Talk:Country music

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Archives
13:57, 5 July 2001 – 02:03, 4 March 2006

[edit] Criticisms

Part of this conversation thread has been archived at Talk:Country music/Archive 1#Criticism.

[edit] Opening the issue again

Having given this issue some time to cool off I am now going to work on readding a description of praises and criticisms of country music. I note that none of my objections to removal have been addressed but I have altered the presentation of the material. Hyacinth 10:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rodgers/Carter

At the moment the article is basically organized as Rodgers v. Carter, with other influences being accorded a lesser role. If we were writing this article in 1950, that might be a reasonable way to proceed (though I'd still be skeptical). However, I think that at this stage it's a bit of a stretch. Western swing is every bit as important as Jimmie Rodgers influence in modern day country, and the Eagles are way more important than the Carter family (no value judgment -- that's just the way it is.) Do other people agree with me, or are people happy with the way the article is currently organized? NoahB 15:41, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I would have to disagree with you. The Carter Family is still influencing music almost 70 years since their first recording (as is Jimmie Rodgers).

I do not dispute the importance of both the Carter Family and Jimmie Rodgers, but I am struggling to understand the two "strands". What makes one distinct from the other? Why is bluegrass music characterised in the Carter Family strand, when Jimmie Rodgers' influence on the music (particularly vocal styles and subject matter) is clearly so strong? This needs a better explanation (with citations, please! It sounds like someone's personal theory) in the article, or should be removed. Cmadler 18:52, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

The analytical split is a commonly made one, we need to find sources. Hyacinth 11:19, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "New Country" seems missing

I take issue with this article's implication that the post-70's "Nashville Sound" is the same things as the 90's-naughties crossover pop-country sound popularized by (among others) Garth Brooks and Faith Hill. I didn't start listening to country til the mid 90s, precisely because it had stopped sounding the way it used to -- well, at least country *radio* did.

And where's Fan Fair??
--Baylink 02:35, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

What is Country Music? I mean what exactly defines it as a genre?

Very good question and the answer is... well, I know it when I see it (to coin a phrase). Rmhermen 15:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

And why aren't we using the word genre, instead of amalgam? Ken 05:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Because it's usually defined as a genre instead of an amalgam. Thus, that would constitute original research. The answer is that nothing really defines country music. It's a social construction and always has been; there are various characteristics that are or have been common in country and not in other genres, but there's nothing that can be considered a definitive characteristic. This is true of most genres of music, I think. Tuf-Kat 22:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opry

I don't think I've ever read a history of country music that didn't discuss the Opry. (and what about Hee Haw!) I just don't know how to rework the structure here. Rmhermen 15:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Its mentioned. Hyacinth 11:17, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Catch-all?

"However, country music is actually a catch-all category that embraces several different genres of music..."

I disagree with the above sentence from the introduction as most of the "genres" listed are subgenres of country music, not seperate genres put under a catch-all umbrella. Hyacinth 10:40, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

The list at Country music#Contemporary country stars 1980-2006 needs to be annotated. Hyacinth 11:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I can't believe nobody else has caught this gigantic glaring problem ...

See also discussion at Talk:Country music#Title.

... which can be summarized by asking: "What country?" Seriously, that's what I ask when people ask if I like "country music".

Now I should say at the git-go that I'm American, and I do like (some) "country" music, so I shouldn't be the one complaining about this, right? Except that some folks here have apparently forgotten that TWIAVBP.

I tried to find this page by typing in "american country music", which is where I'd have expected to have found this, but was astounded when that page came up not found.

That's what this article should be titled, not just "country music", as if the whole rest of the world was somehow incapable of having "country" music of its own, or should bow its head to the greatness and uniqueness of 'Merkin country. So what say we "move" this article there? (Along with setting up appropriate disambiguation pages and all.) ==ILike2BeAnonymous 07:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

