Talk:Collective punishment
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Sus scrofa: Please stop inserting unbalanced anti-Israel POV. "Unambigious" and "clear cut" are unambigious and clear cut indications of an anti-Israel POV, as is eliminating any indication that pro-Israel people consider "collective punishment" an anti-Israel code word while maintaining that pro-US people consider it an anti-American code word, the latter being a far more questionable statemtent. Any critical mind looking at the article would see the tenor of language and realize that it is not reliable as is. I'll try to rework the language to make it more balanced, but please take your anti-Israel stance to a discussion board (e.g., here) rather than hashing it out on the article page. Calbaer 20:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm deleting the mention of proportionality (political maxim), since collective punishment can be proportional in the sense of the proportionality (political maxim) article. For example, taking hostage a family member of a terrorist might be the most effective way of achieving a military objective, but it is often considered collective punishment. Even in the sense of proportionality in war, the Japanese American internment was proportional, as it led to the deaths of fewer people, led to the injuries of fewer people, and affected fewer people than Japanese attacks on American interests. Yet it too is often considered collective punishment, and for good reason. Thoughts? Calbaer 22:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Actions have to satisfy several criteria in order not to be considered collective punishment. It is possible to fit the rule of law and still be collective punishment. If you want to make the argument that the "rule of law" in war is the Geneva Conventions and that covers proportionality, then at least you have an argument. Otherwise, proportionality is a main criteria for collective punishment. What about Hussein's killing citizens in Dujail after an assassination attempt? As a dictator, he is law. However, what he did to some citizens was not proportional. It also fails our understanding of "due process" (although that has taken quite a hit lately with the problems the US has discovered with due process).
Your examples of proportional actions are flawed. What I understand you to say is that anything goes so long as it achieves some military goal. Most likely, you don't understand the concept as used in, for example, the Geneva Conventions. This concept has nothing to do with "most effective way of achieving a military objective," or "cost fewer lives." Instead it reserves rights to noncombatants (in the real sense, not the way the US currently uses the term). If someone from my city kills a general, it is "reasonable" to expect some inconveniences, such as short detentions or curfews, etc. If we are beaten while being arrested, mostly likely noone would raise a fuss. If the army cuts off the water, electricity, gas, sewage, etc. to the entire city permanantly, or doesn't lift the curfew periodically to allow for citizens to get supplies, then there is probably a problem with proportionality. Whether or not that is a good tactic to get the assassin is irrelevant. TedTalk/Contributions 01:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hmmm.... I'm not sure what the above contribution has to do with whether or not collective punishment is never proportional. It does state that collective punishment is consistent with rule of law, but that argues for a change to the text, not the topic I had brought up. I am using the concept of Proportionality (political maxim) as linked from the prior version of the article, and this has no reference to the Geneva Conventions. This may be flawed, but if so it should be fixed. I understand the point that collective punishment can violate proportionality. What I am asking is if anyone feels, as per the prior version of the article, that collective punishment must violate proportionality.Calbaer 03:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Can you come up with any real examples of collective punishment that don't contradict proportionality? The two examples you presented don't work. The first is not an example of collective punishment. The second certainly violates proportionality (punishment of the Japanese were out of proportion to their "crimes"). TedTalk/Contributions 11:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia should be a collection of facts proven to be true, not a collection of claims not proven false. If you believe collective punishment always violates proportionality but do not provide any argument for this claim, I can't convince you otherwise. Regarding family punishment not being collective punishment, according to this very article (especially earlier versions), punishing family members of terrorists is a form of collective punishment. Again, if you feel that there are claims made in the article that are flat-out wrong, fix them. And the crimes of the Japanese government by 1942 were far greater than action taken by the U.S. against Americans of Japanese descent. Yes, Japanese-Americans were innocents, but that's the point of collective punishment: It harms innocents. (Also, once again, proportionality as we're using it does not agree with the link formerly in the article. If someone wants to start proportionality (war), that might be useful.) Calbaer 21:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- "Wikipedia should be a collection of facts proven to be true, not a collection of claims not proven false." I have no idea what you mean here. You had presented some "examples" where something was supposedly collective punishment but was also proportional. Unfortunately, they are fatally flawed. I suggested that you might possibly rethink them. It looks like you don't want to. That's OK. I have no intention of moving in on your turf. I simply added what I know about collective punishment and the Geneva Conventions (mainly the 4th), but I have no agenda to push, so I'll move on. Cheers. TedTalk/Contributions 00:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia should be a collection of facts proven to be true, not a collection of claims not proven false. If you believe collective punishment always violates proportionality but do not provide any argument for this claim, I can't convince you otherwise. Regarding family punishment not being collective punishment, according to this very article (especially earlier versions), punishing family members of terrorists is a form of collective punishment. Again, if you feel that there are claims made in the article that are flat-out wrong, fix them. And the crimes of the Japanese government by 1942 were far greater than action taken by the U.S. against Americans of Japanese descent. Yes, Japanese-Americans were innocents, but that's the point of collective punishment: It harms innocents. (Also, once again, proportionality as we're using it does not agree with the link formerly in the article. If someone wants to start proportionality (war), that might be useful.) Calbaer 21:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Can you come up with any real examples of collective punishment that don't contradict proportionality? The two examples you presented don't work. The first is not an example of collective punishment. The second certainly violates proportionality (punishment of the Japanese were out of proportion to their "crimes"). TedTalk/Contributions 11:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
It is interesting that there was a time when Britain or Germany or the US freely used the term "collective punishment" instead of doing it and pretending it is something else. I added some examples of official collective punishment. Certainly there are more, but these I found in the New York Times historical files. In 1914 authorities on the laws of war as they were formulated then said that collective punishment was the only recourse when, say, a partisan sniper shoots a sentry in an occupied country, since the occupiers were unlikely to catch the shooter who will be concealed by the populace, even if the saw him do it. Some said the problem was when you burn the village as a reprisal, you just create 100 more shooters.Edison 05:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Detectable POV going on here
Someone has made repeated use of uncheckable clips from the New York Times as proof that the English used communal punishment in places like 1920s Palestine, Malaya, Kenya, Cyprus etc.
None of the actions of the English in these places resulted in the huge backlash from the population that the actions of other powers have frequently done (eg post-1967 Palestine, Vietnam, Iraq, Chechnya etc).
Either the English were as so nasty that the technique worked (as it did for the Nazis) or else what they were doing was considered proportionate and "fair" to other civilians in the region.
If the latter, then it's not the well-recognised crime of "communal punishment" (whatever themselves called it). MalcolmKing 20:20, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
