Talk:Cowboy
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[edit] Cowboy Page
I changed this page from a redirect to a disambiguation page, so as to match the "cowgirl" page. The woman on top postion is also refered to as the "cowboy sex position" (ride him like a cowboy), and that page already redirected to woman on top.
21:40 7 Feb, 2005
- Strong disagree. "Cowboy", the occupation is iconic, that it is also the name of a sexual position by those who use such jargon is extremely minor. The cowhand article should actually be at "Cowboy". Quill 23:26, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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- I checked the links and there is no cowboy position. The editor is either misinformed or intentionally vandalizing. I'll go ahead and change the redirect back. There does seem to be a need for a disambiguation page though; to talk about how the term is used in the UK--I'll probably call it Cowboy (disambiguation). Frank101 04:11, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The Cowboy page is, it seems, still redirecting to Cowhand - as of 23 Feb 2005. I have not changed it to the disambiguation page that Frank101 mentions as I dont want to interfere with the discussion going on here - However I would like to agree with Frank about the need for disambiguation - especially in the light of the faux pas made by George W Bush on monday (21 feb 2005) when he stated that he 'needed a new cowboy' to Jacques Chirac at the UN conference in Geneva. This comment of G. W. Bush has caused a minor diplomatic incident, and been covered by most UK press as an outrageous insult - as it implies that Chirac is incompetent. Perhaps if there had been a wikipedia disambiguation page G.W's advisors might have realised what a stupid thing to say that was.
[edit] Cowboys are Evil
This entry was surprisingly inoffensive; therefore it needs a lot of work. More content needs to be added. One recommended topic is the mythical nature of "cowhands". Also, the fact that cowhands were moronic racists who cruelly exploited equine mammals for their own convenience. Cowhands also engaged in a savage genocide of a peaceful, aboriginal people (who lived in idyllic harmony with nature like little sylvan elves) with a near fetish-like delight. Cowhands fostered and perpetuated a "gun culture" that legitimized violence and ignored the effectiveness of dialogue, conflict resolution, and anger management. Cowhands also attempted to portray a certain hyper-masculine attitude to hide their latent homosexuality. Even today one sees the influence of the evil cowhand. Just travel beyond the realm of any decent, intelligent, progressive city into a "red state" and one will see people brandishing cowhand hats and cowhand boots, little children playing "cowhands and Indians", fans of the Dallas Cowhand football team, and unilateralist cowhand attitudes. Even the president of the United States has been criticized for being a cowhand. I'm sure some washed up old professor, who has never been west of Philidelphia, could be used as an athoritative, dogmatic source for the content suggested above. Lastly, a comparison between the evil, mythical, cowhand icon and the noble hippie would be nice.
- Now that's funny. Quill 22:46, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hi, I'm really sorry but my computer won't let me edit pages. Also I'm a newbie and don't know how I should inform people of vandalism so they can change it. So I hope you don't mind me posting it here. At the bottom of the cowboy page it says COWBOYS ARE GAAAY or something like that. I think it should be taken out but I can't. Thanks, and sorry for my newbieness!
[edit] Cowboy Artists
What of the Cowboy Artists of America, an exclusive organization of artists dedicated to portraying the lifestyles of the cowboy and the American West, both as it was and as it endures?
[edit] True or false??
True or false: although this word is masculine in American English, it is generic in other kinds of English. Please suggest moving the article to the gender-neutral term Cowhand, with both Cowboy and Cowgirl being re-directs. Any objections?? 66.32.95.180 01:20, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
- I object. I think it would be a good idea to create the article Cowhand and the three should co-exist and link to each other appropriately. Cowboy and Cowgirl are both worthy of individual articles and can be expanded. I don't agree that the three should be merged. - Tεxτurε 04:23, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
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- Well, currently cowgirl re-directs here. This certainly is sexist. 66.32.97.243 21:24, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
Hmm. It seems to me that "Cowboy" refers to a popular and inaccurate conception (or icon, or characterization) of a person in the stereotypical "Wild West". Cows, I think, have nothing to do with it. Perhaps there should be two (or three) articles. "Cowhand" should be about the job of a cowhand in reality. "Cowboy" should be about the icon, noting that it originally refered to cowhands, but now is a sort of hyper-masculine, independent symbol. Sort of like neanderthal vs. caveman. Quadell (talk) 17:48, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)
- What does "hyper-masculine" mean?? 66.245.5.89 19:26, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I for one would prefer a cowboy entry. for one thing the term 'cowboy' in the uk is iconic of a character from the wild west and the term cowhand is not at all applicable in the U.K. we have farmers that look after cows and cowherds but no cowhands. we do however have cowboys, they dress up in wild west style clothing and buy country and western music.
but my main objection to it is that it makes the addition of an entry for 'cowboy' (being an untrustworthy or unscrupulous tradesman in the U.K.)impossible. I considered wether this was simply a phrase and therefore not eligible but came to the conclusion that as there were more cowboy plumbers in the uk than cowboy enthusiasts and that both were equally recognisable to themselves and others, it probably should be in the pedia. as far as the reclassification being based on gender goes I agree with Quadell cowhand for the agricultural profession and cowboy for film genre, icon etc. after all John Wayne nor Yul Brynner were ever cowhands.
