Talk:Copa Libertadores

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This article needs a good coverage such as the world cup, Copa America, UEFA Champions League, etc. articles. I'll start with it shortly. -SpiceMan 12:00, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Details for Every Year

I think this article would be much more complete if it has details for every edition of the cup like the UEFA Champions League article. I noticed that some editions like the 2005, 1997 and 1994 have a Details article but they are incomplete or they need to be cleaned up. I know that creating a Details article for every year of the Libertadores might take a long time, but if enough people are interested in helping, it will make the Copa Libertadores article complete. - Bruno18 16:15, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I started the article for 2005. I am willing to do the same with 1992 and 1993. FTota 16:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
You will probably find RSSSF immeasurably useful to the task, if you haven't used it already. (By virtue of the fact it's linked in the article, I'm sure you're aware of it.) But then, it seems that a Wikipedia page would largely just be a more readable formatting. Perhaps the ideal would be a RSSF-to-Wikipedia bot. - PhilipR 05:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I did use RSSSF to make the 1990 and 2002 articles. The only problem is that it takes too long, especially in the recent years where 32 teams participate (more teams=more games=longer articles ;) ). Like you said, a bot would be perfect but I have no idea on how to use/create one. Bruno18 14:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Previous winners

An anon user changed:

  • "Between 1960 and 1979 the previous winners did not enter the competition until the semi-final stage"

with

  • "Between 1960 and 1989 the previous winners did not enter the competition until the semi-final stage".

I couldn't find references for neither year; anyone had better luck? Mariano(t/c) 07:13, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

That is not true, as the 1987 champions (Peñarol) had to play quarter-finals in the 1988 edition. Bruno18 20:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

What should we do then? Set back 1979? I didn't find any refenrece to 1979 either, and don't know who wrote it. Mariano(t/c) 06:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me do a little bit of research and come back with the answer ;) .Bruno18 14:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I've checked the results. The last time a champion had a 'bye' to the semifinals was in 1986. That year River Plate won the tournament and directly played the semifinals in the 1987 edition. Time to edit the article. Bruno18 17:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flags

I've been absent from this page for a while but I now see that the teams' crests where changed by the country's flag. The teams don't represent their countries in this competition, they represent themselves. The country of origin only matters when providing a quota to that league's teams. We should change back to the teams' crests, since that would be the correct interpretation. Ideas? Opinions? If no comments/opposition appears I'll change them in a few days.

Sebastian Kessel Talk 23:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Its really because the cresta are either indistinguishable, or huge and annoying, but mainly because, thats what they do everywhere else. Basically yeh, Im strongly against the use of club crests, and for country flags, despite the teams not there to represent their country, they still do, part of the winnings go to the FA of the team. People support teams from their country. But above all, people recognise flags, not logos, and the logo only gives the same information as the club-link anyway.
Also I'd like to point out, the emblems were removed months ago, whereas the flags were put up in the last few days. The emblems were removed by User:Ed g2s on the grounds that it was not fair use, as it served only as decoration.Philc TECI 00:04, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the crests were better because they actually represent the winning team, I personally don't find them confusing. With that being said, the flags don't look bad either. Oh, and thanks to both User:Philc 0780 and User:Tisco for making the champions table look nicer. Bruno18 01:04, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Cheers!! thanks. Philc TECI 01:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
"People support teams from their country".... Well, not very true in Argentina. Most people just root for their teams, period. "winnings go to the FA of the team", that's not true, they just go to the team. The FA only gets TV revenue sharing. Lastly, the crests direct you to the club and there is very clear where the club's from. I don't think the country flag should be there at all, and it really doesn't look any better than the crests did. If we don't want the crests, fine, but the flags should go as well. Sebastian Kessel Talk 15:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, I cant prove any of the facts you contest, on the grounds that I cant speak for everyone, and all of the regulations are in spanish, but as in all international club competitions, a percentage of all money awarded goes to the winning teams FA, something in the region of 5%. Television rights are also divided between club and country.
If you are going to change them back, I think there are several things you should do first, discuss it on talk:WikiProject Football, as they are working to get a consistency between all football related articles of similar subjects, and also discuss with User:Ed g2s to why he originally removed them. If you do this first, an edit war would be impossible. Otherwise I fear there will be a slow moving war between us all. Philc TECI 18:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Good points, it will be probably a good idea to do so. I'm not sure I want to undertake the painful process of discussing these since I know it's going to be long, and I wish I had been active in WP when User:Ed g2s removed the crests, 'cause now the "Status Quo" is different. I may actually surrender before starting the quest. Sebastian Kessel Talk 20:17, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll raise the point and see where the discussion goes, I'll express the view you expressed here on your behalf, and ask Ed g2s to comment. We'll see what happens. Philc TECI 20:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Phil, I'll check the project and intervene a little bit if necessary. Sebastian Kessel Talk 22:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

