Talk:Colloidal silver

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[edit] Colloidal silver

There are so many paid "Debunkers" on the web it is hard to get to the truth. Any Links to quackwatch are suspect. THis guy is a paid hack subsidized by organizations supporting the pharmaceutical companies- that was proven in a court of law. Colloidal Silver is approved by the FDA for bandages allowing the claims that it has antimicrobial properties. Gargling with it has widespread testimonials for it's ability to shorten sore throats. Topical application of 100ppm solution to herpes sores results in very fast healing.

Can we get some verification on those claims? For example, I can't find anything reliable about the Space Shuttle and colloidal silver anywhere in a quick google search. All it comes back with is a bunch of CS "nutritional supplement" sites making that same claim, but no source for the claim.
Google is based on the most popular sites, the most visited are shown first. In other search engines you can pay money to get higher rank. Go to the burn-ward in the hospital if you want answers or talk to people who nurse newborn babies.
You have also made a number of questionable edits today. Would you mind filling out the edit summary explaining the reason behind your changes when you make an edit? eaolson 01:44, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I just had someone remove a fact link to Quackwatch simply because it was to Quackwatch. [They also removed a second link for the same fact that was to a pro-silver site with a viewpoint contrary to Quackwatch's.] This seems entirely unreasonable. I don't personally think that Quackwatch is free of bias. Nor is the AMA. Nor is the person who is upset with Quackwatch. Nor am I. We all have our biases. But Quackwatch is endorsed by reputable, mainstream organizations such as the AMA, US News and World Report, and Forbes magazine. [1] Would links to those organizations be reverted away as well? This seems ridiculous. 12.36.115.67 08:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC) qkeith

"Continued use of colloidal silver may result in argyria". How does one use colloidal silver?
S.

Changed to "ingestion". Use as a disinfectant on nonliving surfaces does not cause argyria. Use of silver on burns can also cause argyria, but I'm not sure what form of silver is used on burns, and I'd rather be gray than die of infected burns. -phma

Volts are not "passed through" but rather "put across." Seeing as how colloidal silver is bullshit anyway, I guess it doesn't matter.

I fail to see how silver in any form is related to bovine fecal matter. Unfortunately any "cure" is going to have side effects. It is up to the individual to learn as much as possible about what they have been prescribed. This includes F.D.A. approved drugs and "natural" treatments. Speaking from personal experience. I have been on fire. I received second & third degree burns on my forearms, neck, earlobes and collerbone area. I was taken to U.C. DAVIS in Sacramento. They are a trauma center and also have a burn unit that is at top in regards to advances in treatment. I was given a topical cream for my burns, called Silvadene. I only used it a couple of times, as I "tarnished" where it was applied. I switched to a vera/E solution that I made myself. I cannot honestly say that the cream I was given would not have worked, my decision was based more on esthetics. Point being is that there must be some sort of truth to silvers anti-(infective,septic,biotic) qualities or they (hospitals) wouldn't use it, or maybe, we can come up with a much darker reason for its use.


Comment from Helmar: Regarding argyria: the amounts you have to ingest over an extended period of time to contract it vastly exceed the amounts one indigests using the electrical method of producing CS (instructions followed, of course) and then using it topically, read: when the need arises.

Sorry Helmar, but that's not true. The fact that people consuming electrolytic colloidal silver have, in fact, acquired severe cases of argyria is ample proof that it is not true. You reference to "(instructions followed, of course)" is the No true Scotsman fallacy. -- Securiger

The main page says "Use to disinfect unsafe water", but then goes on to say "...CS... has been claimed to kill various microorganisms", and then even questioning its efficacy in an in vivo environment. This is a direct contradiction, because what does "disinfect unsafe water" mean if not killing microorganisms, and making it safe for an invivo use, read: drinking water.

"even questioning its efficacy in an in vivo environment". I can't understnad what you meant to say there, unless you misunderstand the difference between in vitro and in vivo. It's efficacy in vitro is not questioned (quote "While high concentrations of colloidal silver will certainly kill many bacteria in vitro")—it's just that it has no particular advantages over anything else. Questioning its efficacy in vivo is limited to the far, far too mild statement that "it is controversial". In reality it is a good deal more than controversial, but on WP we like to say things mildly to be NPOV. -- Securiger

I have been using self-made CS for several years now, internally and externally - with astounding results and without any side-effects. I take it every time a cold tries to get hold or on skin infections. As and aside, CS, ozonated olive oil, bee pollen balm and food-grade hydrogen peroxide are my only "medicines".

