Talk:Controversy over racial characteristics of ancient Egyptians

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Contents 1 Archives 1.1 Summary of Archive 1 1.2 Summary of Archive 2 2 Statement made out of biased ignorance 3 Here comes the moment of truth. 4 Modern Egyptians are preodminately caucasoid? 5 Modern Egyptians' Appearance 6 There is no evidence to say that Egyptians weren't black 7 Hey. 8 Ramses II and Ginger 9 The Genetic Test on the mummy of Ramses II 10 controversy? 11 Use of the word Caucasoid 12 "Semetic" 13 I recommend ... 14 we've gone international! 15 Page history 16 Move request: Controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians 17 Images 18 Unsourced reproaches against Hawass & Egyptian Government 19 Modern Egyptians 20 more photos needed 21 Deleted lengthy Gaston Maspero passage 22 Deleted Biasutti map 23 My Edits 24 Outdated info? 25 Article moved 26 Melanin Dosage Test 27 Extra-terrestrials 28 Hazel eyes 29 "Ethnographic Murals" as example for the origin of the debate 30 True Ethnographic Murals, Egyptian represented as true negroes in the tomb of Ramses III 31 completely uncited 32 "arabized" 33 everyone hates hawass 34 response to deeceevoice 35 Irrelevant stuff 36 Personal email from Dr. Brace Northern Egyptian samples 37 Proposed new article structure 38 deleted per discussion? 39 Anonymous edits labled "rv vandalism" 40 "Ethnographic Murals" - the question of the "real thing" 41 I gotta say something....... 42 A Complete and Utter Lack of Objectivity 43 A Question 44 Reorganization 45 Bowdlerization of the article and the reasons for my revert to original 46 Isn't it obvious? 47 World history and white cannibalism in a nutshell 48 Layout of the Article 49 To do 50 citations 51 Two Articles 52 Good job, only use "white" looking Egyptian sculptures 53 Egyptians were probably of North African/Middle Eastern descent 54 Fix race intro 55 Question 56 A Flase Dichotomy? 57 To do 58 New Section: De-Centrism 59 Recent changes 60 Focusing on the Conflict. Objections? 61 Deliberate disinformation about Frank Domingo / New York Times 62 Misinformation and asssumption removed 63 Circular problem with the article 64 The article starts off lying to support the Eurocentric bias 65 I rewrote the first two paragraphs 66 A morotorium, please! 67 Medjay removed 68 A plea for civility 69 Seriously, there is no controversy left here 70 Immature wording removed 71 The questioning of "the present status" 72 Reserch on genetics 73 Desecration of artwork 74 complete rewrite necessary 75 DIDN'NT WANT TO DO THIS 76 I might be the only one who realizes... 77 delete, move or merge? 78 Hyksos from "southeast Asia"? 79 Why dont images be added 80 from the "a controversial perspective" section 81 Title 82 egypt 83 Some complaints...... 84 cultural links 85 More on names egyptians called themselves 86 Page move 87 Silly debate

[edit] Archives

1. 14:59, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
2. 17:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
3. 13:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Summary of Archive 1

• http://www.vdare.com/francis/pseudo.htm was posted as a source for the validity of DNA testing for race. This and other attempts at discussion were not addressed.
• http://www.nubianet.org/about/about_interpret3.html was listed as a possible source for inclusion, with no response.
• There was an unresolved argument concerning the admissibility of white-supremacist/"eurocentrist"/racist material; it was between DreamGuy and Deeceevoice (against) and 155.91.28.231 (for). At present (14:59, 17 January 2006 (UTC)), it is not included.
• The admissability of Herodotus and 18th Century sources for racial identification were questioned, but their inclusion was agreed upon (not as conclusive, but as sources).

Summarized by Mgreenbe 14:59, 17 January 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Summary of Archive 2

• An argument of modern standards (suggesting that contemporary American standards would mark Egyptians as Black) was left unconcluded when Mgreenbe asked what changes were desired; none were given.
• The article was accused of being written from a Black-supremacy POV (Zuzim); Zaphnathpaaneah asked for evidence. No conclusion.

Summarized by Mgreenbe 17:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Statement made out of biased ignorance

"Racist remnants of earlier times, such as the one-drop theory, still influence the racial categorization of multiracial individuals. See Black (people)."

How much white is an italian, a greek,a spaniard, a french, compared to a blue-eyes-blond-hair german or a redhead wasp ?

Whites are not more/less "multiracial", to use your vocabulary.

Caid--84.130.6.7 00:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Why not see the WHITE people article as well if not especially? The one drop rule wad created and designed for the benefit of maintaining white PURITY, not establishing a pseudo-scientific basis of Black predominance in history. I mean come one the racist remants of earlier times were established by WHITE people, yet the BLACK people article is referenced. Oh thats right I forgot, nowadays, the Eurocentricists and the "mainstream" wants to pretend that black people somehow forced the one-drop rule down the white race's throat while they were enslaved. --Zaphnathpaaneah 18:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Because the topic is addressed in the body of the article linked? What the hell does the "one drop rule" have to do with the Ancient Egyptians? I suggest you go and contribute to articles on racial politics, if that is the topic you are interested in. This article is nothing but a cheap attempt to recruit an ancient culture for a modern political agenda. The fact that your political opponents have done that in the past does not give you any right to do it as well. People have every right to resent enslavement irrespective of the Ancient Egyptians - get it, you would have more of a point if you attacked injustice directly, from a moral standpoint, rather than attempting a pathetically flawed argument along the lines of "the Ancient Egyptians were black, therefore it was wrong to enslave Blacks". dab (ᛏ) 18:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Amongst them are scholars known as Afrocentricists whom insist that ancient Egyptians were black African peoples

And for the love of god use a spellchecker or ask somebody to translate your ideas into presentable English O_o dab (ᛏ) 18:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you just clarify the misspelling, instead of debating endlessly. The One Drop rule is not merely confined to Black people, it was also defined in the context of white purity. The One Drop Rule did not force a native american, or latino, or asian, or arab to become solely "black". What the One Drop Rule did was to exclude any racial group deemed undesirable from Western European purists from noticeably attaching itself to becoming a part of the white race. Read the article yourself. Secondly, I do not apply the principles of the One Drop Rule to Ancient Egypt. I am reverting the areas I feel like reverting because 1. This is an article about the controversy itself, and the information I provided (which was a clarification of the various positions is accurate. 2. Because like it or not, the one drop rule IS a part of the controversy over the race of the ancient Egyptians.

You also erroneously bring issues of slavery into the conversation as a pretext to disrupt the article. Classic straw-man, which YOU, not I, use is that I must be trying to make up for slavery. The issue here isn't regarding slavery, and we all know this. Its regarding what exactly the Ancient Egyptians LOOKED like and the controversy surrounding the race of the Ancient Egyptians. Why can't you stay on topic? I suggest YOU not give me suggestions and you yourself go and take some time to look into racial politics and discuss the stereotype that every black person that supports the idea that Egypt was black must be doing so to get past injustices balanced. Why is it that you are offended that I even present a clear breakdown of the various positions.

But I see another problem. Cquest, as I just told dBachmann, this article is ABOUT the controversy, NOT about finding a result. I certainly believe that the Egyptians were Black, however, this article isn't "are the Egyptians Black or not". The article is about the controversy and thus all of the major positions within it should be highlighted. I personally believe that all of the Arab migrations from the ARABIAN peninsulia since Muhammad's day, and colonialism has changed the demographic to a more Caucasoid one, which DIFFERS from the pharaonic one. DBachmann, I am going to follow the RFC policy TO THE LETTER because I will not let Wikipedia give you an excuse to lock the article with the last edit, or to RFC me out of the contributing process.

Firstly, you have no right to remove the ENTIRE content after 2 back and forths (without removing it initially) with cquest. Basically you are saying "forget it, I don't like it because of the new contributions so I'm taking it all out". No. 2nd. I am going to post and I hope cquest posts also on your talk page as to resolve the issue properly. Because we all know what will happen. --Zaphnathpaaneah 01:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe the "de-negrification" happened much earlier than the Arabs. I think there was a study by two guys named "Berry" in 1972 showing a discontinuity between New Kingdom crania and crania from earlier periods (predynastic to Middle Kingdom), which probably suggests mixture with Hyksos and other Palestinians who settled in the Delta, only to be expelled (I've asked Evergreen at Egyptsearch for the citation, but he hasn't got around to it yet). Late dynastic northern crania are also said to look fairly different from earlier crania.

[edit] Here comes the moment of truth.

Like I said earlier, it's really wrong to build up a fake edit war (which I predicted would happen) only to make a pretext for a RFC or an article lock in order to unilaterally keep out content that one side does not want to have posted. Now I see it coming and I'm waiting to see how the moderator/who-ever-a-rator will handle this. --Zaphnathpaaneah 02:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying the edit war was staged? I assure you it was real. No one is arguing for a lock of the article anymore (one that simply prevents IPs and new users from editing doesn't prevent you from doing anything): the two parties have been dealt with (at least one has been banned for a short while).

Yom 03:13, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm just saying, good job trashing the article guys. Duplicating footnotes, breaking links, and adding mindless babble. At least it is now readily recognizeable as the worthless polemic it is by any halfway intelligent reader, so I won't waste my time edit-warring about it. dab (ᛏ) 18:41, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Egyptians are preodminately caucasoid?

I am removing the following from the article because its both and example of scientific illiteracy and also incorrect. Modern geneticists like Cavalli Sfoza cited don't believe in caucasoid,negroid or mongoloid. None of the following have any basis genetically according to most geneticists. I personally emailed Dr. Peter Underhill myself and asked him if such a gene that can be asigned to phenotypes existed and he responded that they cannot.

Also I am curious why studies on modern Egyptians should be used for the ancient Egyptians? Lots of migrants have came into Egypt both during the pharoanic and post pharoanic era

--I don't understand how any of the studies posted in the "genetics" section prove a genetic continuity between ancient and modern Egyptians. To my knowledge, these studies only use modern Egyptians.

[edit] Modern Egyptians' Appearance

Just to stir the pot, I'll contribute this link to a video montage of the Egyptian-American Alliance of Youth 2006 Conference so an idea of what modern Egyptians look like can be obtained. Conclude whatever you like. --Jugbo 01:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Here's a link to some kids in the south (but not Nubian), and here's another of Berbers in the far NW. Egypt is heterogeneous.

Yom 02:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is, isn't it? --Jugbo 00:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Jugbo, your link to the photos -- as well as what you try to imply by offering it -- is absurd. That's like submitting photos of a U.S.-Israel Alliance conference in the U.S., showing an all-white and Jewish attendance and then expecting people to believe that the U.S. is comprised of nothing but Caucasians/Caucasoid peoples. The fact is the Fellahin, largely poor and dark-skinned, are highly unlikely to be in attendance at an Egyptian-American Alliance of Youth conference. Even if they were so inclined politically (which is somewhat doubtful) or economically able to do so, the subject is not likely one that would be compelling enough for them to take time away from daily affairs to deal with. Further, living in Washington, D.C., I run into a fair number of Egyptians, and they are -- by far -- not so highly Arabized in appearance as the people represented in the photos on the website to which you've provided a link. And then you respond to Yom's comment about diversity as if to say, "Of course!" I find your remarks/contribution to this discussion highly disingenuous/contradictory. deeceevoice 22:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

By the way, those Southern kids are not Nubian, Jugbo (in case you thought otherwise). A couple may be, but the majority are just Sa'idi.

Yom 23:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Like I said: "just stirring the pot". People on this page have been concerned with the appearance of modern Egyptians, so I shared what I've found - pictures of young Egyptian-Americans. I thought it was good. By the way, some of those people at the conference looked (at least partly) black to me; and I know not all Egyptians look similar, so my response to Yom was sincere. --Jugbo 01:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

You know thats funny, but not unusual. Everywhere you go in the world, it's fashionable to have the "lighterskinned" citizenry represented in these nicely articulated presentations. It's like the areas of a city that tourists see. You must take effort to go behind the tourists spots, to go into the unpresented areas to see what life is really like in the city. I find the pictures of the black egyptian kids more indicitive of Egyptian culture than the sanitized presentation that looks like it could be from anywhere in the world. McDonalds vs a home cooked meal as far as I am concerned. Your Egyptians Jugbo are a part of a pan-European idolization of what you think your culture SHOULD look like. The Black kids are the reality that has been ignored in the world's eye since the 20th century began. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] There is no evidence to say that Egyptians weren't black

Egyptians were black, there are greater amounts of evidence to support this than any other classification. You can't call them Semitic only based upon their language (I speak English, but I am not English}, and you can't go by skin color(most Egyptians are darker than me in the Hieroglyphs and I'm what you would call black.)You can't talk about features because as we know, Every feature can be found in Africa's "black" people...from straight hair to "hooked noses" You can't change the rules because you want to. No one has a problem with calling ancient Nubian, black, but when it comes to Egyptians "They didn't have those rules back then", which is a good one or "they were mixed" is one of their favorite lines..which is a shifty move to avoid what is obvious in most Egyptian art. I mean I am mixed ( like all blacks in america, to a degree)but I'm still black.

It's high time that people see there are many races of black people, and drop the illusion. Egyptians were black in the past, and the culture of ancient Egypt was a black one.

What is a problem here is that no one wants to believe that a race of black people could influence history so much.

The only thing holding the residuals of this argument is semantics, and technicalities, but most evidence favors that Egyptians are "Black", and vertually none says otherwise.

--Vehgah 05:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Ancient Egyptians spoke (ancient/old) Egyptian, which is Afro-Asiatic, but not Semitic (it forms its own independent branch of A-A). So you could not classify them as Semitic based on language.

ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 07:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but that's what a lot of people do. They write ancient Egyptians off as Semitic. --Vehgah 16:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Conclusions of the 1974 UNESCO sponsored symposium in Cairo, Egypt.

the symposium rejected the idea that Pharaonic Egyptian was a Semitic language. 'Turning to wider issues, Professor Sauneron drew attention to the interest of the method suggested by Professor Obenga following Professor Diop. Egyptian remained a stable language for a period of at least 4500 years. Egypt was situated at the point of convergence of outside influences and it was to be expected that borrowing had been made from foreign languages, but the Semitic roots numbered only a few hundred as compared with a total of several thousand words. The Egyptian language could not be isolated from its African context and its origin could not be fully explained in terms of Semitic, it was thus quite normal to expect to find related languages in Africa'

Caid--84.130.6.7 00:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hey.

I made alot of changes to the article, here's a a few problems I saw:

1.The explanation for the difference between ancient Nubian and other sub-saharan crania due to admixture, there's no evidence of admixture in Nubian crania prior to the Mohammedan invasions, if there's evidence, present it, then I will gladly concede.

2. "An elder lady thought to be Queen Tiye among them". i just put Queen Tiye, the evidence seems pretty convincing to me that it's who "The Elder Lady" is.

3. I want to put to rest the myth of Eygpto-Nubian racial wars, that myth still seems to be flying around, even in intellectual circles.

4. It's time we bring in the genetic big guns people, haplotype and maternal lineages should have been the first thing to be put in the genetics section of this article. Jesus christ do I have to do everything?

Got any problems talk to me, bubs.

Playing football on the moon. Teth22 15:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ramses II and Ginger

So evidence points out that Ramses II was a redhead [1], and surely this research is just as accurate or inaccurate as the melanin tests described above, what does this mean with regards to the race of the Pharaohs? Is this not evidence that at least the top echelons of the 19th Dynasty were at the very least not Black Africans?

Furthermore what of the earliest 'mummy' discovered in Egypt, that of 'Ginger' now located in the British Museum [2] [3], does anyone here not find it odd that the earliest 'mummy' discovered in Egypt is clearly not of a Black African ancestry?

Naturally there are many other examples of mummies that do not conform to the Afrocentrist viewpoint of Ancient Egypt, why are these cases not highlighted more often? Jameswoolsey 21:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Ramses was most certainly not a red-head naturally. The color is from chemical changes to the hair due to the embalming process, aging, and perhaps henna. See here, for example. And what does it matter who is found first at a site? It's the frequency that matters, not who/what was found first. The first artifact found at a site in Pakistan might be Greek, but that doesn't mean that Pakistanis used to be Greek. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 21:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The French scientists pointed out that studies of the roots of Ramses hair pointed to it being naturally red. However you are wrong to suggest that "Ramses was most certainly not a red-head naturally". As for Ginger, you are right to point out that it does not matter who was found first, but this can hardly be discounted when looking at the race of Ancient Egyptians, and it is surprising to not see it mentioned here. Jameswoolsey 10.11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

As it looks to be a controversial point with differing opinions it appears to be a legitimate topic for addition to this page. Justforasecond 00:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Genetic Test on the mummy of Ramses II

A genetic-Test from egyptien officials, has already proved that Ramses II was a negro with black-hair. This was a news from egyptian officials august 2000, published on this page http://www.sis.gov.eg/public/letter/fhtml/ftext058.htm

I saved the page here: http://people.freenet.de/freezama/mop/Lettre_du_Caire_58_Du_25_4_Au_1er_5_2000.htm The news was in French, so you have to translate it yourself.

CERTAINS TRAITS GENETIQUES DES EGYPTIENS ANCIENS Dans le cadre des recherches effectuées par l'Université du Caire en collaboration avec le Conseil supérieur des antiquités, il a été possible de parvenir aux caractéristiques anthropologiques des Pharaons. Selon les indices préliminaires, on est parvenu à un certain nombre de traits génétiques des Pharaons . Il a été possible de déterminer les gènes de la taille, de la couleur de la peau et de la couleur des yeux et des cheveux du roi à l'époque pharaonique dont des échantillons ont été prélevés. Ils l'ont été sur des momies placées dans les sarcophages. Un groupe de chercheurs a pu séparer ces gènes qui ont prouvé que les Egyptiens anciens n'étaient pas hauts de taille comme on le croyait auparavant. Leur taille était plûtot moyenne, à l'exception de Ramsès II dont l'analyse des gènes a prouvé qu'il était taillé. Il a également été démontré que sa peau était brune et que ses cheveux étaient noirs, et non pas roux. La couleur rousse qui a été trouvée sur sa momie est due à une teinture (probablement du henné). Ses yeux étaient noirs avec une légère teinte de couleur marron. Amenhotep III était court de taille, la couleur de sa peau était d'un brun clair. Ses yeux et ses cheveux étaient de couleur noire foncée. Ces traits prouvent que les rois étaient apparentés. Tous les rois à cette époque avaient une origine commune dans l'arbre généalogique de la famille royale. Il sera ainsi possible de déteminer d'une façon précise les dates et les époques dans l'avenir . Ces recherches vont confirmer certains traits anthropologiques qui ont été étudiés auparavant sur les momies pharaoniques. Ceci permettra de donner des indices préliminaires concernant les traits , les maladies et les caractéristiques des Pharaons.

Caid--84.130.0.224 07:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] controversy?

I'm not entirely sure I would call this a "controversy" so much as a debate, but I dunno. Just thought I'd interject....

c'mon james, be bold! this is good info (even afrocentrist diop's laughable counter "proof" that this couldn't have been the case because egyptians killed anyone with red hair they came across) Justforasecond 14:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I got things to say to both James and JFAS. First off, JFAS, keep your nose out of this article okay, m'kay? You obviously have no experience in the area the article deals with and it's as plain as george clooney's sex addiction. Second, James, you're an idiot with the emotional complexity of a four-year old, and you're wrong about "Ginger" being the oldest mummy, it's actually Uan Muhuggiag, who dates to 3500 BC, who has been confirmed to be BLACK AFRICAN, and whose culture shows links with ancient egypt. And red hair can result from decolorization after death especially in the desert, it's never been confirmed that the mummy had natural red hair. So back off the article. Playing football on the moon. Peace. Teth22 00:31, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Haha. If you knew the history of this article.... Justforasecond 03:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Teth, be polite and civil. Failure to do so could result in disciplinary action by administrators. You have consistently villified people that dare have a contrary opinion to yours - further you have no right to suggest or request that anyone stop editing any article. It is alright to be an ideologue on Wikipedia, but you have to obey the common rules of etiquette and sourced material - both of which, from what I have observed, you seem to have a bit of a problem with. Joey 03:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it was my understanding that the redness of the hair was a result of the embalming process. Hardly likely that any redhead would exist, let alone survive long in Africa. Can you say "squamous cell melanoma"? And even assuming there ever was a redhead in ancient dynastic Egypt, the very suggestion that a pale-skinned, redheaded person could be indigenous to the region is utterly laughable -- hysterically so. We don't even have to waste time mocking/debunking such contentions; they are ridiculous on their face. deeceevoice 17:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of the word Caucasoid

This article should make very clear the uses of the word Caucasoid. Whenever the article may describe "Caucasoid" affinities of Egyptian individuals or mummified skulls, readers might misinterpret this as meaning "White," particularly in America due to the use of Caucasian here to describe people of White European ancestry. It should be mentioned (it might be) that much evidence has suggested that the Ancient Egyptians may have resembled certain modern peoples from the Horn of Africa and surrounding region- namely the Beja of Sudan. Significant evidence has shown that the Beja may represent a more "pure" modern example of what the early Dyanstic Egyptians may have looked like. Many people in Egypt today, particularly outside of the major Northern urban centers such as Cairo and Alexandria, have an appearance similar to the aforementioned Beja. However it needs to be mentioned that the Beja (feature a picture maybe) would absolutely be considered "Black" in America today, although they may have significant Caucasoid affinities. The same is true for Ethiopians- they are generally considered black although they posses many features associated with Caucasoids. See the following pictures- http://www.lanl.gov/orgs/dvo/WOWCalendar/Images/EasternOrthodoxPriestEthiopia.jpg , http://www.somali-gov.info/photos/geedipress.jpg , http://www.sudan101.com/images/bejafuzguy.jpg These pictures show an Ethiopian man, a Somali Man (prime minister Ali Mohamed Gedi) and a Beja man. These may demonstrate the same "Caucasoid" affinities as do some Egyptian skulls, but are nevertheless considered black.

[edit] "Semetic"

The article states "light-skinned or "white" people (Semetic people or people of Europe, North Africa, Western Asia, South Asia and portions of Central Asia)." First, a Semite is simply someone who speaks a Semitic language, so no, no one thinks the ancient Egyptians were Semites, second, it's misspelled. The type of Caucasoid they are believed to have been would be similar to that of other Caucasoid North Africans, obviously.

Besides the semitic culture appears -1500 BC or later.

How could they have created a civilization 2000 to 3000 years older ?

References: Lenormant, Bible, etc.

Caid --84.130.6.7 00:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I recommend ...

Okay, so I'm not involved in this debate in any way. I don't have any knowledge on the subject, either lay or professional. So it's entirely possible that some members of this conversation will object to my injecting my opinion, but hey, that's Wikipedia.

I'm not here to offer an opinion on the racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians. I'm here to ask everyone to take a step back from this article.

I don't have the authority to have anyone stop editing this article, and I wouldn't try to even if I did. I don't have administrative authority to block users or lock articles, and I don't think that would do this dispute any good. I think that this article has the potential to be a fascinating, informative article, and it needs passionate and knowledgable editors to work on it. It's clear to me that it already has passionate and knowledgable editors. So what can be done to make progress in this area?

After seeing this article in Recent Changes, I considered tagging this article for mediation, but then I decided, hey, I'm a level-headed Wikipedian, no need to draw any negative attention this way. So this is the general Wiki-Wisdom that I can offer to this situation. And please remember, these are just my opinions, but they are what I have found works for constructive collaboration.

• Try not to post, even on a talk page, when upset, angry, or offended. This article has 'controversy' in the title: of course there will be controversy. But editing in a good mood is always more effective than editing in a bad one.
• Try to recognize your own agenda and bias. Every human being has biases, and everyone on Wikipedia has an agenda for the 'pedia. If everyone keeps this in mind, and recognizes that they have some stake in this article, it will be easier for everyone to make their points clear.
• Try to recognize the agenda of the other editors. If everyone realizes that everyone else has some stake in this article, it may become clearer why disagreement quickly becomes heated.
• Try to remember that Wikipedia is for everyone. With the exception of blocked or banned users, anyone can edit any article on Wikipedia ... and it's made that way for a reason. That means that your text may not stay in an article. It means that your text may be changed when you come back. This is to be expected.
• The most important thing: Simply try to be civil. If you have an viewpoint to post, post it, and cite your reasons for believing it. But that is all that need be done -- personal attacks, rudeness, and badgering do not help anyone, and do not help the state of the article.

I would strongly suggest that everyone involved in this disagreement take some time off from this article, however long they think they need to calm down. I have no intentions of bringing this disagreement to the Wiki-authorities, but if this level of incivility continues, someone certainly will, with disappointing and unfortunate consequences. Evaluate the situation here: is this article really worth getting blocked over?

I would also suggest that, if anyone believes that he or she cannot approach this article with a level head and a civil attitude, that he or she refrain from coming back to this page before changing his or her attitude. Of course, I am not saying "Do not edit this page". I'm simply saying "Remember that incivility and anger can have negative consequences". Nobody wants that.

Editing and discussing with a level head and a civil attitude is good for the Wikipedia community, and it makes the likelihood of your point being heard and understood much better. When we're all nice, everybody wins!

Peace. - Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} 19:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Added some data and citations that support BOTH sides of the controversy, while maintaining a balanced tone.Enriquecardova 06:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] we've gone international!

our work has not gone unnoticed -- the french have picked up this page! strangely they have not found the need to include links to "returntoglory" and the freeman institute, etc.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origine_des_anciens_%C3%89gyptiens

Justforasecond 00:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. The lack of links to that website are probably owing in part to the language difference. As well, they seem to have been able to find several photos free of copyright problems (where we haven't) -- which obviate the necessity for links.

I also note they did not include the ridiculously POV section on the purported "inaccuracy" of cranial analysis -- which I've worked on here to make it more balanced. As much as the writer would like to portray it as a technique used by Americans, that is simply not the case. And it is a practice with tremendous usefulness and with a great deal of credibility in the forensic community. The problem is racial classification in discrete categories, particularly when dealing with mixed populations -- not of its proven accuracy in determining approximate or likely ethnicity and/or point of geographic origin. The classic Africoid black characteristics of the King Tut skull, for instance, are what led Anton (who, unlike the memers of the French and Egyptian teams, had no clue about the specimen skull) to immediately conclude it was African. The only aberrant thing (vis-a-vis the classic "Negroid" phenotype) was the nasal index, which led her to the group of blacks with pronounced alveolar prognathism, buckteeth, receding chin, dolichocephalic head with a pronounced sagittal crest, large incisors, rounded eye sockets: (Nilotic) North Africans. (She never said "Caucasoid.") She pinpointed the exact point of origin of the specimen by examining just the skull. If the methodologies of the practice were so flawed, she could not have done that.

The French showed good judgment in ignoring such blatantly POV text. deeceevoice 05:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page history

The history for this article is impossible to follow. Please use edit summaries, and try to make all edits to the article at the same time. (If you need, you can copy and paste the wikicode into an outside text editor, make your changes, then copy and paste it back.) This will help people following the development of this article greatly. Thanks! - Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} 14:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move request: Controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians

It seems to be that a lot of the problems surrounding this article have to do with definitions of race. Why not move the page to a more neutral sounding name? I think it would help. - Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} 13:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

IMO, the problem is that editors attempt to prove the unprovable: that a cultural/social construct exists biologically. Or, to use the words of Cavalli-Sforza, the problem is that "the classification into races has proved to be a futile exercise."

The only thing this article about the "race" of Egyptians proves is that any "evidence" provided by afrocentric racialists can be dismantled with "evidence" provided by eurocentric racialists, and vice versa. Being aware of this dilemma, editors try to give their position more weight with original research, POV wording, misquote or quote out of context, and even go so far to declare outdated racist pseudo-science as factual accurate.

We can either continue this futile exercise, or we can try to approach the topic from a different angle. For instance, we could concentrate on the social/political ideologies and motivations that led to this Egyptian race paradox rather than reinforce social constructs which lack a clear cut scientific basis.

We could select the most prominent afrocentric/eurocentric egyptologists, elaborate on their ideologies and motivations and add some examples for methods they used to "prove" their point of view. As a third, balancing party, we could include statements which discard both positions as equally unprovable, including treatises about Phrenology and Race [4], the American Anthropological Association Statement on "Race", [5], and, for instance, the writings of Cavalli-Sforza. CoYep 21:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you entirely. (Including the bits about race as social construct.) That's why I thought "racial characteristics" would be a better term -- it does not engage race as an absolutely.

Unfortunately, I am completely unqualified to write on this topic, knowing next to nothing about the studies quoted here. I would be willing to check the stuff out for apparent POV, though. -Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} 08:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

While this article http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21995-2004Sep14.html is not about the race of Egyptians, it comments, IMO, a similar discussion as the one we have here CoYep 21:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} that a first step away from biologist discussions that lead into populist relapses to the 19th century rather than representing current scholarship is to rename the article. It will not solve the problem, but it might move the focus. I also agree with CoYep that references to and reliance on current findings in the history of egyptology would be helpful. The controversy needs to be represented and contextualized (and revealed as based on racist or racialist ideologies that ultimately have nothing to do with Egypt) from a NPOV -- it is absolutely counterproductive to carry it out here. --Jottce 09:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

well, then let's try it CoYep 08:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

What's with the sudden image flood? They're indiscriminately light-skinned (with the exception of deecee's deleted and now restored image) and add POV to the article. They should only be used when relevant to illustrate a point. They are, for instance, inappropriate in non-artistic arguments in the article. I am going to remove any that fail that criterion now. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 02:42, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

How very convenient to remove the images you don't like, but keep the ones you want because they support your POV. Sorry but this is not allowed on Wikipedia and constitutes vandalism and edit warring. --This unsigned comment was made 08:22, 1 July 2006 by a contributor at IP 130.94.134.166

I noted that they added POV but note I didn't remove any images that didn't fit my description above or leave any that failed it. Note that I left all of the artistic images, whether or not they were light or dark-skinned. I also replaced an ancient Egyptian statue in the "modern Egyptians" section with a light-skinned modern Egyptian, and left the colorless statue of Akhenaten as he may be Tut's father, so it's relevant to the section. I accidentally did a partial revert thinking it was a remnant left out by my earlier revert in the same section, but now I see that it's because you have reverted again. This is over the 3RR limit, and you should not do it again. Again, note exactly what my edits have constituted regarding the images (removing irrelevant ones, not ones that don't fit my standards) and please stop edit warring and reverting. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 08:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, first of all you kept doing a mass revert of all previous changes, so you were not just removing the images. You also felt more comfortable leaving behind the images added by the user who keeps inserting afrocentric POVs. You only removed the other images. These images are not irrelevant. They show ancient Egyptians faces which is what this page is about. --This unsigned comment was made 08:57, 1 July 2006 by a contributor at IP 130.94.134.166

You're right in that I didn't realize that I was removing other info, but that's not all you changed, so the question on images stands. The other user (Deeceevoice) only added one image and in a section about the representation of Ancient Egyptians, so the image was relevant and could stay. Your images, however, were in areas unrelated to the Ancient Egyptians' artwork of themselves and therefore not useful for those sections. That they were all of a specific type (i.e. light-skinned) added POV, but the primary reason I removed them (As opposed to balancing out the images with others of dark-skinned Egyptian artistic representations) is because those images don't belong in those sections. By the way, I am reporting you for reverting the 3RR, but it's good that you are now willing to talk. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 09:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

How about that, Yom, does that fix the problem of the images? — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · t 20:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Thanks for participating in the discussion. I'm not sure if the Skin Color image is a good one, though. A better image would be one of modern Egyptians in all shades, if we can find one. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The image of a random man in the king Tut section is not relevant to the section. Firstly, the eyes of the man are barely visible (so it doesn't illustrate the "hazel eyes" like you claim). Secondly, having Hazel eyes like a single reconstruction is not a reason for inclusion. It's like adding an image of an ancient Egyptian portrait with black hair because King Tut was reconstructed with black hair in one reconstruction - totally irrelevant. If the image were one thought to represent King Tut (or a relative), however (e.g. the funeral mask), then the image would be relevant — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 21:05, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

But the afro-centircs were mainly opposed to Tut's eyes being hazel, so I think it helps to show that an ancient Egyptian has hazel eyes. The article is heavily afro-cenrtic so you should not delete the counterview point to the criticism. The article deals with a CONTROVERSY, it is not a tool to advance one side of the argument. Keep that in mind. -- This unsigned comment was made 21:20, 1 July 2006 by a contributor at IP 130.94.134.166

If you wish to show a depiction of a man with hazel eyes, then the eyes must be visible. What? Are we supposed to simply trust that they are? The photo is not illustrative of the point the caption is trying to make -- not even when the image is left clicked for a larger version. It makes no sense to include it here. I say it goes. (Excellent points, Yom.) And the same thing with the flat-out erroneous captions asserting "tan" skin, when it is obvious the figures once were covered with reddish ochre, the remnants of which are clearly visible. deeceevoice 23:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced reproaches against Hawass & Egyptian Government

In order to avoid legal actions against Wikipedia I removed these unsourced reproaches against Hawass & the Egyptian Government:

These critics contend that a foreknowledge of their subject's identity and certain biases inclined the French to assign lighter eyes and skin and, as well, prompted acceptance of the selections by the Egyptian government. ^{[citation needed]}

Afrocentrists long have charged Hawass and the Egyptian government with mounting a campaign to "destroy" evidence ^{[citation needed]} of what Afrocentrists claim was a "black" civilization. The Egyptians themselves have in turn accused the usually West African descended Afrocentrists (often black Americans) of attempting to appropriate and bastardize Egyptian culture which has nothing to do with West Africa.^{[citation needed]} '' CoYep 07:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Egyptians

Is the section on modern Egyptians really necessary? The title of the article is "race of ancient Egyptians", so why an entire section on Egyptians today? — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · t 20:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, where in the studies cited does it mention that Egyptians are "caucasoid" or are described as southern European? — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · t 20:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't add those studies so I can't say anything about how it describes modern Egyptians. I do believe it's pertinent to the discussion and one section on it isn't excessive. Modern populations are descended at least in part from ancient ones and those who believe Ancient Egyptians were relatively light-skinned often point to modern Egyptians as evidence for their claims. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:40, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, I wasn't actually calling for the total elimination of that section. Nor was I questioning that modern Egyptians are descended from ancient Egyptians. I accept the mainstream Egyptological/anthropological view that population continuity largely maintained its integrity since the dynastic period. But if Egyptians are simply Egyptian, then there would be no "controversy" and no need for this article, and no need to fit Egyptians into discrete categories like "Caucasoid" or "Africoid". The controversy exists because the mainstream view, I assume, is put to question. If this is the case, and proponents of the controversy on either side don't feel that the modern population is representative, then why rely on that as "evidence"? If the intention is to prove that ancient Egyptians were either black or white by looking at their descendants, then it will turn out to be a futile exercise because Egyptians, being mostly a range in the middle of the two, can fit both in different contexts. In any event, I don't intend on editing that section, but if it were up to me I would change the wording that puts modern Egyptians squarely in an African or Caucasian genetic profile, and also the part about southern Europeans! I understand if there is an affinity with southern Europeans, but I have never heard Egyptians being classified as European which the section currently states. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · t 03:04, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

My concern about that particular section is there is no indication what the population samples were like -- for instance what percentages were from the north, as opposed to the south. I do not accept that Upper Egyptians grouped as Caucasoid and had European haplotypes. It's impossible to know from the information presented, and for this reason I'm not certain if the info should be included. Unless such things regarding methodology can be clarified, I'm exceedingly suspicious of the studies cited. Further, there must be a better way to present the information. As it is formatted, it reads like plagiarism. It's footnoted, but the bullets don't make it clear that the material is block-indented.

