Talk:Cubana Flight 455

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[edit] Starting discussion

The goal of this article is of course to report facts as objective as possible about this plane crash. I hope the discussion remains civil and NPOV. Ze miguel 14:25, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Some of the questions I have tried to address are the uncertainties involved as well as the political motivations behind the revival of interest in this matter (El Jigüe, 10/15/2005)

OK I see what your viewpoint is. That is fine with me, however I would like to point you to this policy document, which states that articles on wikipedia should always be presented from a neutral point of view, along with proof of the statements. So I understand the statements you made, but I think you should support them with facts. Furthermore, I don't think such statements should be placed in the article header, but should be put in the Political Implications section. The header section should be used for a short summary of the article (3 paragraphs maximum). Thank you very much. Ze miguel 15:47, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


Miguel vea las referencias incluidas e.g. [1] es muy possible que todo esto fuera un extension de la guerra fria, y es cierto que los encargados de los botes pesqueros cubanos buscaba algo mas que peces xe xe

Anyway given the circumstance I think the way I modified the blank statements gives the correct degree of neutral impartiality required; and of course my contributions are heavily documented. You might read [2] to get a feel for the context of those times

(El Jigüe, 10/15/2005)

El Jigüe, you are not being neutral at all. All the edits you have made are heavily POV. This is quite unfortunate. Ze miguel 18:16, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


Miguel That is a most interesting charge since I took the data on the passenger list from a Cuban Government source. Perhaps it would be more productive, instead of issuing blank non-specific condemnation if you addressed the points that you feel demonstrate bias. (El Jigüe, 10/26/2005)

[edit] Available documents

Report from Venezuela government (I think): http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/belligerence/caso-avion-cubano.pdf and 24 annexes (in the same directory)

Chronology from the Cuban government: http://www.ain.cubaweb.cu/2005/mayo/31cmcronologia.htm

CIA and FBI documents on the case obtained in 2005 through the FOIA: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/index.htm

Ze miguel 14:25, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

Miguel:

Everything is relative, one could also view your original post as a following the Havana line far too closely. For instance it: concentrates on the Guyanese medical students, and does not mention North Korean or Cuban officials; places the events without the context of the Castro initiated destabilization efforts to overthrow the democratically elected and democratically functioning Venezuelan government; ignores the revenge actions of the Castro government in reference to Bolivia as described in citations

You presume to ignore http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/belligerence/caso-avion-cubano.pdf which cites Castro's improper demand to influence the trial and in which he calls the Venezuelan COPEY government a gang of christian-democrats......

You do not mention the National Security Archives, is a private left of center organization that presents xerox copies selectively retrieved sources, and the statements from this source rely on such things as "a confidential source "all but admitted that Posada and [Orlando] Bosch had engineered the bombing of the airline." "

An anonymous source who "All but admitted" does not exactly constitute proof, does it now....

(El Jigüe, 10/17/2005)

El Jigüe,

As a precision, I am not Cuban, nor do I have any personal interest in this subject. I fully agree with you that one must be very careful not to state as facts things that are carefully-built propaganda. The whole purpose of the Wikipedia is actually that. Now to address your points:

The article is about Flight 455. We should not mention things that are unrelated, such as destabilization attempts on the Venezuela government, or for instance Operation Condor. These points should be detailed in the pages devoted to them. Only things specific to this subject should be detailed, although links can be provided to other pages when the subject is mentionned.

One should not be concerned with the political leaning of the National Security Archives. If this is a concern, then the origin of the document should be mentionned, with a link to the NSA article. Then, in that article, discussion about the political leaning of this organization is certainly valuable. What is important, though, is the documents themselves, which are from the FBI and the CIA, and I think it makes them very valuable.

Something very important: the article should only state as facts things that have been proven, such as the number of dead, the trials, or the affiliation of Posada with DISIP. Allegations should be stated as such. For example: the Cuban government has accused the USA of being behind the attack. Or: Anti-Castro organizations think that Castro may have performed the attack himself. When it is not proven, it should always be stated like that.

If you need more information about this, I invite you to consult Wikipedia:Neutral_Point_of_View. It is an official Wikipedia policy on how articles should be written not to favor a given pro- or anti- point of view, but remain neutral and provide factual information.

