Talk:Colditz Castle

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I think this is a fascinating article, featured article material. - Added by 68.77.162.199 on 17 Mar 2005

It would appear everyone else thought so too ;)  ALKIVAR™

Contents 1 Hermann Göring's Title 2 Still to do: 3 Photo queue: 4 Novel? 5 "Sonderlager" 6 "deutschfeindlich" 7 American captives? 8 Use of Liberation 9 Glider table 10 From a native American English speaker whose middling German skills... 11 Deaths? 12 How should we work this data in a less obtrusive way? 13 Structure issues 14 WP:V0.5 review 15 Colditz Castle escape attempts 16 Proposed split of article 17 Contradictory statement

[edit] Hermann Göring's Title

Not to make mountains out of molehills here but is the part about Göring's title in the intro blob even relevant? It seems like a complete tangent to the rest of the information there. I could understand the rank showing some kind of maybe authority when he said what he said, but he was in charge of Luftwaffe operations.

I agree it doesn't seem to be particularly relevant (and he does have his own page). Cjrother 18:34, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

It is relevant for 1 reason... Colditz was technically a Luftwaffe prison, as such Goering was the top most person in charge of Colditz. The title was included to show the guy basically responsible for everything to do with Germany's prison system was the one making the obviously false claim.  ALKIVAR™ 02:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Still to do:

Needs more:

• Colditz as Mental Institution
• Prisoner population changes 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, and 1945

Still to add:

• Section on the Nazi guards in command

  I just added a partial list of the German staff at Colditz!

  rather sloppily though, it has since been spun off and cleaned up.  ALKIVAR™ 05:01, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

• Section on camp appearance and layout using this map
• Unsuccessful escape attempts
• Complete Colditz Castle/List of Colditz Castle escape attempts
• Expand section on life in camp
• Colditz in fiction: TV/Movies/Games
• Find a way to work in images:

  Of Camp:

  [1][2][3][4][5]

  Of Prisoners:

  [6][7][8][9]

  Of Guards:

  [10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17]

Needed to fix:

• Duplicate link removal nothing repeated too badly.
• Copy edit (thanks Bishonen!) / proofread
• There seems to be a contradiction in "Thou Shalt Escape..." section to MI9 article about using Red Cross packages to smuggle in escape tools.
• deutschfeindlich -> volksfeindlich made recommended change, and included proper literal translation.

[edit] Photo queue:

Photo of the French scouts held at Colditz

[edit] Novel?

At the moment, Pat Reid's books are described as novels. This suggests that they were works of fiction with perhaps composite characters and the distortion of factual events. Is this the case or are we actually talking about a memoir? Jooler 12:54, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

They are not outright fiction; however, there are composite characters, fictionalized escape attempts, and other exaggerations made to make the camp larger than life. Pat Reid's accountings seem much more grandiose than say Eggers's or Neave's. Does this help you understand my wording?  ALKIVAR™ 18:37, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I know that the film "The Colditz Story" and the Colditz TV series from the 1970s (both based on Reid's first book) were fictionalised as described above, but I'm asking whether the original book was like this. In the film Pat Reid (John Mills) makes the first home run, but it then pops up a caption at the end saying the in fact Airey Neave made the first home run. In the TV series a character named Pat Grant (Edward Hardwicke) was essentially Pat Reid. I haven't read Pat Reid's book, but it would seem to me that if Pat Reid published a book purporting to tell the story of his experiences in Colditz and it was full of what a less than kind critic might describe as "half truths and outright lies" that it would be difficult for the book to have been taken seriously at the time it was published and would probably have been viewed less than favourably by other former inmates. Have you read the book? Jooler 21:49, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

1. Yes his books are like this. I was referring specifically to his books (which I have read). His books are not full of "outright lies" as I stated earlier, they are exaggerations. And when I previously stated fictinalized escape attempts I refer to events no one else mentions/recollects. That does not mean they are necessarily false/fiction, merely unverified and likely to remain so.
2. Neither Pat Reid or Airey Neave were the first home run. Lt. Alain Le Ray, a French inmate was the first successful escape on April 11 '41, predating the arrival of the British by more than a month. Airey Neave was the first British escape, but he didnt escape until January 4 '42. (see Colditz Castle/List of Colditz Castle escape attempts).
3. as for difficulty to be taken seriously, poppycock. Newspapers regularly exaggerate and play up the story to get sales, his books do this same thing. That does not stop people from believing whats in the newspapers. As for the other inmates, it makes them look larger than life, I strongly doubt extremely pro POV would have been complained about.