Read "Anecdotal evidence" to understand why this is irrelevant. -- Securiger

There is ample documentation available that testify to the efficacy and safety of CS, and I will soon amend them to the current entry on CS, which is misleading and not giving CS the credit it deserves.

That would be introducing serious bias which I would feel obliged to balance by bringing out much stronger criticisms. The article currently attempts NPOVness by being very mild in its criticism of internal use of colloidal silver, just as it also isn't promoting. We don't even begin to mention the pyramid schemes and shonky fly-by-night dealers who have been pushing it; nor the fact that the "controversy" has practically 100% of real experts lined up on the "anti" side, with the "pro" side consisting entirely of people who believe medicine is some sort of conspiracy; nor that the known mechanisms for colloidal silver killing bacteria cannot work in vivo, nor indeed in the presence of large amounts of healthy tissue. -- Securiger

As an aside, any outdoor water purifier contains carbon to filter out larger particles and silver to kill the microorganisms. They've been in use for decades, yet no one doing trekking or who requires such filters seems to complain of contracting argyria.

First: the majority of water purifiers do not contain silver at all--but a few do. Second, we are talking there about solid silver particles, not colloidal silver; the person drinking the water is not ingesting any silver. Third: in vitro =/= in vivo. OK? -- Securiger 16:12, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] CS and argyria

Dear silver-interested people. I am Michael, i studied human medicine long time ago, but i am now in a complete different business (meteorology) and i have nothing to do with any silver-business. I wrote some time ago a webpage in german language concerning cs and its possible side-effects, med. applications of silver and so on... I just translated it myself in a "quick and dirty" way into simple English. It should not be used as an English lesson but rather as a text to find keywords for further exploration of the internet or libraries / medline as far as cs or silver is concerned.

translation is here: http://www.redecke.de/michael/silver.htm (without ads of course)

After reading that text it will be clear that the content there is quite different from the article's content. I think therefore that the article's content should be changed, and i will participate in modifying it in the future, i want to do it together with other users here. Michael Redecke 16:46, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I deleted "for 2-3 minutes per glass" as it take a lot longer than this to make CS. For 32oz of 50'C initial temperature distilled water it takes more than 2-hours to make CS that with daily external use is effective against body odor bacteria for a week. The best shelf life for CS I produced was 2 weeks (again this refers only to use as a deodorant) and took 4 hours using 20'C water. I removed the voltage only when the current levelled off which occured at 9.5mA. When 'cooked' for an hour less the effectiveness period dropped from 14 to 6 days. I added external link to http://www.silver-colloids.com/Pubs/pubs.html At the bottom of this web page is a free scientific booklet/PDF written by Professor Ronald J. Gibbs in 1999. Gibbs was director of the Center for Colloidal Science at the University of Delaware for about 20 years. Gary C 29 June 2005 07:43 (UTC)

[edit] Sources for claim not all cs causes argyria

On the page there is a wee bit of controversy over whether all methods of cs production/ cs preparations cause argyria or whether it is only poorly made or constant voltage methods. While there is no definitive evidence either way (apart from bountiful anecdotal evidence which rightly doesn't count) on what causes argyria (as cs isn't patentable so there is no incentive for companies to carry out expensive tests, especially clinical trials on people) there is evidence that the constant current method of cs production produces smaller particles (or at least the particle size doesn't increase as the process continues as voltage reduces as the conductivity of the water increases, thus constant current is maintained & current doesn't increase splitting larger particles of silver off into the cs as in the constant voltage method)[2] Also see [3] for info on argyria & the quantities of silver required to cause it & info from FDA saying no reported cases of Argyria.

Argyria is typically caused by compounds that are molecularly bound to silver (usually protein compounds), or ingestion of large quantities of large article size (constant voltage) cs, or at least have been in all the cases I've seen (Rosemary Jacobs & Stan Jones most high profile.[4]

