Talk:Contemporary art

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I think this is a hopeless title. 'Today's art' will not be today's art at any time in the future you care to pick. Indeed the art of the 1960s is already not today's. Suggest moving to Art of the late 20th century. Filiocht 10:11, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sure, I agree, but we're not creating terms here, just defining them. As far as I'm aware the term 'contemporary art' does, in popular culture, refer to art from around the 60s/70s and onwards, and, yes, current art too. I imagine people started to have the same problem with the name modern art when it was referring to both the current art of the time and art from the late 19th century, too. (And I imagine that's why the new phrase of contemporary art came into existence.) But I'm pretty sure this naming convention is as it is in the art world, and therefore how it should be on Wikipedia too. I think we should leave it as it is. --Chopchopwhitey 08:45, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Agree with Chopchopwhitey. Contemporary art is a very widespread term, used in many museums and institutions' names, subject of many courses at universities, appearing in a lot of professional literature, and it does refer to "60s till now". Sure, our idea about what it is, will change in, say, 10 years, but the very nature of Wikipedia should enable us to keep pace with that. --Spinster 16:05, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Neutrality

So where's the discussion on neutrality? Who nominated it? Of course, you are correct; this article does not have a neutral POV. But the reason is that it is completely unfinished and a huge mess as well. Before we worry about the POV let's at least get the article to a point where it makes a bit of sense!

I'm not the one who tagged this article, but I thought I'd point out some of the more glaring instances of POV (some of which seems intended to mislead the reader). Emphasis is added to highlight the most objectionable parts.
  1. In the "History" section, "Although Duchamp's most famous works predate the postmodern era by about 50 years, his avant-garde criticality of traditional notions and methods for making art can be seen as closely connected to ideas surrounding contemporary art. One case in point, Duchamp painted few painting after 1912 apparently because he had decided that paint was no longer a viable or relavant artistic media. Duchamp's forward thinking denial of painting was again declared in the 1970s by Conceptualist and other avant-garde artists." The term "avant-garde" is misleadingly complimentary; Duchamp's opinion seems to be presented as fact.
  2. In the "Theories of Contemporary Art" section, "These sculptures therefore marked the end of any pretense that art had some essential and objectively discernible trait that separated it from non-art objects." Again, this statement assumes the fact that art is NOT essentially different from non-art, a statement which can easily be disputed.
  3. Again, in "Theories," "Similarly, Donald Kuspit has labelled contemporary practices that fail to demonstrate historically evidenced artistic qualities as post-art. He criticizes socially-oriented art, exemplified by the work of Rirkrit Tiravanija and Jeremy Deller, for replacing: high culture with mass appeal, autonomy with homogeneity, mystery with transparency, skill with chance creativity, dialectic with dialogue, and “refinement of the unconscious” with spectacle. In the last case, this reminds one of Michael Fried’s disdain for Minimalist theatricality as being an instance of heavy-handed rhetoric. For Kuspit, as well as Danto, artistic categorization “is possible only on the basis of working knowledge of the past...looking to the past for inspiration,” looking specifically to what “post-art” supposedly does not contain, which is beauty. Most emphatically, Kuspit laments the disappearance of the “sacred studio” and the move to the "noisy public street". First of all, legitimate criticism should be taken gracefully, not dismissed out-of-hand, particularly in an encyclopedia article. I propose that this should be added to a new section, "Criticism of contemporary art."
  4. Same section, "Historically, art was more closely aligned with aesthetic notions of beauty, purity and transcendence. It was identified with higher thoughts--not politics." This is simply untrue. Romanticism and realism are not considered contemporary, yet paintings from those periods are charged with images of war, poverty, etc.
  5. Same section, "It often engages a multi-disciplinary discourse, utilizing a diverse body of skills and peoples to ultimately engage the mass with a substantial, and sometimes provocative discourse pertaining to the relevant issues shaping the world right now. It is continually engaging, and affecting the boundaries of perception." Continually engaging, is it? This is pure opinion. In order for this to remain in the article, it should be clear that this is the INTENT, not the actuality.
  6. In the "Contemporary artists" section, "It is through this use of site-specificity that the artwork itself is given added depth and significance. Her choice of materials is also equally valuable..." Again, this is opinion, not fact.
I realize this article is a work in progress, but I hope these issues will be addressed. IrisWings 07:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well iriswings, I erased a lot of extra crap from the article (sorry I don't know the pro editor word for that), and I think that neutralized a lot of those issues. I think the article is geting closer to the point at which a critique of its neutrality may be useful, but it's better to make the changes than only to comment here... I think the critique of the section on Duchamp is right on. Care to clean it up? Flange P. Vibrator 03:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