I tend to agree with Zerida in that modern-day Egypt has changed considerably from ancient times. It's like testing modern-day Americans and trying to extrapolate from that data who the Anasazi were. After all, Arabs have been there since the 7th century, and Egypt is now considered the seat of the Arab world. It's become, geopolitically and in some ways culturally and demographically (at least in major population centers), in some ways more Middle Eastern/Arab than African). And, frankly, I seriously doubt the researchers who came to the conclusion that Egyptians clustered with Europeans and Caucasians went out to the boonies and tested the Upper Egyptian Fellahin out in the countryside in their huts. But there's no way to tell from the information provide -- and therein lies the problem.

Rather than provide possibly misleading information as truth, unless and until it can be clarified, I'm for deleting it altogether. deeceevoice 23:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] more photos needed

this article is getting pretty extensive. long passages go on without single images...making it boring. could we get some more omages? or stop removing the images we DO have.

Justforasecond 00:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy and NPOV is more important than being a little bit boring because it doesn't have images. Images are included in Wikipedia to add to the encyclopedic content and demonstrate something explained in the article. There's no need to have more images than necessary or to have them in sections where they are not explained. They are meant to be a demonstration or explanation, not decoration. If you can find images for a highly deteriorated mummy, for instance, then that would work great for the "Condition and availablity of remains" section. Maybe a small (and localized to show relevant areas) version of the Afro-Asiatic languages map or one for Semitic languages would work for the "Geography and linguistics" section. Better yet, a blank map with just names of ancient languages spoken in nearby areas in the relevant time period would be good. I don't see how we could include an image for melanin tests (unless there's an image of one in process). The Cultural and Religious section probably should have that fellahin girl's image restored, as I see now that the section is badly named and the fellahin picture does illustrate something in the text (instead of being a lone image for decoration). Perhaps "Comparisons to neighboring peoples?" "Textual evidence" could only be represented the actual text, obviously. "Geographic evidence" - same as above for the "Geo. & ling." section under problems, and that's about it. We don't need to put a bunch of representation of Egyptian art out of laziness; we should actually use pertinent images. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 01:07, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm I've never read that images need to be section-specific. Can you point me to some policy that says this? Anyway it is POV to delete images that don't match your POV....Justforasecond 01:35, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

They don't have to be as a matter of Wikipedia policy, but if all the images only illustrate a single section, then beyond the first few sections, the images become redundant and unnecessary. The best way to use them would be to have a variety of different types of images to illustrate each section. I'm not deleting images that don't match my POV, by the way. If Deeceevoice or another editor added dark images of Egyptians throughout the article outside of the relevant sections I would delete them as well. Note how I haven't deleted any additions to the "artistic" or "problems with artistic representations" sections (also the "problems with skin color" one, but I do believe that one should be replaced with an image of modern Egyptians with varying skin color). The addition of all those images does add a POV, whether or not I agree with it (as would the addition of a bunch of dark-skinned images), which should of course be avoided, especially considering the article's subject. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 08:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted lengthy Gaston Maspero passage

Maspero croaked in the second decade of the 20th century. He belongs to that class of "scholars" who tried to find white people in everything Egyptian, as was the fashion of the day. Nofretari came from southern Egypt and is widely considered by scholars these days to have been black. Just Google her. The passage was an overly lengthy missive ostensibly placed there to illustrate the uses of color in Egyptian art, but in actuality a thinly veiled attempt to insert another contention of a non-black Egypt. Heck. Even Petrie, the Father of Egyptology, recognized that Nefertari was "black" -- his words. Maspero was a hack. It is kaput. deeceevoice 07:04, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted Biasutti map

When I first glanced at the map, overall, my immediate, gut reaction was, "This can't be correct!" I googled "Biasutti native populations," and the first thing I came up with was this.[6] It would be nice to find something suitable in the way of illustration for this segment -- but, man. This is so gone. deeceevoice 07:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My Edits

I removed the picture for melanin because the linen-wrapped mummy doesn't show any skin first of all, and that skin would be invariably dark if it did because of the effects of being embalmed for 3 thousand years. I removed the hair image because ancient Egyptians wore wigs, so it's not really useful to have that image unless the text makes clear that it is of an ancient Egyptian wearing a wig. The skin color map we've already gone over. It's for 1940 populations with extrapolations for many areas where he didn't actually collect data. Ignoring the extrapolation part, we're dealing with ancient Egypt here, not 19th or 20th c. Egypt, so the map isn't very useful. I deleted the Maspero quotation as per DCV: it represents an older view no longer held by Egyptologists (symbolism still exists, but it isn't thought to be symbolism in this case). I didn't reinsert Petrie's characterization of Nofrati as "black" because it had nothing to do with the section. The addition to the WEB Du Bois quote was to clear up his beliefs, since the addition of text by the Anon made it seem as if Du Bois believed that Egypt was light-skinned in its early stages. I moved around the images in the art section just because I think it's more aesthetically pleasing to have images on alternating sides. The moving up by one of the fresco was to reduce POV, which I coupled with moving the light-skinned man to the top; the bust I included just for variety (instead of having 2 men in the same position). — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

If you don't object to W.E.B. du Bois's quotation then what do you object to? Who's a former clerk and service coordinator? I notice you removed the section reported by the NYT. Why aren't the opinions of a dentist (note it's regarding prognathism) and a forensic scientist not relevant? And if you said "if these can be included, then this should be too," then why did you remove them? Also, note that if the Maspero note reflects past but not current thought, then it shouldn't be included in the article unless current thought is articulated. I do believe a note about color's symbolism should be included, but using Maspero (or non-current writing on Nofrîtari) isn't the way to go about it. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:48, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

• Not all Egyptians wore wigs.
• Skin color map: See talk Talk:Human skin color and the 2000 version "The evolution of human skin coloration",Department of Anthropology, California Academy of Sciences
• If the Maspero note reflects past but not current thought and shouldn't be included then I'm going to remove Drusilla Houston, Herodotus, Constantin-François de Chassebœuf and Gustave Flaubert as well. Further more, the whole "Typical Africoid/Caucasoid skull" discussion is not a "current thought" either.
• If the dentist would have had a chance to analize the skulls, he would be included. And since he voiced his opinion in a letter to the editor without any further personal information, we can't even check his identity
• I didnt remove the DuBois quote

CoYep 20:58, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

CoYep, were those edits by the Anon yours? &mdsah; ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E

What difference would it make if he were? Justforasecond 04:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

It would prevent me from talking to two different accounts (i.e. on user talk pages) that are actually just one. Plus, it let's me know who to address for the Anon's concerns. If the Anon is CoYep, then I can just talk to him rather than trying to talk to an Anon, who are generally less cooperative and talkative in their edits. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 05:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Yom, it's a given that there's some sock puppetry going on here. It's how people get around violating the 3RR.

• Thanks to whomever lengthened the Du Bois quote. It's marvelous. I didn't include the entire thing, because I wanted to cut to the chase. But if no one objects, hey, I'm fine with it. He states the black African origins of Egyptian civilization and maintains that it remained black through the millennia. I may differ with him about the "mulatto" crap, but I won't quibble. As the song goes, "Black is black."  :p
• I thought the notion of Egyptian headbinding was pretty much a discredited one, but the quote seemed fairly recent, so I did some searching and came up with something recent that gives a nice overview of the issue. I switched it out with the previous, rather lengthy, one-sided treatment of the issue. Hope that's fine w/everyone. (Probably not, but I think it's a fairer treatment.
• And I've reinserted the bust that was there before all the other images in the section. It repeatedly has been deleted without justification. I'm glad the additional text was added to the section. It makes inclusion of the first image (the seated guy) possible. Believe it or not, I didn't want to delete it, but I felt, for the sake of balance, the bust of the woman needed to be there -- and, with the shorter text, it was too crowded to have both. Further, my reordering of the images allows the fresco image to be next to the text that introduces the issue of head shape. This way, it all works out pretty well, I think. deeceevoice 11:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Outdated info?

deeceevoice just remarked "Removed outdated and now contradicted speculations of Maspero re Nofritari andmoved up stray info under "Notes," as it reads better in this section treating art". Well the problem with removing this is that the notion of race as a biological concept is outdated itself. It would be hard to find a learned individual who believed otherwise. We also have speculations from novelists and dentists here. If we remove all the unfounded/outdated/politically motivated stuff we won't have an article. So what sort of ground rules do we want for removals? Justforasecond 19:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, the non-professional stuff should probably go, but I don't see why the opinions of a dentist on prognathism aren't relevant: they're perfectly so as a dentist has studied what causes prognathism and should be able to differentiate between natural and unnatural prognathism. Either way, the outdated info has been replaced with current thinking regarding color symbolism for all ancient Egyptians rather than just a single person, which is better, as what applies for one person doesn't necessarily apply to everyone else unless we make that clear. Also, when did this get moved to "racial characteristics" instead of "race"? I don't remember a discussion about this (though I saw the notice at the top of the page). Also, please note editors by name (also I noted you didn't sign your name, but I'm guessing this was from an oversight where you added an extra tilde ~ on accident), it's more useful that way for discussion. ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 19:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

If this is about controversy I don't see why any of it should go, be it Afrocentrists such as Diop or Eurocentrists like Toynbee(?)....but they should be stated in a way that makes it clear how much weight the pro's give them and where they were coming from intellectually. Hmmm sorry about putting on the extra tilde. I think CoYep might have requested the move a while ago, but it didn't look like people were all that interested in discussing it? Justforasecond 21:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I have reinserted the section on comparison to modern Africans and the comments by the dentist and Herodotus for the reasons noted in my edit summary. CoYep hasn't provided a reason why they are outdated and, in fact, they are not. Herodotus lived much closer in time to the ancient Egyptians than past historians, so his comments are worth noting. Even if there existed a Roman comment (in AD times) noting their blonde hair or something similar, it would be worth noting, contrary to Maspero who reflected a past hypothesis proved wrong, rather than a contemporary comment. The dentist's comment is just as important as Schoch's, I believe, as it is related directly to dentistry, in which prognathism has to be noted as either natural or as a result of a disorder. Of course, he wasn't looking directly at a human, but his opinion still carries weight. I don't know why the section on "Comparison to modern Africans" was deleted. Forensics regularly makes use of cranial analysis for determining race and it is an important part of this debate. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 00:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Make your mind up YOM. You can't delete info's claiming that they are "outdated" or "proven wrong", and then object to deletions which were done because of the very same reasons.

• Herodotus observation was proven wrong by studies done by Titlbach and Lisa Parks.
• That racial categories can be determined by measuring the facial angle, jaw structure and the shape of the head of humans is a 19th century notion which isn't accepted by modern forensic scientists and anthropologists anymore. (See external links)
• Do you seriously suggest that everyone who eyeballed a picture in a newspaper and claims to be a dentist is a reliable source for an encyclopedia?

I'm going to revert your edit. Reinsert all deleted informations or none. CoYep 02:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Herodotus made an observation of the Egyptians he saw at the time. He didn't make a hypothesis that was proved wrong but commented on what he saw was the case at the time. That's a significant difference from the interpretation proposed by Maspero. If Maspero had lived in BC times and made that observation then it would have been pertinent, but his was just a modern guess.
• That's not true. While more than facial angle, jaw structure, and the shape of the head is used to determine race, the use of cranial measurements in determining race is still used by forensic scientists. See Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid, Australoid, Capoid and Craniofacial Anthropometry, where it is noted to still be used in the first paragraph. It is not used genetically, but it still has plenty of forensic use.
• If you really object to the quotation, then fine, remove it. There are many more less reliable sources throughout the article right now, though.

Please consider before reverting, however (and please keep a level head, no need to use all caps for my name). The use of Craniofacial Anthropometry is not outdated and is still used, however. That all outdated information should be removed is generally true, but not so in the case of Herodotus as I noted above. Herodotus's statement is still of interest today regarding the ancient Egyptians despite the findings of Titlbach's and Lisa Park's studies, while those of Maspero regarding Nofritari are outdated (though not those on the symbolism of color - his notes on color are directly tied to his hypothesis on Nofritari, however, so his info on color symbolism unfortunately cannot be used). — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 03:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I actually kinda like the dentist quote. It shows that we're pretty much at the limits of evidence if we have to resort to someone digging up a letter to the editor from a dentist to prove anything. Justforasecond 03:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Assuming it's thought of as substandard evidence, why would it have that implication rather than the implication of bad research? I think it's a bit of reach. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 03:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Just for clarification: You claim that the Maspero quote is outdated and "contradicted" - contradicted exactly by what and by whom? CoYep 03:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Contradicted that Nofretari didn't have dark skin. He contrasts "black" Nubia with Egypt indicating that Egyptians didn't have dark skin, yet paintings of her natural color are a red-brown (as Deeceevoice notes, Petrie said she was "black"). His ideas on color aren't outdated or contradicted and I'd have no problem including a quotation of his on color that doesn't directly concern a single person who is thought to have dark skin. There's an interesting link here on the subject matter as well. Perhaps Deeceevoice could further shed light on the matter as I don't have access to the Petrie quote or characterization. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 04:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

"As Deeceevoice notes, Petrie said she was "black"" It's quite interesting that Petrie "contradicts" already in 1896 a statement which was written 10 years later, namely 1906. One could assume that a book written in 1906 outdates a book written in 1896, and one could further come to the conclusion that when Maspero wrote that "she was taken for a negress" but "later discoveries have not confirmed these hypotheses", he rather contradicts the 10 years older writings of Petrie. But since Deeceevoice notes it's the other way around ... oh well CoYep 05:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... I wasn't aware of that. Are you certain that the 1896 book (btw, which book specifically?) is the only one in which he made such a statement? I believe he wrote after 1916 and deeceevoice might be referring to a later writing, but I can't really speak for her. Still, Maspero's comments aren't necessarily accurate. "Negress" is pejorative and the effect of his comments (regarding color in Ancient Egypt) are currently well explained by the extant text (without referring to a specific person where current thought on color could change). The Maspero quotation implies that Nofretari's skin wasn't black but rather light (the implication, mind you), rather than red-brown. Either way, if you can find a quotation by him simply on color I'd have no objections to including it. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 05:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

That Craniofacial Anthropometry is still used is not going to turn it into a valid or still accepted tool. Or do you think that because some people still claim that there is "black" and "white" blood and still apply the one-drop rule to categorize people means that it's a valid notion?CoYep 04:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The one-drop rule isn't a scientific categorization but rather a personal one and social one. Craniofacial anthropometry is still used by forensic scientists in determining the race of deceased individuals. While it does have problems regarding the classification of Africans (e.g. Horn Africans), it is still helpful and useful in categorization. It is especially used in the analysis of ancient populations and population movements when acquiring genetic information is difficult or impossible. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 04:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

And what about categorizing people by "black" and "white" blood types? It is true that Craniofacial anthropometry is still used by "some" forensic scientists but it is NOT accepted as a valid scientific tool to categorize people anymore. Did you take the time to check the links?CoYep 05:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Huh? Who's talking about blood types? What links are you talking about? I'm confused. The categorization of black and white based on the existence of black blood was a social categorization that existed (and to a degree still does) in America. It was not a scientific one unlike craniofacial anthropometry, and that makes all the difference. It would impossible to say what "racial group" Egyptians would identify with today as race is today more based on social standards. We can make some assertions regarding their genetics and skull and skeleton types, however. That Craniofacial anthropometry is still used by forensic scientists for the classification of skeletons into different races is certainly relevant. In fact, it's really used for no other purpose. If it's primary use is to classify skeletons into races and is the primary tool used by today's forensic scientists, then why shouldn't it be used? — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 05:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Race is a "social categorization", and not a scientific one. That some people still think otherwise doesn't make it true. Just like "black blood" and "white blood" is a "social categorization", and that some people actually think otherwise and classify humans into "racial categories" by blood type (e.g. like Diop did: Africans type B, Whites type A2) doesn't change it either. This discussion is leading nowhere. I recommend that we apply for neutral mediation. out for now. CoYep 06:49, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

First you are telling me that you removed informations because it was allegedly "outdated" by Petries "contradicting" statement, and now you are telling me that only information about color, but not about "race" can be included??? See, I'm losing my patience here. CoYep 05:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

When did I say anything about excluding info on race regarding Maspero? I said that we probably shouldn't use anything by his regarding the color of a specific person due to the age of his comments, as current thought could have changed. If your referring to my comment regarding "negress," it's not the characterization but the wording that I disagree with. The primary use of the quoation was to demonstrate the symbolism of color in Egyptian art, was it not? That's why I said I wouldn't object to a quotation regarding color. I didn't say it to the exclusion of a quotation regarding race, but unless that quotation directly concerned Egyptian portrayals of themselves, it wouldn't fit in that section. That's all. Relax, no need to get angry. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 06:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I assumed that, since you are editing this article intensely, you already checked the links and sources. Well, here is the link to Petrie: http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/seqenenra.htmlCoYep 05:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know that all people's information was coming from just websites. I had assumed that everyone else had access to the actual books (which I do not have access to). Thanks for the link. It says nothing about craniofacial anthropometry, though, so I'm note sure what you're talking about. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E

Further recommended reading addressing outdated pseudo-science:[7][8]

CoYep 05:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

No need to post those links. Of course race is a made up human concept to a degree. However, genetic lineages do exist, which races are meant to reflect (though without a doubt imperfectly). Forensics, while certainly imperfect regarding the categorizing of genetic lineages, does have some use, especially regarding the categorization of people in current socially determined races. However, while the one-drop rule is generally not used and is based on subjective looks (i.e. whether someone "looks" black), forensics uses measurements. So, while it's based socially defined convention to some degree, it's widely accepted and probably one of the better ways we have today to determine "race." If we remove that section, though, then why shouldn't we remove all the other sections regarding race? Why are skin color, hair type, eye color and the like better determinants of race and less subjected to social constraints rather than craniofacial anthrometry? They're not, because race is a social construct, and there's really no logical reason (socially because it's the most visible part of the body) why race should be determined on facial features, when limb proportion, hairiness and the like all have "racial" connections. For instance, craniofacially Horn Africans are deemed to be Caucasoid, but when it comes to limb proportions we're "super-negroid." Despite this, some people consider us less black than Central Africans with more "traditional" (i.e. tropically adapted) facial features, despite being less "negroid" in limb-ratio aspects. You can't use the AAS's statement on race to simply remove the section on craniofacial anthropometry unless you basically remove all of what this article is about right now. And to a degree, I agree that it should be done. It basically needs a total rewrite to be more geared to historical population movements and cultures for pre-dynastic times (and later) as well as genetic information, rather than having all these comments on a subjectively determined subject like race. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 06:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm just seeing this back and forth about Maspero. Petrie's research is far more reliable than Maspero's. re[9]s a link to a book published in 2001 titled In Praise of Black Women, Volume 1: Ancient African Queens. Nofretari (Nefertari) is one of the monarchs featured. The book received good reviews and met with no controversy. Library Journal recommended it for black studies and women's studies collections. There is no debate among modern scholars that Nofretari was black. Here[10] is another link, with photos.

From the stele of Iufi it is certain that Aahhotep was mother of Aahmes I, and hence Aahmes and Nefertari were of the same mother. But yet we cannot suppose them to have had both parents alike; Aahmes is always (except once) shown of the same colour as other Egyptians, while Nefertari is almost always coloured black. And any symbolic reason invented to account for such colouring applies equally to her brother, who is nevertheless not black. As Nefertari was specially venerated as the ancestress of the dynasty, we must suppose that she was in the royal succession appears to have been reckoned, and hence her black colour is the more likely to have come through her father. The only conclusion, if these points should be established, is that the queen Aahhotep had two husbands: the one black (the father of Nefertari), namely, the celebrated Seqenenra, who was of Berber type (Ms. M. 528); the other an Egyptian, the father of Aahmes and his elder brothers, Kames and Skhentnebra, which explains why those three kings are separated from the other children of Aahhotep by her husband Seqenenra, and placed in a different line in the tomb of Khabekht."--Petrie, 1896

A description of Seqenenra Tao, Ahmose-Nefertari's father, James E. Harris and Kent R. Weeks's X-raying the Pharaohs (1973):

Seqenenra Tao: "His entire lower facial complex, in fact, is so different from other pharaohs that he could be fitted more easily into the series of Nubian and Old Kingdom Giza skulls than into that of later Egyptian kings. Various scholars in the past have proposed a Nubian--that is, non-Egyptian--origin for Seqenenra and his family, and his facial features suggest this might indeed be true. If it is, the history of the family that reputedly drove the Hyksos from Egypt, and the history of the Seventeenth Dynasty, stand in need of considerable re-examination".

Further, here is a pic of Ahmose.[11] While not "black" in the Nubian sense of the word, he is clearly an Africoid Egyptian. This is the man Maspero says it was thought he married Nefertari "to secure the help of the negro tribes in his wars," not mentioning (or not knowing) the two were (half) brother and sister and that Ahmose I himself was clearly also black, the son of Theban (Upper Egyptian/black) Queen Ahhotep/Aahotep (17th Dynasty). deeceevoice 13:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Finally, note that Nefertari reigned during the 18th Dynasty, a period widely acknowledged (along with the 17th Dynasty) by scholars, "Afrocentric" and mainstream, as being a period of Nubian rule. deeceevoice 13:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article moved

I moved this article, as there seemed to be no objection to it, and several active editors have checked in on this page since I opened the conversation. The implications of this move are the following:

• The article title is about racial characteristics and not race. Thereby the discussion of "race is not a clear-cut genetic issue" is a relevant note in the article, but shouldn't be the subject of the article, because it's pretty much universally accepted as I understand it. This means that a sentence like "Critics accuse Anthropologist X of using a purely genetic / over-simplified definition of race" is a legitimate sentence, but more than that should probably be redirected to an article about race as an area of study.
• The aim of this article should no longer be to "prove" that the Egyptians "were" a particular race, but to compare the characteristics, both physiologically and culturally, to those of other groups with "established" races. The article is entitled "controversy" -- don't expect the end result of the article to be "The Egyptians were black/white/Arabic/Asian/men from Mars."

This move will, I hope, allow for all reasonable viewpoints on this issue to be included in the article. Of course, the credibility of sources is still an issue, but since the article is about the controversy, critique of the sources can be included in the article itself. I hope this helps a little. - Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} 19:33, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the lack of objection was probably more silence because of a lack of debate begun, but how about changing the title altogether? As noted earlier, the "controversy" over the race/racial characteristics should refer specifically to biased scientists' opinions on their race/racial characteristics. What the article currently discusses is the debate. The best title might be the French one, "Origins of the ancient Egyptians," which would also set up the article to include information on earlier pre-dynastic populations and population movements. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 19:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Race was sort of the key notion here -- the page began as an overly long section in the Afrocentrism article that insisted the Egyptians were, so to speak, "black". In spite of the constant debate, the article being hacked to pieces every day or two and the "great egyptian image battles of 2006", I'm pretty pleased with how its grown. I think we've given this issue a lot of attention, brought together and weighed information from many sources. Unfortunately wiki doesn't tell us how many people have viewed the page but we've undoubtedly been a stopping off point for many curious folks. I'm game to go with a more extensive article but I hope we can retain the racial aspect. Most of us agree that race is sort of an odd concept to apply to the Egyptians but there are entities out there that think otherwise, and this article covered described that phenomenon. Justforasecond 21:21, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

As I commented earlier in this discussion, I wouldn't mind to cut the whole "evidence" sections and rather elaborate on the ideologies/motivations behind this whole "controversy". Editing this article feels like trying to explain to people why the sun is a triangle and not a quadrangle, or vice versa. CoYep 22:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Haha. Justforasecond 23:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree with Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution}. The move is a first step toward making the article more neutral, and having it focus on delineating the "scientific" debate about the racial characteristics of the ancient Egyptians rather than carrying it out here. An article on the "Origins of the ancient Egyptians" would have a completely different focus. Such an article would not represent the history of an ideology in scholarship, but would try to represent as accurately as possible what the current findings are in respected recent scholarship. It might help to start such an article, to keep this article, which I understand to be on the history of this debate (as the title suggests) free from attempts to "prove" one or the other position in the debate. For example, a reference to Nott and Gliddon's Types of Mankind of 1854 would be completely out of place in an article on the origins of ancient Egytians, but it would have a prominent position in the article on the debate. The two articles would capture the scholarship of two entirely different disciplinary fields: one the history of science (and related fields of history and cultural studies) and the other physical anthropology and/or perhaps archeology. The two articles would also be about two different cultural and historical domains: The first would mainly deal with debates in Europe (and later other Western countries) starting in the late 18th century (perhaps moving to a more global perspective as colonization came to an end in the 20th century), and the other would go back to the deep time of ancient Egypt and talk about Egypt and the physical genealogy of the people who lived there. Two entirely different projects--and it seems to me that keeping them separate would untangle much of the argument around what should be in this article and what shouldn't. Much of what is now here should probably move to the other article, here I agree with ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E (if I understand you correctly). --Jottce 07:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Very good points and duly noted Jottce. Thank you for you comments, they really help focus further editing of the article. I think I have an idea of how to procede in ameliorating this article. Right now it's a big fight over the presentation of evidence for or against certain viewpoints. Focusing more on the history of the debate to the present time would be an excellent way to reduce POV and adequately cover the subject. You're also right that an Origins of the ancient Egyptians article would be still differnetly focused, though I do think that the current thought reflected in that (hopefully) future article would probably be incorporated somewhat in the more recent portions of the history of the debate of the race of the ancient Egyptians.

All in all, I think we may have to basically scrap the current article and start over with the basic facts we have from the article, structured completely differently as per Jottce's comments. Perhaps someone should create an outline at Talk:Controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians/Draft. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 07:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

(response to addition about agreement) While some of the information here could go to the other article, I was thinking most would probably stay here, as a lot of the information is from the early 20th century and therefore reflects past debate, or is by Afrocentrist scholars and therefore reflects more current debate. The "Origins" article would refer more to archaeology and population movements, along with associated genetic and forensic studies when applicable. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 07:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, thinking about your points, I think you are right about where the information would fit. Does the chronological structure that I suggested at Talk:Controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians/Draft work for you? BTW: I am sorry for going back to change my contribution above. We must have been at it simultaneously. --Jottce 09:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Looks excellent so far. Seeing your user page, I have to complement you on your English as well. I couldn't tell at all that you weren't a native speaker. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 09:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Jottce, I think both your suggestions and your execution of those suggestions are excellent. This is just the kind of level-headed thoroughness that an article like this needs. Great job. By the way, keeping in mind my own complete ignorance on the subject, is there anything I can do in this particular instance? - Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} 11:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I still think we need the racial element. If we want something about human migrations without afrocentrist pseudoscience, why not just use the human migration article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Justforasecond (talk • contribs) 4 July 2006.

Justforasecond, I don't quite understand your comment, I'm afraid. I need some more explanation. How does human migration come in here? And I am not aware anyone suggested leaving out the racial element. This is what the article is about. As I understand it, the article should present the controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians. Afrocentrist scholarship has taken part in this controversy, so the article needs to talk about it. In fact, without a position that claims ancient Egypt for Africa, there wouldn't be much of a controversy. This article to me is an attendant to articles that record the historical development (and cultural specificity) of the notion of "race," but it also links up with articles that talk about the cultural meaning ancient Egypt has had, particularly in Western cultures. --Jottce 07:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Che Nuevara and Yom for your comments. I think the next step would be to try to move parts over to the draft to see how the chronological structure might work. It seems to me that much that would be moved still needs attribution and contextualization (see my comment about "Ethnographic murals" below). Also, the bibliography I put up is still very rudimentary and one-sided. We need to find scholarship that specifically talks about this controversy. Would it make sense to move the outline from Talk:Controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians/Draft to Controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians/Draft? I have ever worked with sub-pages to articles, and I don't know what the protocol is. --Jottce 08:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Subpages are generally not allowed in the article (main) namespace, because they turn up in things like Random Article. So the draft is fine where it is for now. Putting the draft in the article namespace would probably get it speedied. - Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} 09:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Melanin Dosage Test

Question: Can someone provide a source to the results of the test, the numbers of mummies he tested and what kind of mummies he tested? Diop mentions "mummies from the Marietta excavations in Egypt", but I can't find any informations about the "Marietta excavations". I'm also interested to know how many "white" mummies "with non-existent melanin level" and how many "Black" mummies he tested. Infos appreciated. CoYep 21:55, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Extra-terrestrials

This is regarding Justforasecond's recent edit As far as I'm aware, Schoch doesn't believe in extra-terrestrials. The link for the quotation refers to him defending the scientific claims of a New Ager regarding the age of the pyramid while distancing himself from the New Ager's (West's) views regarding Atlantis and the use of certain ancient Egyptian buildings. I'm going to put a fact on that until an appropriate link is provided. Also, Just, can you please provide edit summaries? It makes browsing changes to the article easier. Thanks. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 07:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

My bad, I lookid it up and he doesn't believe in ETs (he was quoting someone else that does). He did however have an enounter with "phantasms" when he was in Peru Justforasecond 14:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hazel eyes

The Anon editor is back, this time under 207.195.243.51 instead of 84.178.222.241. Please get consensus and explain yourself before adding that image. This is what I put on his talk page:

I'll just comment here since the new (207) IP seems to be the same person. Firstly, are you a puppet of CoYep? I'm trying to figure out which IP is whose so that I can just comment at the talk pages. Regarding the image, you are the only one who has pushed for its inclusion, while both deeceevoice and myself object to the image's inclusion because of its limited relevance and failure to demonstrate the hazel eyes noted in the caption. Please go to the talk page and get consensus before adding controversial information.

ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 07:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I think we can agree that you're not kidding anyone else besides yourself here. You have have been edit-warring on this article for days throughout the day everyday judging by your contributions, trying to fight the inclusion of any pictures that don't support your POVs, which you just as obsessively have been trying to push into the article and exclude most of the information that doesn't match those POVS. The image is valid. it's an image of an ancient Egyptian. This article is about ancient Egyptians. It's not my problem that none of the sculptures look anything afro-centric. Why? Because the ancient Egyptians were not blacks, and were NOT like Ethiopians like you seem to be under the illusion. All the ancient writers distinguished Egyptians from Ethiopians and other black Africans. The fact that you and other afro-centircs want to keep fighting a losing battle is your choice. Maybe you need to keep that in mind. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.195.243.51 (talk • contribs) 07:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from personal attacks. This page is for the discussion of the improvement of the article. I have gotten in an edit war with you, CoYep, but I'm not trying to push my POV on the article. The images I have deleted all have been at most tangential to the section they were included in. I have not removed relevant images, as I do not object to the images in the art sections or in the melanin tests or of modern Egyptians (whose Image I put myself, actually). Thinking back on the geographic map and hair image, I was probably wrong to remove those, however, though I did believe both of them to be of limited use due to the use of wigs and the modernity of the skin color map. Either way, the image of the Egyptian you are trying to include in the King Tut section is barely relevant to the section. Your only basis for its inclusion is the sharing of the same eye color as with King Tut. If the afrocentrist position is that hazel eyes didn't exist in ancient Egypt then it's better to put a textual citation than a tangential image that inadequately displays hazel eyes. I don't know what you mean about a sculpture looking "afro-centric" (how can a sculpture look like a school of thought), but you're way off on your POV accusations. I'm not an afrocentrist, and, unlike you, I recognize that Egypt was multiracial and multiethnic, some of which probably comprised ethnic groups that looked like modern N. Sudanese and Horn Africans, while others may have been Nilotic, or others like the Baggara, as well as some Semitic bedouin tribes in the Delta and Sinai. Either way, you are mixing up what ancient writers said. "Ethiopians" in those text were Nubians and, when used generally, probably referred more to "stereotypical" black Africans. Greek contacts with the area that is now Ethiopia were minimal back then. If you're so sure of your opinion's truth and mine's fallacy, then take it to a user talk page or message board, as the article isn't meant to determine who's wrong or right but to simply describe the debate. I don't understand why you are so antagonistic, though, as I've written with nothing but courtesy, something that you need to keep in mind, along with WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, and WP:AGF. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 09:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Put it up on the admin notice board. They'll figure out if it's a sock puppet. deeceevoice 09:51, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Since this is the second time that you accuse me of being a sock puppet, I advise you to follow DCV's suggestion and request a sockpuppet check here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser I will accept your apology here or on my user page after you got the results.CoYep 14:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Relax, CoYep. It's not an accusation, I'm just trying to figure out who's who, since there are at least 5 IPs that have edited this article exclusively or almost exclusively efore disappearing. That doesn't mean that it's your sockpuppet, but there is certainly at least one sockpuppet. I assumed it was yours because you didn't deny when I asked if the edits by the other IP were yours. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 19:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

take easy on the conspiracy theories man, will ya? What you call "sockpuppet" are the hundreds of thousands who edit articles without bothering to register. You have no right to censor anyone's contributions.

I'm as cool as an ice cube, which is obviously inferred from my posts. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's very unlikely that over 5 IPs would come to simply edit one article and then leave. I'm not censoring anyone, by the way. I never said the IPs couldn't edit the article, just that if they have an account that they should use it to avoid confusion. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I guess for some it's easier to delute themselves in believing that there is only one opponent with sock puppets than to accept the obvious, that indeed several editors are disagreeing with their edits. I often just click on the edit button and start editing, not because "I intentionally want to confuse" you, I simply forget to sign in first. Most of the time I realize it only when I'm leaving a note on the talk page, and my IP shows up instead of my sig. I then sign in and correct my signature, as I did several times on this talk page. So in a matter of fact, one just needs to look at my IP here to get an idea which article edits might be mine. To me, the identity of the editors is irrelevant. Reviewing the edits and sources thoroughly, and to spend time to check the validity and Verifiability is IMO more constructive than to waste time to check user ID's and then blindly revert or accept edits simply because "it was editor x who did it". Anyway, I would appreciate it if you could either a) chill with your false accusations or b) provide the results of a user check so we can put this tiresome discussion ad acta. CoYep 02:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe only one person disagrees with my views, as plenty of edits to this article against my position were by people other than you. I didn't say that the confusion was necessarily intentional, either, but I do think that, whether or not you mean it, it confuses others and any edits under IP don't reflect on your user name. The reason I like to know the identity of the editors is so that I can avoid posting discussions all over the place as I had to when there were numerous IPs editing the page. It's unlikely that so many IPs would edit the article as soon as they got here and then not continue to exist or edit other articles. I'd be happy to be proven wrong as I don't like the idea of numerous accounts, but realize that I am chill. I haven't lost my temper during this discussion, and realize that most of the edits (in fact almost all) weren't about verifiability or validity but the relevance of including some images. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 04:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

* Propose a change from "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit" to "the encyclopedia only registered users can edit"

• There is no need to chase after editors all over Wikipedia to discuss article edits - thats what the article talk pages are for

* It's quite normal for a controversial article to attract a lot of unregistered contributions CoYep 04:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

• I didn't say that anonymous IPs shouldn't edit, but if that IP belongs to someone with an account, then they should use their account.
• IPs tend not to look at talk pages but a comment on their talk page will be at the top of the page as they edit, so I know they'll get the message.
• True, but it's unlikely that they would immediately jump into an article knowing all the terminology and debate that the IPs did.

Look, CoYep. I have absolutely nothing against you. The only reason I filed the suspected sockpuppet case is because I simply wanted to know which edits were yours so that I could sort the contributions and discussion out. You said above that you occassionally forget to sign in and edit with IPs, and that's fine, but I would like you to acknowledge them. If you tell me exactly which IPs you have used to edit this article, then I'll gladly accept those as yours and the rest as not yours and drop the sockpuppet case. That's all. I'm not trying to create hostility or antagonism here. I just want to sort out whose edits are whose. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 04:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

You said above that you occassionally forget to sign in and edit with IPs, and that's fine, but I would like you to acknowledge them. (Yom)

What do you think I was doing when I respondend to your note concerning some of my edits? Who do you think I was referring to when I said: "I" didn't object to the Dubois quote? Or do you expect that people talk about themselves in the third person? And by the way, my comment was even posted with an IP number as a signature till I signed in to sign it properly, so what exactly IS your problem here??? And no, Im NOT user "207", you don't need to be a genius to figure that out, just some rudimental knowledge about IPs. CoYep 05:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I assumed those were yours, but you seemed to be angry that I would accuse you of editing from any of those IPs; plus, you didn't respond to my question, which was confusing if you didn't deny that those edits were yours. That clears up a lot, then. One final question and we can be finished with the whole mess, then, as I really don't like accusing people. Are the other 84.178.2 edits yours as well? — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 05:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

man..... that's just sad.{{subst:untitled2|17:23, 5 July 2006|207.67.145.219}}

This isn't an advertisement of the case but simply a notice that I have filed a suspected sockpuppeteer case against User:CoYep here (see also here). — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 01:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

A comment for the anonymous contributor with the IP 207.195.243.51: I think your assertion that "This article is about ancient Egyptians" points to what I see as a misconception. As the title suggest, this is an article about a controversy that takes place mostly outside of Egypt. The decision of whether to include an image or not should be based on whether this image has been important in the debate and the caption should indicate where and how the image was used to make which point. This is not the place for performing the controversy by adding yet another piece of evidence for one or the other position. --Jottce 10:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I dont think the anon is coyep. Lets all try to get along here. DCV, you cannot do a checkuser unless the user is persistently vandalizing. Justforasecond 16:39, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

As far as the images go, I think its ok to include a fairly large number. Originally we just had a handful and one looked, according to DVC, "just like gwendolyn brooks". With those images a casual observer might think artifacts were pretty evenly distributed between light skinned and dark skinned. But if the true breakdown of artifacts is different, we should show that, even if it takes 15-20 images to give readers a feel for it. 16:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

And that description of the photo of Queen Tiye wearing a Nubian (Afro) wig was accurate. You may recall that another, white Wikipedian concurred and produced a link to portrait of Brooks when she was younger that was strikingly similar. They looked like twins. I have no problem with several images, either, as long as the presentation is balanced and there are no "fake," trumped up captions claiming "hazel eyes" where they aren't at all visible (assuming they're there at all), "tan" skin when the object clearly was once covered in red-brown ochre which is still visible in spots, and "light skin" when the "skin" is actually (and very clearly) linen wrapping. Diversity in images is fine, but let's not make this a circus. deeceevoice 16:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I recall that the bust looked like Bridget Bardot with dark skin and not so much Gwendolyn Brooks. But yes it did appear to be a rendition of a black woman. It was one of the most compelling pieces of evidence that the any of the Egyptians were dark skinned in the article (though some editors claimed it was just because the material used was a dark unpainted wood). Come to think of it, where is that image now? Justforasecond 18:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Ethnographic Murals" as example for the origin of the debate

The article as it stands now uses a (cropped) 19th-century drawing of an Egyptian mural as evidence for the "ethnographic" awareness of ancient Egyptians. It is an excellent example for what I think is wrong with the direction of this article. The image has no attribution, which is a significant omission. It looks very much like the paintings of Ippolito Rossellini which were published in Monumenti dell’Egitto e della Nubia (1832-1844) and may well originate from a reprinting of this work. Rossellini had travelled to Egypt with Champollion (the famous decipherer of the Rosetta Stone); these 19th century explorations of Egypt were important milestones in the history of Egyptology, but they are also part of the history of colonization and ultimately served European colonial interest. Moreover, there are other revealing instances where these drawings were used in the 19th century. The illustration to the right here shows a similar rendition of the wallpainting in Types of Mankind (1854), a classic example for 19th century scientific racism. The caption reads: "The ancient Egyptian division of mankind into four species--fifteenth century B.C." It is interesting to note that the controversial recent publication Race: The Reality of Human Differences (Boulder, Colo.: Westview Press, 2004. ISBN 0813340861) by Vincent Sarich and Frank Miele uses the self-same image (p. 34) with the following caption: "Egyptian wall painting showing four races." The image in Sarich and Miele serves as "evidence of the Egyptian awareness of racial difference" (p. 34).

To me, this example shows that it is absolutely indispensable to historicize the controversy. It certainly does not start with 20th-century Afrocentrism. It is very revealing to see that much of the controversy points to racial tensions in the West, and particularly in the United States, starting with the slavery debate. When Enlightenment philosophy, as put into practice in the American Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, brought up the notion of equality, and African Americans began to claim it as their right, it became necessary for the apologists of slavery to collect evidence against the humanity of black people. If they were not human, they could be excluded from human rights with impunity. Ancient Egypt, its artifacts and human remains have been instruments in this debate and seeing historical interconnections makes it easier to reveal "evidence" as ideology. I put up a rough outline of a more historically aware version of this article here: Talk:Controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians/Draft. --Jottce 11:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I did some more searching and found a site that attributes the painting used in this article under "Ethnographic Murals" to the Prussian explorer and early Egyptologist Heinrich von Minutoli (1820)[12]. It is a site devoted to a "rebuttal to Afrocentric exaggerations about a "black" ancient Egypt," so not entirely neutral, but the attribution seems trustworthy. Nevertheless, the original question, why a 19th century European drawing of an Egyptian wall painting has circulated in the debate around the racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians, remains interesting. --Jottce 07:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] True Ethnographic Murals, Egyptian represented as true negroes in the tomb of Ramses III

photography representing races on the wall of Ramses III Tomb: http://www.geocities.com/enbp/images/races3.jpg

The Negroes on this picture are Egyptian, called Remetou, in mdw-nTr: http://www.africamaat.com/IMG/jpg/G1E-s-2.jpg

This fact is more emphasized in this picture: http://www.africamaat.com/IMG/jpg/RACES33.jpg

N.B. Remetou, in mdw-nTr: http://www.africamaat.com/IMG/jpg/G1E-s-2.jpg, was the generic appellation for the kemets.

Caid--84.130.54.45 09:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] completely uncited

"Brace's study has faced some criticism, however. It had a greater number of samples from Europe and each sample represented a specific ethnic group whereas his samples from the "sub-Saharan" region were very small and were not specific since each sample represented a country ^{[citation needed]} . Doing this exaggerated Europe's cranio-facial diversity to be greater than that of sub-Sahara, even though African populations possess far greater biodiversity and sub-Saharan African is much more vast, with thousands of ethnic groups. Even India, which has hundreds of ethnic groups, was represented by just one plot on his map. Further, the samples that Brace chose to represent sub-Saharan Africa consisted of those peoples who represent the stereotypical "true-Negroid" phenotype, with broad features and woolly hair. Even so, there are black, Nilotic populations in sub-Saharan Africa (as well as North Africa) who have narrower features and relatively straight hair and who, thus, have been classified by some as Caucasoid, as in the case of some Ethiopians, Nubians and Sudanese. In the case of the indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley, Caucasoid does not mean Caucasian, or white. The result of such classification was that Egyptians as well as Nubians and even Somalis clustered closer to Europe because of certain similarities, while Melanesians and Australian aborigines clustered closely to the sub-Saharan sample because of certain similarities shared between them."

This should probably be deleted outright as it has no citations and sounds like original research. 155.91.28.232 21:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I wrote the language cited above. This was an attempt at clarifying the wholly unfounded, erroneous -- and uncited -- conclusion in the paragraph that extrapolated from the "Caucasoid" classification of some (black) Northern Egyptians and their consequent grouping/clustering with Europeans that Dynastic Egypt was "biracial." It was necessary to distinguish between indigenous, so-called "Caucasoid" (black) Africans and Cauasians, or whites. If the misguided, erroneous text about "biracial" and the business about Northern Egyptians grouping with Europeans and being called "Caucasoid" is removed, then there's need for the explanation. But as long as it's there, it's needed -- because people will see "Caucasoid" and think "Caucasian"/"white." deeceevoice 21:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey DCV, I'm more lenient than the average wikipedian when it comes to original research, but when you say "Brace's study has faced some criticism" we need to have someone that was criticizing. Given his resources, I'm not really sure Brace's approach was incorrect. It's also not obvious your conclusions are correct. Why would we expect Egyptians to cluster with Europeans if what you say about diversity is the case? I think we'd only expect this if they were in fact closer to Europeans than Sub-saharans.

If you want to say (breifly) that some Ethiopians are listed as Caucasian that is alright, but to say "black Nilotic populations" is misleading, we've already agreed that black is not biologically meaningful. It becomes even more confusing to a reader when you refer to "black" people that have straight hair, narrow noses, and who are called Caucasian. Justforasecond 23:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

DCV, you are the one who talks ad nauseam about "Typical Africoid skulls" = "Black Africans" and "Typical Caucasoid skulls" = "White Folks". You even added skull pictures to the article to "prove" your point, and almost all your edits are about eyeballing pictures and to declare them to be "black" because they allegedly have "Africoid" head shapes. Brace's study was based on cranial measurements, and now, since he came to the conclusion that the skulls are rather "Caucasoid" than "Africoid", you all over sudden flip the script and claim now that "Caucasoid" skulls are the ones which are characteristic for "black Africans"? Furthermore, you stated in your "criticism" section that "each sample represented a specific ethnic group whereas his samples from the "sub-Saharan" region were very small and were not specific since each sample represented a country." This assertion is incorrect. Brace's 1,282 samples didn't represent "specific ethnic group", they all represented countries and different specific periods, such as Neolithic, Mesolithic, Bronze age, etc. for European as well as for African countries (and Middle East). I also wonder how much "woolly hair" a skeleton might have. I really would like to see your source. Please post it. CoYep 06:58, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't write the paragraph in its entirety. If you'll check the edit history, this version is a rewrite. Further, someone else on this page also said they were familiar with Brace's work and took issue with the utterly unfounded and uncited conclusion that Egyptians were "biracial." And, yes. I introduced the "Negroid" skull illustration to this article -- but I also took pains to call it an example of a "classic" Negroid phenotype; it is not an Africoid phenotype, because there is no singular Africoid phenotype. "Africoid" encompasses all the vast phenotypical variation of African peoples, including limited prognathism, narrower nasal indices, relatively straight hair, extraordinarily elongated limbs, etc. "Flip[ping] the script" is when whites make ridiculous assertions about how certain clearly black Nilotic/Cushitic peoples are "Caucasoid," naming them after a European geographic referent, after a branch of humans who migrated out of Africa -- their mutated offspring -- all in an effort to distort the true history of the region. I could just as easily write, "If you have a source that definitively says that Brace asserted that the ancient Egyptians were somehow 'biracial,' then 'I really would like to see your source. Please post it.'"

But, hey, that preposterous language, with its misinformed/uninformed POV jumping to conclusions, has long since been deleted -- which is what I tried to do in the first place. Mission accomplished. deeceevoice 05:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "arabized"

Given, however, that the ethnicity of Egypt's population of Egypt varies from urban to rural areas, with more Arabized populations

This is a bit racist and presumptuous. Can we steer clear of language like "Arabized"? Reminds me of the "Africanized" killer bees...Justforasecond 15:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thosee are your value-laden presumptions -- what you bring to it, and not the language itself. deeceevoice 17:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Can you explain how? I really don't see the racism in it. Any one that considers him or herself an Arab and lives outside of the Arabian peninsula and is not a descendent of people from the Arabian peninsula, from the Maghreb to Iraq is an arabized Arab (Adnan or al-'Arab al-Musta'ribah). The real Arabs (al-`Arab al-Aribah) or mixed with arabs (al-'Arab al-Muta'aribah) are a minority. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:23, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

It sounds as if being arabic is a disease. It is also uncited and begs the question: saying Egypt is now "arabized" implies that it wasn't before and -- that it was previously something else ("black African" as DCV puts it) Justforasecond 20:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Being arabized means that they didn't speak Arabic or consider themselves Arabs (something that's a bit of a new phenomenon, beginning mainly in the 20th century, actually) in past times, which is obviously true because they spoke Egyptian and Coptic. Being arabized has nothing to do with race as it only affects Ethnicity. Northern Sudanese are Arabized and I would say they are black (they generally look no different from Ethiopians), but people in the Maghreb and Syria are also Arabized, but very few of them (there are some black Berbers) could be classified as black. Relax, Justforasecond. Besides, this has nothing to do with the article at hand. Please address it at Talk:Egypt or request an arbitration or comment on it if you think it's important. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the note but I think we should try to keep "arabized" out of here. It sounds just like those "africanized" killer bees which many african-americans thought was racist. if it's a 20th century thing then it doesn't effect skin color tests anyway so is sorta irrelevant. Justforasecond 23:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

That's your mind, your association. "Arab" is not inherently pathological. If immigrants can be "Americanized," then populations can be "Arabized." Just because it's not in your vocabulary doesn't mean it's not a legitimate word. Google it. Stop raising absurd objections and picking wholly unnecessary fights. deeceevoice 05:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] everyone hates hawass

There's this: According to a widely publicized press release dated May 10, 2005, Zahi Hawass of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities (SCA), announced that "Based on this skull, the American and French teams both concluded that the subject was Caucasoid (the type of human typically found, for example, in North Africa, Europe and the Middle East)."

Then a paragraph later about Susan Anton supposedly objecting to this. Only thing is, elsewhere in the article it is explained that Ethiopians and Sudanese are sometimes Caucasoid. So what is the big deal about Hawass saying the skull is Caucasoid?

Justforasecond 23:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Hawas claimed the teams (plural) involved in the reconstruction proclaimed the skull specimen as that of a "Caucasoid North African." He lied. Anton flat-out refused to use any such terminology. The problem is plenty of scholars don't accept the term "Caucasoid" when referring to black Africans. It's absurd. It shoehorns certain Africoid peoples into a narrow, "Negroid" category (with a crappy name unrelated to their origins) and then assigns another category to other Africoid peoples -- Caucasoid -- associated with white Europeans and a European point of origin -- when, in fact, the "Caucasoid" Africans are simply another manifestation of the tremendous biodiversity of African peoples -- a branch of which migrated out of Africa and is responsible for the white folks who exist today. We object to the term "Caucasoid" to describe black people. It's utter b.s. and a way to artificially differentiate among black people -- and also a means, in the hands of those who continually twist history to the service of white supremacy, of whitewashing another high civilization; because, as with the "anonymous" edit warrior, people make the ridiculous assumption that "Caucasoid" means white, or at the very least not black -- when, in the case of indigenous African peoples (Maghreb Berbers notwithstanding), the very notion is laughable. That portion of humanity which mutated into Caucasians sprang from that population of black Africans with a modified or absent alveolar prognathism. Therefore, it is Caucasians who resemble certain African peoples -- and not the other way around. (It would make more sense to refer to blacks as Africoids and call "Caucasoids" "Ethiopids." After all, you don't name the father after the son.) No one in their right mind would assert that some Kenyans, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Sudanese and some Nubians are not black people simply because some of their population have little or no prognathism and fairly straight hair. And you'd have to be completely insane to call them Caucasian/white. In fact, some of these same "Caucasoid" peoples are among the blackest human beings on planet Earth, having an almost purple cast to their skin. deeceevoice 00:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I actually emailed Susan Anton and ask her whether Hawass lied. She said no. So....stop slandering the man. But anyway, my question is, when you in one place say Sudanese and Ethiopians are "Caucasoid", and you seem to be trying to prove that King Tut was Sudanese (remember the time you said you saw Tut workig at Rite Aid?) then its not reasonable to indict Hawass for saying King Tut was a Caucasoid.

And ya know, I think you might reconsider your views on who is black. Educated people have studied this in a lot of detail, and found out that there is no biological basis for breaking the world into white and black (or black and everyone else). There is really no standard you can provide....you're willing to call medium-skinned people with straight hair, narrow noses and lack of "prognathism" black and you dismiss any study by real experts that clusters people in a way you don't like. Justforasecond 04:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I traded several e-mails w/Anton and would be more than happy to forward anyone a copy of the e-mail in which she flatly denied ever having used the term "Caucasoid" to describe Tut. My God, JFAS. Do you know anyone from Ethiopia? How 'bout Sudan? You cannot credibly pick and choose a few characteristics, take them completely out of their continent of origin and call them a name related to the Caucasus Mountains, a place to which they have absolutely no connection or relation. These indigenous, black, African peoples are no less black, no less Africoid, than the Bakongo, the Ndebele, the Akan, the Dinka. The biodiversity represented among African peoples is simply a fact. It is thought that both the Cushitic peoples and the Khoisan are the two oldest branches of humanity, with the Khoisan being the older of the two. Ethiopians, like Nubians, are not themselves homogeneous peoples. Some are brown-skinned, others are more of a medium tone, some have kinky hair, others have straight hair. The same is true of Nubians and Somalis, but such variation can be seen within the same families, and this is true among unmixed populations.

Hawass is widely known in archaeological circles as an egomaniac and a tyrant. I don't know what Anton wrote to you, but if she tried to soften my language (she never used the term "lied"), it doesn't surprise me. Hawass punishes researchers and scholars who don't toe the party line. He's the gatekeeper to Egypt's archaeological past, the Grand Pubah of the "Supreme Council of Antiquities." You talk about a black Egypt, he's been said to get positively apoplectic with rage, and you don't get the kind of access Anton got -- ever again. deeceevoice 21:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The term "Caucasoid" when applied to certain Nilotic blacks is nothing more than another attempt by Europeans to claim what they do not own. Let us examine the matter of King Tutankhamen.

• Fact: For years, scholars have speculated that Akhenaten, Tut's presumed father, had Marfan's syndrome. Why? Because of his strikingly elongated limbs.
• Fact: A striking feature of the Nilotic phenotype is their slender, longer-than-the-human-average limbs. The term "gracile" is often used to describe Nilotic peoples (like the Dinka) in comparison to other groups of humanity.
• Fact: Tut was described as "slightly built (gracile or gracefully slender)."
• Fact: Akhenaten had other distinctly Africoid characteristics: pronounced maxillary and alveolar prognathism, extreme dolichocephalism, full lips. As the father of Tutankhamen, it is expected they shared other traits in common, as well. Akenathen was a black man, the son of the Nubian Queen Tiye.
• Fact: Tut's head. Ridiculously, "extremely dolichocephalic" with a sagittal ridge.
• Fact: And, no. Head binding among the Tutmosid line has been a discredited theory for some time, confirmed by the latest CT scans of Tut's skull. And, no, Tut was not diseased or genetically "deformed" -- more silly theories also disproven by the examination of his remains in 1995 2005(!). Thank goodness for modern medical technology. Otherwise, like the fictional, utterly fabricated "Queen of Punt syndrome" (the queen had the hallmarks of a Khoisan woman) they'd have made up something else to try to rationalize Tut's blackness, too.
• Fact: Africoid peoples (as well as the classic "Negroid" phenotype) are distinguished from the two other racial groupings by dolichocephalism. The only nonblack peoples known for this trait are Nordics -- not likely present in Dynastic Egypt.
• Fact: The sagittal ridge is also typical of dolichocephalic Africoid peoples. It is, in fact, what African Americans call a "peanut head."
• Fact: Tut's teeth. Majorly big incisors paired with a pronounced alveolar prognathism (his mummified head with the lips pulled back -- the poor kid looks like a gerbil), with the result being a receding chin.
• Fact: Three more characteristics (large incisors, prognathism and receding chin line) of the classic Negroid phenotype.
• Fact: Nilotic peoples are also known for large incisors and the same type of prognathism, producing a bucktoothed appearance and a receding chin line. These features are exaggerated among certain Nilotic groups (e.g., Somalis) -- as they were in King Tut.
• Tut's eye sockets: Clearly rounded.
• Fact: Negroid/Africoid peoples have rounded eye sockets, whereas Caucasians have more squared/ovoid sockets.
• Fact: The entire Tutmosid line available for study has evidenced these same characteristics, including Princess Meritaten, who is clearly and obviously black African. Further, the Father of Egyptology himself, Petrie, described Meritaten's mother, Nofritari, as "black," and likely two-thirds black.
• Fact: The only characteristic of Tut which falls outside the narrowly defined classic Negroid phenotype is his narrow nasal index. It does, however, easily fit within the parameters of some Nilotic peoples, who are (also) black.
• Fact: The images of Tut in his everyday life -- those without symbolic significance -- all show him with deep, red-brown/brown skin and dark eyes. The French team completely ignored this fact -- something which defies logic.
• Fact: I also traded e-mails with and also telephoned with the guy on the French team. (After realizing he spoke only a little more English than I do French, we returned to e-mails.) He evidenced a shocking and complete lack of knowledge about the indigenous peoples of the region and seemed utterly out of his depth on this matter. Communicating with him was a complete waste of time. Anton, who recognized the Africanness of the skull specimen right away, knew far more than he did -- without knowing the specimen's identity.
• Fact: Conflating a singular characteristic, which happens to be part of a specific cluster of Africoid traits characteristic of only one known ethnic group on the planet, Nilotic blacks -- one which allowed Anton to reconcile the apparent contradiction between an "obviously African" skull in all other respects with the narrow nasal index and pinpoint the African skull as "North African" (not "Caucasoid," but "North African" as opposed to equatorial/sub-Saharan African) -- to such a degree as to then call Tut a "Caucasoid" is absurd. Tut's skull and physique exhibit the classic Nilotic phenotype in spades. He was nothing other than a black African pharaoh.

Finally, Tut's case is important not because he was a great king or his reign of great consequence, neither of which is the case. His is a classic example of the ridiculous extremes to which Zahi Hawass, Egypt's Arab government and other Europeans have gone, and continue to go, to appropriate the fundamentally black African identity of Dynastic Egypt. deeceevoice 09:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

You didn't address my question at all. In one section you claim that Sudanese, Ethiopians, etc are called Caucasoid. You call Tut Sudanese (remember you said you said he was working at Rite Aid?). Then when Hawass suggests Tut is Caucasoid you call him a liar. Why? I am positive Susan Anton never said anything of the sort.

And communicating with the French team was a waste of time because they don't agree with your preconclusions? I have to wonder about the everyday non-symbolic renderings of Tut you speak of...I'm really not aware of them. And FYI I speak to a Sudanese fellow on a daily basis. I asked him about the Egyptians (the Fellahin), according to him they aren't black and never have been.

BTW, you still haven't explained why you dismiss clusterings done by EXPERTS that group Egyptians ("Nilotic Blacks" as you and no one else call them) with Europeans. Justforasecond 15:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• I never called Tut Sudanese. I said ran into a Sudanese man who bore all the classic Nilotic characteristics as Tut. But did he look like Tut? Nope. In case you didn't notice, yeah, it was tongue-in-cheek.

• No. Communicating with the guy was a waste of time, because he seemed befuddled by my questions. He seemed to be utterly clueless. If he had disgreed with me, I wouldn't have been surprised. That he seemed to have no grasp whatsoever of the matters that Anton and I discussed in detail was not only surprising but truly disappointing. Granted, the guy's specialty is criminal forensics (he's part of Paris' agency that deals w/law enforcement), but I would have expected at least some broader knowledge on his part related to forensic anthroplogy or some other related field that would have better qualified him for the effort in which he was involved. He was clearly out of his depth. He's different from, say, a Hawass, who knows damned well what he's doing. deeceevoice 16:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• It depends on what country you're talking about and, in the case of Egypt, what part of Egypt. I've presented plenty of informed opinion and quotes on this website which provide ample evidence that the Fellahin of Upper Egypt are darker-skinned and noticeably Africoid/Negroid in appearance. That your friend would say such a thing doesn't surprise me. There are Egyptians who will swear up and down Egyptians aren't black Africans. And then there are others who readily acknowledge that they are Africans and black people (even when they're very, very mixed. There are African Americnas who will swear we have nothing in common with Africa, too. Neither knowledge nor ignorance is a given, based on ethnicity or point of geographic origin; it's about what you know. But you can bet that no Ethiopian or Somali in his right mind going to tell you they're white, or "Caucasian." :p deeceevoice 16:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• And, no. "Egyptian" is not synonymous with "Nilotic," (though Egypt is, of course, in the Nile Valley). The region also has Cushitic black people and blacks of the equatorial type. In fact, the Khoisan, before they were pushed south, inhabited the region. Cushitic blacks are the population most commonly associated with the ridiculous "Caucasoid" classification. Nubians in the popular imagination are often thought of as being solely of a sub-Saharan type -- but, in fact, Nubians are a mixture of Nilotic amd sub-Saharan types, some with broad features full lips and nappy hair, others with straight hair and narrower features. Again, it's simply a matter of naturally occurring biodiversity among Africoid populations. deeceevoice 16:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Just a note, but "Cushitic" and "Semitic" are ethnic terms. There is little difference genetically between the Cushitic and Semitic peoples in Ethiopia (with the exception of some Cushitic-speaking groups in SW Ethiopia with gene flow from S. Sudan). Cushitic people tend to be darker because they're generally at lower latitude (except for the Afar, who live in the NE desert); same altitude Cushitic speakers like the Agaw and Bilen are the same color as Semitic-speaking groups. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 16:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] response to deeceevoice

"Caucasoid" is different than "white" as you well know. You've claimed Sudanese are caucasoid yourself. "Africoid" does not appear to be a scientific term (neither is Afro-Semitic). Anyway, you asked if I knew any Sudanese and it just so happens I talk to a Sudanese man regularly and he says your claims are bogus (he actually giggled at them). Sure, he might not be an anthropologist by trade, but I wonder sometimes how you are privvy to this privileged info that it seems neither scientists nor locals nor truly anyone has other than perhaps the late Diop.

I'm thinkin of mailing Hawass to see what his take on it all is. I'm guessing he'll reply with the info that scientists and academics and locals use and not "King Tut was a white Arab!" or anything similar. I saw him on TV and he wasn't an extremist of any sort.

As for DNA that Hawass won't let be studied, you might be interested to know there is no DNA test for "blackness". Any DNA test would come down to clustering a number of samples and predetermining how many "races" to break the world into. If you tell the computer that you believe there are 3 races you'll get 3 races. If you tell the computer that you believe there are 50 races the computer will group people into 50 races. Anyway, when scientific tests have failed to lead to your pre-determined conclusions in the past you've criticized them.

Anyway, the reasons Egypt won't permit any DNA testing is twofold

1. the tiny bit of DNA present in egyptian mummies requires extracting their teeth, thereby damaging the mummies
2. DNA testing hasn't worked on Egyptian mummies that are in the U.S., etc.

Oh and btw, my Sudanese friend considers himself black. It's the Egyptians that he says are not. Justforasecond 22:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I haven't claimed the Sudanese are "Caucasoid." I've said there are some who classify them that way. I would never characterize black Africans as "Caucasoid." It's a misnomer.

I don't claim to be privy to any special information. Your claim that no one else seems to be aware of the info I presented above on Tut is absurd. It's easily available to anyone who takes the time to do their research.

The opinion of your Sudanese friend means nothing to me. There are Africans who don't consider African Americans black.

