Talk:Coalition casualties in Afghanistan

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Rob van Doorn 20:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)== Chapters, structure, notes to this article ==

Maybe we can start a dicussion also about the overall structure of this article?

Much regards,

Contents

[edit] Recent Edits

Please list only Coalition casualties in Afghanistan. Recent edits have been including US soldiers killed elsewhere. While these deaths may be part of Op Enduring Freedom, they do not belong on this page. Motorfix 01:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

In regards to the removed South Korean death, I googled it, but there was not a single hit. Please use supplied link for reference.Motorfix 12:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I have added this page. If anyone wants to combine this into a Casualties in the 2001 Invasion of Afghanistan page like the Iraq one, or to put it on the main page, then go ahead. I just thought we should do a page on the coalition casualties as well. PBP, 4 November 2004

61 American soldiers have been removed from the count of 333 who have died in operation Enduring freedom puting the number 272. OK I will agree not including the 14 soldiers killed in operation OEF Horn of Africa,14 soldiers killed in operation OEF Philippines and 5 soldiers killed in operation OEF Guantanamo bay. But that leaves 28 more soldiers. I guess you removed the soldiers that were killed in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Bahrain, Jordan and in the Arabian sea. Well in that case we should remove also more than 50 soldiers that have been killed in the war in Iraq from that list because they were killed in these places too. C'mon man think. They were killed suporting the war in Afghanistan. OK I agree about the 33 in Africa, Cuba and the Pacific but these guys should be listed as killed in the war in Afghanistan. So let the number be 300 killed american soldiers OK? Also stop removing the South Korean soldier listed killed. If you want to confirm these than go to yahoo, search for afghanistan timeline january 2003 wikipedia then check the date january 28th, you will see a report about the accidental killing of a south korean soldier in Afghanistan, even his name and rank. If you don't belive me then here are the information: In the Bagram Air Base barracks north of Kabul, Afghanistan, South Korean army major Lee Kyu-sang shot and killed Captain Kim Hyo-sung. The captain had refused an order to speak quietly on the telephone. The call involved the leasing of construction equipment with some Afghans. Kyu-sang, who said he didn't know the gun was loaded, was arrested. That was january 28th 2003.The link is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_timeline_January_2003#January_28.2C_2003

Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability. Using another wikipedia page doesn't count as a source either.

Motorfix 12:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


Listen Motorfix the information on the south-korean soldier must have been verified for it to be on a wikipedia page so stop removing him.Remove him if you ahve evidence that he didn't die.Also include the other 28 american soldiers killed in the war in Afghanistan that were killed elswhere in Asia. OK leave out those that were killed in Africa,the Philippines and Cuba but leave those that were killed in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Bahrain, Jordan and in the Arabian sea.

preceeding comment was made by User:89.216.229.112

I don't really see why the troops killed in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Jordan would be included, they're in a diffrent theater, are they not? I see some reasoning behind including deaths in Pakaistan and Uzbekistan as they are at least boardering Afghaninstan, and if the deaths in the Arabian Sea were on ships supporting the operations in Afghanistan I see a reasoning for that too. Why not include the larger number in the OEF article as opposed to here? Mike McGregor (Can) 14:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

At least more than 50 american soldiers have been listed as killed in the war in Iraq, but were killed in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, etc. If you don't want to list those 28 killed out of Afghanistan in the war in Afghanistan then don't list these in the war in Iraq. I mean c'mon guys. When the DoD identified them they specificly said if they were killed while supporting operation Enduring Freedom or Iraqi freedom. OK about those 33 killed in Cuba, Africa and the Philippines but these have to be included.

Maybe you guys should go to WP:ArbCom or ask for mediation to get this sorted out... on an aside, icasualties.org puts the number at 483 as of today... Mike McGregor (Can) 04:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

icasualties.org puts it at 483 because they include the 33 killed in Africa, Cuba and the Phillipines, I agree that they be counted as casualties in OEF Africa, OEF Phillipines and the 5 from Cuba don't be counted at all, but there is 28 killed in other arabic parts of Asia that should be counted as killed in the war in Afghanistan because they were supporting it in logistics and other things like 50 or so killed that are listed in the Iraq war but were not killed in Iraq.

Look...Read the title of the artical. It is not called casualties in Op enduring freedom, or Casualties In and around Afghanistan, or casualties in the Afghanistan war. It is coalition casualties in Afghanistan. Please read other conversations. We have already agreed on the source. Most of the coalition is only in Afghanistan! The source we are using as ref is http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf. Also, please cite a non wikipedia source for the South Korean...if you can. Motorfix 02:37, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Official casualties number

Please check [1] before updating this page.Copperchair 28 June 2005 20:48 (UTC)

