Talk:Criticism of Islam

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This article is a frequent source of heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here.

This article is part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam/Criticism of Islam task force article assessment section, a WikiProject related to the Criticism of Islam.

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[edit] Islam and Women

I know, I know, I'm anonymous. But honestly, this section needs some work folks. I don't claim to be a scholar on this kind of thing but the current section reads more as an apology and justification section for why women exist in the legal/social status they do rather than actually discussing what the modern criticisms levelled at Islam regarding women are. I read in the paper about muslim clerics in Australia saying "Women...were 'weapons' used by Satan to control men," and shifting blame of gang rapes on 'immodestly dressed' women, and I'm curious as to why at the very least some mention of this isn't made here. It's not like there is a dirth of material from Amnesty International and other humanitarian organizations that discuss the plight of women in strictly Islamic cultures. Can you (and I refer to people who author, not people who, like me, criticize) do a little more in the arena of informing the casual reader about the details here- There's an entire paragraph (the longest and most informative of the section) that begins with "Some Islamic scholars..." that goes to great lengths to justify the Islamic position. The other paragraphs level some bland and uninformative accusations at Islam concerning women, but this justifying paragraph seems to get the most attention. I'm all for being unbiased, but I'm also for being unafraid. This section seems just plain wrong, both in presentation and content. - Anonymous

[edit] Suggestions for keeping cool

Just chipping in uninvited... This is for everyone, but you know who you are:

If you're fixing vandalism, 3RR doesn't count. Otherwise it does.
Don't revert edits because they're in bad faith unless it's obvious that they are (i.e. in general, don't).
Don't discuss through edit summaries. That's not what they're for.
To Aminz: stick to the subject. If you're talking about the Qur'an, don't go on a tangent about the Bible.
To Mike18xx: you don't get to criticize other people's theses, no matter how fallacious. Better find a respected peer-reviewed scholar to do that.
Question: Does Robert Spencer deserve a place along serious scholars? Some versions of the article give him too much importance.
Suggestion 1: If something causes a problem and is not that important, better leave it aside for a while.
Suggestion 2: Imagine time has turned back and you're living on 10 Sep 2001. Furthermore, imagine you haven't even heard of anything called "Clash of Civilizations". You need to criticize Islam, not to reflect current hot arguments about it.

Good luck, folks. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 10:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Pablo-flores, thanks for your suggestions. Well, actually I don't think providing the context is irrelevant. Slavery was a common feature of the ancient world. I don't think selectively picking the sentences relating to the Qur'an and obscuring the context from which these sentences are taken would be a nice idea, even if we are writing about the Qur'an. I suggest having a very small non-critical sub-section on the slavery itself which is followed by a criticism section and responses to that section. --Aminz 21:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Regards "respected peer-revied scholars" and "serious scholars", these are simply arbitraries in service of an appeal-to-authority logical-fallacy in contravention of the "notable" test. Certainly Robert Spencer thinks he's quite serious about his work, and given that his stated reason for not pursuing a further academic career was because he held the universities to be hopelessly politicized (a rather obvious fact which I think even the most brazen here would find difficult to deny with a straight face), it would be unreasonable to expect him to be favorable "peer-reviewed" given said politicization. Lastly, it's regrettably after Sept 10, 2001 now; and if you think things are rough now, just wait until that Iranian more-Nazi-than-Hitler idiot has his bomb, and Europe slides thoroughly into Eurabia--World War IV is coming fast, everybody has mid-field seating, and is just waiting for the teams to exit the locker-rooms. (If you have no idea of what that portends, pretend the internet existed in 1942, and you're trying to edit Wikipedia past hundreds of Goebbels fans and Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere agents. You'll have fond, fond memories, then, of how calm and peaceful things are TODAY.)--Mike18xx 05:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

the simple fact is that spencer is little more than a polemicist and propagandist, he is not an authority in any matter even remotely related to islam and so his opinion is of no significance in an encyclopaedia, except when noted to display current rhetorical trends in the lucrative field of islamophobic jingoism (just ask Craig Winn). ITAQALLAH 06:01, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Say, that's an interesting user-page you have, ITAQALLAH. No need to guess where you're coming from.--Mike18xx 08:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Mike, you think itaqallah is too biased to suggest Robert Spencer is biased? spencer is not a scholar. Not by any rational account. The lack of a university backing, politicized or not, makes no difference in thise case, and especially in this subject. Robert Spencer writes anti-Muslim propoganda for evangelical christians. It has no place in an encyclopedic article. I would say the same about trying to include published Muslim hate-speech here as well. Oizfar 21:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey Mike, assume good faith please. --Ķĩřβȳ ♥Ťįɱé Ø 19:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

