Talk:Counties of Scotland

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This is a merger of content from Traditional counties of Scotland and Administrative counties of Scotland based upon User:Morwen/counties of Scotland. For old talk see Talk: Administrative counties of Scotland and Talk:Traditional counties of Scotland. G-Man 23:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Often Orkney and Zetland (Shetland) were treated as a single county, with Shetland being described an 'Earldom' and Zetland being described as a 'Lordship'.

Should this say "...Orkney being described an 'Earldom'..."? — sjorford (talk) 16:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe the earldom (Orkney) was divided at some stage, by a king of Norway. I forget when. Laurel Bush 11:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC).

Contents 1 Lord Lyon and the Counties 2 Systematic vandalism 3 A fair introduction to the topic 4 New compromise wording by Laurel Bush 5 Zetland 6 Counties in 1846 7 Even newer and hopefully-even-more-compromise wording 8 User:Owain's disruption of Scottish counties templates 9 Local government counties and other counties 10 1870 11 Galloway as a county

[edit] Lord Lyon and the Counties

OK, here's some information which could have a bearing on the existence or not of counties at different periods.

In 1798 Lord Lyon granted arms to the County of Roxburghshire. This of course was long before county councils and the 1890 reforms.

In 1890 these arms were taken over by the county council. This appears to have been recognised by Lord Lyon, who was very quick to stop the wrongful use of someone else's arms. The arms were used by Roxburgh county Council until 1975.

In 1975 the former arms of Roxburghshire were granted to Roxburgh District Council.

As it is unlawful under Scottish heraldic law for two persons or bodies to bear the same arms, it can be assumed that Lord Lyon was satisfied that the County of Roxburghshire no longer existed in 1975. It is also reasonable to believe that the county established by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889 was seen as having replaced the former county extant in 1798.

Any opinions people? Lozleader 20:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Surely arms are only granted to people and corporate bodies, not geographic areas? The original grant in 1798 must have been to an organisation representing Roxburghshire, not the the geographical area. This would explain the transfers to various successor authorities in 1890 and 1975. Owain (talk) 13:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

No. It was granted to "The County of Roxburgh". "The County of Perth" matriculated arms in 1800. The practice in England would require a corporate body, but apparently not in Scotland. In Ireland arms were assigned to three "counties" in the 17th century as well before county councils were thought of.

The grants were apparently so that local volunteer and militia regiments could put something on their standards.

Fox-Davies writing in 1915 had doubts about the grants, but Lord Lyon seemed happy enough.

Lozleader 17:00, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I have doubts too! If that really were the case, then what would have been the point in the county council taking them on if the arms were already available to be used by Roxburghshire organisations? As the Lord Lyon article already points out "The Lord Lyon is responsible for... granting of new arms to persons or organisations" and that "misuse of arms is a criminal offence in Scotland". Surely arms that are available to unspecified organisations contravenes both of those statements? Owain (talk) 10:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I shall contact Lyon Court and see if they can calrify the matter Lozleader 12:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Systematic vandalism

The opening line keeps getting vandalised:

• "Scotland was, until 1975, divided into counties for the purposes of local government and other government functions such as the lieutenancy."

That is a statement of fact: leave it alone.--Mais oui! 12:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

It is not vandalism. It was until 1975, divided into counties for the purposes of local government and other government functions such as the lieutenancy but it remains divided into counties for other purposes. The fact that local government doesn't use counties any more is an irrelevance. You MUST detach the concept of counties from local government areas otherwise you will keep repeating this mistake. Owain (talk) 13:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

This is part of an ongoing campaign to pull the wool over peoples' eyes. Counties have not exited for 31 years: we cannot allow Wikipedia to be made to look foolish.--Mais oui! 13:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid you are the one who is looking foolish. You are clearly mixing up local government use of counties with other uses. Yes, the LG(S)A 1973 divided Scotland up into new local government areas, but so what? They have other uses now, just as they had before 1890. You clearly have a problem with using counties, but please do not enforce your PoV on the wider readership. My edits make it clear that counties were used as local government areas between 1890 and 1975 and therefore that they are no longer used in that way, but they are used in others. This is the real situation whether you want to believe it or not. Owain (talk) 13:54, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Counties are units of local government. You know this and are using it as a method to try to deceive people that they still exist. They do not: they were explictly abolished 31 years ago.--Mais oui! 14:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I note with dismay that this article has yet again been the subject of a POV attack.--Mais oui! 16:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not seeing any vandalism. Just an honest difference of opinion. And counties did not become units of 'local government' (as we now know it) until c 1890. There were county administrative boards before then, but no elected county councils. Laurel Bush 12:30, 16 February 2006 (UTC).

I've been watching this page for a few days with dismay, and felt I should try to offer a third opinion.

I fully agree with Laurel Bush - this is not vandalism, but perhaps is not even a simple clash of POVs - both sides agree the counties have not been used for administrative purposes since 1974, so much is obvious.

The problem lies in the prominence given to the use of counties as geographical descriptors. As this is how the counties came about, the original and long-established use of the word counties, and a use that still goes on to this day, I think it deserves more than a cursory mention in the second paragraph. At the moment, the first paragraph refers only to the use of counties as administrative units, which is not reflective of the full meaning of the term.

