describing them as political cults. Chip Berlet, senior researcher at Political Research Associates, has written a number of studies on political cults that have had wide influence. Furthermore, scores if not hundreds of former members of political, psychotherapy, marketing and secular human potential cults--from the "Fourth Wall" therapy collective through Werner Erhart's est--have described their former organizational homes in these terms and have backed up their statements with detailed descriptions.--Dking 02:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Forgive me for not spelling out what I meant more fully in an edit summary. Perhaps I should have said "not generally accepted by academics" or "not generally accepted by academics who actually study these groups" or "not generally accepted by academics who actually study these groups using strong methodological approaches and proper scientific controls". Most of them seem to think that the term "new religious movement" has some advantages over the term "cult", and further broadening "cult" to include non-religious cults is something that most of them seem to think makes an unweildy concept even more unweildy. Nevertheless, I personally think that the apparently anti-cult POV that certain political groups fit as well within the cult rubric as religious groups is a valuable addition to the article and should be kept. I don't know what the origin of the idea is, but I seem to have only heard it from anti-cultists. That made me wonder whether it wouldn't be more honest to mention that it is anti-cult ideology rather than an academic theory developed through a normal scientific process including impartiality. Perhaps it could even (if appropriate) be presented as a theory developed by anti-cult academics (with proper citation). I just think presenting it as an idea, framework, theory, heuristic, or something similar, is preferable to implying that it is a fact.

I never said or implied that "the only people whose opinions count in defining and classifying cults are academics". Academics are imperfect too, but I think most people probably trust the judgement and conclusions of an academic who says he's trying to be impartial more than an anti-cultist (even an academic one), or perhaps even more than a journalist who has less formal training in methods that attempt to lead to objective conclusions and who may have more contextual pressure to "sell" the story by presenting it in a way that's more interesting than strict objectivity would recommend. But - of course - these people make valuable contributions to the discussion and their points of view should be included. -DoctorW 20:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed split "Cults and NRMs in literature" - poll vote

It has been proposed that the section "Cults and NRMs in literature" be moved to a new article, possibly named "Cults and new religious movements in literature, art, and popular culture". The Cult article is 3 times as long as Wikipedia recommends. This large section very naturally stands on its own as a separate article. I support the split, and apparently two others have expressed support above, with no dissenting reasons given yet. -DoctorW 21:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Y I support the split and agree with your reasoning for it. • However, the proposed article title is too long and partly OT. This article Cult is about cults, with all the baggage that word carries, so "Cult references in creative and popular culture" is a better title to retain parallel topic identification with the main article. "NRM" is a valid academic term, but has been rejected by the English-speaking public as a drop-in replacement for "cult", and thus is irrelevant in terms of art, literature, and popular culture. For evidence, see the reliable source embedded quotations by the late Jeffrey K. Hadden and Michael York at 'New Religious Movements' and other Euphemism'. • Adding "references" is a strong NPOV defense against AfD. Milo 01:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest "Cults in Literature and Popular Culture". First, because most of the article is about literature. Second, because "popular and creative culture" poses a confusing dichotomy. As to the term "references," this is misleading because much of the article deals with the writings of purported cult leaders and NRM founders, their followers and ex-followers--surely the term "references" is not appropriate to describe such writings which do not simply "refer" to purported specific cults but are focussed on describing them or explicating their beliefs. As to dropping the reference to NRMs in the title, I support this for the sake of brevity.--Dking 18:21, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you are using "refer/references" in a slightly different sense than that of the major debate at List of groups referred to as cults. But for now, I don't think it matters enough to parse out. As a practical matter, there's only one paragraph in the section Cults in literature and popular culture (now article) mentioning a couple of groups over which an AfD might be launched. Milo 02:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead because there was consensus to split this article and because I think the split was quite urgent because the article was now quite unbalanced. Cults in literature and popular culture. Name change can be discused there too and should be done with the move button, not with just copying and pasting. Andries 18:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I support Dking's proposed version of the title, both leaving out "art" and leaving out "new religious movements"; the brief title is better. I also support retaining the phrase "new religious movements" in bold in the first line of the new article, as is now the case. -DoctorW 21:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the move to split the article but would like to keep the title "Cults and NRMs in literature". Once the split is done perhaps we can open discussions further. Regards,TalkAbout01:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drive by edit watch

