Talk:Communes of South Tyrol

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[edit] **OFFER TO MEDIATE** (please respond to Lar)

(see below...)

[edit] Survey

[edit] Survey result

As of now (20:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)) there is a majority (62%) against using multilingual names for the article titles for municipalities in South Tyrol.

With the exception of Bolzano, Brixen, Merano and Brenner, no decisive preference in English usage for a single name has been established.

Regarding the other 112 municipalities: all municipalities in South Tyrol have two or three official names, in Italian, German and some also in Ladin. There is a 89% majority for using the Italian name for municipalities with an Italian-speaking majority (according to 2001 census), a 67% majority for using the Ladin name for municipalities with a Ladin-speaking majority, and a 67% majority for using the German name for municipalities with a German-speaking majority.

Redirects will be created from the names in the other relevant languages, and these names will be shown in the first line of the articles. Markussep 09:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I will start moving articles, creating redirects, and changing the first lines of the articles. If I find a blocking redirect, I will add the article to the list here: #Blocked moves. Markussep 19:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC). Finished, except Bolzano and Merano. Markussep 20:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Stop. Before that, I would like to know how you counted this 62% majority against. Thanks.--Panarjedde 23:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Proposal D is the only one that uses double names. There are 4 users pro (Gryffindor, Fantasy, Giovanni Giove, Panarjedde), 8 users contra (Markussep, Septentrionalis, trialsanderrors, Supparluca, Olessi, Emptywords, Ajaxsmack, Red Zebra), and 1 unclear (Gene Nygaard). If I count Gene Nygaard as pro (but his remark "Should be all English" can be interpreted against double names as well), it's 38% (5/13) pro, and 62% contra. Markussep 19:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

This is an attempt to find consensus about a consistent and unambiguous way to name all municipalities of South Tyrol. It is a result of several failed move requests for Bozen-Bolzano. See Talk:Bozen-Bolzano for the previous discussions. Currently, all municipalities in South Tyrol have bi- or trilingual article titles, in German, Italian, and some also in Ladin. The reason for this is that South Tyrol is officially bilingual Italian and German, with certain areas where Ladin is also an official language. This has led to confusing titles such as Natz - Schabs-Naz - Sciaves. Moreover, it suggests (especially when the names are quite different like Olang-Valdaora) that they are two different places combined, rather than one place (like Castrop-Rauxel or Minneapolis-St. Paul).

The proposal is to move all related articles to a single name. If they don't exist already, redirects will be made from the names in the other languages, and they will be mentioned in the first line of the articles. There are three suggested systems for this:

A - all Italian (rationale: they're in Italy)

B - all German (rationale: German speaking majority in South Tyrol)

C - all in the language of the local majority (103 German, 5 Italian, 8 Ladin, based on the 2001 census). The Italian places are Bolzano, Bronzolo, Laives, Salorno and Vadena. The Ladin places are Badia, Corvara, La Val, Mareo, San Martin de Tor, S.Crestina Gherdëina, Sëlva and Urtijëi.

D - leave it like it is (German name-Italian name)

Exceptions should be made for places that have a single widely used name in English. Please give your opinion about the proposed systems below (sign with ~~~~), and if you think one of the related places has a single widely used name in English, write that under #Exceptions (with some proof). Markussep 18:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A (all Italian)

  • Second preference. Markussep 18:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Largely indifferent between this and German. Septentrionalis 19:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Last preference Gryffindor 21:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support because the English names (this is the English Wikipedia) coincide with the Italian names for the cities and towns in South Tyrol (example: Bolzano). Another reason (weak): their official names are the Italian names, because they are in Italy.--Supparluca 15:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • First preference. Italian names would be the names a typical English-speaker would probably encounter the most (official documents, tourism publications). I support using traditional English names where applicable, but Brixen and Brenner are the only "maybes" I can think of at the moment. Olessi 17:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • First preference. All rational methods explained since now show that Italian names should be preferred because they are more found in the language community. --Σω 17:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongly against. Any hiding of an official name would be clearly against NPOV, the first law of Wikipedia, and also the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica in Volume V04, Page 311 Article Titel: "BOTZEN, or BOZEN (Ital. Bolzano)" uses both names. Fantasy 09:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support as second possibility--Panarjedde 11:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose. Almost all Italian names were invented by Italian nationalists who desired to annex Südtirol since the 1890s. After the Allies handed over Südtirol to Italy after WW I, Mussolinis fascists enforced the use of Tolomei's list in the 1920s.-- Matthead discuß!     O       19:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] B (all German)

  • Third preference. Markussep 18:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Largely indifferent between this and Italian. Septentrionalis 19:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Second last preference Gryffindor 21:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Second preference it's wrong, but still better than the other two.--Supparluca 15:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Second preference. Agree with Supparluca. Olessi 17:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Second preference. Italian is a statistically-founded choice, but moving to German names with a clear explanation of the double names problem is quite the same. --Σω 17:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongly against. Any hiding of an official name would be clearly against NPOV, the first law of Wikipedia, and also the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica in Volume V04, Page 311 Article Titel: "BOTZEN, or BOZEN (Ital. Bolzano)" uses both names. Fantasy 09:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongly against. Leave it for German Wikipedia. Furthemore, if the rule is "German because most of South Tyroleans speak German", it would be better to use "Italian because most of Italians speak Italian (and South Tyroleans are Italians)".--Panarjedde 11:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong support, even for those few places without a german-speaking majority.-- Matthead discuß!     O       19:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] C (all local majority language)