I would suggest a consensus rewrite of the first paragraph should be worked out on this talk page, which incorporates the geographical perspective into the existing material. Please leave the first paragraph alone till it's sorted.

If you do edit the rest of the article, please be more careful; why is the date for the establishment of the county-based administrative units being changed each edit from 1889 to 1890? Is anyone checking that there was an exclave that was part of a county as opposed to a stewartry? Or is it just being lazily reverted along with the rest? If you haven't checked it and you can't justify it, it shouldn't be included it in your edit.

If compromise isn't forthcoming, let's go through the proper channels (3O, RfM, etc...) Hopefully it won't come to that though. Aquilina 14:34, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It is lazy reverting on the part of User:Mais oui!. My edit made a number of factual and stylistic changes that are continually being blindly reverted. My opening paragraph is as follows:

This clearly explains their use as administrative areas between 1890 and 1975. The rest of my version of the article corrects a number of PoV statements and other factual inaccuracies, such as the use of stewartry instead of county, whereas not all Scottish counties were originally stewartries.Owain (talk) 14:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

The "counties" (sic) did not originate pre-Union. There was no such thing as a Scottish "county" before the Union. Indeed there is scant evidence of the use of that word to apply to Scottish admin areas before the 19th century, and no indigenous sources. County was an English word applied to the Scottish units of local government, in modern times. How on earth does that make them "traditional"?

User:Owain is running a preposterous POV campaign to try to hoodwink readers into believing that counties still in some way exist in Scotland. They do not. Counties were units of local govt - nothing more or less. Some modern geographical descriptors happen to have the same name as former counties. That does not make the modern use of "Inverness-shire" for example, a reference to a "county" (sic) - it cannot do: the county of Inverness-shire was abolished in 1975. Fife has been a kingdom, mormaerdom, earldom, dukedom, sheriffdom, stewartry, shire, county, region, and now a unitary authority - so how on earth can the use of the word "Fife" possible be described as the on-going existence of a county. Every single Scottish geographical descriptor that happens to share a name with a former county long predates the Victorians' invention of the "counties" of Scotland.--Mais oui! 21:33, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but this is just not true. I takes 5 minutes to do a search on The National Library of Scotland to prove that the words "county" and "shire" were used before the Victorians, and therefore before modern local government in 1890. Why are you not responding to my direct quotes from the Local Government (Scotland) Acts of 1947 and 1975? These are instruments relating to ONE use of the counties, no more, no less. As has been pointed out elsewhere, use of the counties as general geographical designations can never be abolished anyway even if the many other uses were, so plese try and stop your campaign to remove every trace of Scottish counties from Wikipedia. Owain (talk) 08:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The words "county" and shire" when applied to Scottish areas do predate the Victorians, but not by much - apprx 100 years in the case of "shire", but only about 50 years in the case of the word "county". It is clear that the English were trying to squeeze the pre-existing traditional districts into an English/British structure.

The intro says 18th, 19th and 20th centuries, not just Victorian, and that is incontestable: there just did not exist anything called a "county" in Scotland before the late 18th century.

Counties were units of local government, which used pre-existing geographical descriptors. The geographical descriptors are not "counties" - they cannot possibly be: counties were abolished in 1975.--Mais oui! 10:41, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

In agreement with Mais oui!, that the use of "shire" and "county" came into Scottish life as an anglicisation and ceased to exist in 1975 after being created in 1889, although I am neutral on weather the English alone (or indeed, at all) are guilty of "squeezing" the system to fit. There was probably Scots who saw a need to reorganise and create a uniform system across Britain as well as happily adopting the English terminology, like "shire" and "county", to conform. The term "sherifdom" has been used in Scotland for a long time, roughly synonymous with and English shire/county (am I right in thinking the English have "County Courts" rather than Sheriff Courts?) and it was my understanding that the sheriffdoms were used as the basis in creating the Counties of Scotland (as well as taking into account the traditional burghs. e.g. the "Ayr Burghs" becoming Ayrshire). An example being Dundee, a county corporate, became part of Angus ("Forfar-shire" - Forfar Sheriffdom) centred around Forfar sheriff court. Benson85 20:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A fair introduction to the topic

This is a fair introduction to the article:

"Scotland was during most of the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries divided into 34 counties. The counties were abolished as legal entities in 1975 by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, when they were replaced with regions and districts, island council areas and the areas for Lieutenancy.

Although they no longer have any official existence, some of the geographic names used by the former counties remain in use. The Scottish Land Register is organised using the same boundaries as the former counties, but includes Glasgow seperately and combines Orkney and Shetland. The boundaries remained in use in an adapted form as postal counties until 1996.

Some of the geographic names, such as Aberdeenshire, have been revived for the post-1996 council areas, and some of the areas of former counties remain in use as lieutenancy areas and area committees of the present councils.

The areas covered by the counties originated prior to the Union of Scotland with England and Wales. The counties had their origin in the mormaerdoms, sheriffdoms and stewartries created as administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Scotland, generally in the 10th century and 11th century. [1]"

What is the problem with that intro, from your point of view?--Mais oui! 10:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New compromise wording by Laurel Bush

Laurel Bush has just implemented this compromise wording:

Scotland was divided into 34 counties during most of the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. They were abolished as legal entities in 1975 under the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, when they were replaced with regions and districts, island council areas and the areas for Lieutenancy.