- "Imagine time has turned back and you're living on 10 Sep 2001." Why should we? Why should we ignore history? If you don't want to include Islamic fundamentalists' most heinous crimes or the threat Islamic fundamentalism represents, then you're writing fiction. Why not just jump back to 1938 and make believe the Holocaust never happened? (Like a certain Iranian we all know.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.59.12.138 (talk • contribs) 00:11, 18 September 2006.

I think everybody understands what I meant by "turning back time". In case you don't, I meant seeing the whole history of Islam objectively rather than through the paranoid-hysterical post-9/11 mentality. Violent Islamic fundamentalism has existed for a long time and deserves clear-headed fact-based criticism.

Mike18xx, a discussion is not conducted by calling people "Nazi" who are not strictly Nazi, by using highly flammable terms like "Eurabia" in talking about Islam, or by harassing people because of the contents of their userpage. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:10, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I was just curious why Oriana Fallaci isn't mentioned in this article. She was a critic of Islam, a notable one too. But I don't really understand why we should pretend like 9/11 really happened. That doesn't make any sense at all. If it offends people that they are of the same religion as radical nutjobs, well thats too bad. Cheers - Amused Himself to Death

[edit] the quran

the section "the quran" should NOT call the main article "quran." That article has nothing to do with criticism of the quran.--Sefringle 04:42, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Critics also challange the claim that Islam is of devine orgin, using the verses I mentioned in the article.--Sefringle 19:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I suggest a re-writing of this section to improve it.--Sefringle 03:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion

I am a bit confused about the source of your information about Mohammeds fits. I vividly recall not ever hearing anything about Mohammed having fits or epilepsy.By the way this whole article is compromised of Information taken from sources that are relativley biased. I suggest you read some unbiased articles of islam so as to understand teh true translations of quranic verses from Arabic to English. Arabic is a very specific language so you cannot always rely on english translations. For example an iinsult in urdu ( urdu is based from arabic with the same letters too) would not make sense in enlish bacause it would go like this : you are a donkeys head (???) I mean honestly. I do not wish to make any enemys or anything so please dont think i am trying to be rude. Because im not. MOI 18:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad had to be convinced that he wasn't possessed, and nearly committed suicide multiple times. This was narrated by Aisha and can be found in Bukhari's hadith. Arrow740 00:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Said and Orientalism

I see nothing on this page justifying the passage from Said. I see no relevance to the Said passage. This is a page about criticism of Islam, not about the critics of the critics of Islam. Said has pages enough. Why is it here? Lao Wai 22:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CHALLENGE

Below is the following section under "Criticism of Islam"

====Criticism of the methods used by critics ====

- Edward Said, in his essay Islam Through Western Eyes, stated that the general basis of Orientalist thought forms a study structure in which Islam is placed in an inferior position as an object of study. He claims the existence of a very considerable bias in Orientalist writings as a consequence of the scholars' cultural make-up. He claims Islam has been looked at with a particular hostility and fear due to many obvious religious, psychological and political reasons, all deriving from a sense "that so far as the West is concerned, Islam represents not only a formidable competitor but also a late-coming challenge to Christianity."^[1] Montgomery Watt agrees with West's historical denigration of Islam but states that the situation has become much better during the last two centuries though many of the old prejudices still linger on. Watt encourages both Muslims and Europeans to reach to an objective view of Muhammad and his religion.^[2] - - The motivations of certain outspoken modern-day critics has come under criticism as a means of indirectly dismissing the neutrality of their works. For instance, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, commenting on quotes from Daniel Pipes' such as "the presence, and increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims...will present true dangers to American Jews", characterizes Pipes' works as "troubling bigotry towards Muslims and Islam".^[3]

I challenge anybody to dispute one of my accusations of the paragraph above. I accuse the section, "Criticism of the methods used by critics" as being:

anti-Christian
Biased
Pro-Islamic
Pro-Terrorist

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.112.92.249 (talk • contribs) 19:11, 23 September 2006.

