Talk:Courtney Love
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[edit] Controversy
I didn't finish reading the article but it should be mentioned that some think she killed Kurt and/or Hole's former bassist. In the article it doesn't even mention the death of the former bassist. Also after it talks of Kurt's death it says "She is also a lesbian" which I suspect is vandalism.
The Courtney Love page has been subject to recent vandalism. Be aware.
Well, with all due respect to various theories of conspiracy and skulldugery, I've edited the "Love and Marriage" section to omit some rambling and tacked-on accusations of homicide. This is covered adequately under "controversy". I'm pasting the original text here in case anyone wants to reference it.
A week before the release of Hole's breakthrough album Live Through This, on April 5, 1994, Kurt Cobain passed on he was found in his home in Seattle Washington on the floor with a gun in his hands with an extremely high heroin dosage, it is still questioned to this very day on weather he was murdered or committed suicide there is more evidence backing up a murder however than a suicide Courtneys own hired private investiagtor Tom Grant even believes it was foul play (www.cobaincase.com). Love read his suicide note (which sounded more like a letter to his fans saying he was quitting music, in which the last four lines appeared to have been written by another hand) (via a tape-recorded message) to assembled, mourning fans at a memorial service in Seattle a few days after his body was found.
[edit] Sexism
If you compare this page to Cobain's, the sexist assumptions are obvious. On Kurt's, it begins with his societal accolades, doesn't reference his suicide OR family; on Courtney's it mentions that she survives his death, and has a child, and it even mentions the name of Kurt's band. I had to add the Rolling Stone line to give her SOME semblance of artistry in the opening. Really, I'd like to remove the widow line and move the mention of her daughter to a biography section where it belongs. Theoretically, this woman is in wikipedia because she is an artist. I realize her life is famous as well, but Kurt being famous doesn't cause his famous suicide to be mentioned in his opener. Shouldn't we leave the vulgar assumptions to the vulgar and use an encyclopedia to illuminate the subjects we discuss? In other words, who needs to point out she survives Kurt? It's unnecessary.
To continue on, her biography is interrupted by a sidenote about her romance with Billy Corgan. I'd also like to move that to its proper place.
Lastly, her biography headers are ridiculous. "Life after Rehab"? "Marriage and musical career"? Anyway I'm going to edit these things and I wanted people to know the impetus. This page isn't impartial, it's arranged around obvious cultural bias. On the one hand, I realize the popular perception of her. On the other, from my experience most of her actual fans don't really care about Kurt or Nirvana--her relationship with Kurt is/was more of a prism the fans use to view her artistic work, which is mostly studies in tragedy.
At any rate, again, I wanted to explain why and how I'd like this page to change. Mistertruffles 21:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree,Courtney is far too often portayed as "just the widow" and I think Kurt and Nirvana really dont need to be mentioned till later in the article So awful 10:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)so_awful
[edit] Roddy Bottum
It said that Roddy Bottum of Faith No More hates her to this day... but they've frequently been referred to as close friends, and have worked together within the last few years. So I edited that out.
[edit] Birth name?
Court documents like this one: [ http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/clovefelony1.html ] and BMI website show that her legal name is now Courtney Michelle Love. She's also known as Courtney Michelle Cobain and Courtney Love Cobain.
I changed her birth name to "Love Michelle Harrison" because that is what's given in most articles about her. Feel free to change it back if I'm wrong. Secretcurse 01:59, 10 Jan 2005
I don't know who you believe...but according to Ms.Love's folks her name was NEVER EVER once Love Michelle. It was infact Courtney Michelle. You don't read around do you? Oh and she was born July 9th 1964 not 1965. She lies people. Get used to it. Most famous people do! If you don't know what sites i got it from. There under Hank Harrison and Linda Caroll..in her novel she even speaks of this same subject and says to her daughter: "Courtney if you don't stop you're lying I'll go on national tv and tell them the truth."
- Search here and it says her name at birth was Courtney Michelle Harrison, and the date is 9 Jul 1964.--Fallout boy 12:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Courtney Love was in fact born as Love Michelle Harrison on July 9th, 1964, as written in the (authorized) biography "Courtney Love: The Real Story" by Poppy Z Brite. That part of the article is correct. Blackmorningsun 3:25, 14 September 2006
[edit] Controversy
Someone should most definatly add that one person died and several was hurt badly during one concert in sweden, hultsfred. I think it was 1999
She tried to get the part of Nancy in 'sid and nancy' but she got some smaller role instead. the people making the movie were a bit afraid she was a bit 'too realistic' as nancy, too close to the character!?
the weird thing is that the relationship between sid and nancy is by some said to be similar to the relationship between kurt and courtney.
I disagree. This page is biased enough.