The easy solution, which will take you about 2 minutes to do, is to create, on your own, an article called "American Country Music". The only thing you put in the article is a redirect to "Country Music". Then if anyone types "American Country Music" into the seach box, they will end up at the music article. And you will be satisfied.... Hayford Peirce 16:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes, I'm aware of that option, thank you. But what I think ought to be done is to move this article to "American country music". "Country music" should properly be a disambiguation page, though I haven't researched what else would link there. Do you think there is, or would be, resistance to implementing this scheme of things? ==ILike2BeAnonymous 18:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Yer gonna have 2000 'Merkins up in arms. They believe there is only ONE kinda Country music, and it is 'Merkin country music. And I gotta say, I've lived in other countries for 25 years, off and on, and I never heard anyone say "English country music", for instance, nor "musique du pays français", nor "Tahitian country music." Although I will admit that I flew on Air New Zealand once, and one of the sound tracks had *excellent* "New Zealand country music" -- but it was pure imitation of Nashville. But, of course, you can go ahead and make the change. Then head for the tornado cellar.... Hayford Peirce 18:40, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm ready to do it (in a hot New York minute, as they say), except for one detail: the "country music" disambig page. Need to research what would go there. Any ideas? (I'm lazy at the moment.) ==ILike2BeAnonymous 19:43, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Nope, not a clue. Good luck! (You're gonna need it!) Hayford Peirce 20:05, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we could tone down the hyperbole? Hyacinth 23:43, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. We should have an article on country music, which is a style that exists in many countries, as well as articles specifically on country music in places like Australia and Japan. There are genres unrelated to "country music" which are sometimes called "country music", but they aren't listed here. Puerto Rican plena and Thai luk thung, I believe, but these are exceptions with more common and less ambiguous titles available. Tuf-Kat 21:59, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

How about just expanding the existing disambiguation page, and adding articles for these topics there? That would seem to make more sense. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 22:06, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

How does the existing disambiguation page make more sense? We are saying we need a discussion of country music as a whole. Why doesn't that make sense? Hyacinth 01:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, that would work if you believe there actually is some generic entity called "country music" (or perhaps "la musique du pays" or something). I don't think it exists; at least, not in the way that this very identifiable genre known as "[American] country" does. So to me, such an article would make no sense. I think it would be a real stretch to draw parallels between, say, American country and Puerto Rican plena. Which is why a category or disambiguation page makes more sense, as a repository for similar but different things. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 01:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstand -- there are no parallels between "American country music" (which is also Canadian, British and Australian, just to start) and plena. A huge majority of the time, the term "country music" in the English language refers to a specific style of popular music. According to our naming conventions, that means we should have an article on that topic titled country music. My point on plena and luk thung was that they are abnormal exceptions, virtually always introduced as "Plena is a kind of Puerto Rican country music... Plena is... Plena dates to... Plena was... Plena singer" -- in other words, it's called plena, not Puerto Rican country music. That's an issue for country music (disambiguation), which should be dab blocked at country music. It's a curious coincidence that "country music" is used descriptively in two unrelated instances rather than specifically, but that has nothing to do with the ordinary English meaning of the word. Tuf-Kat 01:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

And there is a "generic entity" called "country music" (not sure what you mean by "generic entity", but I think there is). Would you like me to cite sources? Tuf-Kat 01:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Not cite sources, necessarily, but just a general description: give me the fifty-cent tour. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 01:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, since it seems you may know more about this subject than I do, let me ask you this: looking at this from the other way around, what does "country music" mean to non-English speakers? (This is an English encyclopedia, but that, of course, doesn't mean its articles should be limited to an English-speaking point of view.) By the way, I'm going to have to read your comments a couple more times and digest before responding further. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 01:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

What do non-English speakers mean by "country music"? Well, I guess most don't mean anything by it, because it's an English word. Puerto Ricans certainly don't call plena "country music". Do they call it the Spanish equivalent? Not to the best of my knowledge, though that could explain why plena is sometimes described as "country" while other rural music isn't. Definitely, plena is by far the most common word in either language. If non-English speakers actually use the English term "country music", it's probably analogous to how they use "rock" -- i.e. it refers to the same discrete unit it refers to in English. I don't think other languages frequently use translations (e.g. "musique du pays") to mean anything. I suppose it could be effectively synonymous with "folk music" in some languages, or maybe "music of the country" (as opposed to a different country, or as opposed to urban music), but none of these usages would warrant an article. Tuf-Kat 02:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

(via edit conflict with the below section about the French Wikipedia) Okay, the only source I have that covers plena, luk thung and "American country music" is the Rough Guide to World Music, which describes luk thung under a heading "Thai country music", which starts off "When reigning queen Pompuang Duangjan died in 1992 at the tender age of 31, many thought it was the end of an era for pleng luk thung (Thai 'country music')." The rest of that article refers to it as "luk thung", which it translates as "child of the fields". The article on Puerto Rica has a section called "Danza and Plena" which says "Plenas featured prominently in the repertoire of the jibaro (country) artists of the 1930s and 40s". (I'm pretty sure that's an unusual usage) The article on Appalachian folk music is the only part of the books (which cover the music of almost every country in the world) where "country music" is used more than once (referring to "American country music") and in a non-parenthetical or quotational context. Tuf-Kat 02:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll also note that the Spanish version of country music is all about the US and doesn't appear to mention Puerto Rico. There is no Thai article (not that I'd be able to make heads or tails out of it) Tuf-Kat 02:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I've moved this back to country music and made a disambiguation page. Tuf-Kat 00:35, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What "Country Music" means to French Wikipedians