[edit] Unclear line
I think the clause "Poor weather and management in the 1880s lessened the need in America for ranching cowhands" is unclear. Why did poor weather lessen the need for cowhands? And was it poor management, or just management? Either way, how did that lessen the need? I would rewrite this myself, but I'm not well-versed on the topic and so I don't know what information the author wanted to convey.
Sorry. I mean to sign the Unclear line comment. Noob alert! --Macchiato 18:32, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Sexism Revisited
That's an interesting discussion under True or False, above. For the record, I weigh in against empty 'political correctness'; I don't know of any English speakers who would refer to 'cowboys' (or girls!) as 'cowhands' in their regular parlance; in fact, I can think of only one example of a use of the word 'cowhand' in popular culture. I do think that this is handled very well in the article, though.
If you want to bring up sexism, however, how about the fact that the entry at cowgirl says more about a sexual position than it does about female cowhands? Quill 20:40, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- What do you think is a better gender-neutral term?? 66.32.248.241 23:09, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
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- A better gender-neutral term for what? (NOT trying to be sarcastic or funny) If you meant for 'cowhand', I don't think that there is one and my point wasn't to find one; I just meant that I didn't think 'cowhand' was in common use. As I said, I think the treatment of the issue in the article is very well done. Quill 06:07, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Page is poorly named
Cowhand is a poor name for this page. It violates the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)—"Use the most common name of a person or thing". I know of no cowboy who finds the term cowboy offensive, even Indian cowboys (see All Indian Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association). If no one objects, I will move this article and its talk page to Cowboy in a couple of weeks. -Frank101 17:54, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Well, good luck with that. It won't bother me, but based on the issues raised regarding sexism, above, some folks will probably object. I'd read through the comments first--seems to me as though this might have existed at cowboy and then was moved. Quill 23:47, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Actually I did check the page history when I first happened across this article a few months back and thought it odd then. When I came across it again I did a bit more investigation and concluded it was improperly named. I don't feel that a consensus was reached in any case. Most talk appears to be about having two pages if a cowhand article is needed, not about moving the cowboy page here. A real indication that this page is wrongly named is that of the almost 200 article that point to this page, only two (2) are cowhand in the actual article and even those 2 probably mean cowboy. That's excepting the redirect pages of course. And more than 175 articles actually point to cowboy and are then redirected here. About the only time anyone actually says cowhand is to rhyme with Rio Grande. As for the sexism charge (prejudice on the basis of sex), someone who understands will have to clarify what that means as it applies to naming conventions at Wikipedia. The page has many errors that can't be fixed until it's determined if this page is to be about cowboys or about ranch workers in general. Frank101 16:07, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'd support a move to Cowboy. violet/riga (t) 16:25, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I too support the move to cowboy
- Well it's been three weeks and looks like a unanimous vote to move to Cowboy; although I had hoped for a larger quorum. Frank101 15:55, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Done. violet/riga (t) 18:09, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] A North American Phenomenon
After Reading through the text on the Cowhand page I have added the words North American as the 2nd & 3rd words because it seems clear to me that the term is a regional one, but had not been identified as one.
In fact the subsequent paragraphs go to some lengths to give other regional variants for Mexico, Spain and even Australia. The previous text gave the impression that cowhands or cowboys is the default terminology for one who tends cattle, whereas this is actually only the North American term.
perhaps the disambiguation page when it arrives could also list the counterparts from other nations.