Although the counties themselves no longer have official status, some of their names remain in use. The Scottish Land Register is organised using the same boundaries as the former counties, but includes Glasgow seperately and combines Orkney and Shetland. Also, the boundaries remained in use in an adapted form as postal counties until 1996.

Some of the names, such as Aberdeenshire, have been revived for the post-1996 council areas. Some remain in use for lieutenancy areas and for area committees of the present councils.

The county system of subdivision had origins which predate the Union of Scotland with England and Wales, in the mormaerdoms, sheriffdoms and stewartries created as administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Scotland, generally in the 10th century and 11th century. [2]

I think that is fair enough. Does anyone have any specific points they would like to contest?--Mais oui! 13:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Here are my objections to this wording:

• The "during most of the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries" is deliberately worded to make the counties seem like a recent invention, whereas they developed organically from the 12th century onwards.
• Rather than the opening paragraph describing what the counties are and what they are used for, it spends far too much time explaining about their demise as local government areas. This sort of information is better suited further down the page when we have established what we are actually talking about.
• The legal entities abolished in 1973 were only created in 1947 for the specific purposes of local government.
• It makes no mention of the continuing use as geographical areas. As has been mentioned elsewhere, it is impossible to legislate away geographic use. Owain (talk) 17:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

The fact that people still use historic areas for geography does not mean that they still exist, to state that they do is utterly misleading. By your logic we should state that Avon or Strathclyde still exist, because many people still use them for geography. I have no problem with noting that the areas are still in geographic use, but stating that they still exist is incorrect and uterly misleading. G-Man * 20:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I did not say "people use them for geographic purposes, therefore they exist", I said that it should be mentioned in this article that people do so. Why do you suggest that stating that they exist is incorrect and utterly misleading? The fact is that the legal entities abolished in 1975 were only created in 1947. Owain (talk) 20:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Two Questions: 1. If, as Mais oui! claims, counties did not exist before the victorians, what act or acts created them as they were used prior to the effects of the act of 1889? This strikes me as a rather important detail. 2. Did or did not the 1947 or 1973 Local Government (Scotland) Acts repeal the 1899 LG(S)A? If the answer to 2. is yes, then they probably technically exist if the answer to 1 has not be repealed. If not, then they probably do not technically exist. If someone would like to research this, it may put an end to this argument. Stringops 18:22, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I changed the article in line with what I believe to be a fair account of the case. So not Victorian, nothing to do with acts of Parliament in 1889 or 1947, but "things" which had existed for a long time and which evolved at different speeds in different places. "Things" which served multiple purposes: first the area that sheriffs worked in, then sending Commissioners to the Scots Parliament, then electing MPs to Westminster, and then local government. Comments about anglification deleted. If most counties end in -shire, it doesn't take an anglicising conspiracy to have all counties get -shired. No matter how bizarre Fifeshire, Forfarshire and Buteshire appear (true also of Somersetshire, so it's not just Scotland), they have plenty of usage behind them (1708-whenever), which counts for more than any amount of WP:OR. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zetland

• Why is Shetland call Zetland here? Astrotrain 15:20, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

That was its name I believe. Innse Chait (Old Irish/Pictish; "Islands of Cats/Catmen")-> Hjaltland (Norse; "Land of Cat") -> Zetland (Scots; pronounced Zhetland; cf Menzies) - > Shetland, renamed I heard once (during the war?) because Zetland looked too German. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 18:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Counties in 1846

Being an inquisitive fellow, I just spent some time going through the two volumes of Samuel Lewis's Topographical Dictionary of Scotland (1846) to see what he had to say about the counties at the time, and it turned out to be quite interesting. The following were the counties at that time:

• ABERDEENSHIRE

The county has eight districts: Aberdeen, alford, Deer otherwise Buchan, Ellon, Garioch, Kincardine-O'Neil, Stratbogie, and Turriff; in each of which, under the super-intendence of a deputy lieutenant, the county magistrates hold regular courts.

• ARGYLLSHIRE

The county consists of the districts of Argyll, Cowal, Islay, Cantyre, Lorn, and Mull; and is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff-depute, by whom three sheriffs-substitute are appointed, who reside respectively at Inverary, which is the county town, at Campbelltown, and Tobermory.

• AYRSHIRE

The county contains the districts of Cunnnghame, Kyle, and Carrick...

• BANFFSHIRE

The county contains the districts of Boyne Enzle, Strath-Doveron, Strathaven, Balvenle, and part of Buchan,

• BERWICKSHIRE

Contains the districts of Merse, Lammermor, and Lauderdale.

• BUTESHIRE
• CAITHNESS-SHIRE

Contains the districts of Wick and Thurso, where the quarter sessions are held alternately, Wick being the seat of the sheriff court.

• DUMBARTONSHIRE

The various courts are held at Dumbarton, which is the county town...

• DUMFRIES-SHIRE
• EDINBURGHSHIRE, or MID LOTHIAN

The county originally occupied the central portion of the ancient province of Lothian, or Loudon, and from this circumstance it obtained the appellation of Mid Lothian, by which it is still often designated. For civil purposes, it was first erected in the reign of David I., and is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff, by whom two sheriffs-substitute are appointed...