24.164.10.245 has added The Family to #Docmented crimes. The Family doesn't seem to belong listed among the destructive cults. The Family article mentions old physical and sex abuse accusations, and reforms, but no convictions or recent accusations against current members. The recent murder mentioned is alleged committed by a significant ex-member, and at worst seems a case of 'was driven nuts by abuse long ago'.
Note that 24.164.10.245 has a history of vandalism, though maybe this is just a poorly researched edit.
More to the point, aren't any well-informed Cult regulars keeping an eye on the quality of IP and other drive-by edits?
OTOH, maybe the regulars are busy in the real world. Yesterday was a very big USA election, and possibly as a result at least one regional email network is down due the volume. Milo 04:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not monitor the edits of anons anymore. Andries 17:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definitions first and only then commments

Every article should start with definitions. And only then should comments be made of the definitions for which there is even a separate section. Jossi's recents edits in that respect were wrong. Let us also try to be concise and assume that the reader is intelligent. Andries 17:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Andries, when you removed the following paragraph, Jossi reverted it, and you put {{fact}} "[citation needed]" tags, I agreed with both jossi's revert and your request for citations. However, I'm concerned that the sentences then disappeared again replaced by language that obscures the very clear point that was made. I'm copying it here so its rhetoric won't get lost.

• "This definition of "cult" is rather different from the popular definition, or the definitions used in other academic disciplines (e.g. the definition of cults as harmful groups adopted by many psychologists). ^{[citation needed]} It excludes any consideration of harm, manipulation, deceit or exploitation from what constitutes a cult - by this definition, a cult may be harmless, and a group that is not a cult may be very harmful. ^{[citation needed]} "
  

Your edit summary reason for removing it, IIRC, was a statement promoting the intelligence of readers. Intelligence not the reader's issue, it's a specific lack of education, which is real, non-trivial, and goes to the heart of ongoing disputes about Wikipedia cult articles. I haven't read it recently, but I think the {{fact}} cites that you want can be found at OCRT's web site (a reliable source).

OCRT made the point that most people only learn one definition of "cult". (I'd add that's probably due to the normal competitive biases of being raised in a major religion.) When intelligent and otherwise educated readers/editors encounter not one but several other well-understood definitions, they then start to think (and have claimed in writing) that "cult" is too vague to mean anything, or "cult" means whatever one wants it to mean. Those are mere notions that mandate compensatory education by this article.

I insist on clear definitions and definitional explanations, because to do otherwise will ultimately submerge the article into the agendas of both major religions and those NRMs referred to as cults.

I want to put these well-phrased sentences back in, but first let's discuss your detailed objections to them. Milo 22:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I find such verbose redundant remarks an insult to the readers, because these remarks assumes that the readers are stupid. Why not write, this definition excludes theological considerations, considerations of harm, considerations etc. , because that is implicit in a definition. If a definition does not mention harm then any intelligent reader will understand that this definition has nothing to do with harm. Also I disagree that OCRT is a reliable source. If I write that a definition of a church is a building for Christian worship then I do have to write that this excludes consideration of the building material. Andries 22:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Following the same way of reasoning we should not write in the Christian countercult section, this definition excludes considerations about tension with the rest of society. Can you see how silly it would sound it if we write that there? Andries 22:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

"If a definition does not mention harm then any intelligent reader will understand that this definition has nothing to do with harm." This article teaches not only new facts but also new attitudes. New attitudes are the most difficult to teach compared to teaching facts or skills. To make matters more difficult in this case, an encyclopedia article is written for most people, and I think most people who read Cult aren't like you. I'd say your viewpoint is something akin to "ivory tower syndrome". • Children of the global public are raised to believe that "cults" are harmful, manipulative, deceitful, exploitative, sponging, borderline crazy, and just maybe homicidal. People carry these notions into educated adulthood mostly as suspicions that are hard to dispel with mere words. The two sentences deleted are specifically formulated attempt to disabuse educated adults of their ingrained and unspoken assumptions. As corrective ideas, they have to be repeated many times in various ways to have a useful effect. You don't like this because you are very intelligent with a young, sharp memory, and you instantly remember something the first time it is mentioned. Thus you believe that your intelligence is being insulted if something is repeated. Also, religion articles attract a lot of older people with learning memories that are slower than yours. • If you can't adjust your editing attitude toward your expected readership, and not take personally the pedagogy necessary for most readers, it would be best if you would edit controversial art and music articles — editing and debating them will thoroughly challenge your intelligence, and you may find more people like yourself. Milo 08:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I always assumed that an encyclopedia should be concise and should be based on the assumption that its readers are intelligent. Of course popular untruths should be treated, but the proposed sentences that I removed are more or less also treated with the words by Timothy Miller. No need to repeat, and repeat in violation of the Wikipedia guideline that an article should start with definition(-s). Andries 09:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Snapping"