  • First preference. Markussep 18:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • First preference, see notes on exceptions below. Septentrionalis 18:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Not a good idea. Gryffindor 21:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose there are no reasons for doing so (example: Rome, Italian majority, name in English). And when the majority changes?--Supparluca 15:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Meran/Merano is the only place where the majority is likely to change, so this is not a worry elsewhere. Septentrionalis 15:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - in practically all cases there is no distinct "English" name, so of the choices the local majority name seems sensible. Aquilina 16:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Third preference. I disapprove of having placenames in a country be in multiple languages (other than English). Olessi 17:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
In the Switzerland articles, there are place names in the four official languages and in English, so why shouldn't it be possible to have more than one language for Italian places? MRB 16:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Some examples?--Supparluca 16:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Examples: Lucerne, Geneva (English), Basel, Murten (German), Fribourg, Lausanne (French), Locarno, Bellinzona (Italian), Scuol, S-chanf (Romansh). Markussep 17:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Third preference. The local majority factor should be not considered as a criteria, since physical presence is different from language use. But this could also be an acceptable one. --Σω 17:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. English language names to be used first, if not possible, pick a local majority language and set up redirects for the rest.--Asteriontalk 18:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongly against. This just hurts the minorities. Already now italians feel a minority in South Tyrol. If you take away the italian-invented names for the italian in "german" places, you help growing the unhappyness of italian minorities in South Tyrol. Please don't do it, you just hurt people and don't gain anything by it. Wikipedia can use two names, there is no reason against it (except "awful", if that is considered a reason compared to hurting people...) Fantasy 09:57, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm Italian and I can grant that we are not offended by that kind of choice. --Σω 19:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. I agree with Asterion's comment. MRB 16:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This is English Wikipedia, an uncontroversial rule should be found.--Panarjedde 11:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Support - as I prefer the more clear choice B, and don't see why occupation and immigration should justify the use of a new name for a few places.-- Matthead discuß!     O       19:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] D (no change)

  • Oppose. Ambiguous and confusing. Markussep 18:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Indeed it is; any other choice would be preferable. Septentrionalis 19:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Definete keeper. In that way, both languages are reflected and no (ethnic) side would be hurt. Gryffindor 21:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Schrecklich-terribile I second Septentrionalis on all choices. ~ trialsanderrors 02:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Only acceptable choice. Should be all English. Gene Nygaard 08:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose it's so absurd that it isn't even worth discussing.--Supparluca 15:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Not even a preference. Olessi 17:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I hope at least we rationally recognized that's not a solution. --Σω 17:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • First choice. The argument "Awful" is wrong, we are not discussing about how nice, but about the right name. If something has two official names, why hide one. Any hiding of an official name would be clearly against NPOV, the first law of Wikipedia! Fantasy 09:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if I repeat myself over and over and over again, but I think that the official name of Rome is Roma.--Supparluca 13:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry for the additional comment, but please see the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica in Volume V04, Page 311 Article Titel: "BOTZEN, or BOZEN (Ital. Bolzano)". Interresting, isn't it, the encylopedia Britannica using three names and it does not seem to look upgy at all ;-) Fantasy 09:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
    All this can possibly show is that English usage (and German spelling) have changed since 1911. EB 1911 also spells Tyrol as Tirol, but we're not going to move that article. The 1911 Britannica is not a guide to neutrality; it is famous because it expresses the opinions of its authors. I observe that it also describes Botzen as majority German-speaking; this has changed too. Septentrionalis 15:32, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Any of the above are better than multiple names. The existence of two official names does not mean they should be used simultaneously. Furthermore, Wikipedia is under no compulsion to follow (sometimes contradictory) government policy. If Washington, D.C. (officially District of Columbia) and Bangkok (officially Krung Thep Maha Nakhon or Krung Thep Maha Nakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayutthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udom Ratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Phiman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanu Kamprasit) can be listed unofficially, so can Tyrolese towns and cities. -  AjaxSmack  22:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, double name give a more correct idea. In presence of a double name is not possible to identify the "English" name. Two names are clarer and the do not create cofusion. The particular case quoted by Ajaxsmack has nothing to do with the present discussion.--Giovanni Giove 06:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose per AjaxSmack, Markussep... Confusing to say the least. Any single name is prefereable to this solution. RedZebra 12:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support--Panarjedde 11:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Support as the current political compromise with double naming neatly illustrates the situation: Italian occupation of a German-speaking area. -- Matthead discuß!     O       19:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Exceptions

  • Bolzano.
    • English usage over Bozen, as google suggests. Bozen gets 150,000 English results; Bolzano 900,000. I have seen Bolzano in discussions of purely German topics, like Kaufmann's Nietzsche.Septentrionalis 19:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
      The original name was "Botzen", so what is nearer, Bolzano or Bozen? And interestingly the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica in Volume V04, Page 311 states "BOTZEN, or BOZEN (Ital. Bolzano)". Interresting, isn't it ;-) Fantasy 09:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
      On "Nietzsche" part: are you sure Kaufmann was not talking about Bernard Bolzano? --Σω 19:32, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
      Yes, he was writing about Nietzsche's wanderings before his breakdown. Septentrionalis 00:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Brixen:
  • Merano
    • If I read the census correctly, this is the only case which lacks a 2-1 ethnic majority. It should therefore be considered separately. Google suggests that English usage is Merano, but I would not object to Meran. Septentrionalis 19:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Brenner