There is a research paper [5] measuring the amount of silver accumulating in the body with cs taken daily for around 3 months which concluded that "Ingestion of properly prepared CS does not result in silver accumulating in the body." This implies that as argyria is caused by accumulation of silver there is a low risk of argyria (Of course it doesn't prove you can't get Argyria from properly made CS as it is impossible to prove a negative). While these sources are, mostly, pushing cs there is the fact that on cs any source is even for it or against it as there is no incentive (other than scientific curiosity) to carry out often expensive research. Nevertheless I hope these links persuade you that not all cs is going to cause cs. I'll revert the last change to the page in anticipation of this. AllanHainey 07:59, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry Allen ! 3 links out the 4 you cited are typical ads-pages for CS, and the link to Mr S. Geigle shows also ads for colloidal silver on that page. Your link (4) to Mr Altman s personal „report“ has never been reviewed or published as scientific valid article. It is also not medline-listed, the author (engineer of metallurgy/not a doctor) is unknown in the medline. The disclaimer on that text is also very strange and completely uncommon for a real scientific paper. Usually the author of a published paper wishes his paper seen as a guide, and not to be seen as „not meant to be a personal guide for...“. Furthermore we should not base the content in this wikipedia article on texts that can be found on webpages of companies selling machines producing CS. We have ads and spam enough in the internet. I hope you agree this time. Many scientific and reviewed articles published so far say clearly that argyria occured after inhaling or ingestion of elementar silver (for instance inhaling silver-dusts, contact with silver earrings and so on). Some reference: Author Mackison F. W wrote in 1981: „Silver metal and soluble silver compounds can cause discoloration or blue-grey darkening of the eyes, nose, throat, and skin..“ and Friberg L wrote in 1986: „..Repeated exposure to silver salts or colloidal silver by inhalation or ingestion brings about effects classically described as generalized argyria...“ many other papers say the same, must i leave a long list here ? In the meantime, the published articles (in scientific journals) concerning argyria after use of electrically made colloidal silver form a real pile on my desktop. Please tell us, from where your opinion comes from that there seems to be a debate in the scientific world, that argyria should not develop after ingestion of elementar silver or colloids ? Your opinion „typically develops“: what do you mean ? BTW: the patent-question is completely irrelevant here, the dietary-supplements industry (not only in the USA) has its own powerful „lobby“ and is a very „healthy“ business. Michael Redecke 10:28, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I am not asserting that argyria doesn't develop after ingestion of elemental silver or colloids, but that there are different methods of colloidal silver, some of which haven't led to any cases of argyria that I know of (constant current)(mostly this is personal & anecdotal experience as I know of pleanty of folk who have used cc cs for years with no ill effects - but personal/anecdotal evidence has no place in an encyclopedia) as particle size of cs is always a lot lower than the other methods such as constant voltage (& especially silver salts, silver compounds etc which are very different to cs).
I'd say that most info on cs (for or against) is accompanied by ads or os put out by someone selling something as cs isn't (doesn't have to be) independently assessed by FDA, etc (as it isn't worth a company's while paying for tests to meet FDA approval as they can't have sole right to sell cs, as unpatentable) as it costs money to carry out research.
I take your point about link (4), I don't know anything about how proper research papers are presented. I don't really agree with you that all types of cs result in argyria & the quotes you give don't seem to distinguish between cc cs & silver salts/silver compounds but I won't re-revert the article as I don't want to get into a editwar over this.
By the way if it isn't any trouble could you add a list of those research papers you refer to as I may check them out of interest. AllanHainey 11:51, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Dear Allan ! you are dividing info concerning CS in pro and against info, but you forget that there is plenty of neutral non-biased info available too. In medicine, somebody promoting or offering a specific drug must show that it is effective, not harmful and that there is a reasonable balance between benefit and side-effects (and costs). It is not the duty of any patient / customer to demonstrate dangers or uselessness of a particular drug or therapy. Here we must consider that this article is read by many people, some seeking help, some beeing perhaps a bit confused, and in case of doubt we should be very careful with our statements. We have a responsibility. I will compile such a list for you in the next days and leave it at your talk-page if you don t mind. Concerning preparation: there are some other known ways for cs-preparation: a) using colloid-mills b) light-arc with ag-electrodes under water c) electrically using const. voltage with or without current limiter or using const current (and/or both time limited) d) using alternate tension or even HT (drinking-water ionators on large passenger-vessels) and e) pure chemical procedures (reduction of ag-salts). Michael Redecke 20:04, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Can I suggest that the discussion about which kinds/types/forms of CS that may or may not cause argyria would be more appropriate on the argyria page itself? I think a mention of it is appropriate here, since at least some CS does cause argyria, but the discussion of the condition should be on the condition's page. eaolson 20:24, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] nonsense on colloidal generators

The description of a colloidal generator using batteries is pure nonsense. This is simple electrolysis, either constant V or I.

This process produces 90% silver ions, which turn to silver chloride in the stomach and has no effect.