I appreciate that the phrase is a bit controversial atm. and that the term cowhand simply refers to "one who tends a ranch" etc in America - Whilst the term Cowboy is fairly well internationalised as a genre of fiction and film. As it stands I believe that Cowhand in the strict definition of the term outlined on the page is far more regional than the term Cowboy which unfortunately does not seem to have an entry. until it does, Cowhand should not be misleadingly referenced to be an international definition. DavidP 18:27, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Overuse of Hispanic stereotypes
The Iberians were never the only cattledrivers of the Old World. In every country environment of Europe, there existed mass farming and herding societies of which cowboy life was exemplary. To be specific in the case of Southern American cowboys, they were of the Scottish Borders persuasion. These are the guys we see in Western movies, copied by John Wayne and Clint Eastwood. There is a severe lack of respect for the Southern cowboy here, with a total need for a rewrite. Read about Reive, Border country and Border Reivers. These are the real American cowboys who settled the backcountry. They did NOT get their lifestyle from Hispanics, which is completely ignorant! Whilst Spaniards introduced the lifestyle to Mexican Indians, Britons introduced it to American Indians. I know when I hear a Scottish burr in the Southwest! You know, that accent the Northern Yanks make fun of them for? So, learn to respect the South and don't y'all call them Mexican! Learn about Robert Roy MacGregor and tell me he's a Mexican! POV in the article is based upon American Civil War prejudices. Don't forget the European Union nicknames Americans as cowboys, when they are referring to the Southern United States' presence in national politics. ScapegoatVandal 07:05, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- More on the pioneering role of the American cowboy definetly needs to be added. The European uses can also be affectionate. -Wikipedia-fan
[edit] New Mexico Cowboys
Donald Chavez is a respected author in this field (see Origins of the First American Cowboys). I read his work when I first started to add to this article. My idea was that this article was to be about the North American cowboy only, and that Vaquero, Paniola, and other Spanish based ranching traditions were subjects deserving separate articles (such as gaucho, llanero, and huaso have). As such I left much out about vaquero history and tradition and spoke mainly to the American migration into the West. And I still think a Vaquero article would be better than expanding this article to include all of their history and traditions. However, that is just my opinion. Mr. Chavez, if you get a Username, other editors would be able to talk to you on your discussion page. Or if you prefer to use an anonymous account, those interested will talk to you here. Frank101 2 July 2005 20:42 (UTC)
[edit] Racial origin?
A guy I know, who's black, told me that the word "cowboy" originally refered only to black people. White people with the same job were "cowpokes" or some other term I don't remember. This sounds like it could make sense, seeing as black men were routinely and demeaningly called "boy" until relatively recently, but I've never heard this claim before. Does anyone else have info on it? Can it be verified or debunked?
Hello, Yes this is very true. Many people don't know this fact. White men were never referred to as boy or Cowboy they were called Cattle Ranchers. The Black men who did the same thing were called CowBoy because the White Ranchers could not stand to be at the same level of a Black man. But the term Cowboys to refer to Black Cattle Ranchers was somehow phased out when Hollywood enterred the picture. I guess Cattle Rancher movies aren't as appealing as Cowboy movies. I will have to do further investigation as to when this occurred. But Wikipedia needs to do more research of its own. Nita November 7, 2006 1:23pm
[edit] Geography
The article talks of the "North American" cowboy but the word Canada is not in the article at all. It is really about US cowboys. That's fine since the cowboy as icon is strongly associated with the US. However, in Canada, especially Alberta we also have cowboys. This area was once home to open-land ranching and is still a major cattle-producing area. Infact, there are more cattle in Alberta than people. As well, Alberta Hosts the Calgary Stampede and the Canadian Finals Rodeo among others. Canada should at least get a mention.Kevlar67 13:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The main page states that calves are "branded or marked." I live and work on a cattle ranch in northern New Mexico (I suppose that makes me a "cowboy") and the state requires all cattle to be branded (which, I think, is true of most states in the USA): the "or" is therefore not quite correct for many parts of the USA.
Out of 365.25 days a year, a "cowboy" will work cows and calves about 70 days. In late winter and early spring of each year, the calves are ear-tagged and their gender noted; pregnant heifers who have never calved are separated and monitored several times a day and they are helped if they have problems calving. (This year we lost a five-year-old cow and her unborn calf when the calf got "stuck" and there were no people to help her: it is not only heifers who have calving problems.)
Then at the start of May the calves and cows are rounded up and separated: neighbor's cut out their cows (and of course the cow's calves follow) and drive them away to other ranches. The calves are then separated from the cows; the calves get branded on their left hips, and an ear tag crimped onto an ear: bullcalves get castrated and become steers. The cows get inoculated and/or get antibiotics. The bulls, if they will fit in the working chutes, also get inoculations. If pests are a problem, the cows and bulls get sprayed.
In mid-May the herd is driven to their spring and summer grazing. They stay there until fall, when it is once again time for fall round-up. Summer grazing is usually as high in altitude as the rancher can get them: above 8,000 feet is ideal since, with shade, cows and calves can live comfortably.