[edit] Discussion

[edit] exceptional choices

All of my exceptional choices (with the exception, I think, of Merano) agree with Option C, which is another reason to prefer it. If it comes down to A and B, I present the google for Villandro (323) vs. Villanders (250, including many patently German pages). I'm not sure this is significant, but if a choice must be made... Septentrionalis 19:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this page can stay as it is (the links will merely become redirects). The reason for this move is everybody else's convenience. Septentrionalis 19:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice to turn this page into a table, so you can see immediately what's the German name, what the Italian name etc. Low priority, but not much work. Markussep 21:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I would like to hear the opinions of users from South Tyrol, in equal numbers German-speaker, Italian-speaker and Ladin-speakers (being English-speakers as well obviously). Because this issue runs deeper than meets the eye IMO. Gryffindor 21:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Some thoughts about the above discussion:
All cities and villages have at least two official names, those in the ladin areas even three.
Since the late middle ages some of them have italian names, used by the Italians like the Italian capital is called Rome in English.
The majority of the italian names have no historical roots but have been created by Ettore Tolomei, see : Prontuario dei nomi locali dell'Alto Adige.
At the moment negotiations between the government of South Tyrol and Italy take place to get rid of these unhistoric namings.
afaik there are only three towns with an italian-speaking majority, these are Bolzano, Merano and Leifers.
Excuse my bad English. Regards --ManfredK 03:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
You may understand that history is absolutely no matter for the organization of an encyclopedia. The parameters are more similar to the ones used by a dictionary rather than a history book. Following your considerations, why not naming London page "Londinium" and Bolzano-Bozen page "Bauzanum", the real historical names?
Also you may explain what actually is a "historical root" for a name: ethimology? the length of time it was used? And most of all, why Italian names are supposed to have no historical roots, since most of them are based on the previous names - and then bring with them all the previous history?
If you really wanna analyse the historical roots, I argue that peopling and civilizing of this region is due mainly to Romans that conquered this land and founded Bauzanum as an important junction in commerce. Without Romans this would certainly be not the land that actually is, even for German-speaking people.
I also never heard of those negotiations: maybe Durnwalder is trying to annex South Tyrol to Austria without telling no one of this? --Σω 18:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm from South Tyrol and I think I widely explained the reasons here and here. I also think that local inhabitants are far too influenced by political views to have a clear opinion on the problem. I don't have an unconditioned love for my birthplace, even if I like being Southtyrolean and I moderately like Bolzano/Bozen. I just tried to bring out rational reasons since now, not the ones driven by heart, and I hope those helped out making a clear view of this problem.
--Σω 18:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Nice way you put it "I also think that local inhabitants are far too influenced by political views to have a clear opinion on the problem." You mean, people who were tortured and even died had no clear opinion on the problem. You are misusing the term "clear" in order to get rid of the people who are affected by this decision. Nice try.
I hope not all Wikipedians will follow your reasoning of "If you are affected, your opinion does not count"... Fantasy 10:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
PS: And don't tell me that I am not affected. If I have to tell english friends the name of the place where I come from, this decision affects my daily life!
Ok, if I come from Rome, I have to tell my English friends the English name of my city (even if I was tortured by English people who don't know what "Roma" is), it's so difficult to understand?--Supparluca 12:25, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
That's the form of victimism that makes clear how local people are too heavily influenced by *their own political view* to express a clear judgement.
In case you didn't notice, who "tortured and killed" German Southtyroleans in the majority of cases is already DEAD, and after near 3 generations of living in South Tyrol of both ethnic groups there is obviously no more support for that kind of acts (except for some really dumm people). I suggest to open your eyes, because fascism died 60 years ago. I think I'm near half of your age and I can grant that all new generations live quietly together, also thanking the big help that came from our government to sedate the problems that fascist politic created in South Tyrol.
The problem of "telling your English friends" is also quite ridiculous. If a non-Italian asks me if I'm from Bozen, well, I'll answer affirmatively, maybe simply by noticing that my hometown has two names. (I'm actually very proud of that particularity of my province that makes it so interesting). Who cares if they tell me first the Italian or the German name? You have that strange talking faculty that allows you to explain things to who doesn't know them.
As a conclusion I would state that my opinion followed the ones of people who's not Southtyrolean at all like Markussep or Andrewa. I'm prone to consider that they might have a neutral point of view (the kind of things you're continuously remarking), not people who seeks personal revenge for things that other people did to other people in the past. Please DON'T identify Italians with Fascists, thanks.
--Σω 15:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] finding the name / fanatics?

No matter what is done, somebody needs to go fix all of them whose article names include diacritics by adding a sort key so that they index properly. See Wikipedia:Categorization. Gene Nygaard 08:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Note also that any single name, used in conjunction with categorization of redirects, would make the categories more helpful in finding the information.