PS. If anyone was following this, several users agreed that the logos are on a fair use, and are not essential to the article, and so cannot be used under the fair use policy. Philc TECI 19:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Past Results

Wouldn't be better to change the name of this section? IMO it is a bit misleading as the table only shows the results for the finals, not for every game of the Copa as the title seems to suggest. Also, I think it would be better to "flip" the table and show the last champion first (in other words, go in descending order from 2006 to 1960). Let me know what you think. Bruno18 20:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Copa América has Copa América tournaments as subtitle, and FIFA World Cup has World Cup summaries. Regarding the order, I have no preference, but both Copa America and World Cup have ascending order. Mariano(t/c) 06:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and changed the title to "Past tournaments". IMO it suits the article better but if you don't like it feel free to change it. Bruno18 17:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2006 final

I don't believe it's appropiate to have both Sao Paulo and Internacional in the "Past Results" table as one column is for the runner-up and the other one for the champion (the leftmost column in this case). Having Sao Paulo in that leftmost column can confuse people who are looking at the article and are not familiar with football or the Libertadores, making them believe that Sao Paulo is the 2006 champion. We should only add the teams once the finals are complete. After all, this is an encyclopedia and the main objective should be to inform people but not confuse them.

I'm also against declaring Brazil as having 13 championships before the finals are played. Yeah, I know that this is an all-Brazilian final and that the champion will eventually be from that country but there's always a remote chance that something might happen.

So in conclusion, I'll go ahead and revert the changes made by that anom user and if somebody disagrees and wants the article the way it was PLEASE discuss it here and at least give at good reason of why you want the article that way. Peace. Bruno18 14:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the country but in the past we have arbitrarily added the countries, the idea is that we can add the finals' results after the first game to keep track. Maybe a footnote explaining wouldn't be a bad idea. Sebastian Kessel Talk 14:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, it looks like it doesn't matter. Anom users from Brazil keep changing the article and I'm not willing to play an edit war so I'll leave the article as it is. Bruno18 17:11, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copa Libertadores in Brazil

In Brazil, it's Copa Libertadores da América and not Taça Libertadores da América. People can check this at Portuguese Wikipedia [1].

[edit] Libertators of America Cup??? C'mon!

In English the people always refer to this championship as Copa Libertadores. Libertators of America, as it's written in this article is a an useless and non-official translation. --201.37.187.220 02:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

They may refer to it like that but the article should also give a translation of the name to the people that don't know what Libertadores means. Bruno18 16:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
There is an explanation about it -> "The name of the tournament is an homage to the Libertadores (Spanish word for Libertators), the main leaders of the independence wars of Latin America"

[edit] Why was the article moved?

The original and complete name of the tournament is "Copa Libertadores de América". Copa Libertadores is just the "short name" for the tournament and the user that made the change didn't even specify the reason. I think the article should be moved back to the complete name. Bruno18 16:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It was changed to the most common identification of this Championship in the English-speaking countries, as well as the official Conmebol International name (Copa Toyota Libertadores) [2].
"Copa Libertadores DE América" is just for the spanish-speaking countries
"Copa Libertadores DA América" is just for Brazil and portuguese-speaking countries.
"Copa Libertadores" or "Copa Toyota Libertadores" (with the sponsor) is the official international name.
--Mrzero 03:30, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
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