I would dispute most of that. However it is irrelevant. This is a page on the Criticism of Islam, not on what CAIR or Said think of the critics of Islam. It ought to go even if it is all those things you say. Lao Wai 22:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

yeah, CAIR's name is their disclaimer already! We don't need self-evident disclaimers! otoh, If CIAR is being referenced significantly in the section on violence, one must mention that they don't speak for all American Muslims (as they have links to terrorist organisations). But such disclaimers are unnecissary when your talking about wider issues, not specifically violence. Just don't let people think that CIAR's terrorist appologetics reprissent all western Muslims. 80.11.135.53 20:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I dispute two of your accusations:

anti-Christian

That section is not anti-Christian, since Orientalism is not a Christian matter. It has been present in "Christian" culture 100 years ago as you can find out by reading in the "Old Catholic Encyclopedia", but it is not part of Christian doctrine to regard different cultures inherently inferior.

Biased

Of course it is biased, just as is any other section of that article. NPOV does not mean "No Point Of View", it means "Neutral Point Of View", which means in this case, that all relevant views should get mentioned in the article.

Pro-Islamic

Yes it is, but that doesn't disqualify its inclusion. (see the previous sentence about NPOV)

Pro-Terrorist

That claim is just ridiculous and unfounded. Nothing in that section is anywhere close to pro-terrorist propaganda. Raphael1 13:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Response to Raphael

I dispute two of your accusations:

anti-Christian

I should have made this point more lucid. This section is not anti-Christian. This ENTIRE ARTICLE is anti-Christian. Let's face it. If there was a religion that Islam despises today, that's got to be Christianity, the main corroboration being that Christians launched the crusades that took away their, somehow, god-given dream of an Islamic empire from southern Spain to Afghanistan. But the fact that gets lost is that the crusades was an exigent, if not even felicitious, rejoinder to what the Catholic church saw as devastating encroachments by Islamic calliphates into Christian territory. We have to remember that it was Islam that started this whole war, when they waged jihad against Christians and conquered Iraq, Lebanon, Syria and northern Africa, all of which were once CHRISTIAN TERRITORIES before falling into the hands of Islamic fanatics. The point I am trying to undergird is that however many people criticize Islam and however many religions voice their dissent over Islam, Muslims are going to attack Christianity because they need to somehow make-up for the ignominous losses they suffered to the Crusaders 1000 years ago. So even if a Buddhist, Hindu or Jew attacked Islam, Muslims will STILL blame and attack Christians. Need I say more of the absolutely ridiculous allusions to Christianity in the following sentence?

..."that so far as the West is concerned, Islam represents not only a formidable competitor but also a late-coming challenge to Christianity."

I'm pretty sure only Westerners are criticizing Islam. Especially when there is Ali Sina. Or Wafa Sultan. Or Salman Rushdie. I just find it utterly ridiculous how the West and Christianity are always, ALWAYS, used as convenient punching bags if Islam is attacked. If so, how could you blame Pope Urban II when he summoned the crusade? Doesn't he have the right to protect Christianity in the very same way that Saudi Arabia tries to protect Islam by restricting the establishment of any other religion in the country?

Biased

If an article is biased, then we should institute all our ken to eviscerate these faulty informations, do we not? If the section aformentioned is biased (which it clearly is), then wouldn't I have a duty to delete it?

Pro-Islamic

Yes it is, but that doesn't disqualify its inclusion. (see the previous sentence about NPOV)

Just to remind you, this article is called, "Criticism of Islam" NOT "Criticisms of the Criticism of Islam." If the article was pro-Islamic, then what's the point of creating an article called, "Criticism of Islam." If Muslims want to palliate some of the criticisms in the article by suggesting counter-arguments, that is perfectly fine. But do it in understandable and non-truculent manner. Don't just attack other religions because you presume that people from that particular religion are contributing to this article. And since we are talking about other religions, why don't you go to Criticism of Christianity and find out how many times Islam gets mentioned in a denigrating way?

Pro-Terrorist

That claim is just ridiculous and unfounded. Nothing in that section is anywhere close to pro-terrorist propaganda. Raphael1 13:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

You say: Nothing in that section is anywhere close to pro-terrorist propaganda.

Well, here's some things in the past that CAIR ALONE has said (I'm not sure if you could call this pro-terrorist. Probably anti-Christian.)

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran ... should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth."

"It is a known fact that [CAIR has] defended, apologized for, and rationalized the actions of extremists groups ... The real challenge for moderates like myself is to prevent my Muslim brethren from [being] deceived by extremist groups that pretend to represent their interests."