• ELGINSHIRE or MORAYSHIRE

For civil purposes joined with the shire of NAIRN under one sheriff, who appoints a sheriff-substitute for both.

• FIFESHIRE

The county anciently formed part of the extensive district of Ross, which derived its name from its peninsular shape, and included the present counties of Kinross and Clackmannan, with portions of the counties of Perth and Stirling, all under one common jurisdiction. The lands of Clackmannan were first separated from the district and erected into a distinct county; and subsequently in 1425, that portion forming the head of the peninsula was made a county under the appellation of Kinross. The remainder, including a small part previously belonging to Perthshire, almost entirely constitutes the modern county of Fife. The shire is divided into the districts of cupar, kirkcaldy, St Andrew's, and Dunfermline; a sheriff court is held at Cupar for the three first-named, and one at Dunfermline for the last-mentioned district.

• FORFARSHIRE, For civil purposes it is divided into the districts of Forfar and Dundee, in each of which towns is a sherriff-substitute.
• HADDINGTONSHIRE,..likewise called East Lothian...

In civil matters, the district, for a very long period, was merely a constabulary subject to the jurisdiction of the sherriff of Edinburgh; but in the reign of James II. of England and VII. of Scotland was erected into an independent county.

• INVERNESS-SHIRE, For civil purposes, it is under the superintendence of four sherriffs-substitute, appointed by the sheriff, and who hold courts respectively at Inverness, Fort-William, Skye, and Long Island.
• KINCARDINESHIRE, or THE MEARNS

With the counties of Aberdeen and Banff, it constitutes the Eastern, or Aberdeen circuit for justiciary purposes, and the courts are held in the former county twice a year, in spring and autumn.

• KINROSS-SHIRE

Prior to the year 1426, the greater portion of the county was part of that of Fife; and for a considerable time after its separation, it contained only the parishes of Kinross, Orwell, and Portmoak; but in 1685 were added the parishes of Cleish and Tulliebole, and some small portions of the county of Perth. It remained, however, notwithstanding this accession of territory, under the jurisdiction of the sherriff of Fifeshire till the year 1807, when, conjointly with Clackmannan, it was erected into a sheriffdom. For civil purposes, it is under the superintendence of a sheriff-substitute, who resides at Kinross, the county-town, where all courts are held...

• KIRKCUDBRIGHT, STEWARTRY of, a county...

The Stewartry of Kircudbright was for some time included in the county of Dumfries, and was under the jurisdiction of the same sheriff; but every vestige of this connexion was lost prior to the the time of Charles I., since which period it has to all intents formed a distinct and independent county, though still retaining its ancient appellation. For civil purposes it is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff, or stewart, by whom a stewart-substitute is appointed.

• LANARKSHIRE

In the reign of James I., a portion of Start-Cluyd was separated from the county of Lanark, and formed into the county of Renfrew. For civil purposes, the county is divided into the Upper, Middle and Lower wards, under the jurisdiction of three sherriffs-substitute, who reside respectively at Lanark, Hamilton and Glasgow.

• LINLITHGOWSHIRE

...in the reign of David I, this district of the Lothians was erected into a separate sherrifdom. The civil affairs are transacted at Linlithgow, which is the county-town...

• NAIRNSHIRE, a county...

In civil matters, it and Elginshire are under the jurisdiction of one sheriff, but it has a resident sheriff-substitute for itself.

• ORKNEY ISLANDS, a group forming, with that of SHETLAND, a maritime county...

For civil purposes, Orkney, which was previously a county of itself, has, since the passing of the act for amending the representation, been united with with Shetland, under the jurisdiction of one sheriff, by whom two sheriff-substitutes are appointed. One of these holds his courts weekly at Kirkwall.

• PEEBLESSHIRE, or TWEEDDALE

For civil purposes the county was originally under the jurisdiction of two sheriffs, one of whom resided at Traquair, and the other at Peebles; but since the abolition of heritable jurisdictions, it has been under one sheriff only, by whom a sheriff-substitute is appointed, and who holds his several courts at Peebles, which is the shire town.

• PERTHSHIRE

It was anciently divided into the districts of Monteith, Gowrie, Perth, Strathearn, the Stormont, Bredalbane, Rannoch, Balquhidder, and Atholl, all of which were stewartries under the jurisdiction of the great landholders to whom they gave titles, but which, since the abolition of heritable jurisdictions, have ceased to be under any peculiar authority. Two sheriffs-substitute are appointed by the sheriff, who reside respectively at Perth and Dunblane; and for civil purposes the county is divided into the districts of Perth, Blairgowrie, Weem, Culross, Auchterarder, Crieff, Dunblane, Carse of Gowrie, and Coupar-Angus, in each of which petty-sessions are held by the magistrates, and quarterly small-debt courts by the sherrifs-substitute.