Some of you fanatics about the use of a certain name and the use of squiggles all over that name seem to forget that we are in the business of providing information, and that hiding this information so that people can't find what they are looking for even when it does exist is bad. Gene Nygaard 08:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Why should someone not find something? You find Bozen, Bolzano, Bozen-Bolzano, Bolzano-Bozen. Or did I misunderstand your statement? Fantasy 10:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
PS: Who are the fanatics? Do you mean me? Or my granfather who died for the right to use german? Or all the other people who suffered? Or the italians who suffer now because they feel a minority in thir own country? Or the people who want to get rid of one of two official names just for the sake of "awfulness"?
I'm really sorry for what people done to your grandfather, Fantasy, because killing someone is always a bad thing. But I hope you'll recognize that they are not the same people who now lives in South Tyrol. As you stated, maybe today are mainly Italian the people feeling not at home in this province, but you may see that to me and Supparluca (which I think are both Italians and Southtyroleans) makes no difference if names are turned all in German or all in Italian, since it's the change that's needed to create some readable pagenames. So why all that noise?
I hope then you may see things more out of your subjective point of view. --Σω 15:28, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should be all English

Gene, what do you mean with your remark "Should be all English." under option D? Markussep 09:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Mostly, I guess, that using English shouldn't be expressed as an "exception" but rather the primary rule, even if it ends up that that rule can only be applied to a minority of cases. In many cases there probably won't be any name that predominates in English usage, or there won't be enough ascertainable English usage to determine it. In those cases, leaving things as they are isn't a bad option; the ones that are helped by a dual name probably already have it, and if some of the others have the name derived from the German language and others the name derived from the Italian language, so be it. Just as in the case of national varieties of English, insisting on an artificial consistency would be more disruptive than helpful. It would be more productive to work on ensuring that links to either name and searches for either name will lead you to the correct information, rather than quibbling about which one gets the one slot allocated to the article name. That includes making the proper redirects, and it also includes making sure the indexing sort keys are fixed. Gene Nygaard 13:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Secondly, I mean that the English name, for purposes of filling the one slot available, may differ from the Italian spellings given in this article and from the German spellings. That's most likely to happen if a town is well known in a proper English alphabet spelling. I don't know if that applies to any of these, but in any case, somebody should be making sure that, even if it is not chosen as the name for the English Wikipedia article, Muhlbach is not a redlink, and that it is either a disambiguation page or a redirect, and the same for many others as well. Gene Nygaard 13:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
In this particular case, Muhlbach should be a disambiguation page because of Muhlbach, Luxembourg, even if the article for the town in South Tyrol is placed at Muhlbach, Italy or Muhlbach, South Tyrol or whatever. Gene Nygaard 14:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
You're completely right about English usage, that's rule no. 1 for me as well. BTW it's Mühlbach with umlaut, currently a dab page, so if option B or C wins, it should be something like Mühlbach, Italy, or Mühlbach (BZ) according to the system on Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(city_names)#Italy. I don't understand the link with national varieties of English, there's no article Colour-Color, is there?
Sorry, you are wrong, our FIRT LAW in Wikipedia is still NPOV, Neutral Point of view, al the rest are just "normally we use to" Guidelines, not binding. Fantasy 10:11, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia, not an official government document. We don't have to use all official names in the title. Of course English usage prevails, and if you don't believe me check the naming conventions. It has nothing to do with (N)POV, or oppression of minorities. It would be POV if we claimed that "Bozen" is the only name of the town. EB1911 might have been nice in its time, but its choices are hardly relevant nowadays. If you look at the scan of the EB1911 page, you'll see that "BOTZEN" is the title of the article (larger and bold print), with Bozen and Bolzano given in smaller print. I hope you're not suggesting moving it to this obsolete spelling? Markussep 10:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
No, Botzen is history ;-)
I just don't see a real reason why Wikipedia should not use both names.
Awful is the only one I see on this page. If that is a reason, compared to the other reason, I think that is sad :-( Fantasy 10:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Separating by - or / or ()

Comment. I'm not too interested and competent in the matter, so I'll pass the vote. However, if the vote comes out to keep "as-is", wouldn't it be far more clearer if a slash is used as separator? (e.g. Bozen/Bolzano). In this way, it would be clear that those are alternate names, not a single name (cf. Bozen-Bolzano and Bergen-Belsen). Duja 10:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Markussep mentioned on Talk:Bozen-Bolzano that "Slashes are used in wikipedia to create hierarchy, better not use them in article titles." An alternative would be Bolzano (Bozen). Olessi 17:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Works for Aoraki/Mount Cook (which incidentally is the official name). ~ trialsanderrors 19:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica in Volume V04, Page 311 Article Titel: "BOTZEN, or BOZEN (Ital. Bolzano)". If we use that, we then have the next problem of defining which one is inside and which one is outside parentesis. A - or / is less degrading for the second name. Fantasy 10:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
That article (that you maybe didn't read) also states:
"a town in the Austrian province of Tirol"
which is not since, um, the First World War. And that would be obvious since it is taken from a page written in 1911. Why not then bringing out a medieval history book with the article name "Bauzanum"? --Σω 15:32, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] If option D -> what comes first?

We probably have to do another survey if option D is taken. There should be a rule for what name is first.