If you want more information, go to Criticism of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.--205.189.150.1 05:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree that the sources cited in this are coming from sources that have a well-defined bias and agenda. But since they are responding to the challenge to their positions, I don't see a problem with this section. Kyaa the Catlord 16:59, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

This section should not be so high in the article, and as no Daniel Pipes is used in this page as he is too critical to go in this article, why is he critised in this article. Maybe so his quotes can be used to denigrate legitamate critism of Islam.Hypnosadist 17:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

How exactly is Daniel Pipes' criticism less "legitamate" [sic] than any other criticism. In fact, its because he is so critical and so well known that he ought to be mentioned more in the article. If articles were created and maintained based on how legitimate or reasonable the subject matter was, then there would be no article on Islam in the first place. --203.59.166.123 19:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear 205.189.150.1, in your response to my "challenge" you are wrong in several ways:

Your Christian territories theory is totally wrong. Iraq or northern Africa has never been a "Christian territory", even if the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia (which states that people "who may have held that Islam is a kind of useful, possibly necessary, transition, between Fetishism and Christianity" are "utterly mistaken") may want to picture it that way.
If you want to remove all biased information (every POV is biased per definition), you'll end up with a blank page.
Just because the article is called "Criticism of Islam" does not mean, that it should contain nothing but a compilation of polemic or truculent criticism.
Your first "quote" from CAIR is neither pro-terrorist nor anti-Christian. Would you call a priest, who says something like "Christianity isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Bible should be the highest authority in America, and Christianity the only accepted religion on earth." pro-terrorist or anti-Buddhism?
Your 2nd quote is nothing but the personal opinion of Seif Ashmawy, which neither proofs CAIR to be pro-terrorist nor does it make CAIRs opinion on Daniel Pipes any less relevant to that article.

Raphael1 18:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Critism of the critics

Please post discusion here about this current edit war!Hypnosadist 17:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

notable criticism as well as scholarly assessment of that criticism is relevant in this article, similar sections in Criticism of Christianity and others rightly set the precedent for this (i don't see any critique of daniel pipes currently in the article). some consider that just because this is an article on criticism of islam, only criticism is allowed. the absurdity of such a position is that one would be purging even the most inane and defunct arguments of any notable or academic analysis. and seeing as though there has been notable critique of the methodologies used, justified or not, it is illogical to place it anywhere else except here, lest you end up forcing it into a rather ugly article fork, whereas wikipedia is meant to be an encyclopaedia and not a battle-ground. to those who advocate this, i suggest they first study what wikipedia and its articles are not and then take a look at WP:NPOV. Hypnosadist, feel free to relocate that section to wherever you feel is most appropriate in the article. ITAQALLAH 17:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

If the section is moved to the end of the article then it is in line with Criticism of Christianity. But it must be noted that that article contains no attacks on the critcs themselves and very few rebutals to the criticisms. Any criticism of the critics should be om their pages, not here in my opinion. Does anyone object to moving this to the end in=line with Criticism of Christianity.Hypnosadist 18:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

What difference does it make to keep it as it is, as opposed to pushing it to the end? So that people are less likely to read that material? That's not exactly neutral. I think it is fine as it is. The article is about, it shouldnt be criticism of Islam. Since when is "Criticism of Christianity" the template this article has to agree with. Responses and opposing theories to criticisms and critiques should be in the body of the article. All 'sides' should be equally represented. ImKidding 03:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

If that was the case these criticisms should be in the apropriate islam article but they are forced to be here as they are constantly delete out of original articles.Hypnosadist 11:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

This is absolutely ridiculous. Why do people keep on adding the insane paragraph, "Criticism used by Critics of Islam?" It's not as if Islam has no blemishes. Just deal with it. Islam is not the best religion that this world has to offer and it's record isn't squeaky-clean, either. So stop whinning, grow some wits and deal with it. --205.189.150.1 20:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reason for my choice of sources for Oriana Fallaci

There is a logical reason here. Lot of commentary is from Italian sources. My Italian is poor to say the least so as an initial seque of Oriana Fallaci into the text as a notable critic of Islam I have linked to a Newyorker interview as that's in English. I may have the cite wrong though. I'll try and track down the details of the court case that she was presented with for her criticism of Islam to put into the "Muslim Objections to Critics" section. Obviously any court case kind of stymied !. I feel the Newyorker interview encapsulates her criticism of Islam faithfully without bloating this already too long topic. Ttiotsw 12:33, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Femicide

Why is there even stuff about honour killings in the section on Femicide? All it contains are news stories of honour killings and suchlike which NO muslim scholars accept.

