Talk:Complexity
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oh, but complexity is not restricted to computer science and complexity theory! maybe we had better make this a disambig. page that would in turn point to
- complexity (computer science)
- complex systems
- ...?
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[edit] Another characteristic of complex systems (complex adaptive systems)
For the definition of complex adaptive systems, three characteristics are mentioned: hih-dimentionality, non-linearity and sensitivity to initial conditions. There is also a fourth characteritic: emergent behaviour. Shouldnt this also be included?
While Complex adaptive systems are of current hot interest, they are by no means the only type of complex system. I currently have observed 4 types of complex systems. The typing reflects the manner with which the system interacts with its chaotic context (environment). (This requires you to understand the 4 zones of chaos.) If the environment is truly random or white noise (Zone 3) then the best complex system is usally robust to withstand the totally unpredictable changes. The zone 1 and 2 chaotic enviroments lend themselves usually to flexible and adaptive complex systems. With flexible complex system changing near real time to transients but going back to previous state when transient subsides. The adaptive complex system changes over time to the new state. When operating in zone 4 ("edge of chaos"), the agile complex system changes based on short term predictions to leverage the upcoming change. There may be more types of complex systems, but these are the current. Anyone who uses just adaptive complex systems is assuming a solution and type of chaotic context that may or may not be real for the case in consideration.
Wikipedia is a complex system with many emergent behaviors, sensitivity to initial contributors. I think the definition of complex - meaning to "weave" indicates that the underlying characteristic of a complex system is the focus on the interelationships rather than the nodes. It is the interaction that gives rise to the behaviors such as non-linearity, sensitivity to initial conditions, emergence, and hi-dimentionality. Counting connections misses the point that complex systems can have few but non-linear interrelationships. I would recommend sticking with basic definition of the terms and current fields of application. If you have to make references I would definitely include Wolfram's book A New Kind of Science.
[edit] This page needs work
It'd be nice if we could have an overview of what is generally meant by complexity and how different fields approach it. All those concepts are somehow related, so we need more than mere disambiguation.
I'm trying to improve the article :-P "The opposite of simplicity" seems a bit dubious to me (and I wrote it ^-^) but refering to simplicity seems necessary. How about randomness ? Computational irreducibility ? Determinism ? A distinction between what is complex and what is complicated ? Flammifer 09:00, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
OK, I've been reorganizing the page. I've removed the disambig link, for one - I think there should be a general discussion of complexity, and how different fields approach it. This overlaps a bit with complex systems, but the term is meaningful outside of complex systems, and it isn't a case of "many different meanings".
The general structure I see is :
- what is complexity ? (edge of chaos, etc.)
- study of complexity in itself (maybe just a summary of complex system)
- complexity in different fields - and how they relate to complex systems (are they talking about the same thing ?); and measures of complexity in different fields.
(Also, some fields aren't mentioned much here, such as design, engineering ... complexity of a user interface is a problem, etc. Flammifer 09:59, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- Thank you for getting things started in a good way; I appreciate your desire to keep the entry generally applicable. In that vein, I edited the word "chaotic" to be "random", since (as I see it) "chaos" has scientific meaning which includes possible explanation of behavior; "randomness" is that which has unexplainable variation. Please let me know if you think otherwise, I welcome any input. 1diot 04:11, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Needs More Work
I would also like to say that this page is in dire need of improvement in both content and structure.
Structurally, the basics of Complexity and its various notions are not covered very well. The general outline seems like random fragments of vague descriptions rather than a systematic outline covering the concepts in any sort of rational structure. A better examples of good outlines for introducing Complexity might be found here:
http://www.calresco.org/intro.htm
(although I wouldn't necessarily advocate the overall approach to Complexity on this site at large)
In terms of content, the current Wikipedia article does nothing to communicate the sheer magnitude of importance Complexity has to nearly every science, major branches of philosophy, business models, and even being crucial to comprehending many of the basic perspectives of the universe in our time.
Although not exactly encyclopedic in their approach, good content sources to look at might include:
http://www.prototista.org/E-Zine/WhatisComplexity.htm
And (humbly) my own:
http://dtstrainphilosophyblog.blogspot.com/2005/08/big-deal-about-complexity.html
I would be happy to cook something up that is more appropriate for an encyclopedia article than my above examples, but I don't want to duplicate any efforts that might be going on right now. If this is appropriate to others here, please feel free to email me at dtstrain@yahoo.com (I will also look back here after a time).
[edit] Is this a joke?
Much of this paragraph seems a parody or satire, is it?
Some indication exists that, pari passu, computer programs become slowly less reliable as their size increases because the statistical and geopolitical meanings of individual bits and bytes of information comprising the program are lost at the extreme of their implications in the environmental thermodynamics of the system. This can be resolved better as computer design becomes better adapted to the ordinary covariant relativistic space-time frame (x, y, z,-ct).
--jonathan
I agree, since I can't figure out what it means, or if it means anything at all. For memory, the deleted piece was:
- Information entropy and thermodynamic entropy are related through statistics, an area that is only emerging recently. The connection is not well determined, but clearly range from trivial inessentials to possibly great value. Entropy, for instance, can be eliminated as a common variable in both the information entropy equation S = - k log (p) and G = U - T*S (archaic notation...) but then the information content immediately disappears, and only by chasing the equations again, will it reappear often in a somewhat different way like Proteus. Some indication exists that, pari passu, computer programs become slowly less reliable as their size increases because the statistical and geopolitical meanings of individual bits and bytes of information comprising the program are lost at the extreme of their implications in the environmental thermodynamics of the system. This can be resolved better as computer design becomes better adapted to the ordinary covariant relativistic space-time frame (x, y, z,-ct).
... if anyone feels like salvaging that, feel free. Flammifer 04:51, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Based on work by Wolfram in his book, A New Kind of Science, the second law of thermodynamics and entropy are in question. I think this discussion is beyond the scope of Wikipedia and is best left to theorists in the New Science.
