Talk:Copland

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[edit] Title? and rewrite

I'm not sure that this article shouldn't be under the page Copland_Project. There are many more internal links to Copland the composer, all the ones I have checked link to Aaron_Copland and avoid confusion, but it is common to refer to a composer by just their surname.

The Copland project is also discussed on the Mac_OS_X page, so there might be scope for a merger.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Solipsist (talk • contribs) 11:22, 17 March 2004 (UTC)

I think you're right that the page should be renamed, but perhaps Copland_OS would be more suitable than Copland_Project. I reviewed this page a number of times while researching the topic, and I think the page could use a major re-write to make it more focused, concise, and a bit more objective. --MFNickster 06:30, 21 April 2004

Why not use Mac OS 8 (Copland) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.205.90.122 (talk • contribs) 20:58, 26 April 2005 (UTC)

I agree this page needs a rewrite; the phrase "provided an opportunity for Apple's soul - Steve Jobs - to return" especially wrankles. I doubt handing Apple over to Jobs was one of Amelio's objectives... Corvus 02:23, 13 September 2004
Major rewrite. New section headers. Some objectivity fixes. Reference to "soul" deleted. New to Wikipedia, would appreciate some feedback. --Hadley 04:06, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Great rewrite, Hadley! You've turned it into a much more substantial article. Some of it comes across as being commentary rather than informational, though. I would like to try ironing it out a little, if it's okay with you. --MFNickster 06:18, 2 November 2004

Kudos to Maury Markowitz, for adding a ton of information I didn't know. This article is looking much better. Thank you, MFNickster.--hadley 19:49, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Code Names

These code names are incorrect. Apple had both external and internal code names. In part, the ideas was that an overheard conversation would be harder to connect to the actual project if people inside the company used an entirely name. For example, Copland was known as "Maxwell," Gershwin was known as "Edison," and System 7.5 was "Capone," because "Capone shot up Chicago." "Mozart" was a code name quickly pulled from a list in Developer Support shortly prior to the first seed release of System 7.5. "Mozart" had been used for dozens of projects over the years and the lack of a specifically planned external code name was indicative of how little attention the Capone project received internally because of the immense focus on Maxwell. Clearly code names are interesting to readers or the mention of Mozart wouldn't be relevant, but is this level of detail really interesting? Alexr wiki 18:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Screenshots to be available soon.

I have a computer that I am installing the DR0 and DR1 releases of Copland on, so I will have some screenshots of this not-terribly-impressive OS in action :) Goat-see 28 June 2005 21:30 (UTC)

[edit] The released Mac OS 8

Eventually they released a number of such upgrades as Mac OS 8, in order to deliver on their promise of having something called Mac OS 8 running on all existing machines and thereby avoiding a lawsuit.

This says that Tempo was only called version 8 for legal reasons, which seems rather odd; is it suggesting that they should have frozen the version number at 7.x forever just because they couldn't deliver the 8.0 they had planned? David Arthur 22:30, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Both really. At some point during this period of time, perhaps as early as 94 and certainly as late as 96, Apple put stickers on all their machines that said "ready for OS 8" or something like that. The basic gist was "don't worry, buying this machine is fine". When Apple cancelled the project there was an abortive class action lawsuit saying that Apple had been involved in false advertizing, because the next major OS (Rhapsody) would NOT run on (m)any(?) of these machines. They "solved" this neatly by calling the next version of 7.x "8.0", and I suppose the lawyers were realistic enough to know that since Apple's stickers never said what OS 8 actually meant, there was no longer a lawsuit to be had. Maury 12:52, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm aware that they avoided certain legal troubles with the designation; I just don't think it's fair to suggest that Tempo's release name was unjustified or motivated solely by such issues. David Arthur 15:17, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Well I'm not the author of the original quote, but I'm pretty sure it is the case -- I seem to remember many comments about this at the time. Well I think it's safe to say it's more true than not, at least. Maury 03:39, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Wasn't there some "clone wars" going on at the time? I think the clones had licenses to make System 7 machines but maybe not System 8? Copland's Robbas 02:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] System 8 vs. Mac OS 8