You can try e-mailing Hawass, but my bet is he won't respond. He doesn't like being questioned. I e-mailed him at the same time that I e-mailed Anton and the French guy and -- no surprise -- received no response. But, hey, whatever floats your boat. His e-mail addy is: Hawass@sca.gov.eg deeceevoice 01:17, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Wrt to the Sudanese man, which claim? The long list posted by DCV, or the part about Fellahin? I don't know about Fellahin in general, but I know an Upper Egyptian (who considers himself black) who is very knowledgable about Ancient Egypt, population movements, genetic studies, and the like, who considers most Upper Egyptians black, and believes that there were both "Classic Negroid" and "Ethiopid" types, along with some Levant populations in the eastern Delta and Sinai. Either way, none of this has to do with the development of the article, either in its current state or in its future state as per Jottce's proposal, so I suggest you continue the conversation on a talk page or elsewhere. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 22:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

DCV asked me if I knew any Kenyans, Ethiopians, or Sudanese. I know people from all three nations (the only Egyptian I know is what DCV would call "highly miscegenated" or "highly arabized"). Anyway, the one I asked about "black" Egyptians said it was all wrong. Justforasecond 01:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

• Just one quick, easy example of the kinds of dialogues that, in my experience, regularly take place between African Americans and Egyptians around this issue from my talk page right here on this website. The Egyptians I've known and associated with consider themselves black. [13] deeceevoice 01:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

From the link: "Fellahin are not dark skinned in general...we dont identify as being black or white simply....My sister passes for black in the american sense I don't though i don't pass for white either...my family has decendants from Ethiopia.Zakaria mohyeldin".

Nice try, but I guess desperation does that.(some unsigned comment)

So now we've got a Fellah saying Fellahin don't consider themselves black and you are telling him he's wrong? Huhhh? C'mon, what will it take? Scientists, Sudanese and Fellahin themselves all agree.. Justforasecond 03:53, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

And African Americans for the longest time also shunned the term black. It is common for people of color to deny their true heritage and to aspire to be something other than who/what they are when confronted with, raised under a racist, color-conscious regime. See below for a description of the "average" Fellah and note that, as I repeatedly have said, those of Upper Egypt are darker.

FELLAH (pl. Fellahin) , Arabic for " ploughman " or " tiller," the word used in Arabic-speaking countries to designate peasantry. It is employed especially of the peasantry of Egypt, " Fellahin " in modern English usage being almost equivalent to " Egyptians." In Egypt the name is applied to the peasantry as opposed to the Turks and the townsfolk. Fellah is used by the Arabs as term of reproach, somewhat like the English " boor," but rather implying a slavish disposition; the fellahin, however, are not ashamed of the name and may pride themselves on being of good fellah descent, as a "fellah of a fellah." They may be classified as Hamito-Semites, and preserve to some extent the blood of the ancient Egyptians. They population of Egypt and are mainly Mahommedan, though some villages in Upper Egypt are almost exclusively Copt (Christian). Their hybridism is well shown by their great divergence of colour, fellahin in the Delta being sometimes lighter than Arabs, while in Upper Egypt the prevailing complexion is dark brown. The average fellah is some-what above medium height, big-boned, of clumsy but powerful build, with head and face of fine oval shape, cheek-bones high, forehead broad, short flattish nose with wide nostrils, black but not woolly hair. The eyebrows are always straight and smooth, never bushy. The mouth is thick-lipped and large but well formed. The eyes are large and black, and are remarkable for the closeness of the eyelashes.[14]

See also an archived section at Talk: Egypt under a bolded, informal subhead (it does not appear in the page table of contents) The Fellahin of Upper Egypt - a Response here.[15]

And here[16] is another link, to a discussion board (with photos) moderated by author Kola Boof. deeceevoice 08:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Cmon DCV -- really, what is the standard for when someone is "black"? If experts and the folks themselves don't believe they are, then can we stop calling them "black africans", "nilotic blacks", etc? Justforasecond 18:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Justforasecond 17:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I gave you credible, recent, reliable mainstream sources. I provided links. I'm done. deeceevoice 17:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

deeceevoice, that is is an excerpt from a book review. a book review of a novel. you even said so yourself: "Consider this book review of Shahhat, An Egyptian, by Richard Critchfield". And as for the racialist Kola Boof? Sheesh, the woman claims the was Osama Bin Laden's mistress! But thanks for the link. Justforasecond 18:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irrelevant stuff

looks like the little afro-centric warrior is famous [17]. The regurgitated processed bovine food and vitriol are hard to miss. ROFLOL —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.67.145.219 (talk • contribs) 01:03, July 6, 2006 (UTC)

Nothing better to do than Google me on the Internet, huh? (Did you read where the author corrected himself?) You have neither the guts nor the integrity to sign your own posts and seemingly lack the intellectual wherewithal to debate the subject matter at hand in an intelligent fashion. And for a diversion this is the best you can do? Kinda sad/pathetic, frankly. If I cared, I'd be embarrassed for you. Instead, I just gotta shake my head. Poor dear. deeceevoice 02:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

here's another one. the afro-centric warrior asking black people to come and joing her edit warring on Wikipedia [18]

Greetings, my sisters (and brothers).

I'm an African American woman living in the U.S. capital. I've just now happened upon this wonderful place and would like to invite those who read this message to wikipedia.org. The website needs proud, black, knowledgeable contributors -- and it needs you BAD! While writing skill helps, a discerning eye to correct dis/misinformation and racist bias, and knowledge about Africa and the diaspora are even more important. It's an opportunity to write about whatever interests and moves you and to learn from others.

I hope to see you there. Please stop by my user page if/when you come, so I know you were there and let me know your impressions.

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Peace 2 u. -- deeceevoice

Man.... some people are DESPERATE. LOL—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.67.145.219 (talk • contribs) 01:38, July 6, 2006 (UTC)

A post made long ago, when I actually believed in the project to combat systemic bias on the website. These days, I would never, ever invite anyone to this website. deeceevoice 10:48, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you read what Wikipedia is about. The more contributors the better. Especially of an underrepresented group, as we're doing our best to counter systemic bias. Also, please refrain from personal attacks. It is a bannable offense. You have been warned. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 02:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

please, I don't see preaching to the queen of incivility here. That's right because you're both biased and your views on this topic lack honesty, which is why you both have been furiously edit warring on this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 02:08, July 6 (talk • contribs) 2006 207.67.145.219.

Has deeceevoice called anyone "DESPERATE" or an "edit warrer" on this page? I don't see any such edits. You should learn to assume good faith, as it is a fundamental pillar of Wikipedia. Do not accuse me of being intellectually dishonest. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 03:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Yom. I have referred to the "anonymous" editor as an "edit warrior" in my edit notes. They repeatedly have reverted edits without a good-faith attempt at explanation or discussion. I'd say it's an accurate characterization. deeceevoice 08:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

But remember, receiving personal attacks still does not give the right to make them back at the attacker. It's clear that you're frustrated, and I would be too, but refraining from phrases like "neither guts nor integrity", "lack the intellectual werewithal", and "kinda sad/pathetic" is probably a better course of action. The anonymous 207 editor is out of line, I agree -- don't let him/her bait you into stepping out of line as well. You don't want to expose yourself to the risk of getting in trouble because of one person being incivil to you. - Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} 09:05, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

What is "clear" to you isn't the case. I'm not frustrated. Just engaging in some plain-speak. deeceevoice 10:48, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

People, I think it is best to ignore the comments of 207, even though they are completely unacceptable. This page should be about improving the article. There is a saying in German that goes something like: "What concern is it to the strong oak tree when the sow rubs against it?" Someone who posts his/her comments without signature and without signing in is not worth the energy of people genuinely concerned with improving the Wikipedia. --Jottce 11:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personal email from Dr. Brace Northern Egyptian samples

I personally emailed Dr. Brace asking him why his Giza series clustered with Europeans. What he told me personally was that the sampled populations he had for the Northern Egyptian series does not date back to the pre-dyanstic era but around the Late Dyanstic period when foreign mercenaries were settled around Giza. Also, I am curious why that nobody here is citing Brace's new study published in 2006? How about the work of Dr. Keita on North-eastern African remains?

Also people need to stop using Dr. Brace for a proof of a caucasoid northern Egypt because Dr. Brace himself does not believe in any of the races such as caucasoid,negriod,or mongoloid.

Can somebody tell me how I can add citations to the article? (unsigned post)

Very interesting. Then guess that the 52 skulls from the Egypt Bronze (Naqada) (3300 BC: Predynastic Period) he is referring to in his list of samples and his study are just a persistent typo ... CoYep 11:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

CoYep, can you provide sourced quotes from Brace's study that specifically contradict the post above? If so, it would be helpful. This is precisely why I deleted the faulty and uncited conclusions inserted in the last paragraph of that section. The person who wrote it conflates "Caucasoid" to mean "Caucasian," writing about a "biracial" Egypt. Without being familiar with Brace's study and having no direct quotes, I could tell immediately that it was faulty and suspected the author had no proof of Brace's purported finding. The author repeatedly has edit warred the material back in, with no citation, no explanation. It should stay gone until this matter is resolved.deeceevoice 11:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for your interest. :) Unfortunately, one of the tenets of Wikipedia is "no original research." If your "citations" involve the insertion information from an e-mail, then they cannot be included in the article. For instance, I cannot use my e-mails with Anton on Wikipedia. If the information you wish to include appears in print or has otherwise been copyrighted, published, recorded, disseminated, then it can be used. Also, if Dr. Brace would like to comment, he is, of course, more than welcome to do so. If you would like to include Keita's information, then by all means do. Peace. deeceevoice 10:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed new article structure

For anyone who hasn't seen it, Jottce has outlined a new structure for this article, which can be found here. The reason for it is the following: Being as the article is called "Controversy over ...", it sould not attempt to determine actual the origins and characteristics of the Ancient Egyptians. Strangely enough, that belongs in the proposed article Origins of Ancient Egyptians, like it is on French Wikipedia.

The article is dangerously bordering on original research as a few editors attempt add to and remove from the article as suits their beliefs on the topic. The article, as mentioned above by Jottce, ought to discuss the studies themselves, and the established criticisms on the studies. I think Jottce's outline on the subject is great.

Any discussion of "The Ancient Egyptians were ..." belongs in a different article. - Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} 16:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The French article is just a translation of this one. Justforasecond 17:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't read French, I was just informed that that's the name of the French article. But this article right now leans more towards "origins" than "controversy" anyway, so it's a valid comparison. Take a look at the outline, you'll see what I mean. - Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} 18:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Check out the french article -- it's got the same structure as this one (broken down into linguistic, geographic arguments, etc). They might have a better soccer team but we're a better source of Ancient Egyptian controversy! Justforasecond 20:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I would love to check out the French version of this article, if I could read French :) - Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} 21:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

My bad -- there are actually two french articles but they look pretty similar. TOC:

• 1 Obstacles in the determination of the race
• 2 Thesis afrocentrist

O 2.1 Kemet: “black cotton soil”

• 3 linguistic Arguments
• 4 geographical Arguments
• 5 artistic Arguments

O 5.1 sphinges of Gizeh O 5.2 ethnographic Murals

• 6 Analysis of mummies

O 6.1 Tests of mélanine O 6.2 Analyzes cranial and medico-legal rebuilding + 6.2.1 Comparison with the modern Africans + 6.2.2 Reconstitution of the appearance of king Toutânkhamon

• 7 religious and cultural Arguments
• 8 old Authors
• 9 Appendices

O 9.1 Notes O 9.2 References and translation http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=fr%7Cen&u=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_over_race_of_Ancient_Egyptians

Dear all, I checked out the French article -- and its discussion page. It seems to me it was indeed translated from English at an earlier point (in fact in March of 2006 if you check the history page) and people have edited it from there. It is interesting to see how the discussion progresses differently as well. The first entry talks about renaming the article using the English example (rough translation courtesy of google):

• "I do not agree completely on the title of the subject! indeed there is the word discusses [debate/controversy] which was omitted, it would be necessary to re-elect the subject, the English title being Controversy over race of Ancient Egyptians"
• "I agree with you, but I have [the] funny [strange?] impression that the article of the wiki EN [has been] written by a guy of the black nationalist movement (of the sort of fr:Parti Kémite or the fr:Tribu Ka)." (fr:Discuter:Origine_des_anciens_Égyptiens).

This doesn't mean we shouldn't use the title "Origins of ancient Egyptians" for a new article that represents current research on the physical genealogy of ancient Egyptians. But the French are perhaps not the best model for such an article. As I see it, the different development of this article also points to cultural differences. I haven't found anything resembling the controversy of the "race" of ancient Egyptians on the German Wikipedia. It is, I am convinced, not a coincidence that the greatest expertise in this area is found in the United States. I am afraid, that such a project may loop back into controversy again. --Jottce 09:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] deleted per discussion?

deeceevoice, a quote was deleted today as "per discussion" -- was this really discussed? i don't see it on this page.

Justforasecond 19:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

• [19]
• [20]

The assumptions of Maspero are contentious, contradicted by other scholars (including the most prominent Egyptologist of the time, Petrie, the Father of Egyptology) and, frankly, just not essential to the points being made -- that colors often were used symbolically in Egyptian art and often don't reflect actual skin tone. This article is rife with controversy. And as Yom stated, there's no point in introducing something contentious that isn't even critical to the discussion -- precisely my rationale when I made the edit. I think, though (I haven't gone back and checked), I recall noticing that the information that once was at the bottom of the article under "Notes" a while back that treated the issue of the use of color in Egyptian art (that I moved up to that paragraph in place of the lengthy Maspero missive) ended up getting deleted at some point by the same "anonymous" edit warrior.Pe I think it should probably be restored. It fit there and looked kind of dumb at the tail end of the article all by itself. I think it had to do with the black guardian Tut statues (if I recall correctly). I think it was useful info and should be restored. deeceevoice 10:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• Petrie was contradicted by Maspero, and not the other way around.
• This article is called "Controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians", if there wouldn't be any contradicting statements, it would simply be an article about "racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians"
• It would be great if editor Deeceevoice and Yom would stop to remove perfectly sourced text because it doesn't fit their POV.

[21] [22] [23][24] [25]

• It would be also great if editor Deeceevoice and Yom would stop to remove pictures because they deem them to be "not black enough" [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46]
• I further recommend to read Wikipedia:Reliable sources "Posts to bulletin boards and Usenet, wikis or messages left on blogs, are never acceptable as primary or secondary sources. This is because we have no way of knowing who has written or posted them. In the case of wikis, the content of an article could change at any moment, and there is no editorial oversight or third-party fact-checking" and "Self-published sources as secondary sources Personal websites, blogs, and other self-published or vanity publications should not be used as secondary sources. That is, they should not be used as sources of information about a person or topic other than the owner of the website. The reason personal websites are not used as secondary sources — and as primary sources only with great caution and not as a sole source if the subject is controversial — is that they are usually created by unknown individuals who have no one checking their work. They may be uninformed, misled, pushing an agenda, sloppy, relying on rumor and suspicion, or even insane; or they may be intelligent, careful people sharing their knowledge with the world. It is impossible to know which is the case. Visiting a stranger's personal website is often the online equivalent of reading an unattributed flyer on a lamp post, and should be treated accordingly."

Double checking the sources I realized that there are many personal websites cited as "reliable source". In order to avoid removal, editors might want to replace them with acceptable sources. CoYep 14:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with CoYep that it is best to refer to scholarly sources, which in most cases are still print sources or refereed online journals. As I see it, there are different types of sources, primary sources (texts that engage in the debate, e.g. Frederick Douglass' "Claims of the Negro Ethnologically considered" or Types of Mankind, or their 20th-century equivalents), and secondary sources (texts that study the controversy itself). Since the article is about the controversy, it should, I think, take an outside perspective and historicize the controversy, which means it should present the different positions, but be guided by secondary sources. The article should represent the controversy from a perspective as much outside it as possible, which to me means that if images are used, they should not serve to "prove" one or the other position in the controversy, but to illustrate the different positions as equally as possible. Another article that would present findings on the Origins of Ancient Egyptians, as suggested by Yom, would present current research in the area.

About quotations from primary sources: I think extensive quotations go beyond the scope of an encyclopedia entry. I feel we should stick to paraphrase and summary here. --Jottce 15:06, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

There is also the possibility to create a gallery rather than to illustrate the sections. Might be a way to end the edit warring and the claims that pictures do not fit the sections or that there would be too many pictures if the pictures of both sides would be included. CoYep 15:19, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anonymous edits labled "rv vandalism"

I noticed that there was an anonymous user (207.195.241.51) who reverted the good-faith edits of deeceevoice labeling them as "vandalism." I think that is completely unacceptable. On a controversial subject such as this, I think major reverts such as this should be discussed. Anonymously going through the article with an ax to eliminate sections you don't agree with will not improve anything and does violence to the Wikipedia process. --Jottce 09:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Did you even bother to read the edit history? CoYep 13:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Please play nicely. Jottce is one of very few people working on this article article who has not engaged in provocative, uncivil, or abusive language. Being nasty to her is completely uncalled for. If you have something to point out, please do so, but don't bite at people who did nothing to you. - Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} 14:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, but asking her if she checked the edit history is far from being "nasty". It would be fine if she could chill with biting people without double checking. Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers CoYep 14:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

CoYep, I did read some of it, not all; it's a frustrating read. I assume you are asking this to suggest I would come to a different assessment of the situation if I had read the history more thoroughly. But my point is valid even if I had never taken a look at the edit history. Even if someone has performed edits 207.195.241.51 felt were wrong, all the more reason to discuss them openly. Anyone interested in improving the article to a point where the dispute can be resolved should attempt to de-escalate the conflict rather than aggravating it. For this reason, I also think editing anonymously is not a good idea at this point. --Jottce 14:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

"I assume you are asking this to suggest I would come to a different assessment of the situation if I had read the history more thoroughly.(Jottce)

Indeed, especially re: "going through the article with an ax to eliminate sections you don't agree with"

"But my point is valid even if I had never taken a look at the edit history."(Jottce)

No, it's not. I agree that checking the edit history is quite tiresome and frustrating, but it's not acceptable to attack someone because you assume things without checking the situation thoroughly. There need to be at least 2 parties for an edit war, and assuming simply because someone edits with an IP instead of an username s/he is automaticly the "bad guy" is also unacceptable. You just need to check the diffs I provided above (and these are just the ones of the last week) to see who actually kept on removing informations from the article, and who were the ones who restored them.

"Anyone interested in improving the article to a point where the dispute can be resolved should attempt to de-escalate the conflict rather than aggravating it."(Jottce)

Agreed, but taking sides based on assumptions is not a way to cool this article down.CoYep 14:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

deeceevoice blanked a fairly long passage. at least on the face of it it seemed to be in furtherance of a pov. i think 207.... said "rv blanking vandalism". i guess you could say 207 is not assuming deeceevoice's good faith, but then you wouldn't be assumignt 207's good faith. ;) Justforasecond 15:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

YoCep, and Justforasecond I concede that it was wrong for me to criticize 207.195.241.51 the way I did before double-checking whether deeceevoice's edits were in fact "good faith" edits as I assumed they were. I wrote too quickly. If I appeared to take sides, that was not my intention, and (if you are reading this, 207.195.241.51), I apologize for the wording of my criticism. I would criticize similar behavior in anyone if I noticed it. But, being wary of vandalism, I do pay particular attention to edits by anonymous users. I did not assume 207.195.241.51 was the "bad guy" though. What I criticized was clearly defined behavior, behavior I consider counterproductive in any edit situation. And I stand by the content of the criticism, to whomever it applies. My appeal, then, goes to both 207.195.241.51 and deeceevoice and anyone else involved in circular edits-reverts to take a step back from carrying out the controversy in the article and moving it to this talk page. What are your main grievances? Perhaps we can resolve them collectively. The issue seems to be larger than the inclusion or exclusion of individual passages or images. --Jottce 16:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

hey man, no big deal. this is just wiki after all ;) Justforasecond 19:27, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey woman, actually. ;) — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 19:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Ethnographic Murals" - the question of the "real thing"

An editor inserted a question next to the drawing of the ethnographic mural, "Why not show the real thing?" which Yom reverted, and rightly so since the question belongs to the talk page. I haven't seen "the real thing" nor do I know whether it was not just as faded in the early 19th century when the original of the drawing shown here was made. The reason that I am bringing this up here is that the image sorely needs an attribution that clearly contextualizes its origin. The different versions of the drawing are filtered through 19th century racial sensibilities. The image is a small selection from a room covered with human figures, and the image as it is shown here is again cropped from the drawing. The image does indeed adequately illustrate the controversy since it is a recurrent element in it, but it is definitely not a reliable source for "ethnographic" conceptions that existed in ancient Egypt. And as it is placed in the text right now, it deceptively appears to illustrate precisely those conceptions: "As can be seen from the adjacent painting, ancient Egyptians usually portrayed themselves differently from both the Nubians and the ethnically Semitic Middle-Easterners/North African Bedouins." It would be much more appropriate in an article on the controversy to use this image as well as its equivalents in Types of Mankind (1854) and in Race: The Reality of Human Differences (2004) to illustrate its function in the controversy. This function, as I see it, has been to suggest that in terms of racial thinking, there is not much difference between the ancient Egyptians and contemporary culture, the conclusion being (as faulty, in my opinion, as the premise) that "race" is an unchangeable category, either in human biology or in human culture. What do you think? --Jottce 11:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I assume that the "real thing" the editor is referring to is what Afrocentrists love to bring up as "evidence" that Egyptians and Nubians are identical: the image of the one Nubian erroneously labeld as Egyptian in the book of gates [47] which was addressed by Lepsius in his book "Denkmäler aus Aegypten und Aethiopien" [48][49]. I didn't like the drawing either, so I added some time ago some links to the original tomb images (Nubian [50], Asiatics [51] Egyptian [52] Libyan [53]) I agree with you that the text should emphasize that the distinguishing criterion wasn't "race", as we know it today, but nationallity/cultural affiliation. CoYep 13:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the links to the images. From my perspective, what needs to be done in the article is to explicitly address the ways in which the different images have been used in the arguments of one or the other side of the debate. The article should not suggest one or the other side was right or wrong, because right or wrong are always relative to what counted as knowledge at that particular historical moment. --Jottce 19:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I gotta say something.......

Um, I haven't been to this article in quite a while, and I could barely recognize it. What the hell happened? I have many problems with the article in its current state, deecevoice and yom, the only two editors who have an ounce of sanity and objectivity, this is not applied to you, so please excuse my impending tirade.

1. "racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians" WTF? Is that an appropriate title for the article? Shouldn't it be "Racial affinities of ancient egyptians?" That sounds more logical, but "logical" is a little too much to ask at this point since the article has fallen to hordes of ideologues, isn't it?

2. Large parts of the article have been illogically deleted, like a good part of the OBJECTIVE cultural analysis of Ancient Egypt. Once again, WTF?

3. I know you guys did not just DELETE the part about the cranial analysis of the new kingdom royal mummies. That section did not need to be removed, it was fine as it was. Somebody put it back please.

4. What the hell is up with the damn art show, what the fuck is the person who did this trying to prove, many of those portraits are idealistic, so if you were looking to prove that the egyptians were "caucasoid", you failed, and made an ass of yourself, whoever you are. Why don't put up a picture of Menes, Djedefre, and Amenemhat just to even things out? Hmmm.

5. I notice alot of my data, which was from EXPERTS in the field of craniometry (SO keita) or Egyptology (Frank Yurco) were deleted. That wasn't even right.

6. Just for a second, you need to stay away from this article, you're not contributing anything positive, in fact, you're exacerbating the situation. Sorry, bub.

That's all I gotta say, I might try to salvage this mess, and make the article decent, but then again, sometimes you just have to say "fuck it."

Peace. Teth22 16:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Saying that deeceevoice is the only editor with an ounce of sanity could be construed as less than civil, Teth. Justforasecond 17:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

not to mention as rather surreal. Also, "racial affinities"?(??) dab (ᛏ) 17:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Birds of a feather flock together. CoYep 13:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Teth22, I am sorry you feel this way. But it is the nature (and the strength) of Wikipedia that it is in a perpetual state of transformation. One person cannot and should not control this process. This article is relatively active, as, I guess, all articles relating to race will be. I have so far only contributed to the discussion and refrained from editing the article itself because there is so much contention around it. I have, however, as of Yom's suggestion, put up a draft outline of an alternative structure for the article that would take on the issue from a historical perspective. What is important to me is that the article now performs the controversy that it should represent and historicise (the title is "controversy over ..."). Yom suggested to start another article that would deal with current scientific findings on the genealogy of ancient Egyptians and reference the article on the controversy, but not deal with it. --Jottce 16:29, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's the draft. --

Jottce 16:32, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

That looks nice, you could be on to something yet, peace. Teth22 19:27, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

It looks like again, rock solid evidence that shows the Egyptians were more black than the current climate is willing to accept... that was removed from the article... Yet then people will say we need cited proof of that position. Who is the editor doing this? I put images of Tutankhamun, Queen Tiye, I put information about settlement patterns in antiquity, and I also described very clearly the issue regarding the recent forensic variations in the 3D reconstruction of Tutankhamun. Why is that not here? --Zaphnathpaaneah 05:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd noticed, too, that large sections of the article have been deleted -- mostly by an anonymous editor. I've made a quick attempt to restore the information I wrote under the "forensic/cranial analysis" portion, but I'm not even certain that version hasn't been messed with. But, inexplicably, the section on cultural and religious evidence (along with the great photo of the Fellah child) has been deleted. This is important stuff. I recommend that the old section on cultural evidence be reconstituted, incorporating the section on "art" and whatever other aspects of culture are addressed herein, such as language. I haven't been paying serious attention to this piece for some time -- just dealing with the art business. It needs a good onceover. The article has been hijacked and shamelessly Bowdlerized --with no attempt whatsoever at justification. deeceevoice 10:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Deecevoice, I can't help but congratulate you for restoring alot of the old material back into the article, in other words, thank you for putting the FACTS back in. I have one question though, who is the author of the website you linked to under the cranial analysis section, it can't be from Atlas of the Royal Mummies, since the page cites studies past 1980, the book's publication date. Can you help me out there? Thanks. Peace. Teth22 17:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Complete and Utter Lack of Objectivity

1. This article should not a be a propaganda piece to either get people to say, "Those egyptians are black," or "Those egyptians are white."

2. This article should give people :

a. a history of the controvery from its roots to its modern state

b. the afrocentrist claims

c. the eurocentrist claims

d. the mainstream opinion on these claims and the debate

People should come away from this article understanding the conflict, the different perspectives, why they exist, and how everything got to be the way it is now. To be honest, this article would be better if it's current state was scrapped and it was started over from scratch. I do not need six paragraphs to tell that Diop was wrong.Altarbo 02:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I personally do not think Diop was wrong, but I agree with you, that there should be a greater clarity in this article, with the distinctions you were talking about. This article feels biased in favor of the eurocentric point of view, but more importantly, it fails to frame the controversy within the political context. It refers to so-called afrocentrist concerns, but it does not address at all (IMHO) the centuries' old (apparently intentional) efforts from eurocentrists to ensure that the debate disappear, and that everybody simply accept the fact that Ancient Egyptians had nothing to do with either Axumite, Kushite or Bantu Africans, because it was, at the time, politically, socially unacceptable, considering the racial politics of the time. The afrocentrists are attempting to counter the effects of the eurocentrists past (proven, or perceived) misdeeds. And that is the debate I was expecting to see here. And it is nowhere to be found. Thus it creates a situation where the Afrocentrists are presented as misguided passionate fools, that are opposing an unexistant opponent, in an unnecessary argument. Which IMHO, is the farthest thing possible from the truth. I am just saying.Themalau 10:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

indeed. As it is, this article effectively serves as /dev/null for polemic noise nobody is going to read anyway. No intelligent reader is going to be swayed by rhetorics they read on Wikipedia. It would indeed be best to scrap it all and reorganize as a clean presentation of the 'controversy' as suggested by Altarbo. Afrocentrists ("AEs were black") and Eurocentrists ("AEs were white") are passionate fools alike, the difference being that we have no direct evidence that the Eurocentrist claim is in fact proposed. I object, of course, to the implication that mainstream scholars pointing out that such Afrocentrists as do claim "AEs were black" are passionate fools are labelled "Eurocentrists". Saying "the question is moot" is not identical to saying "AEs were white" after all. dab (ᛏ) 16:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I do see your point, but allw me then to object in this way: It is quite easy to say that the point is moot, when one (and I don't mean you) is from a Western ountry, that has the position of power that we witness. It makes much less sense whe one is black, and one has been systematically taught - direcly or undirectly - by the Euro-West that one's race is worthless, and never amounted to anything. Then the possibility of one's race having spawned (one of) the oldest civilizations in the world becomes a very potent symbol, and a possible source for redemption and vindication. In these conditions, this is definitely not a moot point, or an unnecessary debate. And any person from the West who cannot see that is, IMHO, being if not somewhat eurocentrist, at least not objective. Furthermore, even the fact that the term afrocentrist is used in this page several times, in a fairly pejorative and dismissive way (like Deeceevoice said a bit further down), that insunuates a radical and negligible agenda (at least that is ow it comes out), is already a testimony to the subjectivity in this very article. I mean seriously, is it really that radical for people to conjecture, and seek confirmation, for the fact that a people who lived and developed in Africa, may actually look at other Africans? And when people believe they have found such undeniable confirmation, and publish it, is it necessary for them to be faced with blanket resistance, and animosity? The answer to this last question would be no... if the discussion were truly in the interest of knowledge. But it seems hard for some to conceive that Black people (or their cousins) could ever accomplish what the AE's did. Thus it is important that this dialogue occur, and that the question be resolved. These are not moot points. They are far from moot. Themalau 13:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The article has done point b credibly well. What you are reacting/objecting to is a lack of credible evidence/information with regard to point c. The so-called "afrocentrist" arguments have been fairly well put forth here (and in other permutations of the article, some of it expunged), though considerably more could be, and will be, added. That the article lacks more information on the eurocentrist side is, IMO, reflective of the fact that there are precious few credible modern-day scholars who successfully can argue the eurocentrist viewpoint -- and certainly not the tradtional, old-line "dynastic Egypt was Semitic (or white/Caucasian)," or some other such utter nonsense. The racist/eurocentrist "scholars" of the nineteenth and early to mid twentieth century have largely died off and have been replaced by those with a more balanced view of the past, harkening back to the scholarship of the ancients and of Petrie, the Father of Egyptology, who knew the truth.

If people have respected, scholarly information, then let them bring it forth here. After all, those who wish to advance theories/information supporting a eurocentrist viewpoint are certainly perfectly capable of contributing -- as much so as those who do not. The "problem" is the eurocentrist paradigm is itself a largely discredited one. What you have here is a case of "common knowledge," presumptions and assumptions colored by racist historians and the ignorance of whitewashed, pop-culture images, as well as a calculated campaign of disinformation that has yet to catch up to even the true scholarship of Petrie's time. The "problem" is what is being labeled (often dismissively, pejoratively) "afrocentric," certainly at least with regard to scholarly investigation and study in that vein, is simply nothing more than the truth. deeceevoice deeceevoice 08:18, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Question

Why was this taken out (is it factually incorrect or what?):

Approximately one-third of so-called "white" Americans have detectable African DNA markers or craniofacial traits that would forensically categorize them as "Negroid."^[1] And about five percent of so-called "Black" Americans have no detectable "Negroid" traits at all, neither craniofacial nor in their DNA.^[2] In short, given three Americans, one who self-identifies and is socially accepted as U.S. White, another one who self-identifies and is socially accepted as U.S. Black, and one who self-identifies and is socially accepted as U.S. Hispanic, and given that they have precisely the same Afro-European mix of ancestries (one "mulatto" grandparent), there is no objective test that will identify their U.S. endogamous group membership without an interview.^[3] In practice, the application of such forensic criteria ultimately comes down to whether the skull appears "Negroid," "Caucasoid," or "Mongoloid" in the eyes of the forensic practitioner. [unsigned post]

I substantially rewrote the earlier portion of this section a while back, because it painted an inaccurate and incredibly POV and grossly misleading picture of the usefuless, accuracy and scope (of utilization, which is worldwide) of the use of faciocranial analysis, characterizing the methodologies as being used by only Americans, and solely to shoehorn specimens into strict racial classes or categories. The fact of the matter is the use of faciocranial analysis in forensic and criminal anthropology is alive and well -- and a well-respected and time-tested discipline that more often than not yields highly accurate results.

I removed the section to which you refer because it was simply TMI and not directly relevant to the matter at hand. The current language succinctly states that there are complicating factors with faciocranial analysis when examining mixed populations. Studies citing African-Americans and Carol Channing, yadda, yadda, yadda, are not immediately germane here. This information may be appropriate to an article on forensic anthropology, or forensic methods, or some other such subject -- but not here. It's simply too far off the point/extraneous.