Some of the controversy page is not actually controvsersy, just factoids. I'm going to make other subsets and/or move things around. I also deleted the bit about her website; if there are articles to back this up, fine; otherwise, it's just hearsay. 68.127.22.169 22:25, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Bastard or Hole?
Not that I'm very interested in Courtney Love, but the third paragraph first states that Love's band was called "Bastard." The next sentence states that it was called "Hole." Which was it? —Frecklefoot 19:59, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Hole.. Maybe Bastard
I know she had a band named Hole. As for Bastard, perhaps it was a typo or a previous name for the band (or a previous band). It being a previous name sounds familiar. MardukZero 16:27, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Bastard was a band that never came to fruition that courtney love set up after hole. it included louise post of Veruca Salt fame and patty schemel on drums. I forget who was supposed to play bass.
What also should be mentioned as that a lot of people think of her as an Inger Lorre rip-off. There should be some info/stories on that.
[edit] Courtney is a murderer!
Courtney is a back-stabing cold blooded murdering psycho. She should rot in hell. she had kurt killed, he was not suicidal. Kurt lives Forever!
This is not what discussions are for,
--207.70.141.45 13:56, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)Cecy Martinez
It is worth mentioning that many think of her that way..
[edit] Gay Icon Project
In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 21:07, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Plastic Surgery
I think she deserves a picture and mention of her extensive plastic surgery and how her look has evolved?
[edit] Japan?
In the section on Manga it says, "When Love lived in Japan", but Japan is not mentioned at all in the preceeding text.
This will be remedied. Courtney's time living in Japan was mentioned in Charles R. Cross' "Heavier Than Heaven", a biography of Kurt Cobain which Courtney cooperated with and authorized.
[edit] Accuracy/Neutrality
A lot of recently added information seems questionable and/or biased (i.e. the paragraph on her father). I think the article needs more citations because obviously there's a lot of bull out there about Courtney Love. Tenn 17:33, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
The material on her father is regularly changed back to biased-in-favor-of-her father from more neutral writing (see above).
[edit] Bisexual?
Her name is listed on the bisexual musicians on wikipedia; she is not bisexual, and is definatley not openly bisexual. i don't know how to remove this, but someone should
- I'm responding to the above person. I'm not sure that she is openly bisexual, but in interviews she has talked about being with women. It is strongly rumored she's been with women, in fact several of her fans have claimed such (unverifiable) especially during her last drug phase.
she lost her virginity to a woman, i know that much. it's mentioned in her biography. Rocketqueen 01:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] ULC
Why does someone keep removing her ministerial title? Carolynparrishfan 14:24, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- Because... and I've not been removing it, the Universial Life Church really doesn't make one the theological equivelant of someone who has undergone years of seminal training, IMO.
--cuiusquemodi 00:44, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I guess my take on it is: does she or others usually use the title? I haven't noticed it much in either usage, so I'll leave it off if editors take it off (but am not removing it myself either.) CarbonCopy 23:51, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
- I agree we should only leave it in if she uses the title herself. The ULC may not be the theological equivalent of years of seminal training but it isn't significantly less than what's required in other religions, including Western Reform Taoism. --Yamla 00:13, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Ordination by the Universal Life Church is extremely insignificant, unless she is seriously involved with the church. All you have to do is type your name into their website, and they've "ordained" you and give you a certificate to print up. In High School, everybody I knew got ordained in the school library one afternoon. It's akin to having a one-sentence paragraph in the article stating that she got a decoder ring from a box of cracker jacks in 1978. --relaxathon 07:14, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Jewish
according to Jewish rules, if ones mother is Jewish, then he is also Jewish, so Courtney is Jewish.
- Not in terms of religion, and that's Jewish rules, not legal rules. --FlareNUKE 22:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
-
- But if you read here http://redsea.blogspot.com/..."Sorry, Courtney, you are not Jewish by traditional Jewish religious law because your maternal grandmother, Paula Fox, was not born of a Jewish mother".... Love's mother was not Jewish, even her Grandmother wasn't Jewish...So why is she on the list of Jewish-American Musicians??? --Tom 22:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Scientology
She also talked a lot about Scientology on her site and how much she loved it. I personally saw her writing about how great it was at her message board. Unfortunately it is unverifiable at this time as the original board went down, but the webmaster of that board, Brooke, could most likely verify this.