I reworded the sentence about Conway and Siegelman, authors of "Snapping." As previously worded it was too much a POV attack. The fact that they are listed as journalists rather than psychologists, and that their work is described in the reworded sentence as speculative, gets across what is important in the previous editor's formulation. There is no need to state that they are not scientists when they made no claim to be scientists. What they did do was to pull together and systematize a lot of observations by exit counsellors, deprogammers, former cult members, and others with practical (for better or worse) knowledge or experience, and framed these observations in a way that has some heuristic value and could possibly lead to some useful scientific studies (especially now, with the new means for directly observing the brain while it performs various activities). From my own interactions with ex-cult members over a 30 year period, I believe that terms like "snapping" and "floating" refer to real behavior patterns that I have seen over and over again. Whether such terms reflect something going on in the brain or are simply reflections of group dynamics (or a bit of both) is perhaps something DoctorW could explore in his research one of these days.--Dking 04:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deprogramming

I removed the phrase about Hassan and Ross being former deprogrammers now called exit counsellors. First, deprogramming and exit counseling are NOT the same thing. Second, the editor offered no proof that Hassan or Ross ever engaged in deprogramming. Even if they did, in past decades, such information belongs in their wiki bios and/or in an article on deprogramming, not here.--Dking 18:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You may be mistaken. At least Ross discusses being a deprogrammer and stating that there are no main differences between these practices. See [3]. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

"On September 23, 1995 a jury found the Cult Awareness Network 10% liable for a failed involuntary deprogramming, and Rick Ross 70% liable for attempting the deprogramming. Ross seized and detained Jason Scott for the purpose of forcing Scott to recant his faith-based beliefs."

Septegram 20:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia article

Septegram 20:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It would appreciated it if Dking self reverts. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

There are two sides to this story and I will NOT "self-revert." I urge people to read Hassan's reply to the cult apologists who keep calling him a deprogrammer. http://www.freedomofmind.com/stevehassan/refuting/. The controversy is dealt with in the Wikipedia articles on Steve Hassan, Rick Ross and deprogramming; it was only stuck into this article (along with the zinger attempting to confound exit counseling with forcible deprogramming) to score a point that was extraneous to the paragraph in which it was inserted. If Jossi wants to contribute to the serious discussion of the history of exit counseling, deprogramming and the anti-cult movement (and the various different definitions of these three terms), by all means he should do so--in the articles on those topics.--Dking 00:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The fact is that both these individuals are former deprogrammers. The change of term to "exit counselors" was their way to remove themselves from the negative connotations of the term deprogramming as very eloquently described by Mr. Ross himself [here. He says:

However, concern developed amongst cult intervention professionals regarding the use of the word "deprogrammer." As one former cult deprogrammer noted, "By the late 1970s, the question of mind control had become intertwined in the public eye with the issue of forcible deprogramming. This occurrence was partly the result of public relations campaigns financed by certain major cults to discredit critics and divert the debate from the cults themselves."[...] Today, regardless of how unsafe or life-threatening a situation may be, due to legal threats and prolonged litigation cult intervention professionals have abandoned "forcible intervention." A succession of new titles and accompanying terms have likewise responded politically to the need felt by many professionals to distance themselves from the title "deprogrammer" and the term "deprogramming." Such titles as "Exit-Counselor," "Strategic Intervention Specialist," "High Demand Group Consultant," "Cult Information Specialist," "Thought Reform Consultant" and "Cult Intervention Specialist" and corresponding terminology are examples of this response.

"He further asserts that there is no difference between deprogramming and exit counseling by saying: "However, the essential components have remained the same.

Given the above, I see no reason to remove the "former deprogrammer" description. I would kindly request that you self-revert. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Is Dking is being asked to revert because of removing the sentence containing "deprogrammers now called exit counsellors"? If so Dking is right, the phrase as written is not true. As the this article explains, "deprogramming" was involuntary, while "exit counseling" is entirely voluntary in that the counselee is completely free to walk away at any time. For another thing, "exit counselling" is completely legal, which completely distinguishes is from the way "deprogramming" used to be conducted. "Deprogramming" and "exit counselling" are not the same thing, Ross notwithstanding. On this point Ross is at odds with the rest of the "anti-cultists". Tanaats 00:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Hassan was a former deprogrammer. He says so in Combatting Cult Mind Control. However he also describes in his book how he completely abandoned deprogramming in favor of completely non-coercive methods of intervention, now called "exit counseling".