lol "Erasing crap" is good enough. I agree that you have mitigated several of the issues I pointed out, though #2 is still of serious concern to me. I still think a criticism section would be a nice, balanced addition.
The reason I hesistate to edit this article is because I'm afraid I will pull it too far to the other POV. I may muck around a bit, but that will be the extent of it--no major edits from me on this subject. Sorry. IrisWings 08:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Structure

I've erased a few old irrelevant discussions here that had to do with text that's been edited out. Flange P. Vibrator 03:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I gather that there is supposed to be some sort of "special project" to organize this article (here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Contemporary_Art), but as far as I can tell there has been very little done. There is no reverse link to the page stating the ideals for this article, and the project outline is as disorganized as the article itself. The article is almost a parody of the contemporary art world; drifting from obsessive organization to complete tangential, off-the-top-of-the-head vaguisms, some random details that support no general thesis, and very little concrete information. It is really shocking how poor this article is considering how many brainiacs are interested in this topic. Or perhaps that's the problem? If I had to suggest a structure, it would be to create a section that focusses on groupings within contemporary art, organized by time, with a few well-chosen examples of artists in each grouping, and description of the ideas behind this grouping. These do not have to be too detailed, and we don't have to fight about the groupings, just a way to simplify the history of art since the end of the period labled modernism.

I made some changes, but they are really just a rough beginning, and I'm not sure how it will fare. I'm not a curator or critic and I can't write like one (though I would hope that this article will not use the sometimes difficult-to-understand language found in contemporary art literature...) But of course we need people with more expertise to fill out this article. I don't think we should merge this with "late 20th c. art" because there is clearly an idea "contemporary art", and I certainly think that "postmodern art" is a different article. I also think there is a difference between "contemporary art" and "art that is being made nowadays" (which is a bad title for an article...). If I could state a goal for this article, it would be to offer a very simplified, descriptive, and inclusive view of the major theories, trends and artists in contemporary art, with links to all the other pages that describe these trends in more detail. This way the article can function as a kind of nexus for these ideas, and a good starting point for a beginner. If you click around, you will notice many articles that relate to this topic, some of which are very well-written, but few of which are now linked. I think this article should include two large sections, a section on theory, and a section on movements/trends (which would include artists). The museum section also might fit. I think we should also have a list of contemporary artists. Does anybody know how to start a list-page? This will be a pretty long list. Perhaps the section on movements/trends could be divided into four sections 1 - movements that are argueable part of modernism such as Fluxus, 2 - movements that seem to come after and react to modernism in the late 60's and 70's that have a pretty clear ideological structure, such as land art, 3 - movements of the 80's and early 90's that seem to have a clear theory and decent-sized group of associated artists such as Neo-Expressionism, and 4 - artists working today in the kind of global art environment described in the intro. These are semi-arbitrary divisions, and I can't imagine an art critic being enthusiastic, but for the casual reader or student they would be a good starting point for a deeper exploration of the subject. Lastly, this "stucture" section doesn't seem to have any other comments that relate to structure. This article desperately needs structure! Let's keep things simple and and not include too many details before we have a clear organization. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Flange P. Vibrator (talk • contribs) 20:24, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

My big hope is that we will be able to get some IMAGES up here! After all, this is ART. Plus, the page is looking pretty dry.