See [6]

--207.194.162.118 16:32, 30 August 2005 (UTC) EricG


hello Eric G ! Your reference [1] is maintained by Francis S. Key, who received this nice certified letter from FDA in dec 2004: http://www.fda.gov/foi/warning_letters/g5126d.htm and at the same time your [1] tells us what „...good science in the field of colloidal silver....“ should be. Imho its better to take a look at peer-reviewed scientific literature. silver to ingest makes no sense. Ionic or not. http://www.redecke.de/michael/silver2.htm michael Redecke 19:32, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Preparation

I've moved the preparation methods to their own section. I put that section at the bottom because I think a person coming to an encylopedia to find out about something would be more interested in "what is is" rather than "how to make it." This is also not a comprehensive list of preparation methods, and I suspect is just how people make it to use as a nutritional supplement. eaolson 14:36, 10 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] A short note on the link to www.quackwatch.org

It should be noted that although quackwatch claims to be impartial, it has been proven, sometimes in court, that the person behind the website has been wrong on many occassions. Mr Barrett goes beyond mere criticism straight into fanatical debunkery. Therefore, I would consider the link to his website to be taken with the caution of possible bias.

Source please? The only thing I'm aware of being "proven" is that Mr Barrett accepted money from a pharma company to speak at a conference, and he has been quite upfront about it. 70.19.74.231 17:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mark Metcalf

Note that the Mark Metcalf mentioned in the Controversy section is not Mark Metcalf the actor. At least, judging by the photos on the Web, I've been able to find, they look nothing alike. eaolson 00:45, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

i know that colloidal silver - mark metcalf, he is a former musician, he was in the band of german singer Nina Hagen. he is more than convinced to use that cs btw, and he is active in the colloidal silver business, so not to be considered a neutral source of information. Redecke 01:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Argyria and particle size

Some edits are popping up suggesting that argyria doesn't happen if the particle size is small, or that it's because "impurities" stick to the particles making them bioaccumulate. If this is true, it needs verification, not just blind assertion. eaolson 04:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting major changes

I'm reverting some huge changes made today by 208.54.221.246. They appear to be major cut-and-paste jobs from unspecified other sources, with footnote numbers even still intact. They don't all appear to be relevant to the article, either. Formatting alone would be a huge job. eaolson 02:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

it was i who edited that hugh article. i cut and pasted it from my own files which I WROTE every word of. if you find it elsewhere it was stolen from me.every word of it is true and factual. all the footnotes in the extensive biblio are applicable. this was my first edit so i probably didn't do it right. did you not see the quotes from the U.S. NAVY corpsmans manuals?????????
i also edited an empty file on colloidal gold. i notice it too was deleted but in it's place was a great article on colloidal gold which seemed to have it's basis in my article. i'm ok with that.
why can't you do the same with colloidal silver since i furnished more than enough STUDIES to give you a head start on it.
PS. i tried to contact you otherwise but couldn't find any way to do so. the contact us just went around in a circle. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.112.36.216 (talk • contribs) 09:19, May 24, 2006.
The effort you went to is certainly appreciated. But you also put an enormous amount of information, almost completely unformatted, into the article at once. My guess is that you are a new editor of Wikipedia. May I gently suggest you revew the Getting Started section of the help file? I would also suggest you register a user name. The edit to this talk page was made by 66.112.36.216, but the edits to the CS page were made by 208.54.221.246. It can be a bit confusing.
Most of your additions seemed to lack the verifiability necessary for inclusion in WP. For example, the statement, "There has never been a known case of ARGYRIA stemming from COLLOIDAL SILVER use" is flat-out wrong. See, for example, [7]. ALL CAPS are also not needed there.
Towards the end of the article, you copied the entire text of an article, "Management of Rheumatoid Arthritis: Rationale for the Use of Colloidal Metallic Gold." Unless you are Dr. Abraham or Himmel (which is certainly possible) this is an outright copyright violation, and needed to be removed immediately. eaolson 17:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How Colloidal Silver is Made