Go to the French Wiki site. Type in "country music". You will be taken to an article called "Musique Country". The first paragraph reads: La musique country, ou country (autrefois « country and western ») est une musique étasunienne née dans les Appalaches et dans le pays profond, du Texas jusqu'en Virginie-Occidentale. Rythmique ou traînante, sentimentale ou émouvante, la country vient des musiques folkloriques celtes des immigrés irlandais et écossais. Cette musique, avec le blues et le rhythm and blues noirs, a fort contribué au développement du rock.

I will take the liberty of giving a rough translation: Country music, or country (before, "country and western" is a United States type of music born in the Applachians and in the backwoods, from Texas to West Virginia. Rhythmic or dragging, sentimental or moving, country comes from the folkloric celtic musics of the irish and scottish immigrants. This music, along with the blues and the negro rhythm and blues, has greatly contributed to the development of rock.

I would suggest that this substantiates what some of the other people have been saying (and with which I am 100% in agreement), that "country music" means, worldwide, in most languages, just exactly what us 'Merkins take it to mean. It doesn't mean back-country music sung by Aussie diggers, or French peasants, or Russian kulaks, or Tahitian fishermen. It means Hank Williams, the Carters, George Jones, and, for all I know, George Strait and all the modern ones. So I, for one, think "American Country Music" ought to be renamed "Country Music", just the way the article on jazz is called "Jazz," not "American Jazz" or "Russian Jazz" or "Cuban Jazz", but just plain "Jazz." Hayford Peirce 02:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed on all points. Out of curiosity, I noted above that, while "French country music" and "Russian country music", for example, don't mean anything (except "American country music played in France"), Puerto Rico and Thailand are exceptions in English, where plena/jibaro and luk thung are sometimes described as "country". In French, is an equivalent term ever used? Tuf-Kat 02:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

If there is, I never heard of it. And no self-respecting Parisian would ever play, or sing, French country music in the first place. I think the closest we would find would be something like "J'aime bien l'ancienne musique francaise folklorique." -- "I like old-fashioned French folkloric music" such as the peasants used to sing in the 14th century or some such. I know that in French conversation, at least with the relatively young, such as my kids, they say, "J'aime bien la contré." By which they mean, "I like (American-style) country music." Hayford Peirce 02:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks. Tuf-Kat

I'd never really considered why "country music" is used in this way, so I thought I'd some googling, and got some surprising results (doesn't change my opinion on what to do with this article though):

Puerto Rican country music - 106 hits
Thai country music - 566 hits
The below appear to be used entirely to mean American style country performed elsewhere
South African - 134
Japanese - 195
Brazilian - 831
Indian - 716 (all of which appear to be about "American style" as performed by Native Americans)
Chinese - 538
Russian - 3340
Other
Finnish - 39
Cuban - 313 (mostly guajira, I think)
Saudi - 18
Nigerian - 2
Armenian - 6
Mexican - 777 (mostly talking about ranchera)
Tahitian - 1

[edit] Golden age?

There is a list of artists from the "golden age" of country music, but from whose perspective was it the golden age?

The reality is that country music's sales peaked in the early 1990s. Modern-era artists, spearheaded by Garth Brooks, enjoyed sales, airplay, concert-attendances, and public profiles that far exceeded those of the vast majority of the artists from the 'golden era'.

Platinum country records did not exist in country music until the 1970s, and then it was outlaw country that smashed the records. Now, popular artists' albums go platinum in 2 weeks and the top 10 artists routinely go 4 and 5 times platinum.

      (Platinum records, period, didn't exist until the 1970s. Record sales were focused on 45 singles until the advent of 'album oriented rock' pioneered by Bob Dylan, the Beatles, and later, The Who, Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd. Giant selling LPs of the 70s included 'Frampton Comes Alive', 'Saturday Night Fever' and 'Eagles Greatest Hits'. Despite this, Peter Frampton, the Bee-Gees and the Eagles remain over shadowed today by the likes of Elvis Presley, the Beatles, Frank Sinatra and the Beach Boys. Album sales are not the only measurement of popularity or legacy!)

With people like Kenny Chesney, Toby Keith, Rascal Flatts, Keith Urban, Faith Hill, and Tim McGraw (and Garth Brooks and Alan Jackson before them) having exposure, sales, airplay, and celebrity status that the 'golden age' artist could only dream of, in what way was the other era 'golden'??