If I remember right in Finland on the signs is first the ethnic majority name, then second the minority name. And they have to change all the signs of a place, if that changes. It seems to work there. Maybe also a way for Wikipedia? (Generations of politicians did not find a suitable solution for this problem in Italy...) Fantasy 10:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright. What's the minority in South Tyrol?
  • on province level, minority is Italian;
  • on state level, minority is German.
Street signs in South Tyrol often follow that rule based on local census: in Bolzano all signs show Italian first and German second, but the positions are inverted if you drive a little out of town in direction of Appiano/Eppan.
If this rule of respect for ethnic minority should be used, then the choice is point C (which I gradually think might be also a good solution).
--Σω 15:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Awful (Ambiguous and confusing)

Comments on "Awful" (now changed to "Ambiguous and confusing"):

  • Confusing: If you think reality is confusing, you can make things simple for simple minds. Don't put too much reality in Wikipedia, don't expect normal readers to understand what is written in Wikipedia. They are not used to think for themselfs. Is it that what you mean?
  • Ambiguous:
    • You have redirects for both names, so in Articles you can use any of this names and it works fine. No need to use both names in articles.
    • If the title uses both names, it is 100% Unaubiguous.
  • Awful:
    • In articles it is awful, so just use on of the two names.
    • The Article itself should be as close to reality as possible (NPOV), so when someone clicks on Bozen or Bolzano he should arrive at the REAL Name (2 names).

Maybe you can explain what you exactly you mean with "Ambiguous and confusing". Thanks :-) Fantasy 11:11, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

What I mean with confusing and ambiguous is stated in my introduction to the survey. Markussep 11:33, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that "awful" (=you don't name "Dirty-Bastard" the article about Adolf Hitler because many people suffered because of him) is pretty clear.--Supparluca 13:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Fantasy has referenced the 1911 Britannica multiple times; the LoveToKnow version of it has the article titled simply as Botzen, a name of the town in English at the beginning of the 20th century. This discussion is simply about the titles of articles; alternate names will still be listed and bolded. The current naming scheme for ST localities looks terrible, IMO, and should be reduced to a single name. If Italian names are picked as article titles, then German names are not going to be removed from articles (and vice-versa). AFAIK, dual titling is NOT used in other European locality articles (in Belgium, Romania, etc.). Articles with dashes in their titles also suggest either a combined municipality or a "funny" name (Baden-Baden, Brandýs nad Labem-Stará Boleslav, Bergen-Belsen etc.). Olessi 15:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the municipalities of Finland are a nice example of option C: all places with a Swedish majority have the Swedish name for article title, and all with a Finnish majority the Finnish name (with the name in the other language mentioned in the first line). As far as I could see there was no discussion about this, no moves back and forth. Markussep 17:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the case of Finland and Sweden fits, because Sweden never came and send in colonisers and supressed the Finnish language the way the Italian government under Mussolini did with the native German-speaking population. So it's nice how the Finnish and the Swedes were able to solve their issues, but this is quite different in South Tyrol considering the history. Gryffindor 20:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
You really have your story biased Gryffindor. There was oppression of the German-speaking population during the 20th century, this is without question. You have to realize that this region has come to terms with that, and we live in peace. For the best of me, I can't understand why you are on here doing things that provide us with nothing but bad feelings. You have to also realize that during the 19th century when the region was controlled by Austria, the Italian-speakers were just as well oppressed. There were the name changes of people, etc. blah blah blah. The point is, this happened for literally centuries in this region. We have finally reached a point where the PEOPLE can live in peace. What is your issue trying to bring up the aggressor/victim thing here? Did someone key your car while you were visiting or something? o_O If you know this area, you will learn to share and realize it is the mixture here that has made it so nice in the end of it all! Taalo 10:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Colonisation may not be the right term for both the Swedish control over Finland (13th century-18th century) and the Italian control over South Tyrol. My impression is that there isn't much of a struggle in South Tyrol nowadays, not like in the 1920s-1930s and 1960s. The official status of the three languages (like in Finland) is IMO a good example of the more relaxed situation. Markussep 09:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
The situation is very relaxed in Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol as well. The only non-relaxed stuff I've seen is by a few users on here! Go figure! Taalo 10:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] German *speaking* majority?

I don't think that there is a German speaking majority in South Tyrol. I mean, every single person in South Tyrol can speak Italian, while German is just studied as third language in schools. Maybe you are considering the "dichiarazione d'appartenenza" that people receive at home (you have some privileges if you declare yourself German).--Supparluca 08:14, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

German people in little communes speak Italian just for commercial and touristic reasons, because most of them (especially in smaller communities dislocated in mountain places) doesn't evidently like talking that language, also because they don't need it to live in places so far from big cities.
Also German is studied as a *second* language in Italian schools and as a first language in German schools; you start studying both languages together. Quite everywhere in South Tyrol you have to prove your linguistical skills in both languages - and also English - to work properly, or else you'll cut out a big part of the market.
--Σω 09:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know, German-speakers in South Tyrol do consider themselves to be Italian, but only as German-speakers first. But few question their region belonging to the Italian republic. The issue of independence has been brought up, interestingly enough also by former Italian president Francesco Cossiga, who said it was best if South Tyrol became independent and the whole messy issue would just go away. Gryffindor 20:55, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consistency