• RENFREWSHIRE

The district of Renfrew anciently formed part of the county of Lanark; but in 1404, Robert III. erected the lands of Renfrew, with the other estates of the Stuart family, into a principality, which became hereditary in the eldest sons of Scottish kings; and the barony of Renfrew was separated from the shire of Lanark, and constituted an independent county. For civil purposes it is divided into the upper and lower ward; the sheriff court for the former is held at Paisley, and for the latter at Greenock. The quarter-sessions are held at Renfrew, which is the shire-town...

• ROSS and CROMARTY, two counties in the north of Scotland, of which the several districts, mutually interjacent, are under the jurisdiction of one sheriff...

For civil purposes they are under the superintendence of three sheriffs-substitute, one of whom holds his courts at Cromarty and Tain, another at Dingwall and Fortrose, and the third at Stornoway in the island of Lewis. Ross and Cromarty include the districts of Ardross, Easter Ross, Ardmcanach or the Black Isle, Kintail, Strathcarron, and the greater part of the Isle of Lewis.

• ROXBURGHSHIRE

For civil purposes, it is divided into the four districts of Jedburgh, Kelso, melrose, and Hawick...

• SELKIRKSHIRE
• SHETLAND, or ZETLAND, ISLANDS, forming, with Orkney, a maritime county...

For civil purposes the islands are united with those of Orkney, forming one county under the jurisdiction of a sheriff-depute, who appoints two sheriffs-substitute, one for each of the districts.

• STIRLINGSHIRE

For civil purposes it is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff-depute, who appoints a sheriff-substitute.

• SUTHERLANDSHIRE

For civil purposes, the county, once a portion of the sheriffdom of Caithness, has been separated from that shire, and erected into a distinct sheriffdom, of which Dornoch, as the county town, is the seat of court.

• WIGTOWNSHIRE

For civil purposes the county is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff-depute, by whom a sheriff-substitute is appointed, who resides at Wigtown, the county-town...

Also two cities were counties of themselves (and headed by a Lord Provost):

• EDINBURGH

Sheriff appointed to the City and Liberties by James III.

• GLASGOW, a city... having separate jurisdiction, locally in the Lower ward of the county of LANARK...

...and in 1690 by charter of William III., the citizens received all the privileges of a ROYAL BURGH, with rights and immunities as full and free as those of Edinburgh. Under this charter... the government of the city is vested in a lord provost...

On further research it turns out that Dundee only became a county of a city in 1894 [3] and Aberdeen in 1900 [4], which I hadn't realised.

It's interseting to see that joint county administration was in force long before the 1889 or 1929 Acts.

Lozleader 17:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Err ... Yes. I am wondering what happen to county consituencies as county boundaries were redrawn, eg when county councils were created circa 1890. Also, the above has me wondering about what to make of the allocation of burghs to counties in District of Burghs. Laurel Bush 17:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC).

Nothing happened to county constituencies, as the areas for county councils were different. Section 95 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889 states: "Nothing in this Act, nor anything done in pursuance of this Act, shall alter the limits of any parliamentary county or burgh or division, or the right of any person to be registered as a voter or to vote at any parliamentary election, or the limits within which the valuation roll for a county or burgh is made up" Owain (talk) 19:37, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes. The same happened in respect to the English and Welsh LGA 1888. The reason being, I suppose, that they had only just redistributed the seats in 1885. When they got round to the next redistribution in 1917/1918, the new boundaries were used. Parliamentary boundaries always seem to be playing catch-up. The 1979 and 1983 elections, for instance used the pre 1974 and 1975 admin counties.

I'm wondering what the "districts" referred to in the 1846 text above were, exactly. Judicial divisions? I have seen written statements such as "Huntly is the capital of Strathbogie". What does that mean exactly? The place where courts were held? This now makes *four* different kinds of Scottish "Districts":

• The Districts as listed above (not all counties seem to have been divided)
• The Districts administered by district committees of County Councils 1890 - 1929
• The Districts administered by District Councils 1929 - 1975
• The Districts (subdivisions of regions) 1975 - 1996.

Lozleader 09:59, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I seem to remember entities called 'district courts', below the level of sheriff courts. I believe they still exist and imagine there may be officially defined districts, of one sort or another, even as I write. Laurel Bush 11:36, 22 February 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Even newer and hopefully-even-more-compromise wording

The compromise wording is a big improvement on the previous text, but I agree with one of Owain's points about the opening paragraph - we start talking about the abolition of the administrative areas before we even put our finger on what they are, or how they evolved! The ordering seems somewhat backwards to me for an article specifically on the counties - the present order is more suited to the History of Local Government in Scotland article.

It would be nice to incorporate some of the material from the current fourth paragraph into the first, to give the introduction a more natural chronological progression of ideas: as a rough first draft, I'd propose the following -

Scotland has had thirty-four historic subdivisions, known as counties. The use of these counties evolved over several centuries, as both formal administrative units (now legally abolished) and as informal geographical descriptors.

The county system of subdivision had origins in the mormaerdoms, sheriffdoms and stewartries created as administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Scotland, generally in the 10th century and 11th century (i.e. predating the Union of Scotland with England and Wales). [5]

During the course of the 18th century 19th century, these counties were amended during the establishment of county councils, followed by further minor changes during the early 19th century 20th century. This ultimately led to the establishment in 1947 of new administrative units, known as "counties".

These administrative areas were abolished as legal entities in 1975 under the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, however, and were replaced with regions and districts, island council areas and the areas for Lieutenancy.