Finally, and less importantly, but particularly with regard to the case of King Tut, the examination of whose remains is discussed in the article at length, this information is particularly irrelevant, because there is no indication whatsoever that Tut was mixed with anything. In fact, it would be extremely difficult to find a more by-the-book, exaggerated example of the classic Nilotic (black) phenotype, which Tut's remains clearly show him to have been. The precise cluster of faciocranail attributes exhibited by Tut's skull belong to no other ethnic group on the planet. (Coupled with the information known about Tut's physical stature, "gracile," longer and more slender than the human norm -- like the Dinka, like the Tutsi, their strikingly long limbs an adaptation to extremely hot climates in order to disperse heat more efficiently, Tut's racial/ethnic identity is not even open to question.) There is absolutely nothing in his faciocranial structure (or physical stature) that would indicate he was mixed with anything (not even another Negroid/Africoid phenotype) -- which is what allowed Susan Anton of the American reconstruction team (the only team of the three who collectively were unaware of the skull's identity), even absent the information about physical stature, to accurately pinpoint the specimen's origin first clearly to Africa (it belonged to a black man) and then to North Africa, as opposed to sub-Saharan/Equatorial Africa. And, again, the expunged text is simply an (unnecessary) elaboration of the already-stated difficulties of faciocranial analysis in ascertaining "racial"/ethnic identity (or geographic origin) of human remains in racially/ethnically mixed populations.

The next couple of paragraphs are a bit off-point, but let me take the opportunity here to say:

• Further, not only is faciocranial analysis useful in determining racial/ethnic identity, but in some cases (particularly when the specimens adhere point by point to certain phenotypical models/criteria), it allows not only for accurate reconstruction of facial features, but for extremely accurate racial/ethnic/geographic assignation and designation of eye, skin and hair color, as well. For example, a skull exhibiting all the hallmarks of the classic Mongoloid phenotype would be highly unlikely to belong to a person with blonde or red hair and grey, green, blue, or hazel eyes, nappy or curly hair and "black" or dark brown skin. Because of the absence of any feature that would indicate mixed ancestry in populations which possess fairly uniform skin and eye color and hair texture, such features can be fairly accurately extrapolated from the faciocranial evidence. The same can be said for a specimen exhibiting all the hallmark characteristics of a classic Negroid/Africoid (Equatorial) phenotype with regard to the inappropriateness of assigning straight hair and fair skin, or for a skull possessing the characteristics of the classic Nilotic phenotype with regard to assigning blue, green, grey or even hazel eyes; fair/white or light brown skin and blond hair. Many Nilotic peoples are among the blackest on the planet, some so dark, they have a blue-black or purplish cast to their skin.

• In the last instance -- that of Nilotic populations -- which is directly germane to the Tut specimen, it should be quite clear to any objective observer that the specimen should have been assigned dark brown or nearly black skin and dark eyes -- and particularly by the two teams who were aware of the skull's identity, given the abundant examples of artwork showing Tut with precisely such attributes, dark brown/red-brown skin and dark eyes. There is absolutely no example of contemporaneous artwork of which I am aware where Tut is portrayed in everyday life (i.e., non symbolic contexts) in any other way -- and never with hazel eyes. And therein lies the basis for the voiciferous -- and, IMO, thoroughly justified -- criticism of the French team's model. There was clearly a thinly veiled agenda afoot to whitewash the result, which has been Zahi Hawass' track record. Any professional worth his/her salt would have used the contemporaneous depictions of the king as the basis for such making such decisions in producing a credible reconstruction. And, to their profound discredit (and I would say "shame" if they had a conscience, which they apparently do not), they did not. deeceevoice deeceevoice 08:16, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganization

I tried to reorganize the article so that it flowed more logically. I haven't added much, and I tried not to delete the more relevant parts of the article. The History and Origins sections are mainly from Jotce's draft article; they should definately be expanded.

I tried to split the controversial eurocentrist and afrocentrist claims into two sections. With the subsections I was trying to follow a pattern of explaining each claim, and then explaining if it's a mainstream belief, and if not, why not.

The last section was just because I felt those two parts of the article were good, and wanted to keep them. Something like a summary of the modern egyptologist perspective should be added that incoporates the material in them.Altarbo 23:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, if you haven't, take a look at Jotce draft page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Controversy_over_racial_characteristics_of_Ancient_Egyptians/Draft I think the way the history is laid out there would good way to organize it.Altarbo 23:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bowdlerization of the article and the reasons for my revert to original

And who decided the article should be mutilated in such a fashion? Where is the substantive discussion regarding such drastic changes? I'm only just now discovering the existence of Talk:Controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians/Draft -- and, looking at the edit history, other than User:Jottce, who opened the draft, there were only two other contributors weighing in on it before such drastic changes were made. Apparently, I'm not the only editor who missed the existence of the page altogether, given the scant mention of it here. There are problems with this version, as well, with the explication of Afrocentrism, IMO, incredibly condescending/inadequate. I've restored the original, admittedly flawed version until some sort of rational discussion and more participation cah be had regarding a proposed redraft. The article as it is framed now, in a sort of false dichotomy of views, is unacceptable. Further, much of the supporting information of the earlier version has been deleted wholesale, which is utterly unreasonable/unjustifiable. And who decided which images to use? The redraft is not only mind-numbingly uninformative, but a total snore. deeceevoice 08:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Please remember to remain civil, deeceevoice. It isn't OK to describe other editors hard work as "mind numbling" and "a total snore". Justforasecond 16:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Isn't it obvious?

Isn't it rather likely, almost certain that Egyptians, like all current North African peoples, represent a transitional group between the 'white' peoples of the Middle East and the 'black' peoples of sub-saharan Africa, with (probably) skin becoming darker the further south you go? This whole article seems rather pointless to me. BovineBeast 16:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a "transitional group," but you are so incorrect.

You don't know what I mean, but I'm obviously wrong, eh? Race is a continuum, not a series of definite 'races'. Europeans become Middle-Easterners become Egyptians become Sub-Saharans. Even if the Arabs only entered egypt recently, there's always going to have been interbreeding on the border of Egypt, between them and the Canaanites. And so arises a continuum. BovineBeast 23:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

What? "... like all current North African peoples"? Like the purple-black Sudanese? Like the blue-black and brown Nilotic blacks of the region? The brown-skinned Cushites of the region? The fact is the original peoples of northeast Africa all the way to the coast were black Africans. The archaeological evidence supports that fact -- as does the huge, honking statue of the Great Sphinx located where?

Last time I checked, the Sphinx was a kind of sandy brown. Not 'black'. The Ancient Egyptians may have had darker skin than they do now. They may have looked a little less Arabic. They probably resembled modern Copts, who have less Arab ancestry. The Copts vary, of course. As you can see from the Copt article, some of those represented have mostly 'africoid' features and some of them look fairly indistinguishable from the Arabs. As I said, transitional. I find it bizarre that you can't see that the whole *idea* of race involves splitting what is in fact a continuum into various arbitrary discrete blocks, called 'white' or 'black', or whatever. It's a pointless and, quite frankly divisive endeavour which serves very little scientific purpose. BovineBeast 23:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

At al-Jizah -- Giza -- a little more than 100 miles from the North African coast. Furthermore, there is no single Egyptian type. They have been Arabized culturally and genetically over the centuries. (The Arabs didn't even arrive in great numbers in Egypt until quite late and didn't assume power until the seventh century A.D. The farther north one goes, the more Semitic/Afro-Semitic the people look. The Fellahin of Upper Egypt are clearly Africoid, with darker skin and woollier hair. deeceevoice 14:08, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The "evidence" supports this fact so strongly that we can't find a single scholarly reference (unless you count dyed-in-the-wool afrocentrists) that says so. "Afro-Semitic": a term that didn't exist until the above editor coined it. Google and you'll find a band. The "clearly africoid" fellahin to the right. Justforasecond 14:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Read the definition of the term Fellah. The people in the illustration could be from any Arab-controlled/conquered region. The photo of the Fellah girl is of an indigenous (read "black") Egyptian. deeceevoice 11:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] World history and white cannibalism in a nutshell

Until -1500 BC the negroes dominated the whole region. White people born - 20 000 years ago, were trapped in europe a long time by the Last glacial period, So while Negroe built big civilizations like Ta-Seti in nubia 10 000 years ago and later kemet and the big kushite empire. The whites lived in caves, sometimes eating their own children if there was nothing else to eat.

References: - Lenormant. - The African Origin of Civilization, Cheikh Anta Diop.

Caid--84.130.28.57 06:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

omg, I had no idea it was that bad :p dab (ᛏ) 07:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Not all the time, was it that bad, but it was bad enough. Those people have to understand something. It is impossible to come out of your cave, and then start building a civilisation like kemet. It is impossible to come out of your cave, travel back in time 2500 years and then went to africa, to build a civilization like kemet there not in europe. It is impossible to come out of your cave, and then create a writing system with animals from the savannah. It is impossible to come out of your cave, .........

Caid--84.130.28.57 08:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The Last Glacial Maximum ended about 12,000 years ago at a time when no known civilization existed. Egypt arose no earlier than the late 4th millenium BCE and any civilization south of that appeared later. The cultures of Neolithic and Mesolithic Europe weren't in caves, but were rather fairly complex and sophisticated, as exemplified by such sites as Lepenski Vir and Skara Brae, and structures like Stonehenge and Newgrange, among others. See also this article and this one. --Jugbo 04:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

But yes, white folks are known for eating their children when times get tough. In the U.S., over 3 million recorded child-eatings have occurred since the Revolutionary War. And that was before George Dubya was elected.  ;) Justforasecond 05:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

1- 12 000 Years is 10 000 BC and at this time the Nubian civilization already began. Your problem are your european-references, afrika is the cradle of Mankind.

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/NUB/NUBX/NUBX_brochure.html http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/NUB/NUBX/NUBX_fig1.html

Figure 1: The decoration of the Qustul Incense Burner, as restored. A sacrificial procession contains the earliest definite imaye of a pharaoh with his crown and falcon-label. Oriental Institute Nubian Expedition.

Nabta Playa: the oldest known astronomical alignment of megaliths in the world: http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/nabtaplaya.html

Ancient Africa's Black kingdoms: http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/ancientafrica.html

Timeline of Events in Men History

150 000 - 200 000 B.C.E Homo-Sapien-Sapien estimated origin in Afrika

40 000 B.C.E Homo-Sapien-Sapien migrated to europe, the Grimaldi Negro is contemporary to Homo-Neanderthals.

20 000 B.C.E the Grimaldi Negro mutated to White Cro-magnon,the first white is born.

10,000 B.C.E. Earliest records of African people living in highly organized society Nubia religious (spiritual orientation) Africa is not only the original home of humanity, it is the cradle of its intellect. It was on Africa's savannahs, riverbanks, highlands, deserts, and forests that the first men and women used the power of their minds to shape their environment in ways that suited them. Here man established himself as a tool maker and hunter and advanced social animal. Over the course of millions of years, groups of prehistoric Africans of the genus Homo reasoned, judged, understood, and created the basis for much of the technology and industry that exists in the world today.

10,000 - 5,000 B.C.E. Ethiopian (Kush) Impire. Glacial thaw in Europe estimated completion

6,000 - 5,000 B.C.E. The Kushite Civilization

5,000 - 4,000 B.C.E. The Ta Seti civilization Nubia and the Pharoah system of governement. The first invasions of foreigners into Kemet (Ancient Egypt)

4,240 - 3,100 B.C.E. The founding of KMT (Kemet/ ancient Egypt) 1st - 14th Dynasties Narmer Menes is responsible for the unification of Kemet during the 1st dynasty. The building of the Great pyramids during the 4th dynasty. The development of the sciences and liberal arts. During this period Imhotep the world first known genius lived.

2,000 B.C.E. Hyksos (Asians) invaded KMT 15th - 17th Dynasties

1,500 B.C.E. Africans retook control of KMT 18th - 26th Dynasties

525 B.C.E. Persians invaded KMT along with Alexander the great who raided the libraries and take African knowledge to Europe 27th - 31st Dynasties

323 B.C.E. Queen Candace. Greeks invaded KMT 32nd Dynasty Herodetus (father of European history), Sacrotes, Aristotle and others studied in Africa. They all took African higher level of knowledge back to Europe.

45 B.C.E. Romans invaded KMT 33rd Dynasty. The opening of of the university of Timbuctu.

320 C.E. KMT reign as leading world high-culture ended. Mass migrations, the first massive influx of Arabs.

500 C.E. Moors invaded Europe. Also the second massive influx of Arabs into Africa. Universities flourished all over Africa while Europe was in the dark ages.

1,400 C.E. Moorish rule of Southern Spain ended Columbus became the 1st European to reach the Americas where the most heinous system of slavery ever known to man was established.

1,500 C.E. European Slave Trade in Africa

1619 August 20. Twenty Africans arrived in Jamestown, Virginia, aboard a Dutch ship. They were the first blacks to be forcibly settled as involuntary laborers in the North American British Colonies.

..................

Resources: - Ancient Africa's Black kingdoms: http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/ancientafrica.html - African Kingdoms and Civilizations: http://www.empereur.com/Africa/history/hisking.html - THE GLOBAL AFRICAN PRESENCE: http://www.runoko.fr.st/

Caid--84.130.25.83 11:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)-

I like THE GLOBAL AFRICAN PRESENCE, makes me think of Pangaea: puts things into perspective, after all the palest, child-devouring Hyperborean is simply a Black African with a genetically transmitted melanine deficit :) dab (ᛏ) 13:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all, Caid, I should point out that you seem to have missed my primary point, which was that at the time of the ancient Egyptian civilization (one of the oldest at 3100 BCE), Europeans weren't baby-eating cave-dwellers as you claimed.

I wouldn't call your references objective if they support your claims; but I found nothing on any of those pages that spoke of any 12,000 year-old civilization (or of any that were older that Egypt or Sumer, for that matter), nor of any 1st century BCE university in the city of Timbuktu, which Wikipedia says was established by Tuareg tribes in the 10th century CE. Any universities there appeared in the 15th century, after European universities appeared in the 11th and 12th centuries, an exception being the 9th century university of Constantinople and, of course, the Academy. That "oldest known astrological alignment of megaliths [if it can be called that] in the world" is refuted by the links I posted, which describe other structures in Europe that are contemporary if not older.

As for this:

"20 000 B.C.E the Grimaldi Negro mutated to White Cro-magnon,the first white is born."

That's not how it happened. Humanity underwent many changes before that, and it's safe to assume that the modern humans that arrived in Europe from Central Asia weren't "Negroes" that suddenly underwent a dramatic change and became "Whites".

"525 B.C.E. Persians invaded KMT along with Alexander the great who raided the libraries and take African knowledge to Europe 27th - 31st Dynasties"

"323 B.C.E. Queen Candace. Greeks invaded KMT 32nd Dynasty Herodetus (father of European history), Sacrotes, Aristotle and others studied in Africa. They all took African higher level of knowledge back to Europe."

I don't suppose I should be surprised that you believe this. Those scholars studied in Alexandria, which was originally a Greek city, founded and inhabited, and as has been pointed out in professional refutations of these theories, the Library of Alexandria was established (by Greeks) "at the beginning of the 3rd century BC", after Alexander's death in 323 BCE.

"500 C.E. Moors invaded Europe."

That actually happened in 711 CE, by the Umayyad Caliphate, centered at Damascus in Syria.

"Universities flourished all over Africa while Europe was in the dark ages."

No they didn't, and the very designation of these times as "Dark Ages" is contentious, as such phenomena as the Carolingian Renaissance, the Ottonian Renaissance, the Macedonian Renaissance, and the Renaissance of the 12th century occurred.

"the most heinous system of slavery ever known to man was established."

in ancient times with the African slave trade, which continues today in Mauritania and Sudan, even though slavery was abolished by European powers by the 19th century.

Finally, this claim of "white cannibalism" (that you made earlier) is absurd to anyone who possesses common sense, Caid. These societies were agriculturalists, as well as hunter-gatherers. They didn't eat their children. Having a baby isn't like having a bowel-movement. The product isn't low-investment and disposable. It takes a lot of time, energy, and food to grow a baby and raise a child. If they were short on food, they would grow more, or hunt or gather if that wasn't feasible. The only people that I know of that have regularly practiced cannibalism (until modern times, even) are the black people of New Guinea, who produced their Kuru disease with that cultural institution of theirs. --Jugbo 18:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Before we go any further, if you can read french i will recommand the lecture of this scientific paper:

L’ADN mitochondrial, le chromosome Y et l’histoire des populations humaines: http://ist.inserm.fr/BASIS/medsci/fqmb/export/DDD/422.pdf

It's a paper about the genetic map of humankind.

- The asian-mutation is different from the european.

Besides: - The bones of the homo-sapien-sapien found in Europe between - 40000 and -20 000 are from negroes. - The bones of the homo-sapien-sapien found in Europe from -20 000 are from whites.

also read this one:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/183392.stm

- Genetic researchers say they have found fresh evidence that Chinese people are descended from Africans. ................. - Academics from the University of Texas and their colleagues in China studied 28 population groups in China and concluded that most - if not all -had their genetic origins in Africa.

Or this one:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/15/AR2005121501728.html?sub=new

Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin By Rick Weiss Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, December 16, 2005; Page A01 .................... The work also reveals for the first time that Asians owe their relatively light skin to different mutations. That means that light skin arose independently at least twice in human evolution, in each case affecting populations with the facial and other traits that today are commonly regarded as the hallmarks of Caucasian and Asian races.

Caid--84.130.24.35 19:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

---

About my chronology I'm talking about time-periode, don't link the legend too closely with the date i've mentioned, the date is the starting point.

About Alexandria, why should the greeks leave their homeland without a bibliothek, but go to a foreign land to create one ? Where did the books/documents in this library come from ?

How could somebody like aristote in a few years write alone more than 1000 Books, about mathematics, astronomy,philosophy, etc.  ?

Reference:Stolen legacy, Greek philosophy is stolen Egyptian philosophy, by George G.M. James: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0913543780/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-3093598-9224809#reader-link

About the Moors, read my contribution on the subject: Moors in european Literature http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Moors#Moors_in_european_Literature

Reference: Ibn al Khattib Al Makkary (arab-historian) published in Sevilla 1549: 1070 BC a group of moors(black african) came to spain from north-africa, the name of the leader of these early moors was "Batrikus", Eleven african dynasties reigned over Andalousia until the second wave of moors (only 20% of these new moors were arabs).

711 CE Tarik Ibn Ziad ( a berbere) conquered spain a second time, in his army were 7000 Men, only 300 were Arabs.

About the description of Yusuf ibn Tashifin, by the historian Ali Ibn Abdallah (a moor) in his book "Roudh el kartos" published 1326. « .... woolly hair ». The same Yusuf is the founder of the city of Marrakech.

Caid--84.130.20.83 21:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

---

About the genesis of kmt.

It's in Upper Egypt, from the paleolithic to the present, that material evidence has been found to attest the successive stages of the kmt civilization: - Tasian, Badarian circa 7471 BC - Amratian circa 6500 BC - Protodynastic.

Cheikh Anta Diop writes:

- According to the very short chronology, 3200 BC Egypt was unified into a kingdom under Menes. - In western Asia, nothing similar occured. Instead we find only small villages: Susa, Ur, Lagash, Mari, Sumer, attested sometimes by anonymous tombs that are dubbed "royal tombs" without any proof. Thus elevated to kingly rank are persons who were either fictious or merely village patriarchs. - No trace of man earlier than 4000 BC exists in Syria or Mesopotamia. By that date the kmts had their feet on the threshold of their history proper. - Mesopotamia was still building with sun-dried bricks made of clay that rain transformed into a mass of mud.

Georges Contenau writes about the significance of the so-called royal tombs of Ur:

In the presence of the royal sepulchers, we may wonder whether kings were really involved and whether we should not connect thes tombs with the fertility cult. As a matter of fact, what strikes us is that the occupants of these tombs are, so to speak, anonymous. M.S. Smith thinks that these tombs may contain not real kings, but actors in the sacred drama presented at festivals where the principal protagonist was sacrificed...

Besides the people in this region at this time, were also negroes. According to Strabo, Susa had been founded by a negro, Tithonus, King of Ethiopia and father of Memmon.

The man found in Canaan in prehistoric times, the Natufian, was a negroid. In the Bible, when the first white races reached the place -1500 BC, they found a black race (canaan means land of the blacks?)

Dr. Contenau recalled the opinion of Quatrefages and Hamy on the ethnic types represented on Assyrian monuments. "A problable mixture of kushite and Negro" (N.B. kushite were no more less negroes).

Houssaye's classification of the susan-population "Aryano-negroids" (N.B. something like Aryano-negroid doesn't exist, they were negroes).

Caid--84.130.37.219 20:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

---

About Timbuktu, you should read the Tarikh-es-Sudan. The University of Sankore was built in 989 Tuareg created the town for business, but tuareg are nomads, nomads don't create universities.

The first European universities were created by the moors (mostly blacks) in spain(sevilla,vicente). Caid--Caid 10:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Layout of the Article

Deeceevoice, I gave an explanation of my changes to the layout of the article already. If it's the content you object to, feel free to add and edit. Your contention that the article should be changed back to the old layout, because nobody asked for your approval is ridiculous.

I'm not trying to create a false dichotomy. The reasons I divided it into Euro and Afrocentrist sections were: [a] it provides a format to present the claims of each side without having them pile on top of each other. (as in the old Diop section) "I was trying to follow a pattern of explaining each claim, and then explaining if it's a mainstream belief, and if not, why not." I thought this gave a greater objectivity and clarity to the article. [b] Afrocentrism was a response to a eurocentrism.

In the future, it would be more than fine with me, if someone moved the content from the two claims section into the history section and put it into historical context.

Instead of simply reverting the article and making subjective statements about it as your reason, give specific examples of things you object to, propose a new layout altogether, or if it's the contents (not the layout) you object to, feel free to add to the article.Altarbo 17:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Do not misrepresent my objections, Altarbo. deeceevoice 18:17, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I've reinserted the general information about difficulties in ascertaining "race" because I thought it instructional; it informs the rest of the article. I also have reinserted much of the highly relevant information hacked out of the new "draft." More to come. deeceevoice 19:57, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Why do you keep trying to take things out of historical context?Altarbo 19:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

As in? deeceevoice 06:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Further, the renaming to "craniometry," the lead language and hacking up of the section on forensics/faciocranial examination are all blatantly POV. If someone wishes to refute information therein (and the information which will be restored), they can do so under the Eurocentric section. I'll address that later when I have more time. deeceevoice 06:22, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

1. You deleted the history of modern racism parts of the article, because they were "off point" and have treated race as a real absolute thing. This is POV.

2. You deleted sourced, relevant iformation explaining that Diop's finding are not widely accepted and why. This is POV.

3. You added in a misleading section, that does nothing more than make people think that craniometry shows King Tut was "negroid" (again treating "negroid" the same way you treated race) when the most recent widely accepted study found that he had caucasoid and negroid traits and classified him as a North African. This is POV.

4. And most importantly your organization of the article has nothing to with chronolgy or reality. The very fact the article starts off with "Obstacles in Ascertaining Race" is POV.

I realize that a lot of stuff in the my revision of the article was also POV, but my goal was not create the ultimate-never-again-needing-to-be-edited article, but a template to put the "controversy over racial characteristics of ancient egyptians" in objective, verifiable, historical perspective.Altarbo 18:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I really should read the talk page more thoroughly. I'm just now seeing this response. I restored the "obstacles in ascertaining race" section, because --and I didn't write the original version; a white contributor did, but I did clean it up considerably (at one time, anyway), excising/redacting much of the disinformation and POV. I thought it useful in providing an NPOV framework to partisan arguments to follow. Further, I deleted the contrarian viewpoint in the Afrocentric section, because initially I thought each section (Eurocentrism, Afrocentrism) existed to explicate those respective viewpoints and viewed the contrarian viewpoint as misplaced. The section I added about cranial analysis was accurate and on point. And, yes. It represented Tut as a black African because that is, in fact, what he was. And news flash: While in the common imagination, North Africans are light-skinned, Semitic/Arab peoples, this is a misconception born of ignorance and white supremacist lies. "North African" and "black" are not mutually exclusive terms. Tut was a Nilotic (North African) blackman, as opposed to an equatorial one. And you, in fact, completely gutted the article without discussion, deleting whole, great chunks of useful, properly sourced information -- completely without explanation or justification -- as well as virtually every, single image that even remotely resembled a black person. And you charge me with POV! That's funny. So much for your purported "goal." deeceevoice 07:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To do

• To be included later in the Afrocentrist (of course) section, a subsection on skeletal remains, including the (now excised) info by Houston re Petrie and the Badarian skulls; editing and also reinsertion of deletion info under "ethnographic murals." deeceevoice 07:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• Mention that Frank Domingo doesn't believe pharoah Khafre was "negroid" Justforasecond 18:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] citations

all statements with the citations needed note on them will be deleted in three days if citations/refrences are not given -ishmaelblues

i'm not joking cite them -ishmaelblues

You can sign by typing ~~~~ (four tildes) at the end of your comments, Ishmaelblues (5 if you just want to put the time with no name, 3 for your name and no time). I definitely can provide citations for the "dolichocephalic" and craniofacial statements, so please give me a little time for that. I'll look into the others. I deleted one citation needed regarding whether or not certain ancient author who called the AE's hair "wooly" were from the Near East and Europe (Herodotus was of course European). — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 02:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

otay -ishmaelblues

[edit] Two Articles

What is everyone's opinion on the structure of the article. Deeceevoice, Ishmaelblues, and others seem to favor an article that marginalizes the history of the contraversy. I don't. Would anyone object to having one article that deals with the controversy and a separate one that deals with the actual question of "what race were the ancient egyptians?" This article could have link early on, to the second article. Here's a rough draft, of what the template could look like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_of_the_Ancient_Egyptians/DraftAltarbo 00:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I would object, because the latter article would be a violation of WP:OR. This article should deal with the historical controversy up to the present day and not take sides. I don't object to an article on the Origins of the Ancient Egyptians incorporating info from Brace, Keita, and the like with regards to pre-dynastic population movements and remains from this period, as well as dealing with population influxes (e.g. Sea Peoples, Hyksos). — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 01:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

there is no "actual question", since even the question doesn't hold any water. The "controversy" is really all there is to this. This article shouldn't "take sides", of course, it should simply point out what "side" is taken by academia, as everywhere else on Wikipedia. The answer is that this is not a topic of Egyptology, but of Pan-Africanism, and hence a subject of political propaganda, and possibly of US sociology. There is no actual acedemic debate about the "race of Ancient Egytpians". Or at least the article doesn't succeeed in showing that there is. dab (ᛏ) 18:14, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I guess the question should be, "Does anyone have any objections to the way the article is currently organized?"Altarbo 19:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. I don't get it. Why were the information and pics I tried to include under "Afrocentrism" deleted wholesale? Further, why is there so little under the Eurocentrist argument -- but then Eurocentrist counterarguments are presented under Afrocentrism? I thought the division was to allow for the presentation of evidence supporting each side. And who the hell decided on the all the very un-black-looking artwork/illusrations to the exclusion of virtually all others? Finally, I thought the language detailing the "difficulties in ascertaining race" was helpful -- yet it, too, was deleted. Again.deeceevoice 23:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I tried to move most of the material from the Eurocentrist section into the history part. The reason I didn't delete everything, and start over (which is what I orginally suggested) is that I thought a lot of the material in the article was interesting/sourced/relevant/well-written, so instead of deleting it, I tried to simply put it in more objective terms. From an earlier comment, "I tried to split the controversial eurocentrist and afrocentrist claims into two sections. With the subsections I was trying to follow a pattern of explaining each claim, and then explaining if it's a mainstream belief, and if not, why not." The only section that is undisputed, and clearly mainstream was the culture section, so they all have something following them (counterclaims) explaining why they're not mainstream. It was sort of a band-aid solution, to stop the edit warring.

Ultimately I think that this article should be 80-90% history. It should detail the origins, development, and current state of eurocentrism, afrocentrism, and mainstream egyptology. For example, instead of having a section explaining Diop's study and whether it was right or wrong; there should be a section explaining what Diop did, and the response to what Diop did.

Deeceevoice, sorry if I'm mistaken or if this sounds rude; but you're edits to the article seem to be with the intent of making something that people will read and think, "Hey those Egpytians were black." That's unverifiable propaganda.

If you have any other questions, I'll try to answer them. But I'll probably be spending less time on Wikipedia in general now that school is starting.Altarbo 21:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

No, your post doesn't sound rude; it sounds simply ill-informed/wrong-headed. I thought the purpose of dividing the article into two, separate sections (the Eurocentric view and the Afrocentric view) was to allow the full presentation of evidence/arguments supporting each side, each in its place. There is/was virtually nothing under the Eurocentrist section -- but that's not my problem/interest. My interest was/is to state the Afrocentrist view -- and with supporting evidence, documentation. It was not "unverifiable propaganda." I provided quotes and sources. So, exactly what's the problem with the information I included -- and which you did a hack job on, completely deleting most of it, along with the photos of black African-looking artifacts? And if I included "unverifiable propaganda," I'd like to know precisely what passages those were. And be specific. deeceevoice 15:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't care about the arguments being split into two sections or one. My problem with your edits was that you deleted all the information on the history of the debate. Here is your edit where you say the "structure of article has not changed": http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Controversy_over_racial_characteristics_of_Ancient_Egyptians&oldid=69546216

Here is my last edit before I stopped working on this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Controversy_over_racial_characteristics_of_Ancient_Egyptians&oldid=70381722

My problem (which I've stated over and over) is that you have structured the article as if to prove that the Egyptians were black, not that you did a bad job. It's like making an article about whether the ancient egyptians were Muslims or Christians. It doesn't matter how well you can argue that the ancient egyptians were more like muslims, because there was no islam in ancient egypt. This article should be about the controversy itself, or it should be deleted.Altarbo 20:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

WHAT?!! Who on earth said anything about ancient Egyptians and Islam, or them being Muslim in any way? If you're trying to make a point utilizing some weird, incoherent (to me, at least) analogy, then, please, dispense with the figurative language and talk specifics. Because the whole Muslim-Christian thing is lost on me. deeceevoice 16:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I did no such thing. The article developed the way the article developed, with a number of editors contributing. Further, your restructuring of the article, as others have commented herein, creates a false dichotomy. And not only that, you excised whole portions of text which were relevant and adequately sourced -- without any justification whatsoever. Further, you deleted virtually all the photos of dark-skinned Egyptians. And many of your edits were blatantly POV. I reinserted the section on problems in ascertaining race without changing your restructuring (though I disagree with it), because it provided context and perspective -- something subsequent editors have tried to restore with some of the text in the Decentrist section. The next time you think to accuse me of inserting "unverifiable propaganda" into an article, perhaps you should think again. deeceevoice 21:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

"Further, your restructuring of the article, as others have commented herein, creates a false dichotomy."

"I don't care about the arguments being split into two sections or one. My problem with your edits was that you deleted all the information on the history of the debate." "Ultimately I think that this article should be 80-90% history. It should detail the origins, development, and current state of eurocentrism, afrocentrism, and mainstream egyptology. For example, instead of having a section explaining Diop's study and whether it was right or wrong; there should be a section explaining what Diop did, and the response to what Diop did."

"I reinserted the section on problems in ascertaining race without changing your restructuring (though I disagree with it),"

Mine:

1 History

1.1 Precursors

1.2 Scientific Racism

1.2.1 Origins

1.2.2 Red Men

1.3 African Response

1.3.1 Pan-Africanism

1.3.2 Ethiopianism

1.3.3 Rastafari Movement

. . .

Yours:

1 Obstacles in ascertaining race

1.1 Skin color

1.2 Condition and availability of remains

1.3 Geography and linguistics

1.4 Art

1.5 Politics

1.6 Scientific Racism

1.7 Afrocentrism

"And not only that, you excised whole portions of text which were relevant and adequately sourced"

If I really did, then put them back in.Altarbo 01:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

And I'm just now seeing this. I've already addressed much of this above -- but first let me disabuse you of the notion that the article in its previous state -- before you did the hack job -- was mine ("yours"). I don't own this article. And -- surprise -- I didn't structure it. I didn't even write the first draft of the "obstacles in ascertaining race" section -- because, quite frankly, I think it's quite easy to determine that dynastic Egypt was first, fundamentally and predominantly a black African civilization. When I first came to the section, it was a thinly veiled apologetic for the (now that the "Egypt was white/Semitic" lie has been utterly discredited in modern, informed circles), "Ah, well, we can't, um, ah, really say with any degree of certainty what the ancient Egyptians were." At least in its last permutation, it made sense and was relatively balanced; it provided a middle ground between the two polar opposites -- that false dichotomy which you created and then removed virtually all the information that elucidated and illuminated the issue.