Just out of curiosity, if we choose option C, we have to move Cagliari to Casteddu (Sardinian speaking majority), and so on?--Supparluca 10:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Cagliari is better, if not exclusively known in English under its Italian name, so I wouldn't suggest that move. The Sardinian names might be more relevant for some smaller places (it's an official language on Sardinia, isn't it?), but I'm no expert on Sardinia. Markussep 10:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
That's exactly the reason for choosing option A: English speaking people who don't speak German know and use the Italian names.--Supparluca 10:43, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Cagliari is not the right example to prove that e.g. Villanders should be Villandro, or Mareo Marebbe. As Septentrionalis showed in his Google tests, the differences are small for the lesser known South Tyrolian places. Cagliari : Casteddu = 19M : 0.7k in Google test. Markussep 10:54, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Do you really think that English speaking people are likely to know and use a name in a language (Ladin) spoken by 30000 people in the world?--Supparluca 19:51, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't expect a lot of people to know these villages at all, by Italian, German or Ladin name. You understand the rationale behind the Ladin article titles, don't you? We voted, this is the result. Markussep 20:32, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
In fact, I don't understand it, since that violates the naming conventions, which have nothing to do with surveys. Anyway, the discussion is over for now, who cares.--Supparluca 21:31, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
My reason is: The naming conventions would have us
  • first use whatever name is normally used in English. Bolzano, Brixen, and Cagliari are decided at this step. I don't see the evidence that any name is normally used in English for Marebbe.
  • Then use the local official name. This is indecisive; all three names are official.
This leaves us with no decision, and a general dislike for the hyphenated triple name. If Mareo is 92% Ladin, why not use the Ladin name? Septentrionalis 18:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template

As a visual help to focus on the problem, I deliberately created a stub page here based on previous Bozen-Bolzano page, showing how the articles might be shown after this survey. I didn't write Bozen the same font size as Bolzano just for aesthetical reasons, but if you think that it could also work we may make them the same size.

This is just a stub to visualize what we mean by changing the pagenames, so feel free to give your opinion.

--Σω 16:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I moved it to User:Emptywords/Bolzano x so that the city is not duplicated in the namespace. I would rephrase the intro to read "Bolzano (Italian) or Bozen (German) is a city in the autonomous province of South Tyrol in Trentino-South Tyrol, Italy." Olessi 16:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the moving (I'm quite a beginner in those technicalities here), even if the page was meant to be removed after the complexive approval.
I suggested to rephrase the entire article because that way we don't have to read "Bolzano/Bozen" in every paragraph. By choosing a language we also allow a simplification of all article writing, which should be chosen on the article's main name.
--Σω 17:33, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Septentrionalis 18:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Not really. Gryffindor 19:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Which single name?

As I write, there is a consensus against option D. Let us see if there is any agreement on which single name to use; fortunately, in most cases, this is binary. I am citing positions above as I understand them. Septentrionalis 18:22, version of 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bolzano, Brixen, Brenner

I see nobody arguing for Bozen, Brennero, or Bressanone; Fantasy appears to be alone in preferring Botzen. Septentrionalis 18:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

For me, all Italian or all German (so Bolzano, Brennero and Bressanone). Also consider that informations about speaking majorities aren't reliable.--Supparluca 20:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Please explain and source the last comment. Markussep's census of speaking majorities is published by the provincial government; so it ought to be reasonably reliable unless a clear political interest can be proven. And if there is such an interest, what is it? Septentrionalis 15:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not talking about "manipulations", I just think (I'm sure) that you can't have reliable data on something like speaking majority, or religion (you know, 98% of Italians are Catholic!). Furthermore, you have some minor privileges if you declare yourself German in South Tyrol.--Supparluca 14:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
There's doubtless some error; but are you suggesting that Mareo, which is recorded as 93% Ladin, or Villanders, 98% German, have a different plurality? If you are only contending for middle-sized errors, we could move more close cases into an intermediate category; but nothing is anywhere as near as Merano. Septentrionalis 19:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm suggesting that in Marebbe (2% Italian, 93% Ladin), 100% of the population can speak Italian, while in Fortezza (40% Italian, 1% Ladin), just 1% of the population can speak Ladin. Anyway, the point is that option C, like option D, isn't a serious solution.--Supparluca 16:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I have a problem with using a name that has been imposed by a colonising power on the local population. I think the case of Ayers Rock, now known again under the original name Uluru is a case in point. Or how would Italian-speakers feel if someone came from outside and told them to start using different names simply because their country has been annexed? Gryffindor 20:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Please, history is full of this sort of things. London was under the Roman Empire some time ago, and consequently it is named Londinium in the Latin wikipedia. There's an analogous situation with the cities in South Tyrol: the German wikipedia can use (has to use, according to the naming conventions) the German names. Re your question, the people of your example would continue to use the Italian name while speaking in Italian, I don't see any connection with the name used in the English wikipedia.--Supparluca 13:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's relevant what languages the inhabitants speak as second language. In absence of a common English name, and with three different official names, I suppose the local name (Ladin in this case) is the most relevant. It works for Finnish municipalities. Markussep 09:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Another thing: there's also Brixen im Thale in Austria, so Brixen would have to be disambiguated, e.g. Brixen, Italy. Markussep 09:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Meran(o)