No. We should use the DoD page [2] for a number of reasons. It is the official count, and lists those killed in combat, in accidents, etc. The CNN page does not, it only lists how many killed. There is a second section to the article detailing this that should be updated as well, in addition to just the numbers.
I have also noticed, Copperchair, that you keep reverting the number of Germans killed to 14. The number is 16, as two days ago, two Germans were killed in an accidental explosion[3], bringing their total dead to 16. I've noted this in the history section of this article. The CNN page HAS NOT been updated to account for the German deaths, but I think it will soon. I am making the changes again--trust me, I have the correct figures. We just need a little coordination here. PBP 4:52 PM, June 28, 2005


All right, I'll trust you on the WIA, but the DoD page does not specify the number of non-Americans killed, so there is no official number of those servicemen killed after June 22. Copperchair 29 June 2005 05:05 (UTC)

I'm going to try an avoid an edit war on this, so I'm going to list to you the German casualties. You can find them on the CNN site, if you look: March 6, 2002: 2 soldiers killed in accidental explosion. December 21, 2002: 7 soldiers killed in helicopter crash. May 29, 2003: 1 Soldier killed in mine blast. June 7, 2003: 4 soldiers killed by car bomb. That number is 14. On JUNE 26, 2 more Germans died in an accidental explosion [4], raising the toll to 16. THE CNN PAGE HAS NOT BEEN UPDATED. PBP, 29 June 2005.

The CNN page was updated today. You were right about German casualties. I have only edited the date now. I also updated (with the same figures) the Operation Enduring Freedom casualties section. Copperchair 30 June 2005 02:22 (UTC)

Today the CNN page counts 211 American soldiers dead (as of June 30, and the DoD page counts only 195 (as of July 1). I've updated it to the earlier, then. Copperchair 2 July 2005 04:47 (UTC)

Just to word of advice, Copperchair--don't update the date every time the CNN or the DOD site do. Just change the date when the casualty numbers change. It saves you the hassle of updating it every day. PBP 7 July 2005 6:51

[edit] Dispute

OK, I have put in for third party help on this: for about two months, there's been a constant edit war over these figures. Whenever a casualty is announced, I add it to the figures available. However, another editor only wants to put the figures up when they are listed on an external web page, such as the ones under "External Links". For instance, today, an American soldier was killed by a bomb in Afghanistan. I added it to the current figures. However, this other editor will likely revert the page and say we should only add the death once the DoD casualty page has updated. Those pages take days to update, and when they do, they end up validating my figures anyway. I have tried to explain this, but to no avail.

Also, he does not seem to believe there have been 17 German deaths in Afghanistan, though I have provided evidence that there, in fact, have been 17 deaths. Any outside opinions/help on these sticking points would be appreciated.PBP 13:40, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, that this is probably not the answer you prefer, but I think it would be best to get such running totals from an external source. That way they are more easily verifiable. In other words, I disagree with PBP. I have no comment on the German deaths, other than evidence is evidence. Maurreen (talk) 07:53, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

It possibly has been resolved, as the editor in question has not updated this site for days. What I tried to do with this page was to create something not unlike the one at Icasualties.org [5], but focusing on Afghanistan. Since Icasualties does not list coalition deaths in Afghanistan, I researched the hostile/non-hostile deaths myself. There is no external source that breaks up the American/coalition deaths in hostile/non-hostile categories, other than this page, so it is impossible to update that part using another source.PBP 14:09, 31 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Question of names

The April 22, 2006, incident included the names of just two of the four killed: (Bombardier Myles Mansell of the 5th British Columbia Field Regiment RCA, and Lt. William Turner of Land Force Western Area Headquarters). I removed this bit, as it didn't seem NPOV or fair to name only half of the men. I added an internal link -- [| here ] -- that includes the other names. I personally have no big problem listing all four, but I think we should be consistent. PLEASE PLEASE note that Wikipedia includes individual entries on many of these folks, so if we include the names we ought to verify whether there are any internal entries.--Thatnewguy 22:53, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Numbers debate

The May 5 Italian attack may have "only" killed two and wounded four. I can't find a reference that says it was three, though I'm certainly aware that one of the wounded could have died later, creating the stated three-three number. This needs a cite. --Thatnewguy 23:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The Aug. 21 entry originally said fewer soldiers were wounded. I found a citation. Please let's cite our sources and keep this straight. --Thatnewguy 23:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

Ugh!! This artical leaves a bad taste...needs a rewrite. Motorfix 14:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Check out Canadian Forces casualties in Afghanistan. Would that format (ie the table) be viable here? perhaps broken down by nationality (at least for the countries with higher casualties)? I think the problem is the haphazard way that some incidents are selected to be outlined in the article while many more are not. should we develop some guidelines regarding which incidents to include in the article? Mike McGregor (Can) 12:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Steve Reich (Army) redirects here — why?

Steve Reich (Army) redirects here, but I see no reference to him in the article. What's up with that? Omphaloscope talk 16:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pat Tillman

Surprised nobody's included him here. Will do later, if nobody else gets around to it. Soren.harward 22:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Comment

Please provide assiatance to resolve the currenty edit war.Motorfix 16:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Could you both (all?) explaine what your criteria is for inclusion on this page and also let us know what your using for refrences? Mike McGregor (Can) 17:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Hi Mike, I think that we should use this link from the Defense Department:Defense Department Casualty Page. The title of the artical is clear, and my intent is to include soldiers killed in Afghanistan, but not Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Bahrain, Jordan and in the Arabian sea as suggested by others.