Although the counties now no longer have official status, some of their names and boundaries have been adapted for use in other contexts. The Scottish Land Register is organised using the same boundaries as the former counties, but includes Glasgow separately and combines Orkney and Shetland. Also, the boundaries remained in use in an adapted form as postal counties until 1996.

As for the county names, some such as Aberdeenshire have been revived for the post-1996 council areas. Others remain in use for lieutenancy areas and for area committees of the present councils. Occasionally, the old county names are also still informally used as geographic descriptors.

Comments and improvements invited please! Aquilina 17:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

No. You are trying desperately to introduce the present tense of the verb. Nice try, but Wikipedia is not a free advertising space for members of County Watch. On absolutely no account should the counties of Scotland be referred to in the present tense: they have been, they no longer are, they once were, they are as dead as... a parrot, for example.--Mais oui! 18:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

erm... apart from in the first line, (has -> had) where else do you have the present tense inappropriately? I'm happy to change that use, and one instance does not a "desperate attempt" make.

"Desperate attempt", "nice try" and the allusion that I'm advertising for County Watch (an organisation with whom I do not agree, and of which I am a not member) do not display particularly good faith (WP:AGF). Please try discussion before accusation; if there'd been more discussion in the first place, we wouldn't have had the destructive edit war of a week ago. Aquilina 18:57, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Re the third paragraph - do you have your centuries right? County councils only appeared at the close of the nineteenth century...Lozleader 20:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes Lozleader, you're right - they should read nineteenth and twentieth centuries respectively. I'll edit that in now... further proof-reading is very welcome! What do you think of the rewrite? Aquilina 22:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems pretty even handed and factual. To me. Lozleader 23:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your input - I've tried to find a middle ground. Anyone else? The more people comment, the happier we can be that what we eventually add to the final article is consensus... Aquilina 23:16, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Following a request at my Talk from Aquilina I have responded in detail to his/her proposal. It looks a bit messy, but I am trying to show and explain every change to their original:

During the 19th and 20th centuries Scotland has had thirty-four [number varies between 33 and 34: so best left out of opening line] historic subdivisions known as counties. The use of these counties [they were not always "counties"] subdivisions of Scotland had evolved over several centuries, with the English word "county" only being applied to them in the modern period. as both formal administrative units (now legally abolished) [their only purpose was as "formal administrative units"] and as informal geographical descriptors [the counties were named after long-standing, traditional geographical descriptors - not the other way round].

The system of subdivision which became called counties had origins in the mormaerdoms, earldoms, sheriffdoms and stewartries created as administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Scotland, generally in the 10th century and 11th century (i.e. long predating the Union of Scotland with England and Wales in 1707). [6]

During the course of the 19th century, these counties were amended during the establishment of county councils, followed by further minor changes during the early 20th century. This ultimately led to the establishment in 1947 of new administrative units, known as "counties". [incorrect: Scottish counties were created in legislation in 1889, not 1947]

The Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889 established county councils in Scotland. These administrative areas were abolished as legal entities in 1975 under the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, however, [redundant] and were replaced with regions and districts, island council areas and the areas for Lieutenancy.

Although the counties now no longer have official status [counties no longer have any status: the names are not the counties] Some of their names and boundaries, which long predated the application of the word "county" to them, have been adapted for use in other contexts. The Scottish Land Register is organised using the same boundaries as the former counties, but includes Glasgow separately and combines Orkney and Shetland. Also, the boundaries remained in use in an adapted form as postal counties until 1996.

As for the county names, some such as Aberdeenshire have been revived for the post-1996 council areas. Others remain in use for lieutenancy areas and for area committees of the present councils. Occasionally, the old county names are also still informally used as geographic descriptors. [this is a fundamental distortion of the truth: these names long predate the counties]

Note: we do not necessarily have to describe the word "county" with the adjective "English": it could just as technically accurately be described as "Norman", "Anglo-Norman", or "continental European". However, in this context (the UK in the Modern period) I think that the word "English" is the most accurate and the least confusing. The important point is that we must make crystal clear that the word "county" is not an indigenous Scottish word (indeed, as Margaret Thatcher pointed out shortly before her resignation, the word "county" is entirely alien to England too, because England never had counts, but I seriously digress... ) That is my contribution for now.--Mais oui! 02:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Your opening sentence is still trying to narrow down the dates too much. I prefer Aquilina's "Scotland has thirty-four historic subdivisions, known as counties. The use of these counties evolved over several centuries, as both formal administrative units (now legally abolished) and as informal geographical descriptors.". Regardless of whether it happened the other way around or not, the administrative units DID become used geographically, and as that's what we're talking about in this article it seems a fair point to make.

During the course of the 19th century, these counties were amended during the establishment of county councils, followed by further minor changes during the early 20th century. This ultimately led to the establishment in 1947 of new administrative units, known as "counties".. Desite your protestations to the contrary, this is actually true and an important point to make. The legal entities that were abolished by the 1973 Act were created by the 1947 Act, explicitly as local government areas. Owain (talk) 13:20, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

"Regardless of whether it happened the other way around or not... " That is hardly a very constructive starting point when we are striving to draft an NPOV intro.