  • Google: 858,000 English hits for Merano without Meran; 326,000 for Meran without Merano. Meran appears also to be ambiguous with Hotel Meran in Prague, the Meran variation of the Semi-Slav Defense in chess, and a Kurdish proper name. Two of these are presumably named after Meran, but one of them testifies to Czech usage, not English. I see no correspionding confusion for Merano.
  • Linguistic affiliation: 51% German by the census.
  • Survey: no specific comments on the subject, so far.
Well if you want to go by linguistic affiliation, this one would have to be at "Meran" if it's 51% German speaking. Otherwise this whole new policy is going to be full of holes and discrepancies. Gryffindor 19:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I suggest using Merano only in this case, because is the second biggest city in South Tyrol and one of the few well known in other parts of Italy. --Σω 07:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I tend to agree; this is a case where English usage can be shown. Septentrionalis 15:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Why should it be Merano if the majority is German-speaking? Gryffindor 20:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
What is your problem with this region Gryffindor? The name should be listed as Merano-Meran. End of story. There is no English name per se. Just drop this movement of yours, you disrespect MY region. Taalo 21:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Because it seems to be the English language name for the city. In the same way, we say Prague and Vienna, not Praha or Wien. --Asteriontalk 20:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
The "English" language name? You mean the Italian probably. Gryffindor 19:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe that Asterion means, and I know I do, the English name, the name commonly used in English prose; just as the English name of Rome is Rome and the English name of Paris is Paris. Septentrionalis 21:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bronzolo, Laives, Salorno and Vadena

  • Google (for Bronzolo, I don't think which matters): 593 for Bronzolo to 241 for Branzoll. Two of the results for the first page of Branzoll are actually German pages.
  • Linguistic affiliation: at least 4-3 Italian majority, and changing quite slowly.
  • Survey: Only Gryffindor prefers Branzoll, Leifers, Salurn, Pfatten. The rest of us want either the national language or the local majority.

[edit] Badia, Corvara, La Val, Mareo, San Martin de Tor, S.Crestina Gherdëina, Sëlva and Urtijëi.

  • Google (for Mareo, chosen because it has three names without diacritics.) If we include Vigil/Vigilio, Marebbe has overwhelming usage because St. Vigilio in Marebbe is the post office address (but this proves Italian usage); if we don't, Enneberg has 60 pages; Mareo 11; Marebbe 73. (Without Tyrol, Mareo is massively ambiguated.)
  • Linguistic: Mareo is 93% Ladin; only one of these is as low as 82%
  • Survey
    • Italian (A): Supparluca, Olessi, Emptywords
    • German (B):
    • Ladin (C): Markussep, Septentrionalis, Gryffindor (as the least bad) Aquilina, Asterion, trials and errors.

[edit] All others

These are the clearly German-majority communes. I use Villanders, again, because it is hard to find one of these which is not ambiguated.

  • Google: Villandro:291, Villanders: 253. Again, some of the Villanders results are German pages.
  • Census: 98% German-affiliated, which is not uncommon; all of these are above 59%
  • Survey
    • Italian (A): Supparluca, Olessi, Emptywords
    • German (B,C): Markussep, Septentrionalis, Gryffindor, Aquilina, Asterion, trials and errors.

I hope this clarifies matters; have I misrepresented any opinion, or does anyone want to change? (I am genuinely unsure of Gene Nygaard's position on this; does he simply want whatever single name we use to be without diacritics?) Septentrionalis 18:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree on everything. --Σω 07:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming conventions (geographic names)

Consider peeking at the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) about the proposed naming guideline. --Lysytalk 16:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Related move requests etc.

I just made move requests for Bozen-Bolzano (finished: Bolzano) and Meran-Merano (restarted 8 October).

Some other articles with double names in the titles curently are:

I suppose that using the result of the survey (common English name, if there isn't any, take local majority language name) most of these would move to the German name, except Gröden (to Ladin name, Gherdëina?). Comments? Markussep 10:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I would be careful about the rivers; there is probably considerable English usage for Isarco/Eisack. Also, the local inhabitants test is less clear-cut for large features. Septentrionalis 19:10, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I'll try to apply the rules we agreed upon on these cases:
Sulden or Solda: I see no overwhelming preference in Google (English language, minus wikipedia, plus Italy) for either version. The municipality Stilfs is 98% German, so Sulden is most likely predominantly German as well. Ergo Sulden.
Gossensaß or Colle Isarco: no overwhelming preference in Google for either version. The municipality Brenner is 79% German, so Gossensaß is most likely predominantly German as well. Ergo Gossensaß.
Gröden or Val Gardena or Gherdëina: Val Gardena seems a lot more popular in Google than the other two. The three municipalities that make up Val Gardena (Urtijëi, Santa Crestina and Sëlva) are predominantly Ladin (resp. 82, 91 and 88%). Not sure, English usage seems to prefer Val Gardena.
Vinschgau and Val Venosta: a lot more Google hits for Vinschgau than for Val Venosta. Vinschgau is 97% German-speaking according to census. Ergo Vinschgau.
Eisack or Isarco: neither gets many hits in Google (combined with river). The valley of the Eisack is predominantly German-speaking, except for Bolzano, at its confluence with the Adige. Not sure, probably Eisack is better.
Rienz or Rienza: neither gets many hits in Google (combined with river). The valley of the Rienz is predominantly German-speaking. Ergo Rienz. Markussep 18:46, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