I thought this article was criticism of Islamic beliefs rather than the actions of muslims. we might as well add all crimes perpetrated by muslims to this article if we're going down that route.

- rolls eyes*

I am sorry but would you mind signing your posts with four tildas (~)? What makes you think that honor killings are not accepted by Muslim scholars? You can, no doubt, find scholars in the West and even some in the Islamic world who condemn them. A few. Now. In English. But what makes you think it is not a part of Islamic belief to do so? All part of forbidding the evil and commanding the good. They are, after all, unpunishable in Islamic law and so I'd think most Muslims would assume God approves of them. Lao Wai 13:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

If the "honour killings" point was properly connected with Islamn that has proper references, why would should it be eliminated, because muslim scholars have another POV? Referenced points about Islam (if the point is about Islam indeed) should remain. Nonprof. Frinkus 19:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, it's me again. I've never seen a muslim scholar say that honour killings are part of islamic belief. Do you have any evidence? Even from a basic point of view, they are extra-judicial killings which is not islamic in itself. Oh yeah, signing my post ;-) 88.106.153.37 23:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

To my knowlege the talk page is supposed to be used for discussing article content only. You cannot associate honor killing with Islam without evidence supporting that claim. "What makes you think" and "Prove it isn't there" isn't an acceptable replacement for actual knowlege of the matter, and if you have no notable knowlege on the matter, it is better you stay silent. Unless you have the curiosity to do some work towards knowing whether or not that claim is true, discussing the matter is idle chatter of no value in a discussion about content going into an article. ImKidding 02:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Technically, not only can people associate honor killing with Islam, but I presume before you removed it that the article did just that. The question at hand is more properly whether or not the article should associate Islam with honor killing, and there's little denying that Muslim countries have a very disproportionate number of "honor killings" when compared with other countries. Yes, much of it is tribe based, but these tribes mostly consist of people under the jurisdiction of Islamic courts, which when presented with cases concerning this, don't often oppose the practice, implying a somewhat indirect acceptance of the practice by Islamic authorities. The only real question here is which sources would you feel would be adequate to demonstrate this, news media accounts, or do people have to delve deep into accounts of Islamic law being practiced in various countries, and how many countries need to fall under the references? Homestarmy 16:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Homestarmy, do you know that Wikipedia doesn't allow "Original Research"? Read WP:OR. It's not enough for you to deduce your own conclusions, you must provide sources that validate the content. Also, the femicide section doesn't cite actual criticisms, which leads us to conclude that the editor is doing his own criticizing. That is not allowed either. Wikipedia isn't the place for people to put forward their own editorial pieces. ImKidding 01:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

That is why I specifically stated that the real question was which sources. News reports would be easy, thought its possible a case can be made that news reports aren't necessarily indicative of a general trend in a religion. Finding actual justification within Islamic authorities writings would make a much stronger case, thought would probably be harder to locate, since much of it is probably written in Arabic and there's no reason why it would mostly be actually on the internet. So what sort of sources are needed here to substantiate the claim? Homestarmy 15:48, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

"femicide" doesn't belong under this title (unless we're discussing specific fatwahs or theological treatises), but it should be discussed at Demographics of the Middle East or some such: working on sex ratio and gender imbalance, I have noted that countries of the Arab world tend to have a 'normal' male/female ratio at birth, but an extremely high male/female ratio for people above 65, which implies a significantly above average female mortality. dab (ᛏ) 16:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sefringle's recent edits

per [1] i would advise it is highly undesirable to include counter-responses for the simple fact that it would need to be balanced out by the typical counter-counter-response. keep the significant critique under "critics say" and keep the significant Muslim response as "Muslims respond..". having a series of counter responses merely acts as a sitmulant for a succession of "rebuttals"- we have no need to reproduce polemic here. keep it simple: one critique then one tyical response. that is the best way to achieve NPOV. ITAQALLAH 17:45, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

We now have a science in the Quran article so all this silliness can be moved there and have space created for meaningful criticism!Hypnosadist 17:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I have noticed many of the other topics about Islam on this page, for example the morality of the quran section, contains a Muslim rebuddle followed by a critic rebuddle to the muslim rebuddle. Why can't this section of the article have that too?--Sefringle 04:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

why should it? and why should any section have it for that matter? ITAQALLAH 14:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