Thats my 3 cents worth anyways.  ALKIVAR™ 22:10, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Sonderlager"

The word Sonderlager does not mean "high-security prison", at least not literally. A more literal translation would be "Special Camp", or somesuch. Anyone have an idea why it says "high-security prison" in its translation? —Gabbe 08:10, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

The Nazis only used the term Sonderlager to refer to their "high security" camps. Although that may not be the literal translation of it... that was its actual use. I figured it made more sense to use it as the Nazi's did, rather than the straight German translation.  ALKIVAR™ 09:52, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK. Good enough for me... —Gabbe 10:18, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)ad

[edit] "deutschfeindlich"

Not to nitpick, but "deutschfeindlich" is an adjective in German, so "Anti-Germans" is a wrong translation. Besides, from the view of a native speaker, it just doesn't "sound right". Alternatives would be "deutschlandfeindlich", which would mean something like "enemy of the state", or "volksfeindlich", which was used heavily in Nazi propaganda and can be translated as "treasonous against the people". That would also be corresponding to the national socialist ideal of the "Volk", the people as a group, as opposed to the individual. But again, that's just nitpicking from the native speakers ;)

I understand where your coming from, as a non native speaker of German, I am forced to rely on other translations for my terminology. Both Reinhold Eggars and Henry Chancellor's books use the term "Deutschfeindlich" with the translation of "anti-German". Volksfeindlich seems the most likely replacement candidate based on Nazi propaganda as you mentioned. I was hoping someone who was a native German speaker would help clear this up :) thanks! I will make the changes later today.  ALKIVAR™ 09:48, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] American captives?

The Parker Bros. game I have had since I was a kid (devised by Pat Reid) has the following playing pieces:

Black: German

Red: British

Blue: American

Orange: Dutch

Brown: French

Green: Polish

Although not in the escapee list, were any US prisoners held there at any time, or was it simply an understandable marketing ploy of the game's manufacturer? Dainamo 11:15, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Look for sections about 1944 and Prominente. None of them seems to have escaped, however. - Skysmith 21:23, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Eight Americans were held at Colditz. All arrived in 1944 or 1945, and none escaped or attempted to escape, that I know of. Two were removed by the Germans before the castle's liberation on 16 April 1945. The eight were:

1) Colonel Florimond Duke [at Colditz 23 Ag 1944 till liberation]

2) Lt. J. Le Forsonney [at Colditz 4-21 Ag 1944]

3) Captain G.T. Nunn [at Colditz 23 Ag 1944 till liberation]

4) Major K. Sabadosh [at Colditz 23 Ag 1944 till liberation]

5) Lt/Col W.H. Schaeffer [at Colditz 06 Dc 1944 till liberation]

6) 1/Lt M.C. Shannon [at Colditz 14 Mr 1945 till liberation]

7) Captain A.M. Suarez [at Colditz 23 Ag 1944 till liberation]

8) Lt. J.G. Winant [at Colditz 07 Ap 1945-13 Ap 1945]. A 'Promeninten'

Source: P.R. Reid, Colditz: The Full Story, p. 325. DonBruce 16:38, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Use of Liberation

The article uses the terms liberation, liberated, etc. several times. Given that Dresden was always a German city, wouldn't capture, captured, etc. be more appropriate?

NB. I'd retain it in cases such as liberating the prison though.