So IMO Dking is right in objecting to deprogramming being equated to exit counseling, again Ross being alone in not distinguishing the two. You are right in that Hassan is a former deprogrammer. I propose this rewrite: "Ross and Hassan are both former coercive deprogrammers. Both have abandoned coercive deprogramming in favor of non-coercive exit counselling." (Note that those articles do support the distinction.) Tanaats 00:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Just read Dking's opinion that references to "deprogrammer" belong somewhere other than this article. Dunno', I'm new at WP. I'm happy with anything that doesn't confuse coercive deprogramming with non-coercive exit counseling. Tanaats 03:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Dking is objecting to the describing them as former deprogrammers, that is a fact. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, they are indeed both former deprogrammers. As I said, Hassan says this in his book. As for RR, I think this is fairly well known, though I don't have a citation for it (the Rick Ross article says "Ross no longer advocates coercive deprogramming or involuntary interventions for adults (he claims to have conducted dozens of such interventions), preferring instead voluntary "exit counseling" without the use of force or restraint.", although there is no citation. As for Dking's argument that this information belongs somewhere else, I have no opinion since I am too new to WP. I do strongly defend Dking's statement "First, deprogramming and exit counseling are NOT the same thing." Tanaats 04:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Links provided above do make clear that in past decades Ross and Hassan participated in deprogammings (I never claimed they didn't, only that the previous editor had not provided evidence). Hassan has stated on his web site that he participated in some attempts in the late 1970s to deprogram fellow former Unificationists and has not practiced deprogramming since then. Information about this may belong in Wiki bios of Hassan and Ross, and in the article on deprogramming. It does not belong in the section in which it was inserted, which focusses on explaining the range of expertise one finds in the public and scholarly debates over cults. If we're going to allow this, then we'd have to be consistent and insert negative snippets about every individual mentioned in the paragraph. For instance, where it says the Unificationists participate constructively in the debate over cults, we'd have to add a phrase pointing out that Rev. Moon was once convicted of tax evasion (a case, by the way, in which I suspect he got a bum rap). Or in discussing the scholarly aspect of the debate, we'd have to add that the late anti-cult scientist Dr. Jolyon West once fed LSD to an elephant as part of an alleged CIA experiment. There would be no end to it. Controversial information about public figures belongs in appropriate places in Wikipedia but should not be inserted willy nilly in places where the information is either irrelevant or of extremely marginal relevance.--Dking 15:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

My question here is "How should we identify the relevance of these two individuals to the subject at hand?" If the article mentions Moon, the most relevant reference would be "head of the Unification Church. If the article mentions Dr. West, it would probably be most appropriate to say "the late anti-cult scientist Dr. Jolyon West." So how should the text of the article identify Ross and Hassan's relevance?

Septegram 17:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I would identify Hassan simply as a mental health counselor and author (the fact that he specializes in cults is obvious from the context), since he has a degree (and a recognized practice) in counseling and has authored widely cited books on cults. Ross I would identify as simply a "private lecturer/consultant" (again, the fact that he specializes in cults is obvious from the context). I would not (after reading his bio) describe him as an "exit counselor" since he is not reported to have mental health credentials and "exit counseling" as it has evolved in recent years is something practiced chiefly by mental health professionals. (Ross may interact with ex-cult members as an informal exit counselor--and may be quite good at it!--but his primary persona seems to be as a lecturer/consultant.) Ross and Hassan's past involvement in deprogramming is not thereby being covered up, since anyone can follow the links to the Wiki articles on them and see details on (and be referred to other sites with further information about) this biographical information.--Dking 18:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)P.S. I went ahead and changed it: Ross is now an "activist and consultant"; Hassan is now a "mental health counselor and the author of..." (I left in the title of his book since other influential titles by non-academics had also been included in the paragraph and his is probably the most widely known of these books.) It is obvious that in the community of discourse on cults a measure of confusion exists over the meaning of such terms as coercive deprogramming, non-coercive deprogramming, exit counseling, therapy, etc. It is difficult to see how this can be cleared up without getting into the area of original reseaarch.--Dking 18:38, 11 December 2006 (UTC)