All criticism is a highly debated topic. An article about the criticism of Islam must include all points, and that includes rebuddles. Critics don't just make one point, and then the the muslims make a counter point, and that is the end. No, that is not the end at all. The debate continues. To keep the page neutral, the point to stop is when we start repeating the same points over and over again, something that often occurs in debates. And while wikipedia has a neutral point of view, that also means we must include the whole debate (until repetition), and both sides of the debate, not cut it off after the first rebuddle.--Sefringle 02:12, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

er, not quite. wikipedia is not a place to reproduce linear-style debates between critic A and apologetic B. one aspect of islam is highlighted, substantial and significant criticism (and this means from decent sources, preferably not pseudo-academic polemic found on the typical websites) of that aspect is compiled and given in one paragraph, typical muslim response to substantial criticism is compiled and given in the next paragraph; then next aspect of islam. do you see how ridiculous this would become were we to include all rebuttals and counter-rebuttals one after the other, in every article where there are two opposing viewpoints? take for example a typical Sunni/Shi'a debate:

Sunnis claim X. Shi'a respond to X by claiming Y. Sunni dismiss Y by claiming counter-Y. Shi'a respond to counter-Y by claiming counter-X and counter-counter-Y. Ah, Sunnis say, Shi'a viewpoint is defunct on grounds of Z. Shi'a respond to this... ad nauseum.

how tedious! that is not how an encyclopaedia is written. even then, a number of the critical "responses" you provided were pretty meaningless and if there was anything substantial within it, such could have been included in the initial critique. precisely, wikipedia advocates neutrality, and i saw nothing from those recent edits which would conform to neutrality per blatantly giving one side undue weight, and by looking at the standard of these un-academic "rebuttals" i can imagine the type of pointless and useless responses which would be elicited in further rebuttals. we are certainly not here to document the exchanges between website A and website B until in the editor's subjective opinion the debate has "ended" or is now becoming "repetitive".

all notable criticism (from initial critiques and subsequent rebuttals) should be compiled together into one paragraph, with all notable muslim response in the following paragraph, instead of making it helplessly unencyclopaedic. by doing that we can say Sunnis claim X, Y and Z, and these are all the substantial criticisms in rebuttals and counter rebuttals they present. then the next paragraph can be Shi'a in response to this claim anti-X/Y/Z due to such and such. that is far superior to having a line for a response, and then a counter response, and then another, and another, and another ... ITAQALLAH 02:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

How is it neutral to make the muslim response the last response? That is like saying the muslim opinion is more valid than the critics opinion, even if the critics might actually be right in the long run. By continuing the debate a little, the critics might have a really inteligent counter-point that can only be mentioned as a rebuddle to the muslim point and that counter-point would ultimately prove they are correct. By ending with the muslim rebuddles, you are saying that the muslims won the dabate, even if that isn't necessaraly the case. Are you going to tell me that that is neutral?--Sefringle 03:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

no, it doesn't mean that at all. you need to reverse your perspective for a moment: by making such a point, you are implying that your formulation is not neutral either as you are giving the polemicists the final word. such an argument is fallacious, and in fact by such a logic such an account can never be neutral as one of the sides will always be given the last say. we are not here to identify who is correct. we are here to summarize the general, notable criticism made. that is best done in the method i suggested. if the criticism is strong enough then objective readers will realise the futility of the Muslim response, without us even having to vaguely indicate it (by making it lattermost). we are not here to provide rebuttal after rebuttal because the point of the article is to note the criticisms made of islam, and per NPOV balance it through typical Muslim response to that criticism. the significant and notable criticism comes first, because that's the point of the article, and thus the notable Muslim response can come nowhere except afterwards. ITAQALLAH 03:53, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, but the Critics arguement is currently not the best arguement from the critics of islam. I don't know about the muslim responses though. --Sefringle 07:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll say it again, ALL these criticisms should be on their apropriate pages but strangley they keep disappering off them?!Hypnosadist 02:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

if you're talking about shifting the qur'an/science critiques/responses to the qur'an and science article... i don't think such material would be allowed anywhere near it per the extremely high standards demanded by some of the editors over there :) ITAQALLAH 03:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Split