Crebbin 17:40, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC).

d

[edit] Glider table

excellently done. simple, easy to read and space-efficient. and borders only when needed to divide data. 69.241.225.95 23:14, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] From a native American English speaker whose middling German skills...

... were at their peak when he lived there for two years about a quarter-century ago, so take for what it is worth. Isn't "Field Marshall of the Empire" somewhat off as a translation for Reichsmarschall? Reich may not be exactly the same thing as "state" (certainly not in the U.S. sense, where Land would be the closest to that perhaps, but in the more general sense of worldwide English usage still not an exact equivalent), but would be closer to that than it would "Empire". I never thought of the Third Reich as being exactly the "Third Empire". Any comments? Rlquall 01:42, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

They attempted to portray themselves as an empire, or at least a return to the power of the Holy Roman Empire, and therefore were very prone to bestowing flowery titles upon each other. From the article on Göring:

In 1939, he became the first Luftwaffe Field Marshall (Generalfeldmarshal) and by a decree on June 29, 1941, Hitler appointed Göring his formal successor and promoted him to the rank of Reichsmarshall, the highest military rank of the Greater German Reich. Reichsmarshall was a special rank intended for Göring and which made him senior to all Army and Air Force Field Marshals.

It appears to me that it was meant as a title similar to say "Commander in Chief", a head of the heads so to speak. Whether it was in actuality an empire is besides the point. Since they referred to themselves as an empire, the title translation's intent, although inaccurate factually, is spot on. But I'm certainly open for debate on a more "appropriate" translation. (although preferably by a native german speaker).  ALKIVAR™ 09:59, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Deaths?

Other than that 1 reported death, was there any other deaths in the castle?

Caused deaths? or deaths of natural causes? I'm doing research on this currently, so it will eventually be added, problem is different sources conflict, so it might be a while.  ALKIVAR™ 03:04, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

1) An older UK POW officer died of a heart attack in 1943?

2) Michael Sinclair was shot while trying to escape on 25 September 1944. Source: P.R. Reid, Colditz: The Full Story, pp. 243-246, 309.

3) and 4) Two Germans committed suicide in the POW part of the castle. Source: Michael Booker, Collecting Colditz, pp. 31-32. DonBruce 16:37, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How should we work this data in a less obtrusive way?

This table is huge, perhaps someone has a better way we can work this in?  ALKIVAR™ 13:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Frequent Visitors to Colditz

Name	Role	Period of service
Brossac, ?	Civilian, Medic	1942
Denzler, Rudolf E.	Civilian, Swiss POW Camp Inspector	?
Eggers, ?	Civilian, Wife of Captain Reinhold Eggers	1940-1945
Hanschmann, Elsa	Civilian, Wife of Corporal Georg Martin Schädlich	1940
Kindler, ?	Civilian, Butcher	1943
Michael, ?	Civilian, Dentist	1941-1942
Mutschmann, Martin	Nazi Gau of Leipzig district	16 Ja 1943
Naumann, ?	Nazi Kreisleiter of the Colditz region	?
Pöhnert, Willie	Civilian, Electrician	1939-1945
Pravitt, Elizabeth	Civilian, Wife of Kommandant Lt. Colonel Gerhard Prawitt	?
Reinert, ?	Civilian, Apprentice to Willie Pöhnert	1941
Schädlich, Erhard	Civilian, Son of Georg Martin Schâdlich	?
Schädlich, Thomas	Civilian, Grandson of Georg Martin Schâdlich	?
'Slim', ?	Civilian, Carpenter	?
Starke, ?	Nazi Ortgruppenleiter of Colditz town	?
Wernicke, Irmgard	Civilian, Daugter of Nazi leader (spied for the POWs)	1943-1945
Wernicke, ?	Nazi leader	1943-1945