Well, I made a mistake in my edit - Mac OS 7.6 had not been released when Copland was canceled. Nevertheless, the publication of this book in late 1996, just as Copland was being canceled, clearly shows that Apple intended to release Copland as "Mac OS 8" and not "System 8," I hope this can be considered a definitive source. MFNickster 01:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Amelio wasn't there for WWDC 1995

Spindler was still in charge at that point. I was there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.101.133.172 (talk • contribs) 12:48, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely correct, I had "back-dated" the WWDC's by a year. Fixed. Maury 16:17, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PPC Nativeness

System 7 had been recompiled on the PowerPC with great success, but the system still relied on the processor looking like a member of the Motorola 68000 family. In particular the sixteen-level interrupt handlers used in the Mac OS had to be emulated, requiring an expensive call into the OS to translate these to the PowerPC's much simpler two-level system. Removing this limitation would allow Copland-native applications to run much faster, as much as 50% in many cases, with no special effort on the part of the developers.

This rather glibly ignores the fact that bits of the system were still emulated, and the wonderful fun of the Mixed Mode Manager.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ahruman (talk • contribs) 17:01, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

If anything it simply doesn't provide as much detail as it needs to. Apple had repeatedly commented that Copland would have no emulated code in the OS. It doesn't "glibly ignore" any such fact, because that "fact" is not true in this case. Maury 15:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Howzabout a mention of compound documents?

As i recall, one of the highly touted and most axiously awaited features of Copland was it's support for the opendoc compound document architecture. Shouldn't there a be a word or two about this in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ericfluger (talk • contribs) 00:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe, but OpenDoc wasn't going to be integrated into the OS in any way. It was going to be included in Copland in exactly the same way as in System 7.5, as a set of shared libraries - even SOM was going to be a shared library rather than an OS-level service. Still, it might be worth including a wikilink to OpenDoc. MFNickster 19:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I was under the impression that SOM was going to be included in the OS itself. I do remember them talking a whole lot about it at WWDC'96 anyway. Maury 20:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Could be... I've never been to a WWDC, so I am relying on Tony Francis's book Mac OS 8 Revealed for my information. It says that "SOMobjects for Mac OS is based on the Code Fragment Manager so that SOM classes are implemented as shared libraries." MFNickster 05:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
SOMObjects was indeed provided; It had shipped prior to Copland as well. Alexr wiki 18:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Not Aaron Copland

I bet that 95% of the people searching for "Copland" are looking for the composer - is it possible to keep track of which disambiguation links are most followed most frequently to determine which page should have priority? Tiki2099 17:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd think it more likely that people looking for the composer would be trying Aaron Copland. Anyway I'm not aware of a way to track disambig link clicks. But you can see which articles link to this page. And out of the fortyish links, only one was anything to do with Aaron, which I fixed with this edit. AlistairMcMillan 19:46, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey, thanks for reverting my move without discussing it. I didn't do it out of boredom or randomness, AM, I put quite some thought into it. Weeks, really. First thing: Read the talk page. this has been mentioned a few times, including this offensive comment that I removed. The fact that it's a recurring issue suggests there's room for improvement. Second thing: people will come to Wikipedia looking for information on the composer (who is far more popular than a cancelled OS project, which was named after the composer), and they'll type "Copland" into a search box. Or maybe "Copeland", because that's how some pronounced it. Copeland drops you off at a disambiguation page, which lists all the different things with a last name of Copeland, oh, and there's a band named Copeland (who, like Apple's Copland project, have the distinction of being the only thing on Wikipedia with that exact name -- but are nonetheless located at Copeland (band)). Wikipedia:Disambiguation encourages us to use disambiguation pages where there is a risk of confusion. Third thing: Try doing a Google search on Copland. Not "Aaron Copland", just Copland. The large majority of the search results are about the composer, not the operating system, and Wikipedia should behave accordingly.
This is why I feel Copland ought to be a disambiguation page. -/- Warren 20:05, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Copeland is a totally different issue. There are other things called simply "Copeland". Although we have them with other things added to their article title to disambiguate them (like band or Kansas), their name is simply Copeland. There is nothing else called simply "Copland". Everything is either X Copland or Copland X.

The search thing I don't get either. If people are looking for Aaron Copland, they are probably going to search for "Aaron Copland" or some misspelling of his name, rather than just "Copland". And even if they do, we have a disambig link at the very top of the article.