This article is way too long. Per wikipedia guidlines, I am going to be bold and split it. I started with the Qur'an part to match Criticism of the Bible. I am now going to split out the Muhammad (saw) part. Inshallah this will raise the quality of the article by not being a huge monolithic hate dump. If the article is smaller, that is NOT 100K, somebody might actually read it and edit it for the better. --Striver 05:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The article Islam is longer than this one. However yes if you can split it meaningfully, I think it would be nice and will facilitate more editing for this topic.--JohnsAr 06:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Or you could put the criticisms here nto there apropriate Islam articles just a thought!, i know its not going to happen.Hypnosadist 14:13, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Reverted this mass delete, its not a split.Hypnosadist 15:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crticism of Islam - Menu system needs to be changed

The Menu right now hereneeds to be in place which links all articles critical of Islam together. The Title of the Template says "Controveries related to Islam and Muslims" but there are so many more which should be linked, e.g.:

[edit] usage of {main} template under "Criticism of Muhammad" section

of course, we all concur that the link under the "main article" parameter for this section should be Criticism of Muhammad. Humus sapiens insists that the Aisha's age at marriage article be included in the {{main}} template also. i am sorry, but i do not see the logic behind this, for several reasons:

Aisha's age at marriage does not contain a substantial volume of critique. it is not really a primary article for the discussion of "Criticism of Muhammad."
to include one particular critique within the parameter gives prominence to that criticism over the others, suggesting that this critique is the strongest or most frequent, whereas this isn't really the case.
Criticism of Muhammad already encompasses Aisha's age at marriage, it seems rather illogical to include the link here. again, this merely serves as giving prominence to one, specific, critique- whereas we don't see links to Muhammad as a general or Muhammad's marriages or any of the numerous possibilities. why single out one article? in reality, no article should be singled out: Criticism of Muhammad is appropriate and sufficient.

i don't believe there is sufficient justification for implying that an article primarily concerning criticism of Muhammad exists other than Criticism of Muhammad. ITAQALLAH 17:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

ITAQALLAH, Are you trying to say that there's not enough links to exist so that a separate menu could be made for the Criticism of Islam? The menu now has links, look again. They are good links. Thats the right direction for this menu. Its not the best right now, but atleast there's some improvement. --JohnsAr 19:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

please refer to the edit that is being discussed, the diff for which i have provided above. ITAQALLAH 19:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

1)Mohammed's "relationship" with aisha is the one thing most critics are most critical of. 2)Hiding this info 5 links from the islam page and 4 links from criticism of islam and Mohammed articles is just not acceptable. In fact that that "relationship" is not on the Mohammed page just shows the bias pressent in the structure of the articles on islam.Hypnosadist 16:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

it is not the most prominent scholarly criticism. if you are talking with regards to sensationalism, then you may be correct. this critique is extremely recent in comparison to the more scholarly and more prevalent ones amongst historians. nevertheless, there is no reason whatsoever to single out one criticism and label it as a "main article" discussing criticism when the primary focus of that article is not criticism of Muhammad. i don't see how your second point is relevant here. ITAQALLAH 17:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additions

This article makes no mention of the contradictions in the Quran! I know that you Muslims will claim that saying that Jesus is both in heaven and in hell is not a contradiction, and that when it says God made man out of nothing in one place and out of other things in other places those aren't contradicting each other, but they are. Also daughters get less inheritance than sons (though the passages in the Quran relating to this end up adding up the fractions wrong). That is certainly criticized. Also S. 9:119 and S. 32:4 contradict S. 5:55. There are many other contradictions as well. There should be some mention of this. Arrow740 01:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Where does it say that Jesus(A.S.) is in hell? BhaiSaab ^talk 02:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Sura 21:98. Here's Yusuf Ali's translation: "Verily ye, (unbelievers), and the (false) gods that ye worship besides Allah, are (but) fuel for Hell! to it will ye (surely) come!" But this is not the place for this discussion. The point is that this is a criticism of Islam; our opinions on it do not matter. It merits inclusion in the article. Arrow740 02:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Arrow, Criticism of the Qur'an may be the best place to address contradictions in Quran. --JohnsAr 02:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I didn't know about that article. Maybe we should form some kind of guild to keep informed about such developments. But many people criticize Islam using the contradictions in the Quran, so there should be at least some mention of it in this article. Arrow740 02:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to participate more although I'm usually tight on time. One way we can get some sort of group formed is having a userbox that says "This user is interested in controversies about Islam", or something to that effect. As you can guess "some people" will try all their best to silence freedom at any cost. I faintly remember some sort of contradictions were present on that Criticism of Quran page but maybe freedom silencers took it out. That never works though, eventually stuff like that finds its way in. Freedom of expression can never be silenced so we are on the right side.--JohnsAr 02:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

