Talk:Continuity Irish Republican Army

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[edit] Second Dáil

The Second Dáil was not legally an 'all-Ireland' parliament. Its membership was technically chosen in the election to the House of Commons of Southern Ireland chosen under the Better Government of Ireland Act, 1920. Politicians elected to the House of Commons of Northern Ireland were allowed to sit, but their full status was disputed. The Second Dáil ceased to exist in 1922 and has had no relevance whatsoever to modern Irish history, nor has anyone who sat in it. The people of Ireland, north and south, having been electing TDs, MPs, MLAs, etc for over eighty years. Continuity Sinn Féin's claim to legitimacy, based on a long gone parliament whose membership is long dead is plain ludicrous, but then that is what the 99% of the people of the island of Ireland think Continuity Sinn Féin is, a ludicrous bunch of non-entities who could be laughed at if they stopped thinking that they had a right to 'kill for Ireland', when Ireland has in every single election held in living memory had said the opposite. Of course the real reason this rediculous continuity 'movement' don't contest elections is that in reality they'd have a snowballs chance in hell of ever getting elected to anything. JTD

Agreed Blorg 21:09, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
These comments are not appropriate to this talk page, for the same reason User:Kyle's comments are inappropriate to Talk:Million Dollar Baby. Joestynes 07:38, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Correction its Republican Sinn Féin.

[edit] CIRA should redirect to Canadian Internet Registration Authority

I propose that CIRA redirects to Canadian Internet Registration Authority. Upon doing a google search for CIRA, I found that the Canadian Internet Registration Authority was first on the list.

I might have missed it, but I couldn't find the continuity irish republican army among the first 10. To the best of my knowledge, CIRA is more commonly used for the Canadian Internet Registration Authority than the Continuity Irish Republican Army. I'm fine with making CIRA a disambiguation page. -Frazzydee|✍ 23:54, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'd go with a disambiguation page. Neither has predominance. Joestynes 00:29, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Splits

The Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) is an Irish Republican paramilitary organisation from which the Provisional IRA split in 1986 in a dispute over the attendance of the elected representatives of Sinn Féin

This is POV, and a minority POV at that. Although Republican theology is necessarily obscure, any reasonable observer would hold that the CIRA split from the Provos rather than the other way around, as the CIRA represented at best a tiny minority of IRA members. --Ryano 10:45, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 1986 or 1998?

The current edit reads The Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) is an Irish Republican paramilitary organisation which, although it split from the Provisional IRA in 1986 in a dispute over the attendance of the elected representatives of Sinn Féin (the political party affiliated to the Provisional IRA) at Dáil Éireann (the lower house of parliament of the Republic of Ireland), remained a part of that organisation until the latter's endorsement of the Belfast Agreement in 1998.

The CIRA may not have been heard of much before the Provo ceasefire etc., but I don't believe they remained part of the Provisionals until 1998. Are there any sources to back this up? --Ryano 18:27, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The CIRA did not claim responsibility for any attacks after the split until a bombing at a hotel in Enniskillen in 1996. I find it hard to believe they sat back until then. Despite the disagreement between the political wings, there was no differences in the approach to the conflict itself until the Belfast Agreement negotiations. There was no reason to leave the Provos before that. I believe that they were more of an informal group within the PIRA during this period, rather than a separate entity in their own right.
Lapsed Pacifist 18:46, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
But the political split in 1986 was very definite and very acrimonious, although by all accounts very few of the splitters were active members of the IRA. I think their operational weakness is a better explanation for the lack of activity, rather than a decision to stay within the Provos. After the Provo ceasefires of 1994 and 1997 there was a reason for disaffected active members to align themselves with the CIRA, hence the commencement of operations. In any case, unless there's any source to say that they remained within the PIRA, I think that we should date them back to 1986, perhaps with a proviso that the name didn't come into use until 1996. They don't use the name "Continuity IRA" themselves in any case, believing themselves to be the IRA. They have used "Continuity Army Council of the IRA", which is where the moniker came from. --Ryano 19:02, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The split concerned Sinn Féin tactics, not those of the IRA. RSF (and the IRA men who backed them) had no problem with the way the IRA was going about its business, and supported it until the ceasefires. I just can't see these guys taking a ten-year break.
Lapsed Pacifist 19:18, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)


