Talk:Coffee/Archive 1

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Contents

MSDS:CAFFEINE

MSDS for caffeine is irrelevant to this page; if anything, it fits with caffeine better, and most of the relevant info is already there.—chris.lawson (talk) 04:40, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not 100%

Still not 100% happy with this, but its getting there. Still to come: coffee in cold drinks, coffee-essence, liquid soluble coffee. I also want the wordy paragraphs shifted around a bit and some of the major types extending in details (sensibly)Mat-C 02:54, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Might be nice to include info somewhere on health effects of coffee/caffeine including in relation to alzheimers (I think?) and diabetes (generally positive).Mat-C 02:54, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Also... caffeine levels of fresh/instant/espresso coffee. Mat-C 03:18, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Caffeine levels are related to type/roast of bean and amount of raw grounds used in preparation, not to the method of preparation directly. --VampWillow 08:12, 2004 May 20 (UTC)

I've added in the bits on the drink from coffee; it might still need a bit of slicing and dicing to make it read more smoothly though. Markalexander100 20:05, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nice work, this page is really getting there, and has a picture too now :) Mat-C 22:05, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There is a complete absence of historical information on the origin and development of coffee.

Forms

I've reverted User:Markalexander100's merging back to my previous edit. IMO, drip brew and filter coffee aren't the same. Please take a look at a description of filter coffee I just added. Ambarish | Talk 05:01, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

So is the Indian filter coffee the same as western filter coffee, except that milk and sugar are always added? If so, it would be a subcategory of drip brew. If not, we'll need some kind of disambiguation. Markalexander100 05:32, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
I would say that drip and filter should be integrated. What we are discussing at this point is the method of producing the coffee drink, not in its presentation. Some people like it white (milk/coffee/artificial creamer) or black, some with sugar, flavoured syrups (sugared or sugar-free) and we don't want to see each and every little different presentation getting its own entry. Filter *is* drip; they both use solely gravity to contact the heated water with the coffee grounds and the articles on filter coffee and coffee filter also need to take account of this. Now then, metal filter -v- paper filter qualitative issues anyone? --VampWillow 08:12, 2004 May 20 (UTC)
In coffee_(drink)#Forms, some of the entries are about finished products, like Mocha and Frappuccino. Others are about processes or appliances - drip brew (the article says so), French press etc. As such, I think that needs cleaning up. With that in mind, Indian filter coffee is a specific kind of coffee with specific ingredients (milk and sugar) brewed using the coffee filter. Drip brew indicates it's a method of brewing coffee (this would be called the coffee decoction in India, since "coffee" would mean filter coffee). Lastly, I have no idea what is meant by Western filter coffee - have never heard the term, although I live in the US. Is it common usage? So, if coffee_(drink)#Forms is to comprise kinds of brews that people drink, then drip brew doesn't belong there. If it's to consist of brewing mechanisms, filter coffee would become a sub-category of drip brew, and wouldn't feature in coffee_(drink)#Forms. I'd vote for the former, on the grounds that it's more interesting for people to know about Cappuccino and Latte than about brewing mechanisms. Let's have sections about both! Ambarish | Talk 08:31, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
I typed the above before User:VampWillow's response, and didn't want to edit it after I got an edit conflict. If we're indeed discussing the method of production, then we should be removing Frappuccino, Latte, etc. Right? Ambarish | Talk 08:31, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
This is getting nicely complicated! Forms of brewing and forms of serving should both be covered somewhere, but I'd agree with separating them into two sections. (Incidental: "filter coffee" in the UK means this; I can't vouch for US usage). By "decoction", do you mean that the coffee and water are boiled up together, and then the grounds are filtered out? In which case it would be a brewing method which is different from the drip/western filter method. Markalexander100 08:57, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
Sheesh .. I'm doing this and haven't made my first pot of the day yet! (am about to start on pots, btw, and just created a cross-section image). Frappucino is a trademarked name and, imho, shouldn't have a place here. Ideally I believe there should be four main sections. (i) Preparation of coffee grounds: roasting, grinding, pounding (Turkish coffee is missing), etc., (ii) Preparation of coffee drink: gravity, pressure, steeping, (iii) presentation of drink: the optional extras of sweetening, milk/coffee, foam, lattés, all the rest, and (iv) social aspects. That would give the required information in a 'pedia sort of way I think? --VampWillow 09:28, 2004 May 20 (UTC)
I agree about Frappucino - it is basically a trademark name for an chilled latte. The Grinding section still needs a lot of work, I just haven't had time. I like your organization scheme as well. Wishus 18:58, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
I agree with both of you. Markalexander100 01:28, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Me too! I quite like User:VampWillow's proposal above; BTW, Markalexander100, boiling water is percolated through coffee powder in a coffee filter (http://www.techrose.org/filtercoffee/filtercoffee.jpg - couldn't find a better pic), so I guess the brewing process is similar to preparing coffee in any percolator. The difference is probably only in terminology, the resulting brew is called the decoction; once you had milk and sugar, it's called coffee. Ambarish | Talk 08:41, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
I've had a go at reorganising along User:VampWillow's lines, although I'm sure some tinkering will still be needed. I've moved the Indian filter coffee to Indian filter coffee, and I'll put a dab page in Filter coffee. Markalexander100 04:03, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
nicely done ... have tinkered a bit on the brewing and grinding sections, splitting them into categories. Will try to find time to create more cross-section diagrams! --VampWillow 09:03, 2004 May 22 (UTC)
Thanks to both of you! I shall now stick to adding stuff to Indian filter coffee. Ambarish | Talk 12:40, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
Yikes, I was a happy camper pounding away on my keyboard, adding stuff to Indian filter coffee - especially some nice pics I clicked earlier this week. So I guess this is resolved now? Do I need to worry when adding more stuff on Indian (Madras) filter coffee? Cheeni | Talk Fri Oct 22 19:59:56 2004 (UTC)
Yep, it was resolved by moving Filter coffee to Indian filter coffee and creating a disambig page at Filter coffee. You can go ahead and add stuff. BTW, nice pic! Ambarish | Talk 16:45, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

