Talk:Criticism of Pokémon

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An entry from Criticism of Pokémon appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 25 July 2006.

Contents 1 Unnecessary Comments Regarding Protestantism 2 Violence 3 My response 4 Poorly named 5 Swastika? 6 Subliminal Messages? 7 Islam section removed 8 Among The Anime Community 9 Originality Section 10 Subjects not touched upon (much)

[edit] Unnecessary Comments Regarding Protestantism

In the religion/christianity section the author makes the following statement:

"Protestants seemed to have been angry because it took them hundreds of years to do what Pokemon did in a few years. Since they are mostly conservative, they are also afraid that the Japanese will overrun these crackers' businesses. It looks more like a front advocating white nationalism rather than fighting against Satanism."

This is quite obviously not impartial and neutral and as utterly brilliant and whoever wrote this is it is unfounded and pretty pethetic. Just sounding off something you heard Dennis Miller say when your mummy let you stay up late isnt really appropriate for wikipedia.

I cant actualy think of any way to De-hatethe statement so I'm just going to remove it for now.

[edit] Violence

Something should be added about that Pokemon "duels" might encourage using violence by kids as a way of achivving your goals. In some ways Pokemon duels are similar to some cruel sports like for example Dog fighting. Mieciu K 10:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Unless people have complained about it, there is no reason to. Heh, this article is already on the brink of the absurd.

So are most of the people who've made mountains out of molehills... the blackface allegations I find hilarious, because she was so ready to ASSUME that someone in a major corperation was delibrately using racist images, that she never looked into the other potential reasons for the character's design. As someone who has read GALS!, a manga about kogals, I immediately thought "Whoa! Ganguro kogal!" when I saw the original black-skinned Jynx picture (mind you, even in GALS!, the ganguro kogals look a little blackfacey, or greyfacey more like since they're nowhere near actual black and the manga's in black and white to begin with, but that really is the way the trend has their tan lines, judging from the photos I've seen. Looks weird, yeah, but that's the fashion). Sometimes my country is so oblivious to the concept that other cultures might have differing pop cultural images, it astounds me. Of course, then again, one could argue that the Japanese exported their very Japanese product without particularly doing much research, but still.

As for the Satanism allegations, I am almost embarassed to admit that, yes, I have seen people claim these kinds of idiotic things about Pokemon. One woman was even all alarmed after hearing her children imitating a Bulbasaur while playing the TCG, not realizing that that grunty sound is merely the sound a Bulbasaur makes in the dub of the TV series (she didn't ask her kids about it, either, but rather immediately assumed the worst. *snerk!*). She had this website with an essay, which was all like "keep it away from your kids" and panicky and everything. Big long essay that even I, as a non-Pokemon-fan, found ridiculous. Such as saying the one psychic Pokemon had a "Satanic star", which wasn't a Satanic pentacle at all (those are upside-down five-pointed stars), but in actuality a six-pointed star similar to the Star of David, a Jewish symbol, not Satanic (making it even funnier is the fact that all manner of Western star emblems - five-pointed, six-pointed, Satanic pentacles - are often used indiscrimently in Japanese anime and manga to represent ANY kind of supernatural or magical symbol, for instance, as in the fantasy anime The Slayers, in scenes where it was on the signage for a non-evil magic supplies shop). My country seems proud to be the causer of the most "WTF?" expressions and forehead-smackings around lately. Seriously.

Sidenote - like anything that features "duels", of course there have been allegations that they promote violence. Just not as many as there were for say, Power Rangers. I'm also surprised no one's ever thought to complain about perceived animal abuse, considering the way they're pitted against each other, but I guess it's outweighed by the moralistic "take care of your Pokemon" message they keep putting in most of the episodes I've actually seen. Runa27 19:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I've heard complaints about the violence and dueling of Pokemon, including http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/pokemon.html ("Pokemon teaches the following concepts/philosophies that are counter to Christianity: 1. Violence as a means of obtaining power."), http://www.fradical.com/Feeding_their_fears.htm (" Although violence in cartoons has always existed, says Lefebvre, "notice that in the earliest cartoons, such as Tweetie, the 'good guys,' like Tweetie, used wits and distraction techniques, only resorting to violence when all else failed, but now in Ninja Turtles and Pokemon violence is the first choice for both 'good guys' and 'bad guys.' ""). There are a few others also. Belltower 19:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My response