I've just been reading the RSF view here [1], it appears to support what you were saying earlier, especially the part about the prisoners segregating themselves. It would be interesting to find out what those men decided to do afterwards. I agree the CIRA Army Council became a reality in 1986, and began sourcing arms and finance. What I can't find out is whether active IRA men left the Provisionals and stayed inactive until 1996, or whether they decided to throw in their lot with them for the time being. Any light you could throw on this would be welcome.
Lapsed Pacifist 19:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Although it's hard to pinpoint when the group came into existence, I haven't come across any source which suggests that the CIRA "remained within" the PIRA until the late 1990s, although some sources (e.g) do say that the group was formed in 1994. The truth may be that the split in 1986 was only notional, and only became a reality when active members aligned themselves with RSF/CIRA after the 1994 ceasefire, but I'd like to find some sources before we make such a suggestion in the article --Ryano 20:00, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
(By the way, I hope you don't mind me indenting your comments, I just find it easier to follow this way)

[edit] CIRA POV

This article was written by one of Republican Sinn Fein's armchair warriors. It needs to be cleaned up considerably, because right now it is essentially CIRA propaganda. The Politics.ie wikipedia has a far more balanced article on the Contos, which could serve as an example of how to approach the subject. Just a small example of the article's bias: note that they call the RIRA the "Real" IRA, because they view that organization as late-comers at best and opportunists at worst. mbari hogun

The latest revision certainly was, rolling it back to the previous version should do the trick. --Ryano 5 July 2005 10:29 (UTC)
I know from my experience on wiki.politics.ie that the person or persons who are seeking to impose the CIRA POV on this article is/are very persistent. If anyone with rollback powers is watching this article, please be alert. --Ryano 8 July 2005 09:38 (UTC)
The most recent edit shows what I'm talking about, I'm afraid this article is doomed unless an admin takes an interest in it. --Ryano 8 July 2005 16:33 (UTC)
I blame Risteard. mbari hogun

[edit] Considers itself

I note that Jayjg has protected this page. May I just ask for an opinion on the definition of NPOV? The |Irish Defence Forces are termed as Óglaigh_na_ hÉireann in Irish law. As illustrated, it is on the cap badge worn by every soldier in the Irish army The Continuity Irish Republican Army is a terrorist organisation of perhaps a hundred members. They decide to call themselves “Óglaigh_na_ hÉireann” I edited the article to read: “However there is only one Óglaigh na hÉireann – it is the Irish Defence Forces. “ This was amended and now reads: “and Óglaigh na hÉireann is the Irish language name of the Irish Defence Forces, which considers itself to be the sole legitimate "Irish army".”

My question to you is: does NPOV require us to ignore legal accuracy? Imagine saying: “the United States Army considers itself to be the sole legitimate Army of the United States” “considers itself”? Just asking your opinion--ClemMcGann 19:50, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, the CIRA do not accept the legitimacy of the legislature which passed this law, so you're trying to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps here. I agree with you that "considers itself" is too weak a phrase though. How about "..which under the Constitution of Ireland is the sole legitimate Irish Army"? Demiurge 23:24, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Ok, --ClemMcGann 01:57, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Both the 217.* edits and the reverts are no where near to NPOV. We need to include a good portion of what the 217.* editor said, but in the form of The CIRA/supporters belive that... For example the 'official army' issue, we cannot pass judgement on whether the cuurents 26 county elected governments army is the 'official' army, as opposed to one that claims decedence from the 1921 32 county dail. If even a tiny minority believe something, its a POV matter not one of fact. The fact that weve got an editor here which clearly has this POV, thats enough for me to consider it a POV that cannot just be dismissed. We cannot even ignore the edits about the provos having branched from the CIRA not the other way around, I don't have very good information about the exact details of high level internal IRA affairs, and I don't think anyone else here does, and if they do, they can't prove it, so that means we can't say which one branched from the other, as the only evidence either way is names, the provos kept the same name, so that would suggest they are the truck while CIRA is the branch, but according to the 217.* editor they lost there legitimacy by supporting a government which they claim to be illegitmate, and claims they are not the official army, thus making themselves unable to claim to be official from the last all ireland election (at least thats what I got from it). I'm not sure if thats what 217.* was getting at, but I think its got enough of a argument to be a matter of POV, so I think we gotta have a he thinks she thinks thing the CIRA claim/believe that the PIRA branched from them... while the PIRA claim that the CIRA branched from them, we just gotta clean that up, its alot of work, but someone needs to write a true NPOV article.