About drip brew being different from filter... I can vouch that in France, the two are used interchangeably for the stuff made in electric coffeemakers dripping hot water onto grounds held in a filter. --Svartalf 12:28, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I may add that Indian filter coffee is different from drip brew... due to differences in preparation going far beyond the fact that the Indian way dispenses with a layer of paper... and is it just me or does that pot remind me of a percolator (moka pot, Italian coffeemaker). This is definitely a local variant that needs to be by itself, not just "another kind of" filter coffee, while 95% of world population thinks that drip brew and filter are synonymous. --Svartalf 23:23, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Turkish coffee

This article really needs something about Greek/Arabic/Turkish coffeeHarry R 16:08, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Harry R: I agree, write it for us :)

Nice work on all this folks. This is getting pretty comprehensive now.

Indian Filter: still needs work as it looks just like white coffee in its current form. I really like all the different cultural styles and preparation styles on this page (and even more would be great) - could this one either be rolled into White Coffee or differentiated in some way?

How about a "coffee drinking styles around the world" section? (Although per-culture rather than per-locale may be more appropriate). Maybe that's superfluous and already included. Anyway just a thought :)

I like the breaking up of preparation and presentation and its current form, nice work. Mat-C 16:19, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

What's the deal with the description of Turkish coffee? Someone keeps removing the Greek coffee references, then someone else restores it, then the cycle repeats. Should the Greek coffee references be there or not? --Coyoty 03:42, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

It's an ethnic thing. Greeks have strong feelings about Turks, and themselves always call it Greek coffee. It seems to be most generally known as Turkish coffee though, and so that's what we should call it here. (Also, although it's distribution and names in various languages is discussed in the Preparation section, someone wants it repeated in under Presentation. It plainly doesn't have to be in both places.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Latte vs. Latté

To the anon that removed the accent from latté: In my experience the variant with accent has seen more general use than the variant without the accent; I would believe that the version with the accent is most closely intended by the original. I would appreciate an explanation for your logic behind your removal thereof. -- Grunt (talk) 00:27, 2004 Jun 27 (UTC)

Glad to explain. First, English doesn't have accents, although English speakers often copy them from foreign languages in loanwords. Second, the loanword "latte" is from Italian, and the Italian word doesn't have an accent. (Caffe does.) So, I don't think it belongs there.

I don't really care all that much one way or the other, but the ubiquitous Starbucks spells it without the accent. Not that that proves anything, but for an awful lot of Americans, Starbucks is synonymous with specialty coffees like latte. older≠wiser 00:37, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Websters spells it without an accent; it gives the derivation as the Italian caffelatte (one word, no accents), which is a contraction of caffè e latte (grave accent). If it's right, I think no accent wins. Markalexander100 03:01, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)


Fat retention b/c of coffee

A friend of mine said someone on Oprah said that something in coffee causes fat retention...anybody know anything about this? jengod 23:39, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