There's a distinct lack of information on modern day country music.

[edit] WikiProject Country Music

I'm trying to round up some volunteers to help kick off WikiProject Country Music. Please see the temporary project page for more information. --Tantalum T e lluride^♪ 00:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Reception" section

This section needs a makeover. Maybe some of it should be split off to a "sociology of country music" article or something - I know know, but it really doesn't fit well with this article.

I've noticed this same problem with a number of the country-music related articles here that they contain some obfuscation-laden, uber-accademic sounding prose - some of which sounds rather post-modernist. (I'm sure this is a problem in other areas of Wikipedia as well, but it really stands out like <pick your favorite cliche> for topics like this one.)

And yes, it's good to cite some scholarly sources, but we can paraphrase from them - if they're dull and bland and no-fun to read then we don't need to repeat their mistakes. And yes, it's good to have inteligent and insightful analysis, but that doesn't mean that the writing style can't be direct, straight-forward, and fun to read. As a matter of fact, obfuscationist-style prose is usually a disguise for the fact that the author doesn't have anything creative or original to say!

ENpeeOHvee 03:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Soundtrack to Domestic Violence"

Does anybody else find this as offensive as I do?

Heh; I kinda like it. Shoe fits, and all that. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 17:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, ya see, I don't think it quite fits; songs like "Years" or "The Gambler" or "He Talks To Me" are so not about domestic violence; yeah, I've heard the phrase before, but perhaps it should be placed later in the article, such as the section on perception of the genre.

[edit] Early Country

While on Archive.org I found an earlier recording of "The wrek of the old 97" by Ernest Thompson (i wikied the name and only found some guy born in 1948 but this song is from 1924, yet this is not in the article at all i just woundered if there was a reason why this thopson guy isnt mentioned in the article here is the URL for the songWrek of 97 1924 version--Familyguyfan1990 04:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] in the South?

The article states that "Country music, also known as country and western music or country-western, is an amalgam of popular musical forms found in the Southern United States." I agree. Country music is just Southern. It is not all American. It might have all of its fans down south, but we should exclude other Americans who live in the North. Therefore, disregard this, I suck. Thanks, (LonghornJohnny 01:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC))

I think you've misunderstood: what the article is saying is that country music is DERIVED from forms of music originally found in the South. It is NOT saying that country music is only limited to the South, or only popular there, just that it CAME OUT OF the South. So I'm going to reinstate the word "Southern". Hayford Peirce 02:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Hayford Peirce. Country music is clearly an "amalgam of" southern popular musics. ("amalgam" might not be the greatest word - though more for its wonkiness than inaccuracy) Tuf-Kat 05:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

This article should discuss more about Patsy Cline's influence on Country music and other country singers to have influenced country music. (LovePatsyCline 01:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)) Why is there not a section devoted to country music and its cultural value and/or effects? Wikichange 05:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I do belive that country music is a ALl American Genre of music it is just the pearson that decides to listen to it or not04:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)TobyKiethbaby

[edit] Country and culture?

Why is there not a section devoted to country music and its cultural value and/or effects? Wikichange 05:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] African-American country section

Am I the only one who thinks that this section is just too long? It seems out of proportion length-wise to the article as a whole. Not to mention that very few sources are cited. Perhaps it should be a separate article?

[edit] Removal of sentences regarding the effect of Line Dancing

Please explain the recent deletion. It was most certainly NOT vandalism. I have been a CW music fan for many years, and only contribute material that is referenced. Chet Akins certainly has knowledge of, and credibilty within the CW music community. Again, please state the reason for the deletion. Steve Pastor 20:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Having gotten no reply to the above question, I have once again added the deleted text, which is a comment on mid 1990s CW music from an industry insider. Steve Pastor 22:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Country vs. Western music

I think this article should explain the differences that once existed between country music and "Western music". From what I've seen, modern western music (cowboy music) is often just referred to as country. When the intro refers to country music as "the first half of Billboard's country and western music category", is this still correct given that everyone seems to refer to modern western music as country? --Cab88 18:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

To me it's still country western. Using that term rather than just country would go a long way to clear up any concerns about which country are you taking about? "Western" would function as an adjective and identify it as uniquely North American. Country Western is pretty much the combination of Eastern mountain music and western "cowboy" music. It is of course more complicated than that, but I think it best if you start with a descriptive name, describe it simply, THEN begin adding information about the complexity of the thing. The referenced item at the beginning of this article should in my opinion not determine the clearest naming and explanation of this music. Steve Pastor 22:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

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