- I cannot agree or disagree with the above statement because I have never read any such writing on the board by Courtney about scientology, however, in regards to Love's religious beliefs: it is an already established fact that Courtney Love has been practicing Buddhism, on and off, for about two decades. Blackmorningsun 3:39 September 14, 2006
From her posts on hole.com regarding Scientology, which I read at the time, I would argue that Courtney Love's interest in Scientology was rudimentary and pragmatic. She was spending time with some very successful, famous Scientologists and became curious, briefly; she has reiterated this in numerous interviews, most recently in More4's 'The Return of Courtney Love'documentary, directed by Will Yapp: ('I've tried everything. I've been a Catholic, I've been Episcopalian,... I've tried Scientology - I have! - and I really believe that Buddhism is the most transcendent.. path to Enlightenment for me'). The documentary shows Love chanting at her altar, and stating that she tries to chant for an hour each day. Love's Buddhist practice has been a relative constant for decades, as blackmorningsun points out. White hotel 10:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Princess Ai
I think that people should have an article about the manga she co-created, Princess Ai ( BTW Ai mean's love in japanese, & the woman that did character deisgns for the manga is AI yazawa(Sp?), so, it's a pun). Also, in the manga, her lover, Kent is DEFAINATLY a resemblance of Kurt Cobain... Maybe I'm imaginging, or didn't this article have a paragraph on it?
[edit] 1999 Cat fight between Madonna-Courtney
Why isnt this listed. In 1999 Madonna was doing a show when Make Up flys above her! Courtney Love was drunk and came up their. Her and Madonna just kept attacking eachother until Madonna's Agent took her away. Soon Later Courtney Fell of her chair. That should be posted! MarkDonna
The above situation happened during the 1995 MTV Video Music Awards (VMA's). Blackmorningsun
[edit] Suggestion
I am not a big fan of Courtney, but I bumped into her page and it seems a well-written page (although other users above complain about the neutrality of some of its contents). Shouldn't it be nominated as a good article? It seems okay enough or close enough to be one. Any positive/negative comments are welcome. -- Xanthi22 23:01, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Birthplace
Where was she born, and where did she grew up? I scanned the article, but I couldn't see it mentioned anywhere. (but maybe I'm just blind) Isn't that usually stated at the beginning of articles like this? Cine 16:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Dead link
Link 26 "Courtney Love: She definitely wouldn't have apologized at the Grammy's" is dead. Please consider finding another source for the same content or removing link.
- The link has been removed. NickBurns 15:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Re-inserted using {{dlw-inline}} to retrieve the article from the Wayback Machine. If you deleted it for other reasons, please feel free to re-delete, but Wikipedia:Using the Wayback Machine is usually a better alternative to simply deleting a dead link. Xtifr tälk 23:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Picture
That picture does not represent what courtney normally looks like. is there any way we could get a more accurate picture?
[edit] Cleanup
I just went through the article and tried to clean it up a bit, grouping information together by subject, etc. The whole post-rehab section seems to be almost a plug for her. I mean, I'm glad she's sober and all, but the amount of info in the article on work that hasn't even been released seems a bit odd....
Also, although there are many references, there's an awful lot of info in here without sources or references. I removed some of the more obvious examples. NickBurns 15:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Images
Another editor asked me to note here why the images were removed from this article. None of them had the mandatory detailed fair-use rationale justifying their use, except for the main image. The main image was great but recent changes to WP:FUC instigated by Jimbo Wales means we can no longer use non-free images to depict living people, amongst other things. Hopefully we will be able to find a free image to depict Ms. Love. --Yamla 19:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm confused: so what's the rationale behind the new photo? I like it a Hell of a lot better, but is it approved temporarily because it's featured on the artist's website? I'm personally not a huge fan of wiki's overindulgences and would rather find a fan-taken photo and get their permission to have it up. (I assume that fits the new guidelines; correct me if I'm wrong.)Mistertruffles 21:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Restructure
I've reintegtrated some of the Controversy section back into the other sections so it makes chronological sense, since it was a mess before, either with or without subheaders. The cleaned-up 'Legal issues' section, as it now reads, is more of-a-piece, I hope. The Brando controversy now sits in the context of her family history, and the murder conspiracies sit within the Love and marriage section (if they belong anywhere in this article, it's there). I'll expand both of these and tie up loose ends.
Edit to add: Nick, I took out the Doubleday quote because it doesn't strictly refer to family history, only to the content of Carroll's book. I don't think we lose anything by cutting it, really, but if you feel otherwise...
I suggest we think about making a separate 'early musical history' section that deals exclusively with Love's endeavours pre-Hole - there's plenty to choose from - then add a section on Pretty on the Inside. In the UK at least, POTI was considered a breakthrough record at the time.
White hotel 09:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Props
Much to my dismay, Eric Erlandson was not including in the early history / hole section of this article.
As such, I took the liberty of including Eric Erlandson's name in the section about the formation of Hole.
Eric's contributions are often overlooked and I'd rather that not be the case here.
Also, Don Fleming's name was added as co-producer of Pretty on the Inside.
cheers. Abigail trotsky 04:26, 1 November 2006 (UTC) oct.31.2006 - abigail t.
[edit] Viper Room
An interview was published today where she reffered to Depp saving her life while she received CPR in the Viper Room. The date isn't mentioned but it might be worth while inserting it somewhere.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/biography/story/0,,1969244,00.html
(Karst 22:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC))
