Talk:Conflict thesis

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I came across this because of a conflict over Andrew Dickson White. It seems to me that this article is very emotional and NPOV; historical thought is not even attempted to be understood and placed in context, but is judged on the basis of a few recent (and, after all, also not particularly 'canonical') works; the language is polemic rather than scholarly as well. Too bad, really, because the substance is not wrong. Perhaps someone detached can look at and edit this. Clossius 08:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

What do you see as emotional? I will agree that there is very little context, but if you look at the history, you will see it is a stub and only about 24 hours old. If you have some context, your contribution would be welcome, and if you have some language you think would be more neutral, please suggest it. Lindberg and Numbers have been collaborating on this topic for some time, and their work is what I would consider canonical on the subject. There are older works that give different interpretations of science-and-religion, like Merton, but L&N are among the first to address themselves directly to the history of the concept of conflict. Along with JB Russell of flat-earth fame. Maybe I do not understand what you mean by "canon" either. Maestlin 09:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Oops, it is more like 2 days old, but still... Have you read White BTW? If not you should, then you would learn what emotional, POV, polemic, unscholarly writing on the subject is really like. Maestlin 09:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that "it has come to be regarded as false by historians" is emotional,

Would you approve of something like the rewrite ragesoss has made on Andrew Dickson White?

Sure.

that "It retains great popularity among nonspecialists, and it is sometimes found in popular works on the history of science" is dismissive and patronizing,

At this point I am afraid there is no way I can rewrite this that you will not see as a problem, so I will ask if you would do it instead. The underlying idea I was trying to communicate is that full-fledged conflict interpretation may still be found today from time to time, but it is not at all likely to be found in the works of someone with academic credentials like history-of-science or science-and-religion-studies.

I'd simply say this neutrally, such as "It is still popular with a general audience" or something like that. In the current context, it seems to me that "nonspecialists" and "popular" are meant as dismissive, and I'm not wrong, am I?

that teh quote by L&N, which I indeed don't regard as gospel truth or even as a particularly successful book on the subject - and it is only one -,

I don't look on it as gospel truth myself, but you tossed out the word "canonical" and I guessed it might mean something like "a work you have to cite." What do you mean about canonical? What would you point to as an example in this subject? Would you consider it (or any book) gospel truth? Would you consider it successful? And what, BTW, does "successful" mean here? A bestseller? influential? accurate? something else?

Standard - you were right in guessing what I meant. And no, I would not consider any book gospel truth. ;-) (And I would not consider L&N successful, but that's indeed a matter of judgment.)

which claims that "White's impressive documentation gave the appearance of sound scholarship" is, both in the book and as a quote here, entirely polemical. I think it is very obvious that the prupose of the article is, contrary to that of what an encyclopedia article should do, not to understand and explain, but to criticize - while there is a section called "criticism", already the descriptive part is negative.

I pulled out that sentence because I wanted to get in the idea that Draper was widely read in the short run, and explain why he was being mentioned even though Prometheus does not carry his book (or didn't last time I checked), but I just didn't feel like putting a lot of work into it at the time. I can definitely see how the entire quotation is not a good idea here. What if it were cut to something like "because [of] White's impressive documentation. . . ." (ellipses would be put in the article; I'm not trying to be deceptive on this talk page)? I think it's worth mentioning the citations. Since it's something that has been mentioned to me more than once, I think readers see it as important and it explains part of the book's ongoing success.

What I am objecting to in this quote is the gratuitous remark, "impression of scholarship", which means that it is not really scholarship. I don't think, however, that the Warfare is a polemic dressed up with fake quotes, but that it is the result of genuine, serious scholarship. The earlier versions, manuscript, White's letters, etc., clearly show that. Whether it was successfully done or not, or whether it convinces today or not, is an entirely different question.

And the worst part is that there is no contextualization; any good history of science would try to understand what the role of the conflict thesis was at this point in time (and place), and what it accomplished then. Any good history of science realizes the context of science and science discourse, and an interpretive model like this cannot be simply dismissed cavalierly as "false by today's standards", which is perhaps the least interesting you could say.

There is almost no content of any sort at the moment, which is why it is marked as a stub. This was a "to-do" on the history of science wikiproject. I decided that it would be better to put up a little bit and give other editors something they could modify by bits, instead of spending months trying to write up a full-fledged article on my own. Yes, there should be some context for the 19th century authors. Yes, I planned to get to it someday, if nobody else did, but to do a decent job would take time and research for me because I don't know all that much about the era. It sounds like you have something pretty specific in mind. If you do, would you consider either writing it up or naming some relevant readings?