And, no. The "majority of legitimate scholars" don't think the whole dispute is "ridiculous." And, frankly, even if they did, I wouldn't care one whit. The "majority of legitmate (read 'mainstream', white, Eurocentrist) scholars" are the ones responsible for this debate in the first place. They are the ones who pronounced black people inferior, savage, subhuman, uncivilized. They are the ones who tried to claim Egypt and Timbuktu as their own. They are the ones who, over the ages, rewrote human history in an attempt to obliterate the black imprint in Egypt, touting the greatness of the white race above all others. And now that their artifices, their lies are being exposed -- and the black presence and influence in Egypt have been accepted by many mainstream white historians to a degree that has opened the door for mainstream acceptance of much of "Afrocentrist" scholarship, and the study of the Afrocentrist paradigm in established, mainstream universities, these lie mongers and fakes have resorted to mealy-mouthed b.s., diddling with terminology that presumes to appropriate the black identity of peoples, calling them "Caucasoid" in a last-ditch effort to hold on to their worn, tattered white supremacist lies. The very idea that someone would suggest that some blacks of the region are somehow not black because a branch of their ancestors migrated out of Africa, giving rise to a mutated branch of humanity later termed "Caucasians" -- and then name that small portion of the root "race" after that descendant branch of humanity which is named after European geography is not only absurd, but sheer historical and anthropological blasphemy.

And guess what? Just as the old, white supremacist lies about black people have fallen away, so, too, will the new lies, the new subterfuges. They are already crumbling. That's what real scholarship will do for ya. When the white-owned Discovery Channel airs programming -- documentaries -- on ancient Egypt and Nubia/Kush on the "black kingdoms," complete with Egyptians in huge afro wigs, a black Tut and a black Nefratiti, then it's time to read the writing on the wall: "White supremacists, your time is up." The clock is ticking.... deeceevoice 07:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Doing this would make this the most POV set of articles I could possibly think of. Afrocentrism concerning Egypt is dealt with in Afrocentrism itself, so that article would be redundant and invariably merged, and that would leave only the other artical which would probably be terrifically erronious. Dividing this between the two majority theses whatsoever is inherently pov, especially because the majority of legitimate scholars think the whole dispute is ridiculous. Thanatosimii 01:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this article is an offshoot of a lot of information originally presented in Afrocentrism. I haven't visited the article in quite a while, but it was decided back then it was wisest to simply make this a separate article and deal with the Afrocentrist paradigm as just that, as an approach/overarching framework for the study of history, rather than focus on one, narrow subject studied by some Afrocentrist historians. Much of the information excised from there about King Tut made its way here --and that information has now been deleted. I guess the next stop, after we take care of this article, is Tutankhamen. Yep. That's a great place to put all that lovely, bulleted info I presented above. You know -- all that stuff that points to his blackness.  :p And I note you've provided no examples of "unverifiable propagadanda." deeceevoice 07:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

The vast majority I would say. Chiwara 00:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good job, only use "white" looking Egyptian sculptures

Good job. Keep up the good work. Don't let the readers see all those black sculptures. Oh did-ums. I got direct permission in writing from thefreemaninstitute.org to use any pictures they wish. Oh i guess we're gonna see a lot of black egyptians in this article. boo hoo. chumps. --Zaphnathpaaneah 18:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

oddment, blubber. tweak. dab (ᛏ) 18:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The Freeman Institute... As if that is a reliable source. Freeman is one of a few white "Afrocentrists", in the name of equality he must profess the ancient Egyptians were black. Why don't you reference an actual unbiased Egyptologists who studies ancient Egypt for reasons other than politics.

[edit] Egyptians were probably of North African/Middle Eastern descent

Which in anthropology terms mean they were Caucasian. Most modern day North Africans are classified as Caucasian as they share simmilar skull and skeleton structures as caucasians spread across Europe, Western and most southern Asia. Im not saying they were white, they could very well and probably did have darker skins then whites, but in terms of anthropology they were Caucasians which can be seen by numerous Anthropology studies done on modern day North Africans. Even today, north Africa is still dominated by non blacks.

Also, another very credible source would be the show done by Natural geographic on the uncovering of King Tutankhamen's tomb. Nat. Geo. actually did a full CT scan of the body, and with the 3d mapping, it was determined King Tut was of Caucasian origin, much simmilar to North Africans present today.

Once again, Im not saying Ancient Egyptians were black, they probably had comparitevly darker skins to whites, but in strict scientific terms, they were Caucasian, with skull, skeleteon and hair etc. features akin to modern day Caucasians spread across Europe, North Africa, middle East, Western and Southern Asia. - Cranberryjuice10

Keep in mind that according to the above classifications, Ethiopians and other Horn Africans are classified as "Caucasoid" (by your definition "Caucasian"), and that Egyptian limb proportions are described as "super-negroid," (i.e. long limb to body ratios), as are modern East Africans. Moreover, the ancestry of modern Northern Africa is diverse. Paternally, they are almost all derived (in the Maghreb, outside of Egypt) from E3b lineages, which are East African (most likely Somali) in origin (e.g. Moroccan Arabs: ~75% paternally, Moroccan Berbers: ~85+% paternally). It's only in maternal genetics that populations seem to differ. Some have West African lineages, others East African, and some even European maternal lineages (e.g. common among the Kabyle). There's no plain "North African" type. You also have to consider the large amount of foreign ancestry that the Egyptian population has been receiving since the 2nd Millenium BC, with the Hyksos, Sea Peoples, Persian rule (preceded by Nubian rule), a long Greek Rule, Roman Rule, and then Arab rule (during which Arab tribes were often settled in Egypt), and Ottoman rule before the modern era. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 07:25, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Cranberryjuice, you're simply flat-out wrong/misled. Yom knows what he's talking about. The term "North Africans" to most ill-informed people brings to mind Semitic types -- Arabs -- when the oldest indigenous peoples of Northeast Africa are all black Africans. I doubt seriously you've done any reading at all on the subject. From the looks of your post, you're simply going on the usual, wrong-headed, pop-culture misconceptions and presumptions. deeceevoice 15:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

--Ok then how do you explain when Nat. Geo did a CT scan of King Tut, who was was without a doubt one of them most famous Egyptian Kings, his body structure was found to be Caucasian.

--And also i do not consider "Ethipoans" Caucasian. North Africa is Morrocco, Libya, Algeria and Egypt not Ehtipioa. And just look at many North Africans today, they all have very Caucasian features such a fine nose, and un-pronounced brow region. And also, i actually know a person, who is of Morrocan descent, and the last person he looks like is Sub-Aharan African, he has brown hair and green eyes. Either way, Ancient Egyptians were defintely not of negroid orign, but rather Caucasoid.

A high class compaq presario computer: $1200.

A wireless avana internet card: $50. Membership on wikipedia: free. The laugh you get when you see a fellow wikipedian engage in conversation on a subject they have no experience or credentials in against somebody who actually does and get OWNED: fucking priceless. Sure, Carlin and Pryor will make you crack you up, but if you really want to bust a nut laughing go see Eurocentrists on wikipedia. Peace. Teth22 22:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"How do you explain when Nat. Go did a CT scan...?" See my comments above under "Everyone Hates Zahi Hawass." I explain point by point how Tut could not possibly be anything other than a Nilotic, black African pharaoh. deeceevoice 02:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yea deecee, Im sure your a more credible source then National Geographic - CranberryJuice10

Um, babe, Nat'l Geographic didn't do the CT scans on Tut, and Zahi Hawass LIED to Nat'l Geographic about Tut's classification, Susan Anton as my girl Deecevoice has showed a million times, said that his crania, in terms of non-metric measurements showed almost ZERO affinities with Europeans, (READ Caucasoid) and grouped consistently with Africans, now that's what she said in the e-mail she sent to Deecevoice. When she was in PUBLIC, when Zahi Hawass was sticking his SS foot up her ass, she said that his cranial cavity was shaped like "an African" but his nose was "European", in spite of many Nilotic groups having narrow noses. Which one do you trust? Peace. Teth22 15:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Susan Anton emailed me and said as far as she knew Hawass didn't lie.

Justforasecond 20:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Hawass didn't lie about what? What did Susan Anton say in your e-mail versus Deeceovoice's? Get back to me. Peace. Teth22 22:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

teth dont call me a babe. You are just in a state of denial. Nat. Geo. is more reliable then some inference's you and other blacks came up with. Nat. Geo, has been and is one of the most credible sources out there. -Cranberryjuice10

I'm not a state of denial, you're in a state of ignorance. A forensic anthropologist (Susan Anton) is far more reliable than a magazine, and once again, she said that king tut's cranial cavity was shaped like an African *gasp*, see the objective American reconstruction of king tut and see if it looks "Caucasoid". P.S., when I call you or anyone else "babe", it's not a hit-on, it's a Dennis Miller type thing. Peace cha-chi. Teth22 22:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

NG is hardly a scholarly publication; it's a mass-market mag. The point-by-point information I've cited is a result of the observations of specialists and scholars and widely accepted information/fact -- nothing more. If NG is your primary source of information regarding this matter, then it appears my assessment of the depth (or, more accurately, lack thereof) of your research/knowledge on the subject is completely on target. I don't mean to be insulting/patronizing, but you should read more -- and more scholarly/reliable sources at that. Even The Discovery Channel and PBS ( also purveryors of mass-market info/images) repeatedly have acknowledged in severa documentaries the blackness of the ancient Egyptians, including a clearly black African reconstruction of Tut, huge Afro wigs, an examination of the black pharaohs, etc. The Giza Sphinx does not look like the whitewashed reconstructions disseminated into the pop culture imagination. Compare, for example, the Luxor Vegas Sphinx with the real deal. Do you think it's an accident that the features have been deliberately Europeanized? Time to open your mind and get in step. The work of serious scholars about the blackness of dynastic Egypt has been available for decades. It's hardly new. When my ignorant elementary schoolteacher tried to tell me the Egyptians weren't "Negroes," I knew better then -- and that was more than 40 years ago. FYI, there is a world of real knowledge beyond the usual pop culture pap served up for the everyday consumption of people with borderline-average IQs and third-grade reading comprehension. It should be a clue to the truth when even media outlets such as Discovery finally catch on. Lastly, I knew NG's spokesperson Terry Garcia back when he was working for a liberal think-tank in DC, and he's about as qualified to comment on the race/skin color of Tut as an illiterate Indian mahout. deeceevoice 11:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

"he's about as qualified to comment on the race/skin color of Tut as an illiterate Indian mahout." (deeceevoice)

Can we please have an discussion without this kind of insulting comments? (just imagine someone would tell you that "xy is as qualified to comment as an illiterate black truck driver"). Thanks. CoYep 17:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

"Susan Anton as my girl Deecevoice has showed a million times, said that his crania, in terms of non-metric measurements showed almost ZERO affinities with Europeans, (READ Caucasoid)." (User:Teth22 15:40, 21 August 2006)

Unfortunately, whatever kind of emails "your girl Deeceevoice" claims to receive or whatever kind of "elementary" school knowledge [54] she believes to have is absolutely irrevelant unless she can provide reliable sources to back it up. Please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability. Thanks.

Washington Post: "Anton, in a telephone interview, described the specimen as "somewhat equivocal." The decidedly masculine jaw was the giveaway, she said, although the rounded forehead, the sharp brow and the prominent eyes suggested a woman. Age was easy, she said. The third molars were in the process of coming in, something that happens between the ages of 18 and 20. Race was "the hardest call." The shape of the cranial cavity indicated an African, while the nose opening suggested narrow nostrils — a European characteristic." [55]

The Guardian: A second team led by Susan Anton of New York University, looked only at the CT data, and identified a male aged 18 to 19, of North African type with Caucasoid affinities [56]

Science Daily: "Working “blind,” Susan Antón, associate professor of anthropology at New York University, in consultation with Bradley Adams of the chief Medical Examiner’s office, studied the CT data. She quickly described the mystery person as male, age 18 to 19 years, and of African ancestry with several Caucasian affinities, possibly of north African origin — all uncannily accurate." [57]

Also, here is what Anton said about the "cranial" characteristics (elongated cranium, receding chin) DCV declared to be "clearly negroid":

National Geographic: At first glance Antón noted that the unusual-looking skull could have been that of a female—an observation also later made by Yale University's Anderson. Tut's skull exhibited several characteristics more commonly found on females: a cranium that is elongated toward the back, a receding chin, and an almost nonexistant browridge (the bony ridge under the eyebrows).[58]CoYep 17:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

"he's about as qualified to comment on the race/skin color of Tut as an illiterate Indian mahout." (deeceevoice) Wow the irony here is appaling. Im assuming your black, and you resorted to racial insults to "prove" your point. What if I said, all the things you said are as uninformed as black gang banger murder/rapist/robber/fried chicken eating watermelon munching/leaf underwear wearing/havent heard of clothes yet ......

And you say NG isnt scholarly, and your "sources" are. NGS has been around for a very long time,and have the resources to hire very qualified proffesionals. Deecee, Ill say again, your in a state of denial. King Tut was most definetly of Caucasian origin. --Cranberryjuice10 19:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

"Caucasoid" as in a Nilotic black with a narrow nasal index -- a black African. deeceevoice 19:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

So deecee your saying all Europeans and people of European orgins are "Nilotic blacks with narrow nasal index". Sorry dont buy it. Also Im sure a racist as yourself is very qualified in anthropology. There have been many sources posted about King Tut's origin as a caucasoid. Ill say again as I've said before, you are in a state of denial. --Cranberryjuice10 20:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Caucasoid != white. North Africans are craniofacially no different from Horn Africans. Also, CoYep, note that DCV never claimed to have received an email, that was JFAS. All of this discussion is inconsequential, however. Talk pages are not forums, but to be used to discuss the progression of the article. (P.S. I think I may have forgotten to have apologized for the issue with sockpuppets, so let this be my apology - sorry about that) — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 20:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

"Also, CoYep, note that DCV never claimed to have received an email, that was JFAS" (Yom) Here is her edit:

"I traded several e-mails w/Anton and would be more than happy to forward anyone a copy of the e-mail in which she flatly denied ever having used the term "Caucasoid" to describe Tut." User:Deeceevoice, 09:28, 6 July 2006 [59]

And the apology is of course accepted - It was already forgotten and forgiven - don't worry about it ! :-) CoYep 21:07, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Whatever, you blacks can think what you want, it doesnt change the fact Ancient Egyptians were caucasians. And i call BS on that North Africans are the same as Ethipoians. I havent seen any Ethipions with light hair and light colored eyes. Most ethiopians I have seen have wide nasal passages, and wooly, sheepish, nappy hair. And Ill take hair as an example, Most north Africans have the same hair profile which is found in caucasian all over the world, including Europe. Ill give you an example of a person with North African ancestry(Algerian), Zidane. You people are in a state of denial trying to claim something thats not yours as your own. --Cranberryjuice10 22:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say that Ethiopians and North AFricans are the same. I'm talking craniofacially (i.e. the shape of the head and nose, ignoring skin color, hair, and other things that cannot be determined in mummies). You obviously have not been to Ethiopia if you believe that most ethiopians have "wide nasal passages, and wolly, sheepish, nappy hair." Most Ethiopians and Eritreans (i.e. ignoring most Omotic speakers and Nilotic speakers in the countries) have straight noses, orthoganous profiles, and curly, but generally not nappy, hair. I'm not trying to claim Egypt for my own, by the way. Egyptian history is Egyptian, not Libyan, Saudi Arabian, European, or South African, but at the same time it's the world's heritage as well.

@CoYep: I didn't see that. I just remembered that JFAS keeps talking about an email from Susan Anton, too. Either way, this whole discussion is moot as the talk page is not for discussing the issue but for improving the article. Can we please get back on topic? I for one, believe that the historical perspective that was recently taken is the best way to procede. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 23:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I have a suggestion for improving this page, my suggestion for improving this page, is too delete this whole article, because there is considerable evidence pointing that Ancient Egyptians were of Caucasian orgin and NOT negroid. --Cranberryjuice10 02:12, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Then cite it and say "such and such has argued because of such and such that they might be." for pity sake, in the study of history , nothing is certain, only potentially evidenced. I have a great feeling that ill will in this page totally revolves around the fact that both sides are calling their thesis "fact," and the other, "propoganda" Thanatosimii 23:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

1: Race is not a scientific concept, therefore it's impossible to prove what "race" Egyptians were. 2: It was already agreed that this article should give only an overview about the history, concepts and the people involved in this controversy and shouldn't attempt to prove one side or the other. Nor should it be a lengthy declaration about whatever findings/facts/claims some editors believe to have to support their POV. My suggestion: we should set up this version for speedy delete and should concentrate on/use our energies to complete the draft by Jottce Talk:Controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians/Draft CoYep 23:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the idea that we should work on that draft. I hadn't seen it before, but I think that it has the makings of a very fair and balanced overview of the issue. I have access to some of the arguements by Petrie and Derry which I could use to present the rise and fall of the Dynastic Race Theory, which seems quite relavent in the history of this dispute. Thanatosimii 00:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fix race intro

"==Obstacles in ascertaining race==" is currently a subsection right after the meat of the article. Improper formatting, if we need this it should be integrated into the start of the article or somewhere else, properly. 12.215.36.208 19:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Precicely how did it come to be that all anti-afrocentric arguements are automatically called placed in the category "euro-centric"? Has it not occurred to anyone that this page is unbalanced per se because it inherently accuses all facts of being biased? Thanatosimii 23:50, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Flase Dichotomy?

Isn't the entire discussion in this article a little flawed? 2,000 years after the last native ruler of Ancient Egypt died, we are arguing about the racial makeup of their country. Since race was not important in Egypt, and nationality seemed to be the only personal characteristic of any importance, it seems reasonable to assume that, given Egypt's geographical location at the meeting point of so many ethnicities - east African, north African, Arabian, Semitic, etc. - that Egypt would have had a pluralistic raical distribution. If this is true, and all of the anthropologists, Egyptologists, and Art Historians (oh which I am one) I've spoken to recently seem to agree that it is, then this argument is essentially trying to decide if American culture is dominated by "brown-eyed people" or "non-brown-eyed people". Not only is the distinction unimportant in American society, the distribution of such peoples is roughly 50/50. Chiwara 15:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

That would seem to be the consensus. The arguement (generally, not specifically here) that a segment of afrocentrists gives is that you have two choices, the Egyptians were sweedish or they were nigerian.(I actually read an article saying about that two days back) Which is why scholars don't take afrocentrism seriously. Thanatosimii 19:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Blacks have a skewed perception as to what caucasian is and what constitutes the caucasian race. Like the person above me has said, afrocentrists only give you 2 options as to the Egyptian people'es race, either blue-eyed blondes, or full blown sub-saharan africans. The fact is, caucasians arent just limited to Europe, but are also spread out in North Africa, western and most of Southern Asia. Not all of them have fair skin, or light colored hair/eyes, but in terms of anthropolgy, they are calssified as caucasians due to the same skull/skeleton features which are shared by other caucasians. And i'm not denying sub-saharan african influence in ancient Egyptian culture, but it was very limtied. All reputable sources who have done studies on ancient egyptains racial calssification have found them to be caucasian, other then an odd few who were of sub-saharan african orgin. --Cranberryjuice10 23:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Wrong, juice. We write of North African blacks: Nilotic, Cushitic, Oromo, Nilo-Saharan, Khoisan peoples -- all black African peoples, all of whom were present in dynastic Egypt: Egyptians, Nubians, Sudanese. Do you have any notion at all as to the phenotypical and physical diversity of the indigenous peoples of the region? You should do some investigation into the diversity among the Ethiopian population alone. And the Nubians. They go from slender noses and straight hair (what has erroneously been described as "Caucasoid" -- not "Caucasian" -- there's a big difference) to broad noses and nappy hair, from average stature to gracile (tall, slender -- Nilotic/Nilo-Saharan like the Tutmosid line). The cultural and physical affinities are clear -- from Tut's enlarged incisors and red-brown skin[60],[61],[62][63],[64],[65] , markedly dolichocephalic heads, full lips, alveolar prognathism, receding chin line, gracile stature (think Dinka, Tutsi, Karo, etc.),[66],[67],[68] to their religion, to their hairstyles[69],[70],[71],[72]. Furthermore, it is pretty useless to debate the issue here. Most people have made up their own minds -- yes? I suggest you do your "talking" in the article, 'cause, gee, the "Eurocentric" section is lookin' pretty slim. :p deeceevoice 11:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Deeceevoice, you've just proven the dissenting point better than your detractors ever have. The mere fact that all dissenting arguements are labeled "eurocentric" goes to show that you believe it's either afrocentrism or eurocentrism (which is a pretty stupid theory which noone of any note has held pretty much at any time whatsoever). When people make the argument that they look like they themselves represented themselves, you retort with pictures the more african and darker skinned variaty as if that proves somthing. It doesn't, because noone argues that they don't have strong african roots and affinities. The dissenting arguement says only that they were a mixed bag. To prove the Afrocentrist point you cannot argue that some of them look black, but that all of them look non-black, because the dissenting arguement won't be ruined by showing a significant size sampling of what it expects to be there regardless. Then you make arguements about the race of certain people like Tut, Akhenaten, and even Tiy, as if their african traits are proof of your claim, however you then fail to notice that they both contain extensive amounts of foreign blood in them, specifically through the personage of Yuya, Making Tut and Akhenaten both at least one fourth Mitannian, and Tiy, whom a significant number of Afrocentrists have taken to calling a "black beauty" is half Mitannian. Now, Cranberryjuice10, you're not making this any easier either. By calling the egyptians caucasian you're falling into the self same false dichotomy. All of this just goes to show that there cannot be a neutral version of this page with the evidence being forced to fall under two poorly named headings. Thanatosimii 14:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It proves that the article sux as it is currently structured. I never agreed to it. And your criticism cuts both ways, Thanatosimii. All evidence that argues for a black African presence in Egypt is labeled "Afrocentric," when scholars like Petrie, the Father of Egyptology; Martin Bernal, another white guy; and others who do not fit the Afrocentrist mold would argee with certain of the points presented herein. No one I'm aware of is arguing that dynastic Egypt was entirely black. What Afrocentrists posit, however, is that dynastic Egypt was first, fundamentally and primarily a black, African civilization, and that it retained that essential identity through the millennia. deeceevoice 03:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as how nobody really objected to what I said, I am safely assuming no one would object if I placed such a section in the actual article. Expect it within the next few days. Chiwara 13:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you could save yourself some time and reinsert some of the passages that Altarbo stripped wholesale from the original piece. The fact is even Afrocentrists acknowledge that dynastic Egypt contained peoples of different ethnicities. What is in question is the degree to which non-indigenous Africans were present there, and when. deeceevoice 13:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Im really tired of all these 'pseudo-scientific" arguments afro-centrists are showing here about Ancient Egyptians. There have been countless studies by major, reputable scientific sources that show that most Ancient Egyptians were not negroid. Now, like I said before, I am not denying some sub-saharan African influence in Acnient Egypt, but it was miniscule. All afrocentrists throw all the inference's and finding by major, and reputable sources claiming that they, on purpose are out to destroy black contributuions in history(not just in Ancient Egypt, but also other things too). I've , in my life, never seen such big conspiracy theorists as afro-centrist people. Talking to these people is like arguing with a wall. You know, after reading all this, and other afro-centrist claims, I think there is a reason as to why Europeans are the most advanced people in the world, and why sub-saharan africans are still frozen in time. Think of this me being as a racist, I dont care. All the arguments that afro-centrists have provided only further exemplify this. --Cranberryjuice10 19:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, if you have anything substantive to offer, put it in the article and stop grousing. Be constructive. Do/Write something! deeceevoice 03:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To do

Hair:

• include info on other analyses of hair.
• include info on Nubian (or "enveloping"/afro) wigs and commonality of hairstyles throughout Africa: braids, cornrows, dreadlocks. Get photos. deeceevoice 10:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
• restore information hacked out of "Craniometry," and relocate current info to Eurocentrism section. deeceevoice 20:33, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

You go do that deecee --Cranberryjuice10 19:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Rather than presuming to "tell" me what to do, juice, why not spend your time doing something constructive, like contributing some useful information to the Eurocentrist side -- if you can? deeceevoice 20:33, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Section: De-Centrism

I've added a small section on "De-Cetrist" claims, an attempt to find a common ground in the argument as well as critique the discourse altogether. Take a look and make comments as necessary. I will try to add more information as I sort through my books. Chiwara 17:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I am curious, do you consider, "De-Centrist" to mean arguments against the notion that their race should not be focused on at all, or just the position that disagrees with the two centrist arguements. For instance, would a study on the shape of skeletal remains which finds that it is impossible to classify egyptian remains into any established racial groups, european, african, or middle eastern, belong in the de-centrist subsection or somewhere else? I figure if Redford think's its still authoritative, it ought to go somewhere. Thanatosimii 22:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I use "De-Centrist" in that I am arguing against the notion of a geographic "center". So to answer your question, I would say that an inability to "classify" skeletal remains would fall under de-centrist arguments, though most of what I talk about is a critique of the way the Eurocentrist/Afrocentrist discourse is constructed, not really an analysis of any statistical data. Yet.

This is why I have a problem with the structure of the article as proposed by Altarbo. Contrary to your assertion, I never agreed to it. After the change, I went back, dug up the old text devoted to the difficulty in ascertaining race and inserted it at the beginning of the article, because I thought it provided context and perspective. Again, Altarbo (or someone else) deleted it wholesale. The information you refer to, Thanatosimii, may be appropriate there. deeceevoice 22:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been interested in this page for some time now, and I wanted to join the effort to mae the page relevant, accurate and informative. I have big problems with this passage from the page:

"Furthermore, a fight to "claim" ancient Egyptian culture on the part of Afrocentrists can be viewed as a concession to the Eurocentrist claim that Africa containts no civilizations, cultures, or cultural products of which the continent can be proud. A better approach, argues Oguibe[21], is to focus on the incredible ethnic and cultural diversity within Africa as a source of pride, rather than fighting to claim "outsider" civilizations as having some sort of primal "African" cultural or biological basis."

I'm not familiar at all with Oguibe, and perhaps someone more knowledgeable such as Deecee or CoYep can illuminate this issue, but when talking about the continent of Africa, how the heck is Egypt considered an "outsider" civilization that afrocentric people are trying to claim? Last time (and every time in fact) I looked at a map, Egypt was located on the continent of Africa. It sounds to me like this Oguibe, whoever he is, is guilty of the logical fallacy of begging the question. I'm bringing this up on the talk page as opposed to simply editing the page because I do understand that the passage in question is representing the views of a person who espouses the "de-centrist" viewpoint. I just can't help but wonder if giving any space to a view that cosigns the old ridiculous, hackneyed western view hat Egypt is part of the middle-east, not Africa, is damaging to the possibility of this article being taken seriously.Pihanki 21:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent changes

There were some recent massive changes by an unidentified user to this page. Although much was added and much was removed legitimatly, two paragraphs were blanked in my estimation which ought not to have been blanked. Reverting would have removed the good with the bad, so I reintroduced those two which were cited. If somthing still seems missing to anyone, please reintroduce it to the current page and do not revert. Thanatosimii 19:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The edits are all perfectly legitmate. This article is supposed to be about presenting both sides of the debate, not turn into an afro-centric tract. There's been a recent mass vandalism of the other side completely.207.195.254.141 20:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

From what I can see both sides are performing some sort of vandalism, mostly breaking of WP:3RR. I am not on either side of this argument, I was just reverting page-blanking vandalism, which the IP editor here appears to have done, trying to make a point about something. I do not know enough about this subject to say who is right and who is wrong, but page blanking is a serious form of vandalism. Ryūlóng 20:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The edits deleting whole chunks of text are not legitimate. The central question is, is the information presented properly sourced and soundly written? The answer is yes! The problem herein is that the writers contributing to the article are predominantly contributing information that supports the Afrocentric argument. If you, anonymous editor -- or anyone else -- has a problem with that, then you are by all means invited to present the Eurocentric side. It is not appropriate to excise text simply because you personally disagree with it, or to devalue the work of editors by calling it "vandalism." In fact, you are the one engaging in vandalism. If no one contributes that information (supporting the Eurocentrist argument), and if all those who have a problem with the information continue to do is carp and whine and edit war, then the article will continue to develop as it is. I've said this time and again: put bluntly, put up or shut up. deeceevoice 20:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The consistant revisions are a clearcut case of vandalism in bad faith by a IP adress, not an edit war. Isn't semi-protection good enough? Thanatosimii 20:18, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct. Bad word choice. Correcting vandalism is not edit warring on the part of those doing the reverting. And the repeated vandalism of the unnamed "contributor" is just that. deeceevoice 20:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, because both sides (anon and reg) are involved, full protection may still be required. Ryūlóng 20:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Vandalism#Types of vandalism, blanking is vandalism. According to Three_revert_rule#Exceptions, reverting vandalism is an exception to the 3rr rule, and thus the revisions by the regular users were completely legit and even called for. Thanatosimii 20:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be any dispute here, unless someone can tell me where it says blanking paragraphs is permissable behavior, since Wikipedia:Vandalism#Types of vandalism says blanking is vandalism. I was actually going to add some content between the time I first reverted and the lock, but the lock has been preventing me, so unless someone can put forward a legitimate arguement for keeping it, how does one go about getting it unlocked? Thanatosimii 22:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

You can approach the admin who locked the article. (I don't think he/she can argue, given the information presented here, that the lock is justifiable.) Or, you can go to the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard and list it there. Or, simply go to another admin. There are possibly other remedies, but those should suffice. deeceevoice 22:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Focusing on the Conflict. Objections?

Is there any objection to the article focusing purely on the conflict? (I asked earlier, but it's kind of buried.)

The current article has all of the claims taken out period. It's lacking in several areas:

1. Afrocentrism (when was he born?, who are his parents? , what's he doing these days)

2. The debate was mainly in the good ole US, and people (well not the majority of people, but scientists; and they're what really counts right?) started to not talk about that race thing quite so much, when Hitler started killing people because of it, and we kind of went to war with him.

3. Outfits like Stormfront are still shoveling coal into the good old eurocentrism train. Maybe some mention of them should be made?