Grew up with pokemon TCG and all I can say is LOL! I mean, I saw the similarity when I was a kid, but I didn't think much of it. Plus Jinx was a crappy card. - User:Cyberman

[edit] Poorly named

"Controversy and criticism of Pokémon" is grammatically incorrect. A correct way of putting it would be "Controversy surrounding, and criticism of, Pokémon", but this defies our naming style. I suggest we drop the "Controversy and " at the beginning of the name. Any further suggestions? --Oldak Quill 02:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't called that to start with somebody (I don't know who) renamed it —Minun ^Spiderman 13:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Well its alright, i've dropped the "Controversy and", cheers —Minun ^Spiderman 13:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Swastika?

I don't remember ever seeing a swastika. Was it in the games? Where was this? --Brandon Dilbeck 17:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It was on one of the cards. Teh Pampas Cat 20:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It was not a swastika. It was a manji. They are different. Tarafuku10, 10 October 2006

[edit] Subliminal Messages?

After reading the section saying if the Pokérap was played backwards, it would reveal a satanic message, I was alarmed, yet sceptical. I then downloaded the song and played it backwards, only to hear gibberish!

It actually said "I Love Satan" very clearly in my opinion; though I'm sure this is just a coincidence. -- THL 23:34, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Really? I am really skeptical that it could say "I love Satan" when played backwards. I wonder what is the probablity that those four syllables could appear in that order. Well, Pokémon doesn't promote satanism as I do not understand how. I think you're joking here.

For example let's look at this website (the God and "Science" one)

"Other Pokemons "evolve" through the use of "stones" (thunder, water, moon, fire, and leaf) which are items used to summon powers (the origin of these "powers" is not stated, but they are not from God)."

Well, in the Pokémon world, those stones are as natural as gasoline. I have never heard anyone invoking Satan in the anime. Well, I guess he thinks organic synthesis is Satanic too; we are able to invoke the powers of chemistry to find drugs that are able to cure cancer such as taxol. Since this power to inhibit cancer doesn't come from God, but from the respectable science of organic chemistry, I guess he thinks organic chemistry is satanic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LinkinPark (talk • contribs) .

First, I should point out that the article on Backmasking mentions that pairs of syllables can easily sound like the word "Satan" when played backwards. Now I've gone to that site and must admit that I don't at all hear the words "I love Satan". People would really have to be pushing it to make that connection. --Brandon Dilbeck 03:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I've heard it played backwards on the website this article links to. It clearly says "I love Satan" four times in a row. Note, the song says either the same thing or very similar things in a row. I don't think Pokémon encourages Satanism. The creator is Buddhist! I don't need convincing of your side because I only believe what I can see myself, and I have seen proof for the creator's Buddhism. As for thinking I'm joking, I do not have a sense of humor; never have, never will. -- THL 01:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I am still skeptical though. Are you saying you heard it say "I love Satan" four times in a row when you played it, or you heard it once each time you played it four times. If it is the former, I find it hard to believe that those syllables would be heard that way as 16 syllables are needed for it to say "I love Satan" 4 times in a row. Well, I think you are lying when you said you do not have a sense of humor. You laughed when the notion of Misty being a cannibal was linked to transubstantiation.

