Talk:Computer programming

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Contents 1 Compiling and interpreting 2 First computer programmer 3 How can different parts of a program be in different languages 4 Algorithms still exist 5 Some sources for generalizations 6 HTML/Javascript image not programming 7 C++ is very fast? 8 Too many "examples" 9 The history section 10 Introduction 11 Ruby

[edit] Compiling and interpreting

Step four is dumb. Compiling is done by a compiler, not by a computer programmer, and is in no way relevant to the process of software development. Many programs are interpreted anyway, so compilation is hardly a necessary step. I don't know who came up with this list but it's pretty bad. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.123.150.244 (talk • contribs) 20:45, 12 March 2002.

One way or another, code must be translated into assembly language before it can be run by a computer. Sometimes this process is transparent, such as execution of a program written in an interpreted language (e.g. Javascript). The distinction itself is certainly important. Brent 21:33, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's a little unfair. Tell me: who wrote the compiler program? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.165.123.157 (talk • contribs) 22:23, 4 October 2005.

As for those interpretted languages, it's basically just taking the information in the program and reading it to the computer in machine language, AKA: binary, or machine binary, depending on how technical you are. And if compiling isn't part of the programming process, then how does, say, this code:

from Tkinter import *

root = Tk()

w = Label(root, text="Hello, world!")

w.pack()

root.mainloop()

turn into the 0's and 1's so imprinted into the ignorant person's mind? It definitely doesn't do it by itself! No, I have a nice, dandy, little program called py_compile.py that does it for me. It's very convenient, very real, and very definitely a part of the programming process. And it definitely doesn't run by itself.

Do you yourself program? If not, I suggest taking it up. It is a very good hobby.

print "See ya' later!" --AHFN October 4, 2005

That code above is represented internally as "0's and 1's", and so is this sentence. Compilation has nothing to do with that. I am not sure what you are attempting to stuff into this fuzzy notion of "machine binary", but Python is an interpreted language, which means py_compile is not creating an executable ("machine binary"), but transforming the source text into an intermediate representation for the sake of efficacy - in this case bytecode. For what it's worth, it definitely does "run by itself" - each time the module is imported or run via "python filename". that is what all those .pyc files are doing lying around. As for compilation (always) being a very definite part of the programming process, i don't really think that is valid. consider a language like Scheme, where the intermediate representation of the source code is negligibly different from the source itself. The term, "compilation" is largely synonymous with arduous build processes (linking, makefiles), and applying it to the implicit generation of bytecode or abstract syntax trees is a stretch. --Moe Aboulkheir —The preceding comment was added on 19:02, 16 October 2005.

Hmm, you yourself just demonstrated that "compile" and "build" are different, not the same. If I type "gcc -o helloworld helloworld.c", I have compiled (or caused a compiler to compile) a program from source code. No makefiles or other ephemera of automation required. Brent 21:36, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, by doing that, you will have done quite more than just compile. Compilation is done by the compiler; it is the step of taking the original source code and transforming it into object code. It is what would happen if you did "gcc -c -o helloworld.o helloworld.c". To transform this into an executable, one uses the linker; this will take the object code, link it with the appropriate libraries (for example, libc), and build the executable. Capi 19:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they are, that nuance is not in contention. I said "compilation is largely synonymous with arduous build processes...applying it to the implicit generation of bytecode...is a stretch". What I am trying to convey is that neither compilation, building nor any process which significantly alters the representation of a program in order to have it be executed need be a mandatory step in the lifecycle of a computer program as experienced by a programmer. I apologize if that wasn't made clear. --Moe Aboulkheir —The preceding comment was added on 02:18, 6 December 2005.

[edit] First computer programmer

Defining the "first computer programmer" is impossible, as defining the first computer is a matter of entertaining (but essentially irresolvable) debate anyway. --Robert Merkel —The preceding comment was added on 19:19, 30 June 2002.

[edit] How can different parts of a program be in different languages

Different parts of a program may be written in different langauges. How come ??? Can you give Proper Explaination?

    --Phoe6 —The preceding comment was added on 22:58, 3 January 2003.

To give a simple example, it is generally believed to be easier to write some programs in, say, Perl than C++. However, a well-written C++ program can be much faster than a Perl program for some tasks. Therefore, what you can do is write the bits where performance doesn't matter in Perl, the performance-critical bits in C++, and combine the two. However, this is a little technical for the purposes of the main article. --Robert Merkel —The preceding comment was added on 06:40, 24 January 2003.

Very simply, subroutines to a high level language program can be written in assembler, assembled, and then linked into a main program's compilation link step to produce an executable. Suites of different languages from the same vendor are more likely to follow a compatible scheme in terms of stack protocol, global data, and runtime system library access to allow linking routines written in different languages for the same platform (Operating System, processor chip) in a single program's implementation.