Nothing specific, but I fully accept your reasoning as regards the stubbiness of the article. The reason I commented at all is because I got here via the White entry.

Furthermore, you may also wish to consider why exactly White is still read today - there is obviously an interest in this kind of book precisely because the "enemy" seems to be, or actually is, still there - at least in certain parts of the world, and of certain countries. I wonder how one can understand interpretive models of science if one doesn't realize to which question they form the answer.

It is because' White is still read today that it is relevant to evaluate the quality of his scholarship in modern terms. Many readers of this article may have ideas about historical events drawn from the conflict model. The conflict model has an ongoing life, as you say, so a part of the article will be oriented towards current interpretations. Not to do so would, IMO, make the article irrelevant.

Not irrelevant, but "merely" historical, I'd say. ;-) But after all, I agree with you that the CT is still relevant and that this should be addressed here, and along the lines to say - only in neutral, and (as) objective (as possible) terms that take into account what is relevant when. After all, the reason you don't like the conflict thesis seems to be more one of degree than of principle, i.e. it wasn't as bad as White says it was.

That also explains why White was POV by your standards (and by mine as well), but he wasn't a Wikipedia author, but wrote a book that by the standards of his time was certainly good scholarship in documentation, that fulfilled a specific role, that had a demonstrable impact, and that strangely enough continues to draw attention today.

When he started the project, it may have been good scholarship, but by the time he published the final book? Wasn't the study of history in America copying the German model by that point?

Yes it was, and he of course was a very Germanized scholar; all his serious studies were done there, his academic-administrative merits are mostly in the adaption of the German university model for the US (Cornell, Stanford, Johns Hopkins etc.), and he was in close contact with the leading German historians of his time. And I think the Warfare is a very German book indeed - a dash late, perhaps, but still not out of place at this time.

And to answer the ad hominem rhetorical question: Yes, I have read White, the Warfare as well as his other books, and much of his papers. Not that this really matters, because the issue here is simply that of an encyclopedic contribution. Clossius 10:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I made a deliberate effort not to sound ad hominem, but I guess it didn't work. It was not a rhetorical question, and the conditional clause was genuine. Yes, things like that can matter. If you think I am being hostile or insulting to you, I will remove myself from further discussion, because it is not my intent. Maestlin 00:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Come on, in such a discussion you can't ask me whether I have actually read the book in question (of course I have!) and expect that I don't at least draw attention to the fact that this is an ad hominem remark in the very sense of the word (not about the argument, but about the person making it). Under the circumstances, I think the discussion here is still very civil, though, and I'm not insulted, especially I guess because I've actually read the book. ;-) Clossius 06:55, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

To keep this exchange simpler I will just copy from above:

I'd simply say this neutrally, such as "It is still popular with a general audience" or something like that. In the current context, it seems to me that "nonspecialists" and "popular" are meant as dismissive, and I'm not wrong, am I? (Clossius)

To me they are not dismissive. I used the phrase "popular works" deliberately, keeping in mind Cooter & Pumphrey's contrast between "science popularization" and "popular science." I tend to agree with their general point that what a lot of people do and think about science has nothing to do with what the "experts" think; if it does bear some relation, then popular use of the "expert's" work may be quite creative. A parallel with the study of history was in the back of my mind, and I take that nonspecialist audience quite seriously. But if it sounds dismissive and patronizing to you, it could strike other readers the same way.

I do feel a bit frustrated with the whole exchange, because you have criticized the sources mentioned and given me the impression that you think there are better ones, but refuse to name any. Maestlin 20:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Maestlin - I've followed your invite and paid a visit to this page. The article seems to be a discussion about what one or two authors have argued. Shouldn't it be more about the nature of the conflict thesis itself? How about a section listing all of the major disagreements between Science and Religion over the past 400 years? This would perhaps be more helpful than analysis of some authors views, and let people see what the conflict thesis is referring to. I'll happily start compiling a list if you want. This could then be expanded from a list to some useful information about these debates? Adrian Baker 23:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

• I have to agree with Maestlin on this one. I don't see anything "emotional" in this in the slightest, and don't think that pointing out that non-specialists are thought to be totally wrong on this by specialists is any more of a problem here than it is in science articles. Anyway, of course it could use some additional information, but that's the nature of all new articles. I don't see any substantial, much less substantiated, criticisms in the above. And I think Adrian's idea about listing conflicts completely misses the point, would be completely inappropriate for this page, and would border on original research. --Fastfission 01:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I second the opinion that a list of "major disagreements" between Science and Religion would be inappropriate to an article like this one, (that is mainly about Historiography). Maybe a list of "major agreements and disagreements" could be made in another article.