That it is probably the most ridiculous interpretation of that verse I've ever heard. There is a whole chapter in the Qur'an dedicated to Maryam; Jesus is a prophet, and prophets go to heaven. BhaiSaab ^talk 03:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the Qur'an says in other places that Jesus is "near-stationed to Allah." However verse 98 of sura 21 clearly states that the false gods that unbelievers worship are fuel for Hell, and will surely go there. Well according to the Quran, Jesus is not God. That makes him a false god. Since he is and has been worshiped as God, this verse places him in hell. In fact someone caught Muhammad making this mistake when he first revealed this line. You can read about it here. Arrow740 03:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Answering-Islam is probably the worst source you can use, second to faithfreedom stuff. BhaiSaab ^talk 03:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

If you don't want to read it there, then get yourself a copy of the Sirat Rasul Allah and read it therein. Arrow740 03:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I've read Sirat Rasullullah and I'm satisfied with what the Prophet had to say. BhaiSaab ^talk 03:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

You have to admit that an open-minded person approaching the issue with no biases would conclude that Muhammad made a mistake and tried to cover it up. Arrow740 08:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Robert Spencer

Have any of you who say he isn't a scholar (ludicrous) actually read any of his books? He is a very good researcher. His work should be better represented in this article. Arrow740 02:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

He's just a polemicist. BhaiSaab ^talk 03:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

So I guess your answer is "no," bhaisaab. Arrow740 03:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

My answer is that I don't have time to waste on his books. As a Muslim myself, I don't have to look to an Catholic polemicist for information on Islam. BhaiSaab ^talk 03:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Bhaisaab, ofcourse you are a Muslim. Why would you "waste" time on reading Islam-critical books like Robert Spencer's? You dont have to explain it. Hopefully someone puts more of his stuff into Wikipedia.--JohnsAr 11:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

If you aren't familiar with any of his work then you should refrain from applying negative labels to him. Arrow740 08:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality of Women section

I have read the section, and it does state both sides here. I believe a "criticism of" something article should not be just apologist of why such criticism is wrong … but listing what criticisms are out there. No, what exactly about this section needs to be fixed now? Nonprof. Frinkus 16:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shirin Sinnar Quotation

A quotation appeared in this section that attributed to me a view that I do not hold; in fact, my article cited by the wikipedia entry explicitly rejects that view.

I have removed the quotation. If you'd like to see the original article, you can read it at http://web.archive.org/web/19991109075328/www.jaring.my/just/UNhr50An.html

Thanks, Shirin Sinnar

[edit] Criticism of the qur'an

I suggest a re-writing of this section on this page.--Sefringle 01:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Apostasy In Pakistan

The article claims

" many Muslim countries make apostasy from Islam a crime punishable by death, including Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, and Yemen. Other Muslim countries specify lesser punishments"

That's false.

"There was no law against apostasy [in Pakistan]; however, societal pressure against conversion from Islam was so strong that any conversion almost certainly would take place in secret. " http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71443.htm

OneGuy

[edit] Christoph Luxenberg -- a German Professor?

According to the article by François de Blois in Journal of Qur'anic Studies, Christoph Luxenberg is a psydonym of a Lebanese Christian. No western scholar (there are many who are critical of Islam) uses psydonems.

Journal of Qur'anic Studies, 2003, Volume V, Issue 1, pp. 92-97.

According to my information, 'Christoph Luxenberg' is not a German but a Lebanese Christian. It is thus not a question of some intrepid philologist, pouring over dusty books in obscure languages somewhere in the provinces of Germany and then having to publish his results under a pseudonym so as to avoid the death threats of rabid Muslim extremists, in short an ivory-tower Rushdie. Let us not exaggerate the state of academic freedom in what we still like to call our Western democracies. No European or North American scholar of linguistics, even of Arabic linguistics, needs to conceal his (or her) identity, nor does he (or she) really have any right to do so. These matters must be discussed in public. In the Near East things are, of course, very different. [2] OneGuy 21:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Does being born in Lebanon make him unnotable? Arrow740 02:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

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Category: WikiProject Criticism of Islam