I really don't know. The ancient Arabs believed coffee caused loss of sleep and loss of manhood. Heck, they even banned coffee for a while on that count (circa 1539 CE). :-) BTW, Oprah? Oprah? *groan* Cheeni 21:38, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's probably taken out of context. The American coffee-drinking habits, with lots of sugar and milk in their coffee cups, is probably the real culprit. The elevated heart rate from the caffeine contributes an insignificant amount of calorie-burning throughout the day, but not enough to help you lose or gain weight. The problem may be the mood-swing that it can induce in certain people, which may lead to more eating to compensate for the caffeine low. Either way, I have never heard anything about this and a quick google search brought back nothing useful. Julius.kusuma 14:33, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Coffee apparently raises cortisol levels, which encourages fat retention, especially abdominal fat retention (as does stress, because cortisol levels rise in response to stress). I didn't do an extensive search, but here's an article with basic information about cortisol: http://www.janethull.com/newsletter/0404/cortisol.php

Marqaha

Hi, this article is looking good. I recently ran across (in the zine Too Much Coffee Man, as a matter of fact) a mention of an Arabic word, "marqaha," which means something like "coffee euphoria," -- it's a specific term for the buzz you get from drinking coffee.

After googling about a bit, it does seem that the word exists:

"Coffee-drinkers even coined their own term for the euphoria it produced — marqaha." http://www.superluminal.com/cookbook/essay_coffee.html

I found the existence of this word interesting, but I wasn't sure it belonged in the article (perhaps just in Wiktionary...). In any case, now I've mentioned it. :)

Presentation

I was thinking of editing the "Presentation" section to reflect the fact that "White Coffee" is commonly called a "Flat White" in Australia, and "Black Coffee" is commonly called a "Long Black", but thought that there is probably further variations on this in other countries. Perhaps we could have a table with the regional terms for each style of presentation? Mmmmm, coffee! Malcolmj 00:23, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Medical uses of coffee/caffeine

Someone earlier mentioned uses of coffee for Alzheimer's and diabetes. If this subject is treated in the article, its use in migraine headache should also be mentioned. Some migraineurs can abort a migraine by drinking a strong cup of coffee as they feel it coming on. Also, caffeine is combined with several headache (and probably non-headache) drugs for a different reason - it intensifies the potency of the companion drug.--Harrykaplan 16:06, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"probably non-headache) drugs" Yes indeed, it's in Midol, for instance. But perhaps there should just be mention of a few uses of the pure drug, with the rest moved to caffeine. A mention of the traditional coffee enema here would be appropriate, though.


Coffee Bean Redirect

I'm not so sure that "coffee bean" should redirect here, as it is the informal (and most common) name for The Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf. Ask most people from Southern California, and they'll tell you that the term and the store are synonymous. --Hersch 21:40, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

If people are looking for the store and search "Coffee bean", I'm sure that they won't be surprised to arrive at coffee. If people are searching for the coffee bean, and search "Coffee bean", I'm sure that they'd be pretty surprised to arrive at some californian store. Madd4Max 12:34, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Hersch. (I too live in So Cal.) If someone were looking for the store, searched for "coffee bean", and got Coffee, what would they do if they didn't remember the full name of the store? Whereas if an unsuspecting user arrived at The Coffe Bean & Tea Leaf after searching for "coffee bean", getting to Coffee is just a click away from the first sentence of that page. —BenFrantzDale 14:36, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
If I didn't remember the name I would search for "coffee bean company". It doesn't make sense that the company becomes more important than an encyclopedic term, and "coffee beans" is one. The popular southeast asian drink "Bandung" should not be made more important than the actual city of Bandung, in which nobody knows what Bandung the drink is. However, "Bandung" the drink is briefly mentioned at the bottom of the page Bandung. Southern Californians will have to deal with it ;-). I'm in agreement with WormRunner. Julius.kusuma 17:01, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As someone who does NOT live in southern california, I find the idea of a world-class encyclopedia linking first to some local chain rather than the world usage of coffee bean idiotic. If we want to mention a commercial site at all it should be a small disambig note. -- WormRunner | Talk 15:14, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree with WormRunner, "coffee bean" should definetely redirect here. KFP 15:20, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. — Asbestos | Talk 16:00, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
How about a compromise. As Coffee bean already points to Coffee, what about Coffee Bean redirecting to The Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf. Naturally there would be a link at the top of the page to Coffee in case someone got lost. --Hersch 04:29, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Claude Saks