If you really think this a serious problem, then change the disambig notice to something like "For the composer, see "Aaron Copland", for other meanings see "Copland (disambig)". AlistairMcMillan 21:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

With regard to searching, it is very, very common to refer to a classical composer by their last name. Would people search for "Ludwig von Beethoven" or "Beethoven"? "Wolfgang Mozart" or simply "Mozart"? How about Mussorgsky or Chopin, most people don't even know their first names.
Next, look at the number of links to the composer page versus the os page - that should give some indication of the relative popularity of the two subjects
Finally, let us not forget that the OS was named after the composer! Should Gershwin point here? If not, how many screen shots does it take for a failed OS to claim the page of its namesake? Tiki2099 03:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

"...claim the page of its namesake?" If the OS had been called "Aaron Copland" I would support your point 100%. However it is not.

Does this help at all? Or do still think there is a chance people are going to be confused? AlistairMcMillan 18:56, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

If there were no OS called "Copland", the page would surely point to the composer, and the OS was clearly named after the composer, as mentioned in the article itself. It's not about confusion, people can figure out that a page about an OS is not a page about a composer. However, on general principle, searching for a particular term should go directly to what the most people are likely to be expecting when they search for that term. The goal is to minimize the time people spend looking for information. Like Gershwin, the most appropriate page should be to the composer. Tiki2099 19:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

So you think we should re-arrange pages based on two assumptions? (1) More people want to read about the composer than the OS project. (2) A significant portion of the people who are wanting to read about the composer will search for "Copland" instead of "Aaron Copland". The first I think you are probably correct about, although I could be wrong. The second I don't think likely.

And please, stop comparing with Gershwin. That is totally different. As far as we know Gershwin, was never more than a footnote in a press release, whereas parts of Copland actually shipped (HFS Plus, etc). AlistairMcMillan 22:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I am fine with Copland going straight to the current article on the OS. I don't think it should redirect to Aaron Copland, at most it should redirect to the dab page. MFNickster 00:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The Gershwin analogy is very appropriate - both composers, both code names for OS projects that never were released. However, perhaps a better analogy is Darwin, a real OS project and a real person, where the Darwin page is at Darwin (operating system). Also, note that there have been several (5+ now) comments on this very page from people who have made the same observation regarding seaching for the term "Copland". At the very least it should point to the disambuigation page Tiki2099 03:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Where do you get 5+ from? I see 1 anon comment, 1 vandal comment and yourself.
How can you compare Gershwin and Copland? No-one even started work on Gershwin. Not only did people work on Copland, but people outside Apple actually used Copland and every single Mac sold in the last seven/eight years uses technology that was developed for Copland.
And Darwin is different. There are other things called simply "Darwin", towns, comic book characters, etc. There is nothing else called "Copland". Everything else is something that has "Copland" in its name. AlistairMcMillan 11:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The reason I can compare Gershiwn and Darwin is because it shows how Apple uses code names to describe projects, and how the main page for those projects incorporates the fact that it is a project into the page name. This OS project is just another thing with "Copland" in its name. There are comments like this from Solipsist, MFNickster, and 69.205.90.122 in the section "Title? and rewrite", then in this sections there are comments from me, Warren, and MFNickster (again). Look man, do what you want, but you're not convincing anyone that the most appropriate content for a page called "Copland" is a page about historical OS project Tiki2099 16:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

You said "This OS project is just another thing with "Copland" in its name." Sorry but that is wrong. It doesn't have Copland IN its name, its name is Copland. That is it, those seven letters and nothing else. It isn't called Copland Bob or Copland OS X. It was simply called "Copland". If there was ANYTHING else called simply "Copland" I wouldn't dispute this, but EVERYTHING else is either "Copland Something" or "Something Copland". AlistairMcMillan 16:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] research help

this article is very nice. i am doing research on apple computer and this is precisely the sort of information i am looking for -- insider details on what happened in the mid 90s at apple (why did the company do so poorly from 93-97?). at least, i am guessing these are insider details because they don't seem to be cited.

if you are interested in sharing whatever you know drop me a line at my talk page, or send me an email. thanks.

Copland's Robbas 02:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

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