Why would we list them like this? The Province of Bolzano (Bozen) is in Italy, and the names are listed Italian-German: Bolzano-Bozen, Brennero-Brenner. Switching them around to German first sure gives some reason to wonder what the motives are. I see that even Brennero-Brenner is only listed as Brenner. Now that is even better, just take off the Italian name all together, eh???? Taalo 00:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, actually, you asked for a comment. I've got one. Why are you so insistent to even go as far as just using the German names?? Are you actually attempting to ignite controversy? Everything in Bolzano-Bozen is listed bilingual. Italian and German names are not dropped because of language surveys (which are nonsense in the first place). In fact, MOST people speak dialects.. so even an Italian dialect might use the German name and vise versa. Man, some of you all are really making someone such as myself, who is rooted in this region, want to bang my head against the wall. How you all just come up with this stuff at the comfort of your keyboard, is really beyond me. Taalo 00:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The proper naming convention for these cities is the Italian name then German name (i.e., Bolzano-Bozen, Solda-Sulden, Merano-Meran, etc.). That is how the Italian government specifies it, that is how the actual signs in the region state it. To do so otherwise would portray a POV that is incorrect with being fair and just (besides, the cities - even if of austrian heritage, are in Italy). Rarelibra 20:53, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] South Tyrol, the name

This is not a proper name for the province. The proper name is Bolzano (Bozen) - with "Bolzano" being the given Italian name (which is verified through references below and many users who actually live there), and with "Bozen" the alternate name - give with respect. References include:

http://www.statoids.com/uit.html
http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gmap&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq
http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=-1956
http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gpro&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-1956&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=491419135
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Italy_Autonomous_regions.htm

The region is "Trentino-Alto Adige" (alternate name "Sudtirol"), and the province is "Bolzano" (alternate name "Bozen"), and the town is "Bolzano" (although the Italians list it as "Bolzano-Bozen" for the dual-names method). That is INDISPUTABLE and solves this. Rarelibra 20:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Along these lines, we need to create a page for "South Tyrol" as it would be for respect as far as the region and its name use for tourism and such. Maybe a sub-page from the Bolzano (Bozen) article? Rarelibra 20:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Why is there even all this voting on here about German name, Italian name, using both, etc. The region has already decided this for all of us. What you all are doing almost amounts to Original Research. What is done in the Province of Bolzano/Bozen, is both names are used: Italian name-German name. On all the road signs, for example, you see Bolzano-Bozen, Brennero-Brenner, Merano-Meran. It doesn't matter what the majority language speakers are of that town. It doesn't change annually from the number of babies born. I mean, not to offend anyone, but this whole discussion of how to do things is almost crazy. :) This is a mixed Italian-German region of Italy, the names of the towns are as I just posted. Stop trying to come up with guidelines out of thin air. Respect both groups in Bolzano/Bozen which make this province and region so wonderful. It is Roman, it is Italian, it is German. Full stop. Taalo 03:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

If we follow this rationale, we have to move a lot of Belgian, Luxembourgish, Swiss, Canadian, Spanish (Catalonian, Galician, Basque, ..), Dutch (Frisian), German (Sorbian, Danish) and British (Welsh, Gaelic, Irish) names to double, triple or quadruple names as well. Don't you see that's ridiculous? I can give you plenty of examples of places with road signs in two or three languages, but they won't have all those names in their article titles. Bolzano is an official name for the town, so is Bozen. Bolzano-Bozen is not one name, it's two combined. All alternative names are given in the first line, and there are redirects. For the zillionth time: this has nothing to do with politics, or respect for minorities. Show me one encyclopedia that has double names for article titles. BTW have you read Wikipedia:No original research? I don't see how that applies here. Markussep 19:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Every region has different rules: in Quebec, every place has one official name: Trois-Rivières, Quebec (not Three Rivers), Thetford Mines, Kingsey Falls, Quebec etc. This also holds for New Brunswick, where English and French are both official languages: St. George, New Brunswick, but Saint-Léonard, New Brunswick. In Switzerland, officially blingual places with two names are Brienz/Brinzauls and Biel/Bienne (with a slash in the article name!). In Catalonia only Catalan names are official. In Belgium, only the Municipalities of the Brussels-Capital Region have two names.   Andreas   (T) 20:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I just visited the homepage of Biel/Bienne, interesting. It's not so easy to find out what's the official name, you're probably right, but the double name is not used all the time. For instance, you won't find "Bienne" on the German pages, or "Biel" on the French pages. "Biel" is used predominantly on the English pages, and once "Biel/Bienne". I think I'd prefer the article name to be Biel (Britannica also uses Biel) rather than Biel/Bienne. About Belgium, I'm not sure whether the municipalities with linguistic facilities have more than one official name, Brussels Capital Region indeed 2 official names. But the question here is what should be the name of the wikipedia article, and that's not necessarily the official name(s). Markussep 16:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] **OFFER TO MEDIATE** (please respond to Lar)

Please read Lar's offer and respond accordingly: Talk:Trentino-South_Tyrol

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