Check out Claude's book "Strong Brew: One Man's Prelude to Change". A most excellent introduction to the commodity trading aspect of coffee, a rough and nasty business, but a great way to see the world. Following is a review from Amazon.com. Saks calls this book a prequel to his Inescapable Journey: A Spiritual Adventure (1995), an account of his spiritual quest, which led him to Taoism and Buddhism. In some ways, Saks' story parallels that of Mark Ritchie, who wrote God in the Pits: Confessions of a Commodities Trader (1989), though there are important differences. Ritchie founded a firm that grew to become the world's largest options trading company, his relationship with his father profoundly affected his life, and his own Christian beliefs conflicted with the demands and trappings of his livelihood. But unlike Ritchie, who used his father's altruism as a model, Saks sought his father's respect by following him in business. The Sakses traded coffee on the commodities markets, but they also fought constantly. They split, and Claude formed his own company, which became the largest importer of coffee in the U.S. Saks provides a highly personal account of what it was like in this fast-paced, competitive business as he traveled across Africa and East Asia. David Rouse

Straw poll

There's currently a straw poll about an image at Talk:Coffee percolator. I cross-posted to here as that article gets very little traffic.

Thanks, — Asbestos | Talk 20:59, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

History of Coffee

I was thinking of editing the history of coffee. I can offer a timeline of coffee that would be of interest to everyone. I'm the author of a new book called "The Truth About Caffeine" which is published by SCR Books, LLC. An example is below.

525 - Early in the sixth century, the Abyssinian nation (what is now known as the modern-day country of Ethiopia) unknowingly brought wild coffee plants to the Arabian Peninsula when its troops invaded the country of Yemen.

600 - While dates vary from 600-850, most sources credit the discovery of coffee to an Abyssinian goatherd called Kaldi who notices his goats acting strangely after eating the berries from a nearby bush. Seeing the increased feistiness of the goats, Kaldi tastes the berry himself, and appreciating the jolt of energy - without any way of foreseeing the phenomenal global trend he was starting – begins more than a millennium of coffee-ingesting.

650 - After learning about coffee from Kaldi, local monks experiment with the beans. The monks tried mixing them with water, as well as drying the coffee berries and transporting them to far-off monasteries, because they understand the power of the beans to keep them awake during prayers.

Are you the one who added the timeline to the history section, which was recently reverted? This seemed like a worthwhile addition to me, but it's perhaps too lengthy to be part of this article. I suggest adding it as a seperate article Timeline of coffee and adding a "See also" link to the History section. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:14, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Additional note... I think "The Women's Petition Against Coffee", 1674 should be given a mention. As early evidence of coffee's ills. I saw it in a newspaper article today. [1] Mdrejhon 15:13, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Coffee bean varieties

I expanded this section a bit, including more information on the coffee growing regions for the different varieties, and tried to seperate the list of beans themselves from the discussions of coffee blends and other subjects. If other blends merit special attention, perhaps that can be a new list, but I think mixing blends and beans confuses the subject somewhat. Hopefully more varieties can be added as people think of them. TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:19, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Astounding that there is no mention of Colombian coffee at all !!!!!! (world's second largest coffee producer). Was this a conscious omission? 67.188.11.166 04:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, here is your chance to do exactly that, enter all the details you feel ought to go into the article about Colombian coffee. That's what we Wikipedians do, we fill in what is missing. Dieter Simon 23:25, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

latte

Latte: "It is stronger than cappuccino because it comprises 50% espresso, 50% milk (compared to cappuccino's one-third espresso, one-third steamed milk and one-third frothed milk)."

this is wrong im'a change it. --Ballchef 11:52, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Benefits / Risks sections

Some of the things stated as facts in the Benefits/Risks sections seem like a study may have reached that conclusion, but are not necessarily widely accepted facts. I don't know enough about these studies to edit those sections confidently, but could someone who knows a bit more consider whether each item in those sections is just a claim based on a study, or a widely accepted fact? - James Foster 08:39, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree. In particular, the bit about curing asthma seems dubious at best. My understanding of caffeine use in the older migraine medications was for its cerebral vasoconstrictor effects - not anything to do with analgesic potentiation bignoter

Removed the initial paragraph mentioning caffeinism and its reputed relation to psychiatric disorders. Caffeinism is a neologism. Additionally the claim its causes psychiatric disorders is not supported by credible scientific studies. Vassyana 03:30, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I additionally removed the paragraph detailing caffeine and replaced it with an introductory reference to caffeine. Vassyana 03:30, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Some of these studies were paid for by coffee producers. Coffee 12:40, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The above was written by 85.210.20.208. There's no such user as Coffee at this time. Image:Tycon.jpgCoyoty 02:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Economic Aspects of Coffee

I have read frequently that coffee is the world’s second most traded commodity, (After oil). I have thought about this for quite a while, and the numbers just don’t jive. Here is my math (please correct as you see fit, all numbers approximate):

Annual coffee production (2002) 115,800,000 60 kilo bags (http://www.nybot.com/minicoffee/qcoffee.pdf) =6.95 billion kilos @ 2.2 lbs/kilo = 15.3 billion lbs That included robusta, but let’s be generous and say $0.50/lb = $7.65 billion