Anyway try to ignore that (or fix it. I'd prefer you fix it, so I don't have to, but I'm not the kind of guy to really feel comfortable asking favors like that of people I've never seen; so you can ignore it, if you can.) and just discuss the layout.Altarbo 01:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Not sure I quite follow that... Thanatosimii 01:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

"Is there any objection to the article focusing purely on the conflict?" Just focus on that part and ignore the rest. Sorry for the ramble.Altarbo 01:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

To a degree. It is insufficient to discuss war without discussing weapons, it is insufficient to discuss this conflict without discussing evidence.Thanatosimii 03:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

No objection, I agree that the article should focus on the conflict. The "weapons" (tools/methods) can be discussed very briefly along with the people who played a major role in the controversy, e.g. if a section is mentioning Diop, the method he used and his conclusion can be mentioned along with it in a sentence or two. I also agree that supremacists should be included in the article because the majority who continue the controversy are supremacists. CoYep 05:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Altarbo, who gave you the authority to rewrite the entire article without justifying the action to anyone? Chiwara 06:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Answer: No one. The guy's been gone for days, comes back and totally, unilaterally hacks up the article. Not acceptable. The article is reverted until this can be hashed out. deeceevoice 08:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

That's what I thought. Thanks for reverting. Chiwara 12:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Such a version as Altarbo made is, I suppose, not entierly bad. If he could actually come up with a way to to it without deleting any cited sections from the previous version, it's much better than the false dichotomy we've got going now. However, as it stands, such a change doesn't do justice to the development of the history of the conflict, since the arguments have been largely removed. Thanatosimii 14:15, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Which ones?Altarbo 22:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

How do you mean? Cited arguements ought not be removed. Thanatosimii 23:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Material that is sourced and relevant should stay. I was asking if there was anything specific, that struck you as particularly relevant.Altarbo 02:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Perzackly. And since he's the one who came up with the structure that presents the false-dichotomy in the first place, his hack job is particulary inappropriate. deeceevoice 15:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

wow deecee its not hacking when a person edits where editing if fully permisable. Hacking, is when a person, modifies a page/website, without the permission of the owners. Dont call something, a "hack" job to make it seem worse, then it actually is! Its not hacking!!! User:Cranberryjuice10

Juice: "It's not hacking when a person edits where editing if fully permisable [sic]." WTF? "You know, after reading all this, and other afro-centrist claims, I think there is a reason as to why Europeans are the most advanced people in the world, and why sub-saharan africans are still frozen in time. Think of this me being as a racist...." And this person, who seems to be in need of a dictionary (and vocabulary and spelling seem the least of his/her issues) presumes to give me tips on Wiki etiquette. What's wrong with this picture? :p deeceevoice 04:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

"Computer Hacking" and a "Hack job" have nothing to do with each other.Thanatosimii 19:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I guess something more basic should be adressed first. I don't think there's any place in a modern encyclopedia for an article on the race of a people who existed before race existed. (This is why the article currently has its bizarre title: "racial characteristics") Acceptable would be an article that details the current hypotheses on the origin of the ancient egyptians, or an article that discusses the controversy itself (why it arose, how it developed, etc.). Does anyone disagree with this. Does anyone think that Wikipedia should have articles on the race of people who existed before race existed?Altarbo 02:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This is my problem with the modern "Race is a social construct" bit. While it is true that "Race" is a fairly new system of distinction, when people call it a social contruct it leads some to come to the conclusion that it is impossible to discuss phenotypes from an objective, scientific standpoint, which is incorrect. It is possible to discuss phenotypical charecteristics, and I think they ought to be discussed somewhere on wikipedia, inasmuch as it is encyclopedic knowledge. If it were up to me, "phenotypical charecteristics of the ancient egyptians" would be a good title, but somehow I don't think that would go over so well, inasmuch as I have a tendancy to pick out strange names.Thanatosimii 04:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm with Altarbo. I'm sorry, but in my opinion the informations in this article about "phenotypical charecteristics" such as "ears very large and protruding like a negro’s" belong into a 18/19th century encyclopedia but not in this article in Wikipedia 2006.CoYep 11:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

"race" is a made up concept that deserves to be dumped in the trash, however when europeans made race, they did not create phenotypes. Drop the comparisons to any one "race" by all means, however there are objectivly determinable phenotypical charecteristics present in significant amounts of the ancient egyptian populations, and however completely irrelevant mainstream egyptology thinks they may be, they get disputed frequently, and we're sticking our heads in the sand if we don't deal with them fairly and objectivly. Thanatosimii 03:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

As I said earlier, IMO, the most objective way to deal with those alleged "phenotypes" is to address them in context of the controversy. The current state of the article would certainly improve if it wouldn't cite out of the blue a 19th century French fantasy writer talking about "typical protruding negro ears", and other pseudo-scientific opinions taken from blogs and personal websites, and would instead offer information about alleged phenotypes/racial characteristics in context, meaning: along with notable people actually involved in the controversy, their concepts and ideologies. As long as editors continue to argue about what size of incisors are necessary in order to define an individual as an alleged "typical buck teeth negro", that long we are not going to make any progress. That's why I suggested to discard the current article version and to develop the Talk:Controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians/Draft by Jottce instead. CoYep 14:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Hell, [refactored] if Zahi Hawass can pronounce to the world that Tut was a "Caucasoid North African," ya damned straight we can talk about this matter. You can talk all you want about race not being scientific and blah, blah, blah; but the fact of the matter is it's still an issue. And it most certainly is an issue when it comes to dynastic Egypt. The liars and usurpers won't let it be otherwise. Phenotypical characteristics are commonly extrapolated to "race" even today -- not as rigid, discrete, scientific categories, but as indicators of geographic origin, appearance, skin color, ethnicity/affinities with (or not) other populations), etc. Forensic specialists do it all the time. I'm not going to play the game that, "Oh, we've come so far, it doesn't matter," and all the while, people are still telling the same old, despicable, racist lies with a wink and a nod. The hell it doesn't! You've got ignorant people running around thinking Tut was a freaking light-skinned Arab with hazel eyes! If race/racial characteristics/phenotype/ethnicity -- whatever the heck you wanna call it -- didn't matter, Arabs wouldn't be working so gottdamned hard to appropriate a past to which they cannot legitimately lay claim. There wouldn't be demonstrations at the L.A. County Museum of Art. And a pale-faced, white-eyed Tut reconstruction wouldn't have blown up the way it did worldwide. When the evidence for a black dynastic Egypt gets thick, you and others repeatedly try to change/mutilate the article and delete, wholesale, the evidence, including the photos of anything remotely resembling a black presence. Absolutely not! Who do you think you're foolin'? deeceevoice 07:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

"If race/racial characteristics/phenotype/ethnicity -- whatever the heck you wanna call it -- didn't matter, Arabs wouldn't be working so gottdamned hard to appropriate a past to which they cannot legitimately lay claim." Lineage matters. Common phenotypes or a common set of racial phenotypes would evidence that the "Arabs" in Egypt now, descended from the Ancient Egyptians. This debate, however, has largely centered in the US, between two groups (West Africans and Europeans) who are not the direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians. Race also did not matter in Ancient Egypt. The article should reflect those things.Altarbo 13:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

deecee chill out. You are taking this too seriously.Cranberryjuice10 22:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't mistake my passion for ire. I'm fine. Thanks for your concern, though. :p Still waiting for any substantive contribution to the article from you -- but I'm not holding my breath. deeceevoice 22:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deliberate disinformation about Frank Domingo / New York Times

Deeceevoice, could you please explain your deliberate addition of disinformation about Frank Domingo? [73] [74] [75] [76] [77] [78] [79] You stated that you accessed the article [80], so you know very well that the information is false and that neither West nor Domingo even mentioned "race" in the article ("The Case of the Missing Pharo" by John Anthony West published in the New York Times OpEd section June 27, 1992), nor did they "determined that the sphinx has a "distinctive 'African,' 'Nubian,' or 'Negroid' aspect". Bad-faith edits and the deliberate addition of disinformation compromises not only the integrity of Wikipedia but the integrity of Frank Domingo as well. Stop it. CoYep 11:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Just saw this. (Over time, I've developed a tendency to overlook CoYep's "contributions.") This is plain crap. Assume good faith. I haven't followed the links, but will reply when I have the time -- and the patience -- to do so. deeceevoice 10:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misinformation and asssumption removed

I believe I am the individual who perpetuated this on going debate sometime ago. I have read the entire debate including links, and there are points to be addressed. Firstly race had only been defined by Europeans, it was not a trait associated with Africans in anyway; unfortunately the point of Ancient Khem has been missed. Khem as it was called was a center for trade between the medittaranean, many Greeks studied at the Universities in Khem and in Alexander the Greats writings and his soldiers they speak of the ashed people of Khem. It was a melting pot of the world at the time so yes different colors did arise over time, however the original inhabitants were of indeginous African traits physically and spiritually do to sheer geographically proximity. I dont truly understand the debate it would seem that mixed or full negroid would be irrelevant considering in America one ounce of negroid blood made you full negro. One also should take account of the Bible, Torah, and Q'ran all refer to people of the south being of darker complexion. Another problem, race in the context that Eurocentrics try and prove the point of the darker the more inferior doesnt hold for this arguement, one would have to think like an ancient or better yet in a class system. No matter of your color, your lineage and wealth dictated your status and there was no getting around that unless the Pharoah himself smiled on you. If you were to actually visit Egypt it would tell you the story itself; there are rows of sphinxes (miniature of course) with many nationalities represented. It is common knowledge that Arabs had not taken over Egypt until the 5th Century (which is humorous conisdering the so called authority in Egypt is Arab). Napolean shot the nose off the sphinx for a reason, and its the same reason justforasecond and others tend to lean more towards a fairer skinned Khem. If blacks, negroid, berber, moor, sudanic however one would like to coin it, were people of prominance then prejudice and hate would have no validity considering it would be apparent that no one race genetically is better than another, and thats a point the Khemetans themselves understood. Of course color was not equivalent in ancient times to intelligence, morality, and overall ability as it is today especially with the fairest of the so called races dominating popular culture and undoubtedly taughting there own as dominant. There is no need for research to be cited, it is simple Khemet and Nubians are different (Pharoahs would marry Nubians to keep military and political ties strong)and sub-saharan Africans are different than Northern Africans, I think this is consistant with most minds, yet the pertinant question was not was there a difference but what black or negroid itself is? Its nothing really a made up word, theoretically speaking there is no direct difference nor correlation. Given America as an example what was done to Africans created many different looking so called black people, however they are all considered black as a unifying simplification, the same we undoubtedly saw in Northern Africa due to powerful nations looking to grow there power from the North and East. However, it is concluded in there own hieroglyphics that they held no one color above another as many Eurocentrics do, question to justforasecond and those alike, why do African, Negroids, blacks, however you want to marginalize them, considered incapable of development without European assistance or interference. Even though in times of turmoil we all move closer to whats familiar, Khemetans showed no signs of abuse based on race (Jewish is not a race but a religion/ethnicity)and they did act as a center for learning even during times of turmoil. It is apparent in this page the heart of America and the true feelings of Eurocentrics its sad! No more links, just do yourself a favor and go and look at the walls they will tell you the story. Look long at the images depicted with long hair notice the Locked style. Notice the theory and belief system, the way they worshipped, what they worshipped and who or what was God to them. Go and see how the depicton of color to differentiate between people not just of status even though unwittingly by Khemetans became one and the same. And for the record, you will only find black people calling themselves black people in America, everywhere else they actually have a country and a history and a religion and lineage and thus cling to a past they dont belong to either. Most all black in America are descendant of West Africans while Khem would have seemed on the other side of the world to them during the times we are discussing. It is evident to me 1. Eurocentrics want to wipe away all credibility of civilization of the disenfranchised black american as they did when first stolen from their homeland. This seems to be continuing today for some reason it seem Eurocentrics believe an uprising in the wind if blacks in America understood a long standing history of Africa. Even if they are not directly linked to it genetically, they could affiliate and assume the accomplishments. One question to Eurocentrics, with some strong arguments from objective sources who are reliable and well studied professionals concluding that without doubt the race of Khem was darker skinned, subject to Native African environment and culture, had or maybe even developed African thought and religion, and documented interaction with other Africans far more frequently than those of other nations why is it wrong or farfetched that they would actually be black as you would call it in America? One question to Afro-centrics, must you be validated by European authorities on every argument, when will your voice and your research be enough? There is one truth we as individual people will believe what we believe, the fact will never change and unfortunately the facts are skewed and seeded. How unfortunate we are not to be more like ancient Khemet. Saklas

I removed

• While prominent in modern English, the word "black" had no racial connotations in Ancient Egyptian^{[citation needed]} . Clearly African nations such as Nubia were never referred to as "black"; nor were the undoubtedly light-skinned Semitic neighbors to the North referred to as "white", "yellow", or any other term based on skin color. Different nations were referred to by their actual names, i.e. Nubians, Libyans, etc. Experts on the Ancient Egyptian language such as Raymond Faulkner and James P. Allen universally state that "black land" referred to the color of the soil around the Nile, in line with the "black land" of Russia and Ukraine.

because it is not only NPOV, but it is just plain false. "Kushite" in Hebrew and Egyptian meant "BLACK". In addition, I personally have read things in Ancient Egyptian where the Semites are referred to as "yellow" or the hurrians as "pale skinned", the one that comes to mind, King Amanemhat, the throat slitter of Asia as he was known referred to the Asiatics (Aamu) as yellow. In addition, this paragraph is inappropriately in the wrong spot. It's a rebutal of the Afrocentric position, which is a rebuttal of the Eurocentric position. In effect the contribnutor is trying to neutralize the Afrocentric position by stating neutrality. This issue of naming all the black people of the world after black bodied rivers is also starting to get old and show itself. They tried this with the River Niger (Dasibari/Isa-ber) and the people dimunitive at the end of the word does not lend itself to mean "people of the black land" it means "land of black people"> Think about it. the Nubians and Kushits ALSO are people of the same kind of BLACK LAND. I'll say there is no 100% conclusion either way. One could say "black land people" also.

In effect the contribnutor is trying to neutralize the Afrocentric position by stating neutrality.

You're not clear on this point. I think you just accused the article of being neutral. Furthermore, I will state this only one more time. If someone thinks KMT means "Black people," that person is either a crackpot or decieved by one. please don't think me rude here, it is merely becoming painfully tedious to try to kill that ridiculous idea. When faulkner says it, it goes, barring a well argued published work to the contrary, which is not in existence on this issue. Thanatosimii 20:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanaatosimii, maybe you think the idea of reverse psychology is novel, but I am really ignoring your attempts to apply it with me. Read my replacement of the text which I removed again. Read it and think about it before you go a-reverting. Furthermore the assumption that the "Black Land" refers to the dirt is erroneous because many other areas outside of "the Black Land" along the nile ALSO have the same "Black Land". Nubia, Kush, Kerma, Meroe, etc. All along the river, they all share the same characteristic. In fact, as you know, there has never been any proof given that KEMET was understood by the Egyptians as meaning "black land". But never the less I do not conclude either way (as I stated before), because the word for black skinned people (Nehesi, Kush) also is not applied to Kemetic people (however this may not be conclusive either as Nehesi, Kush, and Kemet may all three be different kinds of Black people!). But that't not where my editing is focused. Where we are at loggerheads is that you erroneously conclude that the Egyptians did not have skin color names for people, yet they did. They were not color blind any more than we are today. The difference is, they just didn't automatically assign disdain in their minds to the darker colored people. Black people do not just come from "Africa" and historically have not been resigned to African soil. Black people were not trapped on the continent only to come out in shackles by the assistance of conquering Arabs or Europeans or Romans. So lets start being objective. This article discusses the CONTROVERSY. Both sides have their premises, and i am placing the premisises appropriately. You are not supposed to erase them because you don't think they are "correct". Doubly so when it is revealed that they actually ARE Correct! --Zaphnathpaaneah 04:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

What is it today with people reading their own insinuations into what I write? I mean what I said: you can't wipe somthing you don't agree with, and you quite obviously have no understanding of egyptian determinitive use, inasmuch as what you have said is both false (the people determinitive is used frequently to refer to the denziens of a geographic location, wherein it is substituted for the axt symbol) and you've disagreed with faulkner without citing a differing up to date source. I read what you said and found it wanting, and you blanked a paragraph. I have reverted blanks by true eurocentrists in the past: do not mistake what I do for some kind of malevolence or partizanship (I think the whole debate is largely absurd, especially given the false dichotomy); it is merely an attempt to maintain order. Blanking is bad. Thanatosimii 19:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, let me help you again. It is certainly true that they referred to people based on geography, but they also did based on Ethnicity. What was the difference between the "Nebu" and "Nehesi"? One refers to a "location" and another refers to a "race/ethnicity". If not Can you tell me the geographic difference if that is not the case? And what of the "Aamu" (Asian) and the "shemsu" Semites? And the "Tamhou"(whites) and the "Libu" (people from Libyan region)? I can certainly agree maybe they didn't see the similarities in exactly the way we saw them, but there is obviously a difference between their regional and racial conceptions! --Zaphnathpaaneah 04:00, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It would help if you could provide sources to what you've added.Altarbo 04:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Circular problem with the article

The article itself is ABOUT the controversy about the race of the Ancient Egyptians. To put a NPOV or any other controversy tag is either redundant, or the person who put it there may not know the difference between the controversy and discussing the controversy, OR there is actually controversy over the controversy over the article. So if there is controversy over the convroversy over the article, the question is how? Here are some ways.

• Either the Afrocentric or Eurocentric positions are misrepresented.
• The evidence to justify either position is placed inappropriately (which is what I see).
• One side is viewed as false while the other is not viewed as false.
• The concept of race is not applied consistently in the article.

One thing I notice is that the Cranial stuff was put in two areas. I noticed that was inappropriate because it predisposed the readers to be biased against the Afrocentric position, when we all know that cranial analysis in itself does not credibly determine the race of the Egyptians. Certainly there are caucasoids who have historically been black and there are caucasoids who today are unquestionably Black. Only when the concept of "caucasoid" is redefined to mutually exclude black people (an argument made from silence) then we have a new issue, that issue is one of making a term mean what it is no intended to mean in order to promote another issue.

I will give my position. Since we continue to define blackness in ways that are manipulative for the benefit of white sensibiliities, it is inappropriate to ignore the fact that modern interpretation on modern people but not on ancient people. Even though THEY did not have the same concept as WE do, WE are the ones interpreting them. If Ancient Egyptian archaeologists could interpret black americans today, I am sure they would call them "Egyptians" and "Nubians". IN no way would Ancient Egyptians view themselves as 'non-black' Caucasoids. It's absurd. But I have not pushed that conclusion on the article yet. I am merely aware of the weaseling tactics by those who push the EUrocentric position on here. I am going to fight it to the bitter end. --Zaphnathpaaneah 20:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Another evidence to support that the Egyptians were more Black than white is this. The Egyptians had lightskinned and darkskinned African people in the same family. They did not view the darkerskinned ones as "less Egyptian". Thus, unlike the CONCEPT of whtieness, the Egyptians did not follow that kind of articulation of their identity. They certainly can not be considered white for being mixed. With skulls, its another manipulation. If you take a negroid and caucasoid pair of parents, their child comes out in the middle. That "in the middle" has been classified as Caucasoid by our great illustrious craniometric scientists. Thats bias. Thats going to be pointed out in this article. --Zaphnathpaaneah 20:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Zaphanathpaaneah, you aren't being cogent here or anywhere else. These paragraphs have been teetering on the edge of gibberish and I don't really understand what on earth you are trying to say in them. Please be clearer next time. Thanatosimii 20:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Your listening skills then are undeveloped. I would recommend that you refrain from editing until you gain a stronger comprehensibility of the English language. --Zaphnathpaaneah 04:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't have a problem understanding what Zaphnathpaaneah was saying. Your criticism is nothing but a thinly veiled insult directed at a person whose position you disagree with. There would be little difference if I were to insinuate here that since you didn't understand what he was saying, you must not be very intelligent. Let's leave the attacks out of this; they don't contribute anything positive to the discussion of how to make this page better. The crux of the point Zaphnathpaaneah was making in my opinion is that the way ancient Egyptians saw race may be relevent and may belong in the article, but as far as the CONTROVERSY which is what this article is about, it makes sense to use a modern interpretation or understanding of the concept of race.Pihanki 04:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

How can I disagree with him, since I don't understand him? His logic in his last paragraph makes no sense whatsoever. So does his previous naming-black-people-for-rivers bit. Naming for rivers?
Now, I'll take your word that a modern interpretation of race is what he was advocating. Assuming this is so, I have to disagree, inasmuch as modern anthropologists have utterly discarded race from a scientific standpoint. There are phenotypes (hence this page is named "Racial Charecteristics..."), but they do not fall into two distinct "this is black" and "this is white" viewpoints. This is where the problem happens. There is a middle ground between the two, two different people can look at a person in that middle and both come to two totally different conclusions as to race. There is a picture of a fellahin girl on this page which some editors think looks black, or negroid, or what have you. Now, I have a latina friend who looks extremely similar to her, so I'd personally never come to that interpretation. This is why this article is problematic. Phenotypes are absolute and objective; race is subjective and arbetrary. We need to stick to phenotypes as far as possible.Thanatosimii 16:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Let me help you. I am advocating that the controversy over the race of the ancient egyptians stems from a Eurocentric attempt to link the Ancient Egyptians to European cultures, and then the Afrocentric response to debunk that mythological link. In doing so the Afrocentric side also created a controversy by overly associating a link between Ancient Egyptians and West Africans, or by using the same faulty Eurocentric logic and creating a circular arguement that only the blackest Egyptians were "truly" Egyptian. My response is that in any event, objectively, if we viewed the Egyptians physically they would be perceived as Black far more often than as White, and that the controversy is not resolve by saying "our modern concept of race did not exist in those days". To socially (not legally) classify someone as White nowadays for example requires a very narrow interpretation of phenotype and skin color. To Legally classify someone as white requires nothing more than a birth certificate showing your place of origin (the blackest man in the world can be classified as white if he was born in modern Egypt Mostafa Hefny). In ancient history, modern archaeologists reverse things (thereby still creating a controversy) and apply the most liberal and broad definitions of whiteness (basically synonymous with being human) to the Ancient Egyptians. Yet and still, their physical appearance relates to other black people not any other white people. I cannot mistake an Ancient Egyptian for a German, but I am sure to mistake one for a Nigerian from time to time. Furthermore, no one gets their classification changed by their skull shape. Nor does the skull shape of a person ever change society's perception of their race. You get it now? --Zaphnathpaaneah 04:17, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. However, my statement remains... "white" and "black" are subjective terms. To bring up the fellah picture again, I have no qualms with the statement that she looks like an ancient egyptian, as they existed then. But I would never call her black. I wouldn't call her white, but I wouldn't call her black. Thanatosimii 04:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

You can bring it up a thousand times. There is no way you are going to find a "white" girl that looks like her unless your definition of "white" is changed just so you CAN include her. She will never be mistaken for a European unless that European is a non-white pre-20th century Gypsy, Pre WW2 Jew, or mixed person of African descent. That means people who are not white and who were not considered white should not be confused as being white when they are NOT. But she certainly looks like the regular old black kids on my street. Go FIGURE! --Zaphnathpaaneah 04:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Ridiculous, Thanatosimii. The Fellah girl in the photo is clearly a black African -- which is why I put it there. It is also why there was such a battle royale in Egypt about including the photo. deeceevoice 11:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

You both say that. That's subjective. I have a latina friend who looks extremely similar to her, so I could never call her black. Black is a subjective term, hence the controversy. Thanatosimii 13:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

That's because she is from Latin America, not because of how she looks. You wouldn't consider any Latina to be black no matter how black they looked (unless they looked so negroid there was no other obvious option). You have to understand, Egypt is in Africa, RIGHT NEXT DOOR to other unquestionably Black people. It's no coiencidence that this "non-black" Egyptian just so happens to resemble other black people. Even though you deny the resemblance, there is no doubt in my mind that if you saw her walking around in Harlem NYC, or Washington DC you would, without question, identify herself in your mind as a black girl. NOT calling her Black is ALSO subjective. Objectivity has to do with being honest about what you really perceive, not what you consciously try to make yourself want to perceive. --Zaphnathpaaneah 04:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Another ridiculous argument. Your "latina friend" looks like her only because many Latinos are black. "Latino" is not a racial designation; it is purely an ethnic one. Native Spanish-speaking blacks in the New World are "Latinos," or, more accurately, "Afro-Latinos." You're playing the flimsiest of word games, barely worthy of being commented upon. deeceevoice 07:56, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The NPOV tag is because people are trying to promote positions on a controversial issue rather than give information about the controversy. Altarbo

No. There is a difference between laying out an argument -- explication -- and advocacy. No way we're going back to the version you left us with, Altarbo -- with all the meat of the article summarily purged, along with any photo that looked even remotely black. deeceevoice 11:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

And doubly so, because I spent a whole lot of time to address this very excuse "Black is subjective" I totally killed that arguement because you can go to the Black People article and see for yourself. For example, there are BLACK people in India (Dalits, Siddi, Shudra, etc), in the Rig Veda (described as black), and even our boy "Khrishna" is known as a black person. I await your vehement denials punctuated with accusations of a black conspiracy to "take" something illegitimately. --Zaphnathpaaneah 02:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Black is subjective. Take these two statements:

John is male.

John is black.

The first statement about John is clearly objective. There are several ways to prove that John is male. For example, we can check what organs John has. The second statement however is unverifiable. What test could we do to prove that John is black?

I do believe that there are plenty of people that anyone today would consider black. This doesn't have anything to do with objectivity. Most everyone would say that Hitler was evil. That doesn't make, "Hitler is evil," an objective statement.Altarbo

Altarbo, look... meet me over here at camera 3. Ok, Altarbo, buddy... pal... If we were to take your logic, then there would be no black people. We wouldn't exist. Now of course that is not your goal, I am certain that you don't want to wish black people away... That's why I have been promoting that Blackness is not a concept limited to skin color. it's a concept that also has ethnic and social aspects, distinctive ones that merit real acknowledgement. I do not need to literally HAVE black skin to be considered Black any more than I literally need to PRACTICE Judaism to be Jewish or to SPEAK spanish to be hispanic, nor LIVE in Latin America to be Latino. I have yet to find your comments illustrated logically in this way in the Jewish, Hispanic, or Latino articles. An Ethnicity is not reliant on one (or the main) aspect that gives it distinction. Well except whiteness, which explains why white people take the attitude you have. If they are required to strictly fit in the narrow definition of whiteness... then why aren't black people required to fit in an equally narrow definition of blackness? It's not fair is it? Blame the white ancestors that created that inequity called white purity, because the chickens have come home to roost! --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

My point is simply that blackness is subjective. I have not seen a clear explanation from you of why it's not. Altarbo 20:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Or let me put it to you bluntly. I am going to eradicate the Eurocentric bias from this subject, step by step. Methodically. Lock and load. No more Eurocentric semantic games. No more homographic tricks. If your idea of a black person is so narrow that you can see that black egyptian girl as Indian, and I can find a thousand black girls in my neighborhood that look like her... well guess what. Your Indian friend LOOKS LIKE A BLACK GIRL. This whole nonsense about Black people lookin... :) Wait a minute. Why don't I just link pictures to girls in America, black girls that look just like her!

[81] [82] [83] (look at the girl on the right on the horse)

Now, I am not trying to say that they look EXACTLY like her. What I am trying to show is the variation of black people is obvious. You can see these kids do not look like your narrow view of what a black person looks like, but they still look undeniably BLACK! All of this nonsense also does something I dislike, it disrespects the fact that black people whom look like the specific type that is held by Eurocentrists are also acknowledged by the rest of us. I mean not to do that. But I do mean to get this myth destroyed. Black people do not look like one specific narrow type. NOR DID THE EGYPTIANS. Black people have particlar characteristics that were distinct from Europeans, Semites, and Asians. SO DID THE EGYPTIANS! Black people and Ancient Egyptians are visually interchangeable! --Zaphnathpaaneah 02:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Altarbo, your argument is silly. One would "prove" John's blackness the same way one would "prove" his maleness, by applying commonly accepted criteria to determine "race"/ethnicity: phenotype, lineage, geographic origin of that lineage, etc. Of course, it is already acknowledged that "race" is unscientific and that definitions of the term itself vary; however, given the broad parameters of the term "black" and all it encompasses, it should be fairly easy to determine, given appropriate information, whether John is, in fact, black in the commonly (not universally) accepted meanings of the term. And given the right of people to decide who and what they, themselves, are, that is objectivity. Such an approach may not be scientific, but, then, the term is not scientific. The determinative method is, however, empirically sound. deeceevoice 07:51, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The article starts off lying to support the Eurocentric bias

I removed the bold faced lie below:

• The controversy over racial characteristics of ancient Egyptians refers to a conflict over the the racial identity of ancient Egyptians, dating back to 18th century natural history which first attempted to systematically classify human beings based on genetics.

Why? Because only a manipulator would try to push the notion that genetic studies of human populations was being done in the 1700s. Genetic study didn't even begin as a science until the early 1920s. The racial undertones for genetic variation were not created until the 1950s. The bold portion lies doubly so because of the word "first". It was FIRST attempted... No, what natural history first attempted to do was to classify human beings based on regional origins. next was skin color. Then educational western social order. Then phenotype. Then skull shape. etc. Maybe I dont have the order exactly correct, but genetics is not in here. I also know there is another definition of genetics that does not refer to DNA, but more loosely refers to offspring or biological relationships. However, that is misleading to use that obscure definition in here if that IS the case. This article is controversal in itself and using homograms and false cognates is a sign of NPOV and weasel tactics. "natural history"? Oh it was already official and objective by the 18th century? No I think not. Bye bye misleading statement! and I will undo any reverts --Zaphnathpaaneah 05:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I rewrote the first two paragraphs

Let us clarify what this article is about. This article is not about proving that the Afrocentric viewpoint is wrong nor that the Eurocentric viewpoint is wrong (even though to me it is hypocritically wrong). this article is about describing the controversy over the Ancient Egyptians. So the first two paragraphs should do what Wikipedia expects. It describes what the article is about and gives a clear synopsis of where the controversial topic stands today. We should not see anyone in here going back and restoring nonsense to refute the Afrocentric claim, and certainly no one should be posting false statements to back up the Eurocentric claim (like the one about genetics being used in the 18th century). Certainly it should not be stated nor implied that "everyone reasonable" agrees with the Eurocentric position, while the "unscientific biased" agree with the Afrocentric position. That is first of all not a controversy, but a circular argument. Second it's false anyway. Reverts will be undone. This talk page should be used to make changes that diverge from the essence of this reasoning. And one more thing. I want you to know, I have been waiting a LONG time to come back in here and get this article where it belongs. You guys refuted me by going on and on about the fact that we cannot reallyd define what "black" means. So I took care of THAT. Now let us no longer play the "what is black, no one knows, oh well" game. --Zaphnathpaaneah 05:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A morotorium, please!

There's a sudden rush to wiping data wholesale out of this article if one finds it absurd. Now, I'm no expert, so perhaps a good deal ought to indeed go. However, that's what the talk page is for. Please, If I might propose a suggestion: If somthing looks wrong,

• adress it on the talk page before you delete it, or
  
• delete it and put on the talk page a credible source which justifies the deletion.
  

The world won't end if this page doesn't look perfectly accurate to our own sensibilities for a few hours. If somthing looks wrong, raise the point, don't drop the paragraph. Furthermore, It would be polite if one were to ask the claiments of a "patently incorrect" statement for a citation before wiping. (p.s.: Apparently because of my critical look at this page, I apparently am being cast into the "other" camp in the minds of multiple editors. So I will be clear: I used the words "patently incorrect" because those are words I would use. I did this intentionally in order to avoid seeming to take a cheap shot at any given editor, yet if you feel targeted, rest assured you are not. I'm just going after the whole sentiment of "let's wipe things" that's been on this page for, apparently, quite a long time. It's difficult to express tone of voice on the internet, and in a heated debate I am aware that the obvious tone of agressive editors can be impressed upon the less accusatory, but let me assure you that I have no personal beef with any of you, only a cold, calculating desire for exacting accuracy.) Thanatosimii 19:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

No. The reason why is obvious. Your views get to remain in the article, while opposing views require the moratorium and lengthy process before they can be added in. Thats a misuse of the whole thing. In fact, if you look at the editing history by the time I arrived, there has not been "wholesale" wiping out of anything. The article has gone through reasonable changes. I certainly have been putting clear concise reasons for my changes, and as you can see, little or no objections have been given. Why don't you just do this kind of thing? Look at the example below:

[edit] Medjay removed

I removed this:

• The Ancient Egyptians employed several terms to describe people that they perceived distinct from themselves. The inhabitants of Lower Nubia were known as the Medjay (possibly ancestors to the Beja) or Ta-Seti (the land between Aswan and Edfu), while Ta-Nehesy, meaning "the land of the Nesyu" ("Nubian" in modern terms) was used to describe both the settled nile valley inhabitants and the desert nomads (this state was indigenously termed "Wawat"), and Kush referred to the state south of the 3rd cataract in Upper Nubia.^[4]

and restored my previous contribution because. 1. Medjay does not and never has referred to a group (by race), which is what this article describes. This is not about just "other people distinct from themselves", this is about a racial controversy. So for example, Medjay describe a warrior class or caste of Nubians, but this does not describe the Nubians as a whole. Beja and Medjay may or may not be related. Ta-Seti is a regional name, and there were no "setiu" or "setites" people. The Nehesi was a place name based on people. Ta-Nehesyu (Land of the Nubians), but that was already in the article. In any event, the paragraph seems to dilute the black presence by redefining it based on regional names (although Wawat is a good example), Ta-Nehesi, Wawat, Kush, are all specific regions, but only "Kush" and "Nehesi" were used to describe people (if you can find a WAWAT people description then add it in). --Zaphnathpaaneah 01:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed:

• Afrocentrists argue that it still as useful tool to determine the race of people and use the shape of intact skulls of ancient Egyptians as evidence that the Ancient Egyptians were black^{[citation needed]} . They argue that skulls of royal Egyptian mummies show a predominance of classically negroid features such as dolichocephalic cranial structures^{[citation needed]} .

Because no one has cited this for the long period it was online. Secondly this is not the Afrocentric position as far as I know it. The craniometry has not been a useful afrocentric position except for those who selectively choose skulls and reject others as (not truly egyptian). Those are not part of the mainstream afrocentric position. if they are, you should after all of this time put the citation in. --Zaphnathpaaneah 01:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A plea for civility

Deeceevoice

Your recent comments have been markedly uncivil. It has also bordered on racist and, as far as I can tell, not true. You can't go around calling people liars and usurpers just because you think differently than they do. It's clear you have an opinioned on this matter -- anyone who disagrees with you is "ignorant". etc. and it looks like you are getting a little worked up. Please, be kind to others.

Justforasecond 21:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been watching this page with interest for quite some time and it sometimes seems that there is a eurocentric POV steamroller in effect in the article and on the talk page. I changed the heading of the section under "de-centrist arguments from "Potential backfires" witch certainly espoused some editor's viewpoint of the afrocentric position, to the more neutral "A controversial perspective." Oguibe's perspective certainly can be included in the page despite its incoherence, but it does not need to be advocated for by the topic heading.

As far as the talk page, I chimed in over Thanatosimii's comments toward Zaphnathpaaneah when he called comments made "gibberish." Now I feel the need to ask Justforasecond exactly what recent uncivil comments by Deeceevoice he's talking about? I can't help but wonder if this is just a classic case of the ad hominem response like those I used to see in my classes when I taught high school. I would listen to two students who had been in an altercation each try to paint the other one as the most violent, profane, uncivil or what have you, knowing that swinging public opinion (and my opinion as the authority figure in the classroom) against the other was essential in winning their case. Pihanki 00:30, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. The steamroller comes in predictably. I am FINALLY glad someone else picked up on it. Where is the Asian, Arab, or Egyptian guy that should be coming in any minute now to complain about how his culture is being stolen by Afrocentrics? Where is the extremely pissed off guy that is "calling it how it is bluntly" that the Egyptians just "weren't black"? I am not going to have an arguement about how blackness is subjective and that really there is no such thing as being black. I already went there and resolved that. Go to the Black People page. Classic ad hominem attack: Accuse the otherside of committing an ad hominem attack! Classic ad hominem attack against a black person: Accuse them of being racist! --Zaphnathpaaneah 04:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

As for Justforasecond. I would request people view his talk page. Also view his contributions on other articles. He seems to follow this pattern:

• in a black article, he takes the stand that tends to add more negative "tidbits" about the content (even if the tidbit is not related to the cause or creation of the content, see his user page regarding Kwanzaa for a good example.)
• he appeals to us to be calm
• he falsely accuses someone of ad hominem.
• He prematurely incites a Wiki-policy violation action.