Lets put it this way: If we were counting soldiers killed in lets say France during World War 2, would you include soldiers killed over the English channel,in Holland, Belgium, and Italy? anyways, I think i'm okay as for as NPOV. cheers, Motorfix 18:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Is there a particular source or sources that differentiates between casualties within Afghanistan and casualties occurring outside country? In short, what refrence is your count based on? Mike McGregor (Can) 07:05, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi Mike, If you take a quick look through the discussions above, especially the "DISPUTE" discussion from 2005, there was a consensus to use the Defense Department list. There is only one user who keeps changing it. If you are asking what source the defense department uses to keep track, I have not the slightest clue.Motorfix 16:14, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
oh, ok. I was confused. I thought that part of your comment was a response from the other fellow (who never signs his comments) and the paragraph below was your entire comment... Now I gets it! Mike McGregor (Can) 18:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I came from the RFC. I agree that you should only state the deaths that happened in Afghanistan. After all, that is the title of the article. If the person who is editing in the other deaths is heart -set on including them (and I am assuming good faith), please mention the deaths in a separate statement, specifically declaring "x number of coalition casualties occurred in places other than Afghanistan including ____, ____, and ____.", or something to that effect. --Connor K. 21:20, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Another RfC - I agree with Connor K. above. Casualties outside of Afghanistan in an article whose title makes it clear is about casualties in Afghanistan are clearly redundant to the article. A statement to the effect of "For casualties of Operation: Enduring Freedom outside of Afghanistan, please see that article" or some such comment could be inserted to refer to the casualties outside of Afghanistan, though. Badbilltucker 21:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Since we have a reliable source which tracks casualties within Afghanistan we should use that as the title and intent of the article is clear. That being said, I would also like to see coalition casualties occuring in transit to and from Afghanistan (such as the Spanish soldiers killed in the 2003 air-crash in Turkey), as well as in operations with a direct affect on the Taliban/al-Qaeda (such as Pakistani casualties) included in a seperate section or another article linked off this article. Mike McGregor (Can) 18:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Other Sources


http://www.jihadunspun.com/newsarchive/

http://www.jihadunspun.com/articles/08212002-Casualty.Report/casualty02.html


From October 21, 2001, Jihad Unspun staff and researchers began tracking military casualties in the US war on “terrorism” campaign in Afghanistan from approximately 40 international news sources daily. Although limited information on the extent of casualties suffered in Afghanistan by US and Coalition troops has appeared in main stream North American press, this has not been the case in other parts of the globe. This report documents our research.

Source material has been gathered from mainstream and uncensored news sources. Only those reports that could be verified in more than one source are included here. When casualties or kills were listed as “several soldiers wounded” they were excluded. As the counts come only from those that actually found there way into the press, we expect the actually figures to be as much as three times higher that those listed here.


What this report clearly shows is the censorship of the American media and the reports issued by the Pentagon. Rena Golden, the executive vice-president and general manager of CNN International said at a Newsworld conference is Asia that US news organizations “censored” their coverage of the US campaign in Afghanistan in order to be in step with public opinion in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks was shaped by the level of public support that existed for US action.

This report is not to be misconstrued as an official casualty count as it shows only figures reported in the 40 daily news sources Jihad Unspun monitors however it should be noted that the totals concluded here are significantly higher than those presented by the media within North America. Although we can not conclude with 100% accuracy the validity of any news item, this report begins to show a broader picture of casualties as reported throughout the globe and helps us to put into perspective the human cost of this war.

The US & Coalition Casualties Report has been independently audited by TREK Technologies Inc., a third party market research firm, to add further validity to this work.

It should be noted that this research began after Operation Enduring Freedom in the mountains of Afghanistan and therefore is not a complete accounting from the beginning of the Afghan invasion.

In our first limited distribution of this report a few weeks ago, we received many inquiries from American citizens who questioned how these deaths could be hidden from the public. As one General said “the first casualty of war is the truth” and casualties have been kept from the public in every war since WW1. How? Missing In Action. By the end of the Vietnam war there where some 70,000 MIA’s, with only a small portion of those accounted for to this day. We owe our understanding of the human cost of Vietnam to the families of soldiers who pressed for the declassification of documents and finally, years later, at least a portion of the truth was exposed. This is standard war time procedure that lawmakers consider to be in the best interest of national security.

This conclusion that can be drawn from this report is that the deaths of both US and Coalition soldiers are significantly higher than the public is being made aware of and therefore the willingness to continue the America war effort to new theatres such as Iraq is being orchestrated under false pretenses.

For more information contact: report@jihadunspun.net

http://www.jihadunspun.com/articles/08212002-Casualty.Report/casualty02.html

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