[edit] Structure issues

The article as it is currently is in blatant violation of several wikipedia policies, including WP:SP and WP:NPOV. First, the subsections need to changed from slash titles to proper titles, as that form is deprecated (and has been since before they were created). Second, a "suggested reading" list is inappropriate, as it is not wikipedia's place to suggest things or make recommendations, so it should be moved to "List of books about Colditz Castle" or something similarly neutral. Third, the references section is a mess, and could use a good cleanup. The text seems fine, but we shouldn't have blatant, easily correctible violations of basic wikipedia standards in a featured article. I'd just go and fix it, but last time I tried, my changes were reverted without comment. Night Gyr 08:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

In addition, I note that in the FAC nomination for this article, the sole oppose was based on the fair use photos. Does the current status of at least 4-5 fair use photos and diagrams, apparently mostly from the same source, cause a problem in anyone else's mind? -- nae'blis _(talk) 22:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:V0.5 review

This is an excellent article in every respect, but it's a bit obscure for the (very small) 0.5 version. I've moved the listing to the held nominations page, where it will be considered for inclusion in one of the later releases. Kirill Lokshin 02:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that its obscure... several television shows, many many books, and several well recieved movies would counter the "bit obscure" part... not to mention it is a likely candidate for most famous of the Nazi prisons (not counting concetration camps) only prison to give it a run fame wise is Stalag Luft III.  ALKIVAR™ 03:13, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Obscure my eye! - It's the most famous POW camp in the world. Jooler 03:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Colditz Castle escape attempts

This article is growing to the point where it is becoming a daunting read. The part of the article that describes the different escape attempts is self-contained. I suggest that this part of the article be moved to an article of its own titled "Colditz Castle escape attempts". Cowpriest2 21:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed split of article

Within Category:World War II POW camps there is a growing body of articles about Oflags and Stalags. I propose to split this excellent article into its two logical parts:

• Colditz Castle - description and history.
• Oflag IV-C - during WW II

possibly there should be a third article about the excape attempts as suggested above.

Syrenab 02:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Per you comment at WP:MILHIST, I would support splitting the article into two, possibly three parts. As you suggest, a pre-WWII article and a WWII article. Escapes could probably remain in the Oflag IV-C article, although as someone mentioned above, the whole thing has become rather daunting, and a three-way split might be necessary. Carom 13:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I have split the article into two sparate articles

• Colditz, which includes Colditz Castle
• Oflag 4c, the whole of the present article about Oflag IV-C including the escapes. This should be renamed Oflag IV-C, but I have not been successful in opening it under this title - it always redirects back to Colditz Castle.

If this change is approved then the present article Colditz Castle may be deleted and the bew article Oflag 4c moved to the correct name "Oflag IV-C"

I believe that this is the best solution. It fits in with the present organization of Wikipedia for all other Oflags and Stalags, and articles about places.

Syrenab 16:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

There has been no further comment. Split has been completed into two separate articles:

• Colditz, includes history of Castle
• Oflag IV-C, includes stories of escapes.

Syrenab 14:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Joelr31 has reverted to the original article, without any discussion (he never participated in any of the original discussion). If he objects to the way that I split the article, I suggest that he suggest how to do it better, and not just revert. Syrenab 16:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there has been significant discussion at WP:FAR, and Joelito's revert reflects the consensus at FAR as well as the MilHist group, which never supported the split to begin with. Please see the FAR link at the top of this talk page. Sandy (Talk) 18:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradictory statement

This section below is contradictory. Does anyone know which bit is correct?

"Pat Reid claims in Colditz: The Full Story that there were 31 "home runs". It should be noted that he includes prisoners from the hospital and prisoners being transported, who were not directly under Colditz staff control. Henry Chancellor in Colditz: The Definitive History claims 32 escaped but only 15 were "home runs": 1 Belgian, 11 British, 7 Dutch, 12 French and 1 Polish. The difference is that Reid claims any successful escape by an "official" Colditz POW a "home run" where most other historians only consider escapes from the castle or castle grounds itself as a "home run". Also a subject of debate is whether or not Millar's escape should be considered a "home run", but since he is listed MIA (unofficially he is assumed deceased), Chancellor does not count him as such."

-*- u:Chazz/contact/t: 22:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)