Please read W:NPOV#Qualification again. Even though some people (a tiny minority) believe the Earth to be flat, that POV should not be given equal billing in the Earth article. The CIRA's claims that they are the legitimate government of Ireland and that the Provos split from them have about as much basis in reality as the flat-earthers. It's pure fantasy, barely a step above alien abductions and UFO conspiracies. We should describe these claims, yes, but we shouldn't try to pretend that they are of equal validity to more mainstream POVs. Demiurge 00:41, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
I didn't say it should be given equal validity, simply that it couldn't be ignored, especially since you can't prove the claims either way The official IRA position for years was, "In 1938 the seven surviving faithful Republican Deputies delegated executive powers to the Army Council of the I.R.A. as per the 1921 resolution. In 1969 the sole surviving Deputy, Joseph Clarke, reaffirmed publicly that the then Provisional Army Council and its successors were the inheritors of the first and second Dail as a Provisional Government." The public doesn't know what happened in the 1986 split, so we can say only a minority belive these things, but we cannot write the majority opinion as fact.
Excuse me, the public does know what happened in the 1986 split:
  • The CIRA/RSF were the ones who physically walked out
  • The Provisionals retained the organization's name
  • The Provisionals retained most of the organization's membership
  • The Provisionals retained all of the organization's assets
All this means that the CIRA/RSF split from the Provos, not the other way round. Demiurge 09:17, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
So that means we have the power to judge the legitimacy of these 'facts'? All we can do is present both POV's and mention the facts on the opinion of the majority.

I'm fine with the "..which under the Constitution of Ireland is the sole legitimate Irish Army" formulation. My POV problem is with the unnecessary suggestion that CIRA and Provo use of the name "Irish Republican Army" is illegitimate. That struck me as unnecessary POV, even though I agree that these theories of succession from the Second Dail are total poppycock - which is why I'm one of the people reverting the edits of our anonymous CIRA sympathiser. It's just that the whole question of who is legitimate is always POV, and should always be presented as something like X claims that X is legitimate and Y is not; while Y sees it the opposite way.

To answer the original question, no, Wikipedia does not have to differ to legal accuracy on matters of pure symbolism. What is legal depends on what one takes to be legitimate, and legitimacy is intrinsically POV.

As for the administrator protection, the real issue here is a single anonymous user who has not engaged in any discussion here on the talk page and whose edits are transparently and unacceptably POV. Those who are actually here seem able to deal with disputes. What is the procedure in a case like this? With a non-anonymous user, it goes to dispute resolution, but what is to be done with an anonymous user? --Diderot 10:49, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that I know this anonymous user as a contributor to politics.ie and a former contributor to wiki.politics.ie. He is very persistent, utterly immune to any appeals to reason, and will not allow himself to acknowledge the existence of a POV other than his own and that of his clique. On wiki.politics.ie, he refused to create an account, and when the wiki stopped accepting edits from anonymous users (to prevent wikispam), he simply left in a huff. Superior patience may be the only answer. --Ryano 15:49, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Refiling request

Could an admin please change the tag to {{cleanup-date|June 2005}}? -- Beland 02:36, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Did it myself, now that I've been made an admin. -- Beland 22:51, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 1986 / 1998

The CIRA's believed political wing, Republican Sinn Fein was formed in 1986, although the Continuity IRA is thought to of not formed, or not became active until 1998.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jah69uk (talk • contribs).

Not true. It was the Cokes who were formed around 1997/1998 as a split from the Provisionals. Óglaigh na hÉireann (CIRA) have continuity from 1916 and as such did not discontinue in 1986.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.143.62.147 (talk • contribs).

[edit] New Group

If anyone has information on this new group calling itself Oglaigh na hEireann could they please add it to this page rather than the actual Oglaigh na hEireann page

Heard there is a new group called Republican Defence Association.Not sure but this could be the splinter group the IMC was referring to.Dermo69

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