In addition, I think this article was more accurate before it’s introduction was changed in response to Clossius' complaints. To simply say that "many" historians of science and related academics no longer accept the conflict thesis is an understatement. I don’t know any contemporary historian of science that agrees with the warfare model, and many of them are actively working to show that this view was wrong. --Leinad ¬ »saudações! 02:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

That may well be, but whose problem is that? Can such an article really be the playing-ground of a sub-group of one scholarly discipline's current fashion, if indeed it even amounts to this? Especially if we consider such statements as "actively working to show that this view was wrong", which implies both that it is necessary to do so and that this is more of a 'political' issue than anything else. But suum cuique, and I have the impression that it really doesn't help to argue here, let alone cite. Clossius 04:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that this article should be the "playing-ground" to historians of science. I also don’t think that the article about dualism should be the "playing-ground" to philosophers, or that the article about genetics should be the "playing-ground" to biologists. Yet, in all of these articles, to ignore the specialists and make original research is nonsensical.

Ad-hominem attacks towards scholars will lead nowhere. Maybe the expression “actively working” has a stronger meaning than I originally though, (I’m not a native English speaker). But, even then, I don’t think it suggests what you say it does. --Leinad ¬ »saudações! 07:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Original research wasn't required, but a fair representation of scholarly literature while keeping in mind the relativity of one's own position... what amazes me most in this entire context is that historians of science, who first of all should be aware that their view is very likely to be overtaken in very short time, are so insistent that right know we know precisely, and with finality, what's going on. I think that if anyone is the victim of ad-hominem attacks against scholars, then it's Andrew D. White. I really don't get what's so wrong with some moderate, scholarly language. Clossius 12:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

None of the historians of science here have argued that they know "what's going on" -- they have all argued that they know more or less what the current expert opinion on this is. Now you can throw around empty phrases like "the relativity of one's own position" all you want (hey, I'm fine with it), but in the end the approach sanctioned by WP:NOR is to have Wikipedia serve as a summary of the secondary literature. It's an interesting epistemological experiment and we could all write books on what model of knowledge it implies or condones but in the end that's the policy. --Fastfission 04:03, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The question is only what constitutes an expert, and that is completely unrelated to NOR. But if "the relativity of one's own position" is an empty phrase (I really wonder how many historians of science would agree with that; I don't know many), and especially if it is unimportant to talk about science models in the context of their times, rather than to judge them from today's (sub-disciplinary) perspective, then indeed enjoy, but it's neither science nor is it anywhere close to state of the discipline. Mind you, I don't think the conflict thesis is valid one bit, but I see the logic of it at its time and as claimed by the people who did claim it, and I think some of the basic books, such as the Warfare, are valid contributions to scholarship, even if I now think that they are "wrong" in the sense that they do not give me an interpretive framework that is correct. That is what I think a good Wikipedia article on this subject should reflect; that is an approach that is in line with what I see my colleagues arguing in the history of science context, and that is where this article here was going, via compromise, until... well, one can see above what was happening. Clossius 05:15, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Going back to Adrian Baker's comments, I agree that the explanation of the conflict thesis itself does need to be expanded. The article hasn't really gotten past Draper and White (I guess those are the two authors referred to), because we have been trying to hammer out the best way to talk about White. A list of all major conflicts between science and religion over the past 400 years would require us to define, first of all, what qualifies as a "conflict." A representative (not comprehensive) sample of incidents associated with the conflict thesis would, I think, be appropriate and would help the article. A few more examples of modern-day conflict (or perceived conflict) like the creationism debate might be added to the "support" section. I hope that everyone here agrees that conflict really does happen sometimes....

I have no problem keeping the wording to "many historians of science and related academics no longer accept the conflict thesis" or something similar. I think it is a reasonable approximation of reality, and it would allow us to move on to creating real content for the article. Anyone interested can always revisit the issue down the road. Maestlin 19:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Conflict between science and religion? Of course it never happens! (just kidding :-P)
While I still think that the original introduction was more accurate, I'm ok with the idea of moving on and let these adjustments to be made latter. In the above discussion, I agree with many of Clossius generic thoughts about what should make a good article. However, I don't think this article's introduction was failing to meet such criteria. . . . The idea regarding a sample of incidents associated with the conflict thesis may be a good complement for when the article gets larger, but right now I am more interested to see here the historical context that originated the conflict thesis and related issues. There is no place in Wikipedia where one could get such information yet. Anyway, the decision about what to write first is mainly in the hands of each editor. Keep the good work! --Leinad ¬ »saudações! 22:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)