Daily oil production ~ 72 million bbl (Click Here (www.worldoil.com) I am a bit conservative) 1 bbl/day production ~ 55 tons (US)/yr =72,000,000*55*2000 ~7.9 trillion lbs =72,000,000*365 ~26 billion bbl/yr @ $35/bbl (we in Texas thank you for this, by the way) ~$920 billion

So on one hand, we have 7.9 trillion lbs of oil vs 11 billion lbs of coffee

Or

$920 billion of oil vs $5.5 billion of coffee

My point is that there is too much distance between these numbers for coffee to be #2 (I think that copper production is worth about $18 billion, for example: Click Here (mmsd1.mms.nrcan.gc.ca))

I think that this is a meme that is left over from the 1930s or something (I think it is mentioned in Uker’s) that just keeps getting repeated.

But I am willing to be corrected…

I don't actually know, but that doesn't stop me from reacting :) . Mostly, what this comparison can be taken to say is not so much how big the coffee market is, but how humongous the oil market is. Almost 20 times bigger by your calculation. But which figures do you use? About 0.2 usd per kg of coffee. Is that the price the farmers get or the intermediary companies and at what shackle along the (re)selling chain? And do you use the same basis for the oil-calculation? (I cant make heads or tails of the units you're using, so I can't do any proper calculations for myself.) DirkvdM 08:12, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

When I did those calculations oil was at $35/bbl and coffee at about $0.50/Lb (or $1.10/kg - all usd). Since both have about doubled. And you are correct that I don't factor in the value add that coffee gets by going through the Starbucks chain I would guess about 34g of ground, roasted coffee in a $4.00 latte) but then I don't calculate the value add in the oil industry either.

Mainly, I am questioning the fact that "everyone knows" that coffee is the second most traded commodity. It simply doesn't seem possible. Look at my copper calculations. You can link though on my reference sites for the origen of my data.

Dan

The sensible values to use for both coffee and oil are the spot values on the commodity exchanges, ISTM. The World Bank Pink Sheets have the average current prices for many commodities, coffee included, but trading volume is a bit harder to come by. (If they're there, I don't see it.) Still, the fact that the copper market appears to be bigger than that for coffee is telling. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:33, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
  • [Copying my comment from WP:FAC to here] re: second most-traded commodity -- I find data to suggest it is not true. See for example UNCTAD Handbook of Statistics (caution: large PDF), specifically section 4.2A, beginning on page 156 (print page number)/182 (PDF page number). The interpretation depends a bit on what one considers a commodity, but it's hard to make coffee number two under any definition. --Tabor 21:09, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
  • More info: found one source that ascribed the quotation to the Interational Coffee Organization. Looking at the bottom of this page, it appears that in fact what they say is much more qualified:
[Coffee] is one of the most valuable primary products in world trade, in many years second in value only to oil as a source of foreign exchange to developing countries.
It looks to me like this may have been misunderstood/misquoted and perpetuated. --Tabor 21:26, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Introduction

Replaced biased ending referencing "caffeinism" with "Its potential benefits and hazards have been, and continue to be, widely studied and discussed." Vassyana 16 October 2005

Removed reference to "caffeinism". Again. "Caffeinism" is a neologism with little, if any credibility. It is notable that Caffeinism was very controversial and now leads to caffeine. Vassyana 03:18, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Recent reverts

First, before anyone goes demanding a certain protocol, it would be minimially courteous to create an account. It's very difficult to carry on a discussion with an IP address.