[edit] Algorithms still exist

Algorithms have *not* gone away. Believe me, not everything is available in standard libraries (not even Java's). Maybe *your* programs are all print statements, but mine sure aren't. --Robert Merkel 06:40 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Some sources for generalizations

Some sources for those first two sweeping generalizations at the bottom of the article would be great. "Most software developers come from NATO"? What the fuck does that even mean? "Most software developers come from the North Atlantic"? or "NATO delegates are far more numerous than previously suspected, and it is thought they may actually comprise the majority of the world's software developers". The Demographics "gamasutra" link at the bottom of the article doesn't mention either of those statistics. Moe Aboulkheir 12:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget "[...] while most crackers and software disassemblers come from Asia.". I'm not sure whether this is deliberate vandalism or not, but it definitely doesn't sound either neutral or factual to me. I'm removing it for now: if anyone feels that it (or a modified version) does belong in the article, please argue for it here (with sources, if possible). --Piet Delport 14:02, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HTML/Javascript image not programming

Is it a good idea to have an image of HTML/Javascript in an article about programming? HTML is scripting and I think there should be a more accurate picture for this article. Maybe some history would be good to... anyone? MichaelBillington 06:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

In the page, there is a html screenshot. But Html is not a computer programming! It's a markup language! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.242.12.134 (talk • contribs) 20:01, 22 April 2006.

Maybe my above comment needed some more context. There was a picture in the article which I believed was irrelevant, so I posted my thoughts here and someone removed it. Whoever that was, thanks! MichaelBillington 07:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] C++ is very fast?

"C++ is a very fast programming language, meaning programs written in C++ tend to run at high framerates (which is important for games)."

This is an overgeneralization at best (and really, it's more like flat out misinformation). C++ is well-suited for making fast programs, but the language itself doesn't give the programs their speed. Surely C and assembly language could be called just as fast as (if not faster than) C++. So, I'm removing that tidbit from the article. –Tifego^(t) _{09:40, 15 April 2006 (UTC)}

Not to mention that the concept of 'framerate' cannot be applied to programs in general in any meaningful way. Denis Kasak 12:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Framerate is really only relevant when talking about film/video or similar applications. It could be applied to games but screen refresh rate would be more meaningful. Screen refresh rate has much more to do with the graphics hard/firmware in the user's machine than with the programming language the application was written in (a fast program on a machine with slow graphics hardware will have a slow screen refresh rate. Indeed it doesn't seem meaningful to refer to any language as fast or slow. Programs written in interpreted languages will generally run slower than compiled because of the need to interpret the human readable code (be it plain text such as a scripting language or tokenised such as Java or many BASICs) at run time. There is no inherant reason for a C++ program to be faster or slower than one written in C or Assembly language, or even a compiled BASIC, all other things being equal. The choice of laguage to develop a product is usually driven by the availability of the laguage for the target platform, the availability of developers for that language of sufficient skill level and the ease in which the required product can be developed in that langauge (some languages lend themselves to certain types of project better than others).

Also, my understanding is that games are mostly developed in 4GL environments where the programmer essentially describes the appearence and behaviour of an object. That description is then interpreted by the environment and fed into a game engine, the same game engine may be common to many games, it's just the objects that differ. Stephenbooth uk 14:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

And what are the game engines written in? C/C++! sure the game logic which doesn't need to be as fast may be written in a bytecode based or even fully interpreted language

With a good programmer relatively low level languages like C and C++ that let the programmer decide how best to handle issues like memory management are liable to be faster than languages like java that force your hand on memory allocation. Conventional languages are also more predictable (e.g. because of the way java optimises two bits of code can both be fast when tested in isolation but slow down considerablly when loaded in the same jvm) Plugwash 17:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too many "examples"

It looks like people are simply adding their pet language to the "Examples of Programming Languages" list. Even though I thought the poorly-worded entry for VB was rather appropriate, some sort of limit has to be put on what should be in the list. Prune it down and add a comment into the source. Imroy 16:31, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Done - Centrx 20:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I think a guiding principle would be if the langauge has a Wikipedia page. If someone has gone to the trouble of writing a page then it's probably relvant enough to be an example. Comments? --Stephenbooth uk 16:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's articles about a lot of non-major languages (until recently we had a whole lot of esoteric languages even), but if somebody adds a languge with no article, instant removal is the way to go, otherwise, think, then remove and/or discuss accordingly. How does that sound? Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 12:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The history section

I know I did write most of it, but it really does suck. Does anybody with better writing skills than me want to have a go at structuring some sentences? Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 12:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

I'm new here and wanted to make sure no one would mind a little clean up. I noticed in the introduction that the first sentence reads:

Computer programming (often simply programming or coding) is the craft of writing a set of commands or instructions that can later be compiled and/or interpreted and then inherently transformed to an executable that an electronic machine can execute or "run".

I just thought it might sound better this way:

Computer programming (often simply programming or coding) is the craft of writing a set of commands or instructions that can later be compiled and/or interpreted and then inherently transformed into a package that can be executed or run.

Executable that can be executed just sounds repetitive. I'm also wondering about the word "craft." --PTR 02:20, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ruby

This article says Ruby is like Python, but the Ruby article says otherwise. I don't know enough about Ruby to correct this.--agr 04:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)