The subdivisions are "historic", but the temporary application of the word "county" to them most certainly was not: it was a neologism.

"... the administrative units DID become used geographically..." No, that is false: the pre-existing geographical, and administrative, units DID become administrative units called "counties", in 1889 to be precise. To show how bizarre your contention is, try this examply: "the county of Caithness subsequently became the name for a geographical area". No, no, no, no, no! Again no!! Caithness, ... and Fife, Lanarkshire, Shetland, Moray, Ayrshire, Midlothian, Argyll, Ross, Berwickshire, Angus, Sutherland, Clackmannanshire, Orkney etc all long, long predate the use of the word "county" in Scotland. Even the redundant, Anglified application of the word Germanic word "shire" to certain areas, eg Sutherlandshire (literally "Southernlandland"), Caithnessshire, Fifeshire, Edinburghshire, Forfarshire, Argyllshire, Morayshire also long predates the introduction of counties to Scotland.

Your contention that counties were a 1947 !! invention is just too bizarre for words. It is already there, in black and white, in the 1889 legislation.--Mais oui! 13:44, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

You are deliberately missing the point. The point I am making is that people have used the counties as geographical areas. It doesn't matter how they came about, or what they were based on originally. the pre-existing geographical, and administrative, units DID become administrative units called "counties", in 1889 to be precise. I know that, and the point I am making is that THEY went on to be used geographically.

I am not saying that counties were invented in 1947 and you well know that. What I am saying is that the legal entities that were abolished in 1975 were invented by the 1947 Act. As usual you seem to have a problem detaching the geographical area from a legal entity. Owain (talk) 13:53, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

No. Scottish people have continued to use names, and cultural concepts of belonging and geography, that have existed in Scottish society for hundreds, in some case thousands of years. For an awful long time before the invention of counties.

"It doesn't matter how they came about... " It may not matter to you, but it most certainly does matter to Wikipedia: this is an encyclopedia we are trying to build. Encyclopedists are not noted for believing that etymology "doesn't matter".

"...that THEY went on to be used geographically" Contrary to your assertion, THEY are not the counties. They cannot possibly be, because all Scottish counties were explicitly abolished in 1975, with some remaining minor uses dying off in 1996.

"As usual you seem to have a problem detaching the geographical area from a legal entity." On the contrary: it is you who keeps trying to label ancient Scottish subdivisions as "counties" (sic), 31 years after the abolition of Scottish counties.--Mais oui! 14:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Scottish people have continued to use names, and cultural concepts of belonging and geography, that have existed in Scottish society for hundreds, in some case thousands of years. For an awful long time before the invention of counties. Examples? When you fill in a address form, what do you put in the "County" field?

It may not matter to you, but it most certainly does matter to Wikipedia. Again you are missing the point. I am saying for the perspective of people USING these geographical areas and calling them counties (which they do) then it is unimportant.

Contrary to your assertion, THEY are not the counties. They cannot possibly be, because all Scottish counties were explicitly abolished in 1975, with some remaining minor uses dying off in 1996.. Your grasp of terminology is letting you down again. The 1975 Act abolished the local government areas that were created in 1947. Please read the legislation. The Royal Mail have stopped mandating the use of Postal counties but at the same time they added traditional counties to the Alias File. That would seem to me like an increase of uses. In any case, nobody can abolish human geography.

it is you who keeps trying to label ancient Scottish subdivisions as "counties" (sic), 31 years after the abolition of Scottish counties.. Wrong again. There are a lot of overlapping ancient subdivisions and I am not mixing and matching, but using one well-known fixed set of subdivisions for their primary purpose - i.e. geographically. So local government used them between 1890 and 1975 - yes that is a point worthy of inclusion in an encylopædia, but it is not a reason to believe that they no longer exist and to try and remove all trace of them from Wikipedia. Owain (talk) 14:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I think you have a concept of 'existence' which is utterly different from most people. The counties (or whatever they were called) were established as areas for various types of administration and official purpose. As were the counties in England and Wales, they werent invented for the fun of it. They no longer have any official purpose or existence, they are for all practical purposes defunct. You and your traditional counties friends, attempts to claim that they still 'exist' due to some obscure legal technicality, frankly don't convince. I for one have no objection to noting that some defunct subdidvision is still used for geography and as an area name (if this is the case). But let us not pretend that they still exist in any meaningful sense. G-Man * 20:53, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you are probably right - most people equate the existence or not of a corporate body that uses the names and borders of the counties, as existence or not of the county itself. That is regrettable. Of course counties weren't established just for one purpose but for a multitude of purposes (including Land registration). If we are to believe that the county doesn't exist just because there is no local government corporate body by the name of "X county council", then there has never been a Yorkshire, and worse still, the beloved Greater Manchester doesn't exist! Owain (talk) 09:39, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User:Owain's disruption of Scottish counties templates

After having lost his arguments here, User:Owain has taken to attempting to pull the wool over readers' eyes over at the templates for Scottish counties, by replacing "former" (which they are) to "traditional" or "historic" (which they most certainly are not - having been invented in the modern period and abolished in 1975):