Really? Does it strain your mental abilities? Do you not like having a name you can make fun of? How is it "difficult"? Signing with an IP address introduces no discursive difficulties. You know, I checked out this page and, in all the advantages of registering that it lists, "not being looked down upon by regular users" isn't on the list. Maybe you should add it. 148.104.5.2 22:51, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
It would hardly be an issue if you'd done more to recommend yourself instead of coming in and repeatedly vandalizing the article. Believe it or not, many of us here regard other editors as people and not simply input devices attached to the computers they use. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:01, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Be nice, 148.104.5.2. See WP:CIVIL. There are at least two problems with talking to an IP address, but it's true that neither is that big a deal. 1) A lot of people have dynamic IP addresses, which change every time they log on. 2) It's harder to remember a number than a name, so it's harder to determine if edits or comments are from the same person. Phrased differently, all IP addresses tend to blur into one big, hazy identity. That said, if you have some reason you don't want an account, nobody should try to stop you. If you have an account and just enjoy baiting people anonymously once in a while, that's a different matter.—Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:07, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
TCC insults me for not registering, calls me a vandal for taking the article further, and then claims I regard others as input devices, and when I protest this, you tell me to be civil? This is outrageous! I'm definitely going to add "not treated as a second-class citizen" to the "benefits of registering" article. 148.104.5.2 18:03, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
See, now you're looking for insults where there are none. Not registering doesn't make you a second-class citizen, but if you're going to insist on the courtesies that benefit you, as you insisted on this discussion, then I think some reciprocal courtesy on your part is called for. I simply prefer to talk to a person and not to a machine; and an IP address identifies a machine, not a person. If you take impute any further meaning to what I said, you're taking it beyond my intention. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:28, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
TCC said "it would be minimially courteous to create an account," which isn't much of an insult, but I suppose you could make the case that the implication that you are discourteous is a minor insult. You asked TCC "Does it strain your mental abilities? Do you not like having a name you can make fun of?", implying that TCC was both stupid and apt to name-calling. That isn't civil at all. The accusation of vandalization came after your comment which prompted my asking you to remain civil; it probably should not have been made. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 19:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Possibly not. But as you point out below, edits that make bad writing deliberately worse indeed border on vandalism, if not quite as obviously as blanking an article or replacing it with nonsense text. Repeatedly insisting on it with multiple re-reverts I thought crossed the line. But I could be wrong. TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:40, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
What problem might anyone have with creating an account? I agree that there should be a low threshold for newbies, but creating an account when you get serious with editing Wikipedia is a matter of courtesy for the reasons you mention. DirkvdM 07:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Wrong. Anonymous users have the right to edit and discuss on Wikipedia just like everyone else. You know, the funny thing is, I've seen a lot of left-wing Wikipedia users gripe about people not registering because it's "so simple", but when you point out that applying for a job is "so simple", they manage to come up with excuses for others! 148.104.5.2 18:03, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
People might not want to create an account because they perceive it (falsely, I know) as a loss of privacy. Or because they don't want to allow cookies on their machine. It's not a big deal. See Wikipedia:Welcome anonymous editing. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 16:22, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Second, the edit gets reverted because it is in a breezy, conversational style, not encyclopedic as it should be. See Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles especially the headings "What style to use" and "Use clear, precise and accurate terms". It adds more verbiage to an already lengthy article without adding more information. (Some of it is even wrong; drip coffee is not brewed "one drop at a time" for example.)

To put it in the bluntest terms possible, it's a low-quality contribution that doesn't improve the article at all. Since more than one person has reverted it, there's an excellent probability that this is a consensus position. Please leave it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:29, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree, and I'll add, if this is an exercise to point out that there is some other less-than-stellar ("fruity", I believe the anon said) writing in the article, then it is misguided. See WP:POINT. We know the article isn't perfect and hope to see it improved. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 21:55, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Okay, so I guess you both agree that the article should be more professional in tone. Therefore, I have made some changes that remove the "breeziness" of the version you prefer. I hope you like it. 148.104.5.2 22:51, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
If you'd done something more like this in the first place, your contributions would have been welcome from the beginning. Instead you chose to be obnoxious. Of course the article needs lots of work. Both Bunchofgrapes and I objected to FAC status on that ground. It was not a point that needed to be made, and certainly not by the method you used. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:01, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
All I did was give it "more of the same". It was already breezy. I made it more breezy and suddenly I'm a vandal? Who put in such bizarre lines as "perhaps with sugar"? If you're going to copy and paste a cutesy coffee guide into Wikipedia, at least try to cover it up a little. ("you" in the generic sense, no you personally, in case you were about to invent another grievance against me) 148.104.5.2 18:03, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Edits which make bad writing worse are bad. Edits which make bad writing better are good. Edits which make bad writing deliberately worse are in bad faith and border on vandalism. But this is obvious. What is your point here, really? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 19:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Looks fine to me, except maybe for the change from frothed to whipped milk, a factual change of which I am not sure. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:07, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
They're basically the same. "Frothed" is more of a term you'd use in advertising to make it seem "rich and dreamy" ... I think it borders on POV, plus it leaves ambiguous how it became frothed. 148.104.5.2 18:03, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I'd have said the opposite. "Whipped" sounds richer than "frothed"; it reminds one of whipped cream. You could call it whipped, since one method of whipping milk (or cream) is to inject gas into it, but hot water vapor is really suboptimal for this purpose -- it works best when the milk is cold -- and it normally isn't done long enough to properly whip the milk anyway. Something like one of those plunger-type milk "frothers" does the trick, but from what I've seen it generally gives you something thicker than what you get at the coffeehouse. If someone has a different experience of this, it'd be worth discussing. TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:36, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
"Frothed" and "whipped" are utterly distinct for the purposes of this discussion. Frothing is done by injecting a pressurized stream of steam into the milk. Whipping is done by hand or machine, usually with a whisk. Vassyana 23:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The cafe