Best regards. Ze miguel 18:09, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Miguel:


Hmmmmmmmmm I still have quibbles (1): that when the "National" Security Archives (a private left leaning organisation), requests a document it is a selection from a pool of other documents, and each document are usually selectively blacked ("to protect the innocent");(2) during the whole process Castro was exerting pressure on the Venezuelan government, a thing to be taken most seriously since he has already set up a mini-invasion of Venezuela; (3) context is important what if one mentions the Lusitania tragedy without mentioning WWI, one would get a different impression of events; (4) there is no doubt (i took that list, see reference, from one of Castro's sites) that there were senior North Korean cultural attaches and Cuban government officials who held high positions in the trawler fleet that spied on Venezuela and at least once were shelled by Venezuelan naval forces. What I have not yet tracked down the source that reports the athletes were dressed in their Cuban Armed Forces uniforms. (El Jigüe, 10/17/2005)

El Jigüe, that's not the point. You may of course have an opinion on the case. I also have mine, which is different. But what is important is that our personal opinions are not reflected in the article, and that it remains neutral. If you agree on this, then the rest is easy. Your latest edit "Besides the crash was at sea and it is not clear how such evidence was gathered. Or perhaps it is merely testimony." is speculative, you don't have any proof of that. Ze miguel 21:14, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


I reformatted and moved your comments, in order to set a neutral point of view in the article. I hope this is ok. Ze miguel 09:13, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More Links.

CaribDigita 19:33, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a lot CaribDigita, I'll take a look at these. Ze miguel 19:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
No problem. The sites I would recommend which have articles constantly about the Cubana incident (in English) are in news papers involving those states involved. Barbados, Trinidad, Guyana, etc.

Barbados: http://www.nationnews.com/ http://www.barbadosadvocate.com/ Guyana: http://www.stabroeknews.com/ http://www.guyanachronicle.com/ Trinidad and Tobago: http://www.TrinidadExpress.com/ http://www.guardian.co.tt/ Jamaica: http://www.JamaicaObserver.com/

Just type something like "Cubana" in the search fields and your going to find articles as recent as this year and pretty much going on back to ~ 2002 when alot of the Caribbean started celebrating this as a whole as one of the worst terrorist acts ever carried out on the region. CaribDigita 22:03, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cuba-CARICOM meeting this week

New article (See link above). It is suspected Fidel Castro will this seek the assistance of other Caribbean states for fostering a resolution to the Luis Posada Carilles situation. CaribDigita 18:29, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Nice find. Would you please report on the conclusions of the meeting after it's concluded ? -- Ze miguel 19:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
There will be tons of information about it on most of the media sites in the Anglophone Caribbean, and from CARICOM which always issues an official conference communique.

CARICOM-Cuba summit begins in Barbados this week CaribDigita 02:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

It's a pity Chavez is not around, since it is Venezuela which is supposed to judge Posada. -- Ze miguel 09:35, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
  • History in the making: I should probably have set aside time to update this myself however these newspaper links are tough to find after approx. 3 days, (based on the structure of the website), so I'm merely chaching the links here for right now.
I added a new paragraph to the article, mentionning CARICOM. -- Ze miguel 13:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alternate histories?

This article unfortunatley completely lacks Orlando Bosch's and Luis Posasa Carriles's testiomies on the facts, besides un cited "quotes" by these men, most notably Bosch saying "No one on that plan was innocent" and so forth, which have no citation. Yes the CIA documents say they were planning the bombing but no alternate was suggested, as if there was no refutation of these "facts" when in fact if anyone has delved a little further into this would realize one very important thing. this artcile completely lacks the name of Ricardo "Mono" Morales Navarrete, the man who both Bosch and Posada have said SEVERAL times was the one actually responsible for planning and carrying out the bombing, with no support from either man. It is not mentioned that in Posada's interview here recently in Miami on the show of Maria Elvira, which two episodes were dedicated to interviewing him, he repeatedly denyed any involvement, AND accused "Mono" morales of doing it AND condemened it as a horrific act of pure terrorism and murder. whether you belive it or not, it seems quite disingenious to not mention it.

At the moment, I do not have enough information to make a clear entry into this artcile to present all the facts and speculation, and I dont even know how I would title it, Alternate Theorys?, Posada and Bosch's Take?

There is VIDEO of el Mono Morales admitting to carrying out the bombing, which I believe was shown on the Maria Elvira show, which was shot by a good friend of my father's. There are a ton of things not mentioned at all in this saga of political intrigue and murder. Most people suspected Morales of being a double agent of Castro, and he was killed in Miami sometime ago in a bar dispute. Once again, whether anyone happens to beleive it, it is very mich worth mentiong and the artcile is incomplete without reference to him. the man who it seems was the one who actually did it not being mentioned is quite an oversight!

Hopefully soon i'll have enough of a coherent story and history and collection of facts to post a good addition to this article.

[edit] 2006 Anniversary

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