In the fall, the calves are separated from the cows; the bulls get sent to the bull pastures, the cows are sent to the fall and winter grazing areas, and the calves are loaded onto trailers and taken to the sale barn. Old cows and injured cows are some times loaded up and also taken to the sale barn; when that happens, heifers are selected from the year's calves and sent out with the cows to the fall and winter grazing areas as "replacements."
Every year or two the bulls are replaced for genetic diversity.
Most of a "cowboy's" time is spent mending fences, checking feed and water in the grazing areas, repairing ranch equipment, gardening, shoveling horse shit, grading dirt roads, fixing roofs, etc.... a "cowboy" they can go two or three months and not see a cow and still keep busy.
However, there is also a job known as a "Vaquero" or "calving hand" who spends all summer with the cows and calves, up on mesas or other lonely places. The Vaquero lives alone in a trailer, gets paid almost nothing, and has almost nothing to do but work cows and calves and mend fences. These "cowboys" are usually older men who have worked cattle much of their lives. --Desertphile 00:52, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Sir, I don’t need to wonder if I’m a cowboy or not and I’ll be damned if someone is going to say I “garden,” or “shovel dung,” or “repair fence." I imagine you’re pretty handy with a head shoot and a syringe and a four-wheeler, but some guys are still working like men and you’ve done them a disservice here by describing the absolute degeneration of the trade.
(HH, The Pitchfork, The Arapaho, The Spanish, The IL, The YP, 6666, ZX, Squaw Valley)
You sir, are a beef-farmer.
[edit] Cowpuncher
I'm not quite sure how to bring it into this article, but it seems Cowpuncher should me merged into this article. There's not much information there, but enough to at least make for a sentence or two. I've applied the proper tags according to WP:MM. - Chris 19:57, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- Cowpuncher is a short-enough entry, and in my mind is just another word for cowboy, so I support this merge. Wisekwai 01:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- That sounds right, but a quick google points out there are other slang uses, listed on urbandictionary.com - however my network refused access (don't ask me why), so I can't check whether they actually make a difference. Fastifex 09:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Cowboy vs Knight ?
It seems to me the cowboy in US legends is equivalent to the knight in European legends. Any thoughts on that?Cameron Nedland 02:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Hardly- knighthood (the 'real' one, not honorary orders) was an elitist social caste of warriors, soon mostly noble born and/or enfieffed, serving s crack cavalry and/or endowed with lordships of their own; the legendary 'knights' as in the Arthurian legends are rather anachronistically renamed paladins, romantic heroes that have little in common with real knights. Cowboys on the other hand always were ranchhands, either restricted to the humble hard work of the grazing range, often in pioneer country far from 'organized' civilisation and grand feudal tradition. Fastifex 14:05, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm talking about both legendary versions.Cameron Nedland 22:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
So what? Which legendary knight (just a rmaticized version, a bit more noble and heroic) is like a cowboy, a wouldn't be mortally insulted to be even compared to what he (or his author) would doubtlessly consider an ignorant peasant? Fastifex 08:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Popular Culture
This section looks lost at the moment - suggest removing the image shack link to pictures rather than replacing it correctly formatted. The section seems to have been opened but with no text for some time, well I couldn't find any useful contribution in it, perhaps best removed altogether for now? 4wd 22:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)=4wd
Cheers - better now! 4wd 13 June 2006 (UTC)=4wd
[edit] A New Thread
Hi. The section on working cowboys is misinformed. On a “big outfit,” both cowpunchers South and buckaroos North – do NOT have individualy specialized tasks. they also very rarely do any feeding or fencing as that is the job of lowly “rosin jaws,” or farm crew.
A big outfit cowboy will spend his day riding circles (gathering and trailing cattle to fresh feed), working rodear (holding cattle in a group while one rider enters the herd and separates strays or sickly cattle or heifers about to calve, etc.), shoeing his string, roping and doctoring, roping and branding, roping for the hell of it ... running “shitters,” (mustangs) in the great basin so the B.L.M is reminded of its truck-bound incompetence; breaking colts, breaking legs, drinking hard, cashing 3 months of pay at the casino and blowing it all in one night at the whorehouse ... going out with the wagon ... fighting ... and most of all: a big outfit cowboy spends his day rejoicing in the absolute uniqueness and nobility of his craft .
Until that one day he finds himself on foot and dejected and lost in the modern necropolis, talking to space, and compared to people who cover themselves in corporate slogans and pervert and exploit what is not theirs. Until that time when every open space has been consumed by the goosestep of progress, and the ranches replaced by feedlots, the skilled and hearty replaced by opportunistic weaklings. Until that time when soft people dream of removing the death from life, comfortably numbed with i-pod/pop tart movie poster mind lollipops and downy dreams of unicorns. Until that time when humanity has eclipsed itself binary.