Any objections if I cut this section? I don't really see how it belongs here, and coffeehouse adequately covers the subject. Is anything more than a link in the "See also" section called for? TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:59, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Agree. And I don't think it needs a see also link. A link to coffeehouse can fit somewhere in the history section, if there isn't one already there. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 05:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I wouldn't like to see it cut altogether; the social aspect of coffee is important. We should either have a broader discussion of the social aspect, or follow Wikipedia: summary style and have a summary of the coffeehouse article and a "main article: Coffeehouse" link to it. Mark1 07:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I notice we have a seperate section called "Social aspects of coffee" which I think serves this purpose better. It's also better placed in the article and more focused; "The Cafe" goes into uses of the word that have nothing to do with coffee as such. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:13, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

It's tangential, but I don't like how the article describes the English speaker's cafe. In English, a cafe is more like the French variety except that alcoholic beverages are seldom or never sold. It is not a place to eat a meal, that's a cafeteria. Maybe there was a misunderstanding because of the way English speakers spell cafe (w/o an accent on the letter E), but now that this is clarified it should be changed; either for this article or a new one.

I have eaten many meals in a café. Gentgeen 21:36, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I've been wanting to cut this section for a while since as it stands it's mostly tangential, having little to do with the service of coffee as such. See my remarks above. Unless there's a strong objection, I'll do so before long. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:30, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Instant Coffee

An example sentence from the Instant Coffee section.

Opinions on instant coffee range from "intolerable imposter" through "reasonable alternative" to "better than the real thing", and in some areas of the world it is seen as a sophisticated beverage popular in the United States due to the fact that it was the norm in American homes until the 1980s.

There are many problems with the above sentence.

  1. It is too long and needs to be split into multiple parts. I would have done this myself, except for the next problem.
  2. The second half of the sentence makes it sound that because instant coffee was "the norm" in American homes until the 1980s it is the prevailing opinion in some parts of the World that:
    1. Instant coffee is sophisticated, and
    2. It is popular in the United States!
  3. At no point are any claims backed up with facts.

Suggested corrections.

  1. Split the sentence into multiple parts.
  2. Replace "the norm" with authoritative figures on the decline of instant coffee use in the United States.
  3. Establish that the higher consumption of instant coffee in coffee-exporting regions is due to people in those areas copying households in the United States, rather than the difference in price between instant coffee and brewed arabica coffee.

Most of this section is in need of similar rewrites. For example the first sentence reads "Instant and soluble coffee has been dried into soluble powder or granules...". So the instant coffee has been dried, rather than is the product of drying brewed coffee!

Preparation - Grinding

This article says "There are two methods of producing coffee grounds ready for brewing." Yet it shows 3 points which are bulleted. Grinding Chopping Pounding

Coffee does not adversely impact higher mental functions?

As a 4th year med student, I'd have to say that the idea, found in the following quote, that coffee does not adversely impact higher mental functions, is at the worst wrong and at the least quite misleading. If the idea is to say that it is a relatively benign stimulant compared to other illicit drugs, then perhaps it is just better to say something to that effect. "Because of the stimulant properties of coffee and because coffee does not adversely impact higher mental functions, coffee is strongly associated with white collar jobs and office workers."

I've otherwise enjoyed reading this article, although I am frustrated by coffee being referred to as a "bean" in popular reference. Although it is good to see it referred to as a seed in the article, I'm wondering if it would be good to point out that it is the pit of a fruit. Ok, if you have read this far, I thank you for your time. 71.57.95.49 (talk • contribs)

If you agree with this, please CITE sources that disprove its premise. I'm not sure why you disagree with the "bean" thing. The whole world calls it a bean; you may want to insert a comment that biologically it is not a bean. JFW | T@lk 15:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


Social aspects of coffee

I apologize. I am new to Wikipedia, and this is the first time I've engaged in childish "revert war" behavior. I have no excuse, except that I've not yet developed the social experience within this community to school myself yet. I will, in the future, got o discussion first.