Information on how it is made is very on target for this article. The different methods by which it is made are presented in concise and summary form. It is interesting information and it belongs here. This is not a "detailed how-to" that might more properly belong in wikibooks. It is germane, appropriate and illuminating. Intersofia 15:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not for telling people how to make questionable and possibly unhealthful remedies. Also without a source, the section seemed to be original research. Additionally the Made by colloid mills is or appears from that link to be in error. If you want to include more info on commercial production techniques based on viable references (peer reviewed) then add it in that context and not as a how to do it at home guide as it seems there could be liability problems with the latter. Vsmith 00:16, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
It is merely your POV that it is questionable and unhealthful. It is a fact that colloidal silver is used extensively in hospitals as a topical anti-bacterial and anti-fungal. I believe metallic colloids are made through electrolysis. As a science teacher, you are in a good position to source this in detail if you wish. Also, I think the liability concern is bogus. Intersofia 17:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that "how-to" is probably not the best title for this section. I suggest "Manufacture Methods". I will seek to inform myself better before elaborating this section. Here are some apropos links you might want to read on the subject:* http://www.silver-colloids.com/Papers/FAQ.html * http://cfs.umbi.umd.edu/cfs/reprints/rde/la_19_6236.pdf Intersofia 17:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure that silver colloids can be made by electrolysis, and that appears to be a common method. But that doesn't mean that it's the only way they can be done. I suspect that they can be made by entirely wet chemical methods, as is often done with gold, or by other means. Nevertheless, it is officiall WP policy to not include instructions. I think it would be acceptable to say that these colloids are made by electrolysis, but detailed instructions are inappropriate (see WP:NOT).
I've seen the WP:NOT Don't see anything specific that applies. Could you be more specific please ? Intersofia 03:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Can you provide some verifiable source for silver colloids being commonly used in hospitals? eaolson 17:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I have friends that work in hospitals that have confirmed that they used it routinely. I have not yet searched for a printed or internet source. Intersofia 03:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Seems the FDA agrees with my assessment or POV as well as its Australian counterpart. Read the article, to tell someone how to make something that is banned over-the-counter sales of such products, or their advertisement as providing health benefits is highly questionable and a potential liability issue. It seems silver-colloids.com is rather a biased source - appears to be a marketing outfit pushing so called scientific studies to support their products which are sold by www.purestcolloids.com. Reference to those websites does not help your arguement - links to those websites are simply spam. Vsmith 21:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you aware that the FDA is financed by some of these big pharma concerns that would prefer you use their patent-pending antibiotics? True that the first link I put in seems to be from an outfit selling colloidal silver, but it does seem to be an informed page that speaks to the issue. Notice that the link is in this discussion page, not the article. I meant it as a starting point to discuss material. Argyria, for instance, seems to be associated with ionic silver colloids only, due to the fact that it binds to stomach acids and forms silver chloride. Intersofia 03:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Here's another link, that although heavily pro-colloids, has an interesting list of references at the end. http://www.observations.org/Healing/HealSubj/CollSilvr/Colloidal_Silver.html Intersofia 03:59, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure, as a governmental institution, the FDA is funded by the US government. eaolson 14:43, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, this is no longer the case. The independence and objectivity of the FDA has been compromised. "In 1992, Congress authorized the FDA to collect funds directly from the drug manufacturers." [8] {http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&q=fund+the+FDA+fees+1992&btnG=Search]Intersofia 15:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

It seems like there is a small edit war going on in the External links. One anonymous user keeps adding http://www.colloidal-silver-about.com [9] and http://www.silvermedicine.org [10] without explanation, and other users keep removing them. Perhaps the anon user can suggest why these links should be included?

I'm of the opinion that the colloidal-sliver-about.com link should not be included, just because there's not much information there. And the silvermedicine.org site seems to be commercial, and might be linkspam. If there is useful information at either of these sites, perhaps it should be included in the article, and they can cited. eaolson 14:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I think both links should be included as they offer extended information in comparison to the information which is available at wikipedia. this article about cs is terribly short. the readers need to be provided with additional information and if not wp provides it, there must be links to external sites which provide it.
as for the concrete websites i think that they both offer information which extends the content at wp. about-c-s seems to be objective and should therefore remain. silbermedicine.org seems to be a commercial site, but nevertheless offers a lot of interesting information about cs. it should also stay here. sebastian —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.75.236.10 (talk • contribs) 03:05, June 4, 2006.
The objectiveness of a site is not a criteria for listing it as an external link. The about-c-s site does not cite its sources, and there really is very little information there, most of which is already in the article. It looks to me to be more a site built around AdSense than anything else.
As for silvermedicine, well, from Wikipedia:Reliable sources, one criteria for considering a source is, "Do they have an agenda or conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report?" Clearly, that's true in this case. SM does list a number of references in the article buried in their site. (It seems to me that they misrepresent and overstate what their references say, though.) SM might be a useful source as a link-mine for additional information and sources for this article, though. eaolson 13:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The neutrality of this article is questionable. Particularly the link section, is now entirely anti-colloidal silver POV links. This link, provides substantial scientific discussion on colloidal silver [11]. I will include in link section for balance. Intersofia 15:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
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