• Template:Infobox Scotland place with map
• Template:Infobox Scotland place

I urge all Users who care about factual accuracy here at Wikipedia to assist me in my attempt to prevent User:Owain (and User:Astrotrain, the less said about the better) from pulling the wool over readers eyes on this topic.--Mais oui! 15:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing it to Talk. I can see merit in both sides of this argument - my friend Eric always stated that he was born in the Kingdom of Fife, I know passions run deep. Just zis Guy you know? 15:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Having lost the argument? I don't think so, I just think that continual edit warring is nonproductive. You are the one that changed "historic" to "former" with no dicussion as well as many other underhand tactics. A discussion has been opened at Wikipedia_talk:UK_Wikipedians'_notice_board#Traditional_counties_revisited. Owain (talk) 10:10, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Local government counties and other counties

I note the request for expert opinion now heading the article. Not sure what sort of expertise might be helpful.
Seems to me county has a variety of different meanings depending on time and context, but it is now most closely associated with local government areas as defined under legislation dating from the late 19th century. A page called Counties of Scotland (disambiguation) might be helpful.
The idea that counties were simply abolished, for all purposes, in 1975, seems contradicted by the current content of Registration county. And I get the impression that registration counties may never have had the boundaries of counties for other purposes.
Laurel Bush 10:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC).

Indeed. the 1890-1975 description is simplistic and wrong. They existed before 1890 for purposes other than local government and they continue to exist beyond 1975 for purposes other than local government. Owain (talk) 12:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

And yet, for almost all of that time they were not commonly (or, it seems, officially) called X-shire. Given that the nomenclature you want to use rests largely on the 1889 Act, you are shooting yourself in the foot when you say they existed prior to 1889. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

"X-shire" is a description in the same way that "County of X" is. The Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889 does absolutely nothing to rename local government counties as X-shire as the counties were already commonly referred to that way. In fact various other Acts quoted by that Act include the "Aberdeenshire Roads Act, 1865", "Banffshire Roads Act, 1866", &c. Owain (talk) 19:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't recall any sources for this. Nor do two pieces of evidence don't constitute "commonly". I already posted more refs than that for the formula "in the county of X". What are we to make of "in the County of Berkshire" ? That rather suggests that "in the county of X" cannot be be quite like X-shire, or does Berkshireshire exist ? Where can we debate moves to Middlesexshire and Westmorelandshire (well, why not, Rutlandshire is used after all) and Somersetshire ? Or is your interested in "accurate" names as inconsistent as your preference for Morayshire over Elginshire appears to demonstrate ? Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I think these articles should live in the namespace of their most common name that refers specifically to what the article is about. Can you provide any evidence that the shireless names are more common as references to the counties than the shire-ed names?

I do also think that Bute is a special case, because it is also the name of an island. If there is no consensus to move it back to Buteshire, then it at least ought to moved to County of Bute or Bute (county), and Bute either made a disambiguation page or a redirect to Isle of Bute. What are you thoughts on this? Stringops 15:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Sources for what? I have no problem with the "County of X" nomenclature, but you continue the argument to an illogical conclusion. "County of Berkshire" is wrong - it is either plain "Berkshire" or "County of Berks". There is nothing gramatically wrong with Westmorlandshire or Middlesexshire but these forms are rarely, if ever used. In the same vein I have no problem with Morayshire or Elginshire, as the article itself points out both names, but the article has to sit at one name or the other! There are already redirects from Elginshire to Morayshire, so where's the problem? Owain (talk) 18:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1870

I found reference at [7] to 'The Inverness and Elgin County Boundaries Act', which made exchanges between the counties of Inverness and Moray. Morwen - Talk 11:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

That's right, there was. I could have sworn I'd put that on some page or other, but all I can find is one parish noted at list of civil parishes in Scotland. Lozleader 12:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

This might help [8] Lozleader 12:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Galloway as a county

"The London encyclopaedia" (1839) has this to say on the topic of Galloway:

GALLOWAY, in geography, a county of Scotland, which is divided into two districts; the western, called Upper, and the eastern, Lower.

GALLOWAY, LOWER, or the Stewarty of Kirkcudbright: see KIRKCUDBRIGHT.

GALLOWAY, UPPER, or the county of Wigton. See WIGTON.

Unfortunately Google's scan of this book breaks somewhere around page 800 and I can't look up KIRKCUDBRIGHT and WIGTON in it.

Morwen - Talk 14:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Seems likely. The New Statistical Account has a General Observations section on Wigton (v. 4, pp. 218ff.), it says:

Wigtonshire is sometimes called West Galloway, or the shire of Galloway, or more briefly, the shire; the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright being denominated East Galloway; the two are known by the common name of Galloway.

Google books finds things like "The chief town of East-Galloway is Kircudbright, on the river Dee; and the capital of West-Galloway is Wigton, on the sea-coast" (1828); "Kirkcudbright, or East Galloway" (1834); "KIRKCUDBRIGHT or EAST GALLOWAY" (1842); "sometimes called Upper or West Galloway" (1831); "Galloway, a district of Scotland, now divided into East and West Galloway" (1821); "GALLOWAY, LOWER, or the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright" (1839). Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

(...wandering in to this page from here...) I would add that the content is probably useful in a historical context - those definitions certainly aren't currently used (probably pre WW I/II). SFC9394 21:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)