That said, I *do* think the paragraph in question has some merit, and shouldn't be simply deleted. I would like some discussion on this matter before it goes away again. So far the only reason stated (in the rev comment) has to do with it being meaningless to anyone who doesn't watch American TV (as I understand it). I don't watch any of the shows mentioned, but recognise the thought there as a sort of "cultural literacy" issue, and therefore appropriate to Wikipedia. Scix 02:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the main reason I gave was that the paragraph was mostly about TV shows. To put it more precisely, it made a claim about a social trend which it then tried to support by citing a bunch of TV shows that took up most of the paragraph. This is an extremely unreliable and not terribly rigorous way of documenting social trends. When shows like Dynasty, Dallas, and Falcon Crest were popular, consider the completely inaccurate view of mainstream American society most non-Americans took from them. "It's true because I saw it in a sitcom" just doesn't work, I'm afraid.
At least, that's why I wanted it deleted. I have no idea why User:Malencontreux got rid of it in the first place, but I support his action.
Since we are left with no credible support for the claim that's made and no other sources are cited, this is not a paragraph that ought to be retained. If the claim is actually true (and it probably is) then there ought to be good documentation for it somewhere. So really, you're right but for the wrong reasons IMO. I'd sooner see it fixed than deleted myself, but I don't have any sources either. TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:08, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Decaf Coffee question.

Is there a point when decaf coffee can become caffinated again?

I suppose you could add No-Doz to it. But if you mean, will the caffeine magically reappear after it's been removed? No. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:54, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
You sure about this? Do you have any kind of evidence of such? I only mean to clarify. You see, I work for a company that tells us to change out the decaf coffee every 20 minutes or it cafinates again. I am not sure how this works, as it sounded bogus to me. Obviously the coffee becomes bitter (well, even more bitter, seeing as how our company coffee really sucks..)
I don't have evidence for this, but I don't need any. I have a basic education in chemistry and physics and I therefore don't believe in the spontaneous generation of matter, absent the rare miraculous event. The coffee that you brew had the caffeine removed a long time ago, before it was even roasted. Removed, note, not reacted into some other substance: the beans are steamed and then rinsed in a solvent that carries the caffeine away. See decaffeination. There is simply no way for the caffeine to return after brewing it. It's a silly idea. Perhaps someone at your work is trying to have a little fun with you.
It's always a good idea to change coffee out after 20 minutes or a half hour, but that's true whether it's decaffeinated or not. Good coffee gets noticeably stale after that time. TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:27, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Spoon Position

Clearly the spoon is misplaced. The handles of the cup and spoon need to point in the same direction, with the spoon on the other side of the cup! Kd4ttc 00:10, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Unclear

A study has shown that cafestol, a substance which is present in boiled coffee drinks, dramatically increases cholesterol levels, especially in women. Filtered coffee only contains trace amounts of cafestol. – define "boiled coffee drinks"; does it include instant coffee? MartinHagberg 20:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

There's an entire section in the article on preparing coffee by boiling. It would include Turkish and "cowboy" coffee. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:31, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
There is no need to define "boiled coffee drinks". The literal reading of the phrase is quite sufficient and clear. I fail to see how such a phrasing is in the least unclear. Addtionally, your question about instant coffee would only apply when using boiled water which is still near or at the boiling point. Instant coffee only requires hot water, not boiling. Vassyana 23:41, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I suspect -- although I do not know for sure since I haven't looked at the source for the study mentioned -- that the distinguishing factor here is that that coffee grounds are in contact with the boiling water for a relatively extended period. Compare to drip coffee where water at lower than boiling temperature is simply passed through once. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:23, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
From what I can gather by researching the issue, the time exposure is a factor not well studied. It seems to be a mostly academic question, since "single pass" methods using boiled water (such as traditional percolators) still contain the elevated levels of cafestol. Drip coffee's lower risks and higher benefits also derive from the use of paper filters, according to medical and scientific papers on the matter. (Presumably the paper filtration removes some harmful contents.) Vassyana 04:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Is the same true then for coffee made in a French press? If so, then this has nothing at all to do with "boiled" coffee as such because you brew in a press with water of the proper temperature, which should not be boiling, and it is indeed the paper filter. (There would also then be higher cafestol levels in drip coffee made with one of those permanent gold-plated filters, I would think.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:12, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Great questions and observations. I am taking the time to carefully read the sources before making any final statements. There seems to be a lot of discussion of paper filtration and temperature, but I am having difficulty locating sources discussing the differance between paper filter and metal filter drip coffee. French press coffee cafestol levels seem to be directly tied to temperature. I have found one source that states that are more harmful constituents in french press and electric percolators than drip coffee (unspecified filtration), but the source is non-academic and I am therefore wary of it. I will keep digging and get back on the topic. Vassyana 22:34, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Presentation

The descriptions of New Zealand "long black" and "flat white" are not entirely accurate: these terms both refer solely to certain espresso-based preparations. The closest US equivalent to "long black" is the so-called "Americano", but that is not exactly the same. A NZ barista could tell you the difference, presumably.

worlds strongest coffee

anyone know who has the strongest coffee in the world?

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