4.232.171.177 03:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I did hear it, and I agree with Brandon that I cannot hear the words "I love Satan". All I heard was gibberish. Well, at best this is extremely subjective issue. 4.232.171.177 04:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I heard it clearly at least 3 times in a row, but the voice sounded kind of decomposed; probably not the best choice of word but... Anyway, I have a sense of humor about my past mistakes; that is how I live with myself everyday. I lack one about most other things, however. -- THL 04:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

It is kind of like this, "I (extended) love Satan-love Satan, I (extended) love Satan-love Satan. The Satan part sounds higher than the I and love. -- THL 07:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Islam section removed

IP 70.24.207.57 removed this section, calling it "Hopelessly muddled". If anyone is able to clean up this section and restore it to the article, please do so. I myself don't know enough to expand it myself. --Brandon Dilbeck 17:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

===Islam===
Pokémon has only belatedly made its way to the Islamic world, at this point, in [[Saudi Arabia]].{{fact}} The driving point behind this factor is the belief that the trading card game promotes [[gambling]] with cards.{{fact}} In most moderate Islamic countries, such as [[Turkey]] and [[Pakistan]], it poses no threat.{{fact}} In [[Iran]], for example, the game is relatively popular, and the Pokémon logo and characters are widely recognizable in much of the Muslim world.

<!-- This paragraph no longer makes sense without information as to what “Pokémon” was alleged to mean.

Despite assurances from the Nintendo that the trade name stands for “Pocket Monsters,” the video games and related items have been stripped from store shelves in Saudi Arabia and turned away at ports. Schools in Saudi Arabia have set up collection points to turn in clothing decorated with Pokémon figures.

-->A fatwa, or religious edict, issued by a Saudi sheik urges all Muslims to beware of the game, noting that most of the cards bear "six-pointed stars, a symbol of international [[Zionism]] and the state of [[Israel]]".<ref> "[http://web.archive.org/web/20040707073452/http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1249820.stm Saudis to Stamp Out Pokémon]", ''BBC News'' ([[Waybacked]]).</ref> This refers to the Colorless Energy symbol.  In many Muslim countries, the colorless energy symbol is replaced with a less-controversial five-pointed star.

However, the fatwa is very rarely enforced and it is still quite easy to buy Pokémon video games and products.

[edit] Among The Anime Community

Should the page also mention the criticism the anime recieved from many members of the Anime community? I've met a huge majority who consider Pokemon a disgrace to Anime. Godaiger

Do you have a reliable source for that claim? Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 07:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Originality Section

This is a fact, and well known among toy experts and anime fans who grew up in the 80s especially in Japan and Hong Kong. I don't know why it is getting deleted. If someone wants to challenge the idea for a good reason, feel free. I can understand the Pokemon fan base is relatively young and were probably not born in the 80s, but facts is facts. Plawres Sanshiro did it first with robots. Benjwong 14:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing, but there needs to be sources for the info in the article. If you could find some sources, that'd be great. --Brandon Dilbeck 18:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I added a book reference. I don't think some web forum reference would even cut it. Benjwong 14:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

i feel that this section is leaning to much tord calling pokemon un origanal, it shoulld be change to have more nutral wording.((User:HHS.student))

[edit] Subjects not touched upon (much)

Though the parallels to cockfighting are mentioned both here and in the shortened criticism section on the main article, there is no rebuttal mentioning the battling of beetles. I have heard many times the story that Satoshi Tajiri was inspired, in part, by a pastime kids have in Japan. They collect large beetles, and battle them. From Rhinoceros beetle:

Rhinoceros beetles are popular children's pets in Asia. They are clean, easy to maintain, and safe to handle. In Asian countries, male beetles are also used for gambling fights since they naturally compete for female beetles with the winner knocking the other off a log.

This is a much "nicer" pastime than cockfighting. It is also not original research, though I have forgotten the sources.

Also, when I first heard of Pokemon being criticized by Christian groups, my first thought was their similarity to familiars, their elemental characteristics, and the fact that Pokemon trainers "summon" them like demons, or more accurately, like genies from lamps (or pokeballs. However, since I haven't heard those criticisms from other sources, I think of it as original research. --BlueNight 08:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The latter part of you statement is touched upon in the article. As for the part about the beetle fighting, the people who originally said it were jumping to conclusions. Satoshi Tajiri said that he was inspired by his love of collecting insects; at no time did he mention beetle fighting. The people were simply jumping to conclusions. -- THL^CCD 08:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)