The new section on "artists" is a good idea, but there is way too much detailed discussion of public art. This would be more appropriate in the public art article. Perhaps some of this info could be used as an example here, but it is too much. I like the idea of an "artists" heading, but I still think that the "trends" section should include examples of artists from each trend.Flange P. Vibrator 23:27, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] I'd like to take this one on

As a contemporary artist and modern and contemporary art instructor, this topic is near and dear to me. I think the article is way too verbose and would benefit from a fair amount of cutting. Many of the tangent topics are already covered (better) in other wikipedia articles. The format and headings of the modern art article can be used as a solid foundation.

Also, as far as listing contemporary artists, I think the shorter the list the better. A fair listing would be exhaustive, overwhelming and completely unnecessary. Readers simply need to be directed to the "contemporary artists" page. There are a few exemplary artists that should be included in the article, like Robert Smithson. But discussion should focus on specific ideas or approaches these artists introduced that developed contemporary art in general.

I would like to take this challenge on! It may take me a few weeks to get it organized and improved, but I don't think it's an impossible task. I will need and will greatly appreciate your support and input as I tackle this mountain. Thanks!

lonebiker 03:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Keep on trucking, biker. Flange P. Vibrator 03:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


Please help improve this article or section by expanding it.
Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion.

[edit] the neutrality in dispute will be near impossible to arrive at

as an "outsider" to what I see has become the hollow traditions of modern art and traditional art, my art was treated with anxiousness and unease at a contemporary art school. I personally don't think "modern art" is dead, and I don't see it as a movement. The current rhetoric about painting and sculpture is that the art object itself is dead. However "modern art" is over if that "modern art" is only an imitation of past modern art. My personal perception, although, it probably won't be unbiased enough for the article, but I'm merely posting for the consideration of another POV, one who understands the "inside" but isn't, is that in the official or academic fields of art what has become power to influence, and power to judge relevancy are actually very subjective and arbitrary standards, which are treated as intelligence, but which are, at least in my opinion, certainly not based on intelligence, but rather ability to posture. From my experience things which are out of the strict mean of contemporary of modern art, things which may even force a question on the accepted values are derided. The post-modern philosophy, is more of an anti-philosophy, sonce it regards wisdom or truth as non-existent. Therefore in order to establish objective standards art must conform to a predetermined sense of the current place in art history, as defined by contemporary or post-modern asscoiation or labels. Academic or traditionalist art seems to be identified with past ideas, and in fact any reference to the past is regarded as undermining the paradoxical verity of the post-modern spirit of the times. To turn the same engine of critique on themselves reveals what may be the ultimate paradox, that all such posturing is hypocritical, and merely acting. I incerely believe you've got no chance on making this article "neutral" since sources about this will inevitably most likely have biased language.

While I agree that almost any source will either over-praise or over-criticize modern art, I still think it's worthwhile to try to present a balanced viewpoint. Since you seem so critical of it, as I am, perhaps you can help by pointing towards some respected sources which criticize modern art in an unbiased way. (And by unbiased, I mean without petty, self-involved disputes.) IrisWings 21:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
It's true - the neutrality of this article will always be in dispute. But I think we should look upon that as a good thing. If we had one overarching definition of what art is... how boring that would be! But I think this article is a lot better than it was a few months ago. For a person who doesn't know anything about contemporary art, this is a half-way decent intro. If that is one of our goals, we still have a lot of work to do. I think we should look at the specifics - having a fuller list of artists, movements, info about theory etc. We should keep the overall article as simple, straitfwd and uncritical as possible to avoid despites. A sentence like "There is a museum called the Witney in New York" IS objective, and there is lots of missing INFORMATION in this article. Out job is to describe what a majority of people would understand contemporary art to be. I wish we could get more people interested!69.141.164.193 07:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
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