I left a message on his talk page, informing him to continue this action. There is a psychological aspect to it that I am trying to get understood. So everyone, please do not discourage him from falsely accusing you of ad hominems, or from pointing out every negative thing that has ever been done by black people. I want the bias in his heart to be free for others to see more clearly. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:00, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's the diatribe I was referring to. Hell, [refactored] (still uncivil, guess she removed worse. whats the point of "hell" here?) if Zahi Hawass can pronounce to the world that Tut was a "Caucasoid North African," (note he didn't say "arab", "white") ya damned straight (uncivil) we can talk about this matter. You can talk all you want about race not being scientific and blah, blah, blah (belittling others contributions, including mainstream scientific view on races); but the fact of the matter is it's still an issue. And it most certainly is an issue when it comes to dynastic Egypt. The liars and usurpers(uncivil) won't let it be otherwise....I'm not going to play the game that, "Oh, we've come so far, it doesn't matter," (belittling the scientific view) and all the while, people are still telling the same old, despicable, racist lies with a wink and a nod (liars, racists, etc.). The hell it doesn't! (hell, again) You've got ignorant (anyone that inserts counter evidence or disagrees --> ignorant ) people running around thinking Tut was a freaking light-skinned Arab with hazel eyes! If race/racial characteristics/phenotype/ethnicity -- whatever the heck you wanna call it -- didn't matter, Arabs wouldn't be working so gottdamned hard to appropriate a past to which they cannot legitimately lay claim. There wouldn't be demonstrations at the L.A. County Museum of Art. And a pale-faced, white-eyed Tut reconstruction wouldn't have blown up the way it did worldwide (did it, really?). When the evidence for a black dynastic Egypt gets thick, you and others repeatedly try to change/mutilate the article and delete, wholesale, the evidence, including the photos of anything remotely resembling a black presence (untrue accusations, and failure to AGF). Absolutely not! Who do you think you're foolin'? (editor in question wasn't trying to "fool" anyone, as far as I know he was inserting verifiable info and images of statues that didn't look "black" enough)

Justforasecond 15:02, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

There certainly are other editors who would disagree with you there, JFAS. The article was gutted of much useful information, with virtually all of the dark images deleted -- without discussion, without even explanation. Most, if not all, of that information has been reinserted, and without significant protest; this is old news. In fact, Altarbo has even admitted "a lot of stuff in the my revision of the article was also POV...." But here you come, with your usual ham-handedness, trying to stir up trouble. Gee, JFAS, why don't you try contributing something constructive, instead of your constant, disruptive edit-warring around the site -- frequently on articles treating black subject matter? deeceevoice 16:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Your insults towards my contributions and claims of malfeasance on the part of other editors don't change the simple truth: calling people liars, usurpers, racists, ignorant, crakkkas, etc. isn't nice. Can't imagine you'd disagree with that. Justforasecond 17:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Baiting is uncivil. Stop. Altarbo 20:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't you ever get tired of following me around the website, dragging up old crap and trying to incite animus? Because I personally find you/it exceedingly tiresome/boring. Shoo. Go make yourself useful. Write something in an article that is truly informative and not edit warring, something that improves the project. That would be nice. deeceevoice 21:21, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Without even reading the argument in question, deeceevoice, I can tell you that this comment crosses the line of incivility. If you have nothing civil and constructive to say to Justforasecond, I would recommend that you ignore him, because comments like the one you just made are likely to accomplish nothing other than getting you admonished. You can think anything you want about Justforasecond, but saying what you just said is unequivocably against WP policy. - CheNuevara 21:30, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

H-m-m. I thought my response was pretty tame -- plainspoken, but tame. But if I can't simply speak my mind without inviting such input as you've just provided, then I simply will ignore the bwoi. That's easy enough. :pdeeceevoice 21:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I specifically asked Justforasecond what RECENT uncivil comments Deeceevoice had made. He comes back with a comment made by Deeceevoice dated 31 August. It's fine if an editor for whatever reason doesn't visit a page for a couple of weeks, but then to come in and comment on something that took place two weeks ago, as if it happened yesterday is not constructive at all. Certainly other editors, who had a problem with what Deeceevoice said, dealt with the issue at the time of occurrence. Rehashing an old "violation" is little more than another form of ad hominem. What good for the article comes from a string of editors piling on to "chastise" one editor over something that happened two weeks ago? Let's deal with the more immediate concerns such as calling another editor's comments "gibberish." I feel that Justforasecond's rehashing of an old issue, in itself violates WP policy, and contributes to the overall contentiousness on the talk page and ultimately makes the quality of the page suffer for it.Pihanki 02:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

No surprise. That's his M.O. -- and has been -- for several months: contributing little or nothing of a positive nature, just picking at old scabs and lobbing Molotov cocktails for the hell of it. From now on, I'm going to take Che's advice and ignore him all together; he doesn't warrant further comment. deeceevoice 02:45, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

That may well be; I admitted I didn't read most of the argument. But incivility doesn't justify incivility, and what I was saying was that deeceevoice's response to Justforasecond's accusations of incivility was clearly incivil. That's all I was saying. - CheNuevara 02:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, given the context, I think your admonition is pretty much without any real merit, Che -- but I'd rather not have to bother with comments like yours at all. It's simply easier just to ignore the guy. And, Pihanki, you're right on target -- but also very generous (or not familiar with JFAS's pattern/history). The "crakkka" comment was made probably a year ago (and probably even longer ago than that) and, as I've explained before, is descriptive of a mind-set. He's raised the matter several times over the last several months in several different (and equally inappropriate) locations on the website. Again, he's dredged up old news -- and a lot older than August 31.deeceevoice 02:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Pleas for civility have been thoroughtly acknowledged by all sides. Now let us ascertain, how much of an effect this is having on the momentum of the article. I always see a net-negative impact on the black perspective being promoted. I still see "white" Egyptian sculptures exclusively on the site, and I cannot upload images from the locations I wish until I can resolve these silly copywright concerns. --Zaphnathpaaneah 04:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seriously, there is no controversy left here

There is no controversy ABOUT the controversy in this article. The only thing missing is pictures of SCULPTURES to support the Afrocentric position. That's not a controversy that's a matter of getting pictures. The layout of the article and the perspectives of the article are pretty well balanced at this point. Even though I think the Afrocentric position is more accurate and consistent, the article I still think is balanced. I removed the tag.

BEFORE you raise it again, list some reasons why on here FIRST! All of the arguments beforehand that are archived and what not, they don't matter at this point. I rewrote the first two paragraphs to clarify what the article is about and no one has really disputed that. So if you have a legitimate grievance, put it here and let's discuss it first. I am only watching out for Eurocentric weasel words and homograms and semantic games. I certainly see the Afrocentric position well developed (but lacking enough pictures). Need I reiterate anymore? --Zaphnathpaaneah 05:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Immature wording removed

I removed

• The controvery over the race of Ancient Egyptians is actually a very sensitive issue. This is because it has been established beyond reasonable that the earliest form of science, technology, medicine and civilization, has been traced with accurate archeological facts to Egypt.

because it's worded very immaturely. "actually" is weasel word. Also the first statement is overly redundant (this article is called CONTROVERSY over the characteristics...), when is a controversy NOT a sensitive issue? The real question is WHY is it sensitive? Well, I answered that in the first two paragraphs already, so this is redundant now. And despite my insistence that the Egyptians are Black, it's not valid to say "earliest form of science, tecnology...." those are qualative statements that even to this day are not backed up by evidence. Certainly Egypt is AMONG the oldest civilizations and I personally believe it IS the oldest but we have not conclusively proven that. We only assert it strongly based on our charisma as Afrocentrics (which is not how proof gets established). I am not here to see this article get changed to "faith that Afrocentricism is correct". The proof speaks for itself, so I took the paragraph above out. Place some photos instead. Or some information about what year the first civilization existed. Place some info showing how Egypt influenced Sumer (a civilization that existed aroudn the same time). etc. --Zaphnathpaaneah 04:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The questioning of "the present status"

Whoever it is who is putting "citation needed" all over the present status needs to understand something. This is not about beating one side or another with citational red tape. The statements are already backed up by data elsewhere in the article, and by information in the Ancient Egyptians article itself. We do not need to continue to create the wheel, and to do an entire Ancient Egyptian history lesson on this article to cite the obvious. If you feel a citation is really needed, you do your part, find some info on the statements you find lacking (or disagreeable), cite them and correct where necessary. Do not think for a second that "citation needed" is a slick way to get the Afrocentric side to capitulate. It won't work. --Zaphnathpaaneah 04:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reserch on genetics

Didn't this article once include research on the genetic characteristics of modern egyptians?

[edit] Desecration of artwork

I noticed something this article leaves out, and something that few people consider- it's extremely likely that many pieces of artwork and records depicting black africans were desecrated and destroyed by invading semetic armies. I don't deny ancient egypt's multi-ethnic makeup, but considering how arabs have traditionally held a disdain for african blacks, considering the early slave-trading islamic empires, the Archamedans almost certainly destroyed much of those.

I am just glad that those white sculptures were removed. Whoever put them there was being a little dishonest, most of them were not painted, or the paint had just worn off. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] complete rewrite necessary

This article is missing much if not most of what is explained much better and shorter in Egyptians#Origins:

Over the years, the findings of archaeology, biological anthropology and genetics have been able to shed light on the origins of the Egyptians. The indigenous Nile Valley population became firmly established during the Pleistocene when nomadic hunter-gatherers began living along the Nile river. Traces of these proto-Egyptians appear in the form of artifacts and rock carvings in the terraces of the Nile and the desert oases. Beginning in the predynastic period, some differences between the populations of Upper and Lower Egypt have been ascertained through their skeletal remains, suggesting a gradual clinal pattern north to south. Mediterranean influences were more predominant in the north, while a tropical pattern was also evident in the deep south.^[5][6][7][8] When Lower and Upper Egypt were unified c. 3150 BC, the distinction began to blur, resulting in a more "homogeneous" population in Egypt, though the distinction remains true to some degree to this day.^[9][10][11]

A 2006 bioanthropological study on the dental morphology of ancient Egyptians by Prof. Joel Irish shows dental traits characteristic of indigenous North Africans and to a lesser extent Southwest Asian populations. Among the samples included in the study is skeletal material from the Hawara tombs of Fayum, which was found to be virtually identical to that of the Badarian series of the predynastic period. Biological continuity was found intact from the dynastic to the post-pharaonic periods. According to Irish:

...an inspection of MMD values reveals no evidence of increasing phenetic distance between samples from the first and second halves of this almost 3,000-year-long period. For example, phenetic distances between First-Second Dynasty Abydos and samples from Fourth Dynasty Saqqara (MMD ¼ 0.050), 11-12th Dynasty Thebes (0.000), 12th Dynasty Lisht (0.072), 19th Dynasty Qurneh (0.053), and 26th–30th Dynasty Giza (0.027) do not exhibit a directional increase through time... Thus, despite increasing foreign influence after the Second Intermediate Period, not only did Egyptian culture remain intact (Lloyd, 2000a), but the people themselves, as represented by the dental samples, appear biologically constant as well.^[12]

A group of noted physical anthropologists conducted similar studies and concluded that "the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well."^[13]

Genetic analysis of modern Egyptians reveals that they have paternal lineages common to indigenous North Africans/Berber populations primarily, and to Near Eastern peoples to a lesser extent. These lineages would have spread during the Neolithic and maintained by the predynastic period.^[14][15] Studies based on maternal lineages also link Egyptians with people from modern Eritrea/Ethiopia such as the Tigre.^[16][17]

--Espoo 11:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

This article is no longer about the "origins of the Ancient Egyptians". If you would like to create one, that has been discussed before, but this is about the history of the dispute. - Che Nuevara 19:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no Controversy. The Afrocentric arguments are not based on any scientific facts, and they are tring to establish their argurmnt based on how some 3000 years old statues look like. Most of the Egyptians mummys does not show negroid element (Check the hair of Ramses II in his mummy colored picture above). Here are some pictures for egyptians fellahin. Which also does not show negroid element.

Um, not to sound snarky, but isn't the fact that this page is constantly welled up in controversy more or less exemplative proof that there is in fact a controversy? That seems pretty obvious to me. - Che Nuevara 21:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

by "there is no controversy", we obviously mean "there is no controversy in citeable academic mainstream". Of course there can be controversy about anything at all among random anonymous internet users. This isn't what we are doing on Wikipedia. You can debate about the colours of the Ancient Egyptians on Usenet to your hearts' content, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. There is still no evidence that this is anything other than a 'dispute' between afrocentrist crackpots and white supremacist crackpots. dab (ᛏ) 08:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DIDN'NT WANT TO DO THIS

I DIDNT WANT TO WRITE A WHOLE ARTICLE But you people leave me no choice your entire concept of race is borderline dilusional.PEOPLE ARE THE SAME!! There are minor physical diffrences and MAJOR cultural diffrences however the diffrence between poeple is akin to having two cars that are the same make model and year with diffrent color schemes and diffrent upholstery.All people vary from one another individually some people have genetic traits that someone half way around the world may have.there are some "black" people with naturally reddish or brown hair some "whites" with curly or evan kinky hair and not necesarrilly because of "race- mixing"what ever that means .All modern thinking people originated in Africa as they moved away from africa their physical traits changed but essentially what mattered the brain design the opposable thumb the reasoning capabilities what makes man, man stayed the same the way we think see and absorb food,knowlege,pleasure,and pain is the same.the way we communicate with words and symbols the same just diffrent forms.Imean did anyone ever seriously contemplate why are there pyramids all over the world and in every continent and built around the same era.It wasnt aliens !its just the plain and simple fact that people basically all around the world THINK THE SAME WAY !its always the obvious awnser thats hardest to grasp.To say one is caucasian and one is negro is outdated its like believing the earth is flat.All peoples that populate the earth today can trace their genetic parents to two people that lived some 20000 yrs or so ago are descendants of two people and they were african.So when u ask if the egyptians were european or african the awnser is moot.all people all societies all civilizations are esentially african.

[edit] I might be the only one who realizes...

That comparing pictures of TODAY'S Egyptians to make a statement about the racial characteristics of the people who inhabited that land some 2,000 YEARS ago is not accurate at all.

[edit] delete, move or merge?

you have been discussing this for a year now, and there is still no evidence that this is even debated in Egyptology? I am afraid the only category this can be in is "Afrocentrism". Of the four titles in the "bibliography", one is the afrocentrist book under debate, while one is a treatise on afrocentrism, and the other two are just on egyptology in general. The article body is unreadable rambling on race and egyptology in general, without pinpointing any actual debate. The article seems desperate to imply that afrocentrists are somehow accepted part of egyptology, without of course being able to state this up front. There can well be an account of afrocentrist positions on Wikipedia, but they should be honest, and declared as part of US politics and sociology, not Egyptology. Filling pages re-iterating material that belongs on race and pan-africanism doesn't make things better. You don't have to elucidate the background of the "debate", this is covered elsewhere. You have to pinpoint, concisely, the points made wrt mainstream Egyptology. I can click on race if I want to know details on the concept, alright? Cutting down all the tangential rambling, the material on this article would be maybe good for a page or two. dab (ᛏ) 08:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hyksos from "southeast Asia"?

This is probably only a minor mistake but the article states... "Such distinctions became salient at various points in Egyptian history, most notably when the Hyksos, a foreign people from southeast Asia, invaded, occupied, and ruled Egypt between 1674 and 1548 BCE." I can only assume this is a mistake, as Southeast Asia is a hell of a long way from Egypt, I guess Southwest Asia was what was meant, so I've put that in instead. --Hibernian 15:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why dont images be added

Why dont images showing the Africaness of Ancient Egyptians be added? There so many, one showing the same hairstyle in Africa today, the ones of the smashed broad noses, etc---Halaqah 22:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] from the "a controversial perspective" section

The following is probably orgininal research added by a Wikipedian who disagreed with the cited material. It is likely that a peer reviewed source has actually taken issue with source in question, in which case that should be cited. But the following is unacceptable in both form and tone: savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 01:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

"Such views are, in fact, an oversimplification of the Afrocentrist paradigm. Afrocentrists contend that there are unifying cultural threads among the indigenous, black cultures of Africa, including dynastic Egypt; that among them there is interrelatedness — not homogeneity. Further, Afrocentrists repeatedly have recognized the inherent biodiversity of black peoples. They, in fact, do not contend that all Africans are the same physically and assert that all indigenous Africans (excluding here the Berbers of the Maghreb), including the ancient Egyptians, are and were black peoples. They take issue with those who seek to affix a Caucasoid phenotypical or racial designation, one with its origin in European geography and commonly associated with whites, to describe blacks who do not fit the narrow parameters of the classic, equatorial Negroid phenotype. They argue, it is, in fact, Eurocentrists who refuse properly to acknowledge the physical diversity of black African peoples.

Afrocentrics also point out that there is no rush to "claim" Egypt, while ignoring other African, or even other black, contributions to world history and world civilization. The acknowledgement of one black civilization does not diminish the significance of another. While the contentiousness of the debate regarding the racial identity of dynastic Egypt may have a higher profile than other fields of study, the ancient Nilotic civilizations of Egypt and Sudan are merely one focus of some Afrocentrist historians. Afrocentrist scholarship, in fact, seeks to treat the contributions of all African peoples worldwide."

[edit] Title

I changed the title of this article to remove "controversy over." If there was (or could be) an article for "racial characteristics of ancient Egyptians" and a subarticle for "controversy over..." then the old title would have been OK, but in this situation I think the shorter title is preferable. This article doesn't just cover the controversy, it's about the racial characteristics of ancient Egyptians in general (assuming there are any facts in this area which aren't controversial). savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 01:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The man who wrote this article doesn't know the Egyptian language. It would be better for him to ask for help than to write anything crossing his mind! KMT-NIWT means "black village", "black town", "black country" in accordance with the determinative: "village with cross-roads" (Allan Gardiner, "Egyptian Grammar", Oxford: Griffith Institute, Ashmolean Museum, 2001, p. 498, O 49). In this regard, Gardiner is wrong translating this graphic as "the black (land)". The determinatives for land are in N 21, N 22, N 23, N 24... of his own Grammar! These determinatives, indeed, are also used for designating as well inhabited regions, but 0 49 never for land. One can also have a look to pages 31, 32, 33 of Gardiner's "Egyptian Grammar" where "Generic determinatives" are listed. Another thing, correct please your translation of KMT-RMT. It doens't mean as you say "people of Kemet", "people of the black land". Where do you see in the hieroglyphs the determinative of land? KMT-RMT means Black people, Negroes "les Nègres" (Aboubacry Moussa Lam, "De l'origine égyptienne des Peuls", Paris: Présence Africaine / Khepera, 1993, p. 181). Please stop this joke of making fun of Black people and of their legacy. (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).

[edit] egypt

I think it would be best to dicuss what has been proven and accepted as being true about the ancient egyptians in the mainstream community than instead of writing about histories of racism and fringe theories/speculation.

In other words, this article should be about the ancient egyptians themselves

Agreed, but any article specifically on the racial characteristics of the ancient Egyptians inevitably must include historic controversies, whether it be the now discredited "Hamitic Hypothesis" of various European writers past, or the current theories of Afrocentrism. The same need not be true if one is just doing a generic article on "Egyptians". There are numerous books taking this generic approach, covering lifestyle, death, rituals, economy, politics etc without even touching any racial angles. Most mainstream references acknowledge the racial complexity of North Africa and Egypt. Problems arise when people want to slap rigid categories on everything, or use catch-all categories like "Mediterranean" or "Middle Eastern". or to use the ancient Egyptians to score points in whatever political battle is being fought at the moment. A balanced approach is the best way to go.

Your concept of "mainstream community" is a nonsense. It is being put forward by Eurocentrist scholars in order to impose their falsifications as truths. Afrocentrist scholars, by the means of reason, are challenging these dishonest people who, in constructing and spreading lies about ancient Egypt, are really commiting crimes against humanity. "Bisogna usare il cervello", say the Italians! (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).

[edit] Some complaints......

Hello, article monitor Teth 22 here, anyways, I haven't been to the article in quite a while, but I was expecting it to be overrun (rather overedited) by white supremacists and medicintrists, but instead it's not in THAT BAD of a shape, I really like how it shows how Egyptian civilization was wholly indigenous in culture and development, and how the "Civilizing Race From mesopotamia" theory is pretty much put to the grave :). And nice job to whoever made the section on saharan v.s. sudanic influences, which region had the strongest influence?, the 64'000 $ question!!! But I think the sahara/sudan influences section shouldn't belong in this article, it should belong in the predynastic egyptian one, the objective of this article is to merely confirm the african origins of the world's first nation-state, we don't have to get that deep into the details ;). And for the anthropology section, what happened to the link that showed analysis of the 17-20th dynasty royal mummies, that was a vital source! Get back to me... Peace. Teth22 16:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The Sahara-Sudanic section shows that Egypt was peopled by folks moving up from the South not Mesopotamia, the Mediterranean or elsewhere. It should stay because it establishes the link of Egypt with peoples further South, rather than the Mediterraneans bringing civilization theory so often advanced. It may not be really necessary to determine whether the Sudan or the Sahara had the greatest percentage of influence. That is unknowablein any case from the evidence available. That being said, the PreDynastic article can use some building up. It is thin on many details. Some info here can be modified and copied over. As for the Anthro section, the only thing in there before the last series of edits was stuff on deemphasizing race, which duplicates a quote by Cazvilli Czorza. Whoever moved the comparison on the mummies, it wans't me.Enriquecardova 19:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, thank you for responding :). Nice to see the article is in finally good hands, now where the hell are deeecevoice and yom, or they busy, or have they just said "fuck it" and left the article by its lonesome? But yes the predynastic egyptian article does need some work, especially the misleading part about lower egypt influencing upper egypt instead of the real truth, which is the latter. And didn't egypt have agriculture thousands of years before the badarian, but then had a hiatus coinciding with the dopopulation of the valley? Get back to me. Peace. Teth22 21:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I cant remember seeing anything about a 1000 year previous agricuture and then a hiatus. The early sites show hunter gatherers, but as time went on they progressed to plant and animal domestication including cattle. This progress continued all the way into the Dynastic era. The depopulation thing may allude to the drying up of the Sahara over several millenia, which created a barrier of sorts. Before that it was lush and green. Earlier histories see the Sahara pushing the Negroid stocks back to the south, while more advanced Mediterranean, Near Eastern and Caucasoid types took over up north. Such theories have been discredited by the evidence on the ground whcih show a movement of the southern folk up to the Nile Valley, not a movement down. And the movement and material progress up was part of a continuation of the indigenous culture, not an influx of outsiders. Of course the drying Sahara did eventually make movement more difficult, and did eventually become a significant barrier, but that was over millenia, and more than enough "southern" folks were already in place to become part of the Badarian culture and to conquer the North and unify Egypt under the 1st dynasty. And that barrier operated more than just to the south. It would affect Berber peoples moving in from the West as well, with the people already in place working out their own "mix"Enriquecardova 07:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cultural links

Ah, yeah, and you should also work on the cultural section of Ancient Egypt, do you see any major cultural resemblance between egypt and near eastern polities? The way the section is worded seems to indicate that. Get back to me. Peace. Teth22 16:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

good question. It could depend on the time period you pick. if you take the greek and roman or arab time periods, or the time of ancient foreign invasions and wars with other nations a case could be made that way. There was also a lot of trade and cultural contact depending also on the time period. For the early phases though it appears that heavy cultural linkage is found with the sudanic/saharan peoples, and this goes into the dynastic period. This does not rule out links with berbers to the north, but the trail is heavy to the south. Egypt also did things a lot differently from some of the near eastern nations, as in distinctive pyrmids, writing, religion etc. That is why the dynastic race theory of outside people coming to civilize the natives has been discredited. My own take is that the Egyptians were a mix of people already in the ground, like todays hispanics from day one. They wouldnt fit into conventional race classifications of the uS, because the original mix was a mix to begin with. they do serve to illustrate however that the black gene pool does not stop somewhere at the congo zone, which is common practice with the carefully drawn narrow definitions, but includes a whole range of types. what they are called "offically" will never be solved. folks speak of moving beyond labels and I agree as long as the whole picture is put on the table.Enriquecardova 17:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I would like to come back to (sub)section "Names for ancient Egypt as a source for racial classifications". It contains mistakes. KMT-NIWT means "Black Country" or "Black Town". And KMT-RMT means "Black People". Aboubacry Moussa Lam from Senegal has written about those hieroglyphs which are quite clear to people who studied the Egyptian language. The (sub)section is misleading. (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).

Yeah Enriquecardova, I feel ya on the last part, you ever see the "racial" illustration of Africa in Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs, and Steel", apparently the region from Tunisia to fucking Mogadishu was, well, white.... Anyways, when I say cultural links I mean the culture from the predynastic to right before the state lost its indepedence (that's the 26th dynasty right?), so the times afterwards, when Egypt was overrun by foreigners like a blunt line at a Bob Marley concert, don't count ;). And I don't see any major cultural influences from Berbers, although they were Africans as well. And I see the only cultural influences in the predynastic coming from the Sahara and the Sudan, so it would be south as well as west, babe. And what do you mean "mixed from the beginning" I really don't see evidence for an even notable migration of foreigners (for this case's sake, non-blacks) until middle kingdom times, and even then it didn't affect the mass of the population, things really started to step up during the 26th dynasty, with welcomed (by the Pharaohs) migrations from the Near East (especially Greece, basically Egypt's only good friend during this period) and of course successive invasions.... So... get back to me.. Peace. Teth22 03:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I hear you. All good questions. The more you dig into the subject the more stuff seems to arise. From what I see you can't rule out the Berber types in the mix. Of course the BErbers themselves aren't "pure", example the Tedas. You can rule out sweeping invasions from the North and the Middle East (save for the much later periods), but one possible path of significant Berber and other movement is from the West, through Libya, and parts of the Sahara. Population movements of these folks to Nile Valley seem to be LATER than the Saharan-Sudanic elements already in place, per the new section I added on the Sahara. But even in Libya you get a mix, Negroids, etc(see Italian excavation). Info that I see is very light on the Berbers, but if there is more data out there, I am sure others will add. By the time of the 26th Dynasty however, with so many new invaders etc, plus earlier invasionsof the Hyksos, plus the even later Greek and Roman incursions, the scene changes. But from the early phases, the fundamental "peeps" (whatever % mix they were) didnt change much. What section of Jared Diamond talks about that you reference? I'll have to look it up. Enriquecardova 20:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More on names egyptians called themselves

Anyone have more examples or web links to egyptian language that show what names the Egytians called themselves? Enriquecardova 04:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Reflecting on the way the Egyptians called themselves, Lam wrote: "En réalité, ces quelques remarques ne font que confirmer une appartenance ethnique sur laquelle les anciens Egyptiens eux-mêmes n'ont laissé aucun doute. En effet, ils se sont qualifiés de noirs à travers le collectif clair et sans équivoque 'kmt rmT' kmt. Ce collectif se décompose comme suit: kmt, féminin de km (qui nous l'avons déjà vu, signifie noir), est déterminé par un homme et une femme, les trois traits qui viennent après étant la marque du pluriel. En clair, cette manière d'écire, qui est absolument conforme à la règle régissant la formation des noms collectifs, signifie que Kmt s'applique à une collectivité (les trois traits qui marquent le pluriel l'attestent) composée d'hommes et de femmes (l'homme et la femme accroupis le prouvent). Le scribe pouvait-il être plus explicite dans sa volonté de montrer qu'il entendait donner à sa graphie le sens de "les Noirs"? Non, pense à juste titre Cheikh Anta Diop. Le tableau des races de la tombe de Ramsès III est une autre preuve de l'appartenance des anciens Egyptiens à la race noire" (Aboubacry Moussa Lam, "De l'origine égyptienne des Peuls", Paris: Présence Africaine / Khepera, 1993, p. 262). The hieroglyphs are mentionned where I wrote 'kmt rmT'. I am sorry for not being able to write the hieroglyphs in a web page. Actually, according to some Afrocentrist scholars like Lam, this debate does not really make sense because there is a complete agreement between the way the Egyptians called themselves and the way they represented themselves. The painting of the ethnic groups in the tomb of Ramses III is without ambiguity on the balckness of the Egyptians and the Nubians. The problem, according to me, comes from Eurocentric scholars who want to dissect the African people into pieces: "négroïde, bantouïde, pygmoïde". But aren't they all of them Black people? (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).

Mr. Enriquecardova, this web site: www.geocities.com/wally_mo/ can be useful for knowing and understanding the way the ancient Egyptians called themselves. (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).

[edit] Page move

I notice a lot of back and forth moving. First, both of you need to be aware of WP:3RR. Second, at this point a move back the original title makes sense as this article has never reached NPOV for more than 24 hours before it gets re-filled with all manner of POV material from either side. There has been an improvement to be sure, but I have raised several issues with some of the claims presented here on Talk:Ancient Egypt. The move at any rate was done unilaterally without discussion, so I believe moving it back to the original title is appropriate. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 05:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Silly debate

This whole Egyptian race debate is quiet silly and seems to be motivated by racism. The wide scientific consesus is that Egyptians were of mix race white people and black people in the broadest sense of the words. The best proof of this is well modern Egyptians, some look black some look white but most look in between. Sometimes Egypt had black pharaohs sometimes they had white pharaohs but most of the times it had mixed race pharaohs. When I watched the discovery channel attempt to discover the race of ancient Egyptians it brought no surprise. They essentially descibed the area from Westward of Jordan and South of Syria as the meeting point of races. This includes Egypt.

What you have is some americans and europeans but mostly americans on this site saying that ancient egyptians were only black because of the one drop rule. Well if your country still uses the one drop rule then Egyptians would be classifed as black because they do have black ancestry. However that would ignore that most egyptians also have white ancestry and are of mixed race. As a reaction to this you have many people who get upset that people claim Egyptians are only black so they do the opposite and claim they are only white. I think it is time the groups mend fences because the truth is every Egyptian views themself as neither black or white but as arab, as silly as it may seem. Although Arab is not a race I understand why they call themselves this. For the same reason mexicans call themselves spanish as opposed to mixed white and indian. There doesn't appear to be much glory in calling yourself a mixed race because it suggest you have no identitity.

Nevertheless the racial charactweristics of ancient egyptians is a fruitless debate because even if all ancient egyptians looked black as tar, because often mixed race children come out more dark look if one of the parents is very dark, it would not change the fact that they were of mixed race. And also vice versa, every egyptian could have been blond and blue eyed but it wouldn't change the fact that they were mixed. Any opnion that deviates from egyptians mixed race is simply that, an opnion and a poor one at it.

Sir, I appreciate your desire to bring the controversy to a reasonable end, and to make a balanaced and fair article. But I think you, similar to alot of liberal eurocentrists (I'm NOT calling you one) greatly exaggerate the degree of admixture in the Ancient Egyptians. The only real significant mixing occured around the Delta region (Giza, Memphis, etc.), and even then it didn't really step up till the late dynastic, with large foreign settlement (pharaonically approved of course, see 26th dynasty) in the region. See studies by Keita, where the late dynastic gizeh series plots in between african and european series, so it is essentially "mixed race" (don't like using the word mulatto) to put it in your words. Thanks for your input, though. Get back at me if you have any questions. Peace. Teth22 03:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Well there is disagreement, and that is fine. I think the article gives the Afrocentric view a fair hearing, particularly the "objections to how classifications are drawn section." A look at the literature reveals many areas of concern, including selective handling or classification of certaintypes of remains and broad category "lumping" with others. This is part of the history of scholarship in the area. To avoid any question of POV, a mainstream scholar who has reviewed the literature is quoted. In fact even Afrocentric critics such as Yurco note the presenceof the 'Aryan model" and other problems. At the same time, mainstream scholars also get a fair hearing to present their case of a mix of types. This includes the Berbers and the Libyan side as noted in the article. It also includes what you mention about the later centuriesof ancient Egypt, where large foreign migrations or invasions changed the peopling. The information is beng put out there so readers can check the quotes and references for themselves, and so be more informed. Enriquecardova 01:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Why all those warnings on the front page? This article is more neutral than its French counterpart. On the contrary the latter is treated pretty well! Is somebody disturbed to learn that the ancient Egyptians were Black people? "Facts are bitter"! "Wikipedia" must know that neutrality doesn't mean concealing the truth in order to please a certain category of people. (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).

Well, looks like a double standard at play.